the reds

[endplay]

I saw the arrows at Weston s Mares combined air and armed forces day. Have to say it was the best display I've ever seen them do. Fantastic weather helped but the show was outstanding.

[cokecan]

it goes against everything i stand for to say anything nice about the ill-mannered, grey slip-on shoe wearing chavs of the RAF, but the reds were fcuking amazing on saturday...:ok:

the AAC Lynx display was the dogs danglies, utterly brilliant - and much as i wouldn't want to cause strife between the services - the Navy Lynx wasn't half as good a display.. pity the wokka was only a flypast, but the Canbera was wonderfully noisy.

something pointy and very noisy required for next year methinks - some GR4's 3ft above the water, a very hard pull-up and lots of flares?

[pohm1]

One thing you can say for the ill-mannered, grey slip-on shoe wearing chavs of the RAF, is that they know that sentences and the days of the week begin with a capital letter. :ugh:

P1

[Clockwork Mouse]

Only seen them display on video so far this year, Portsmouth, Gilze and Karup, but it certainly looks a cracking show, befitting the 50th season. Just hope the engineering COC can keep them in enough serviceable jets. Red 10 was stranded in Bristol and has just made it back for the Estonia push.

[tomahawk_pa38]

How much longer will they be using the Hawk then and any thoughts on what they'll use after if they're still about ? I would have thought someon must be thinking ahead by now but as I'm not military you might know better.

[Genstabler]

The Hawk T1 has a few years left in it but if and when it is replaced in the RAFAT depends on budgets, affordability, public perception, political will and commercial sponsorship. BAe are apparently developing an austere version of the Hawk T2 as an aerobatic jet for a couple of overseas customers, including (I think) India and possibly Saudi. It would be nice for everyone if BAe could do a favourable deal for the RAF on the back of that.

It would be very sad if the Reds ceased to be, but their cost effectiveness for UK PLC has to be justified and they should not be at the expense of an operational capability.

[Clockwork Mouse]

In today's Daily Telegraph.

By Harry Mount

On Armed Forces Day at the weekend, the Royal Regiment of Wales marched proudly through Cardiff, led by a goat called Siencyn.
Siencyn is the latest in a long line of regimental goats, dating back to the Crimean War. Goats were originally taken into battle to be eaten. But, after one Welsh goat woke up a Private Jenkins during guard duty in the Crimea, and alerted him to an enemy soldier, he was adopted as the regiment's mascot.
In cold, objective terms, Siencyn, and the Goat Major who looks after him, are essentially a waste of taxpayers' funds. But – in sentimental, spiritual and ceremonial terms – they are priceless.
You can say the same of Bill Millin, the bagpiper who piped Lord Lovat onto the beaches of Normandy 70 years ago last month. And you can say it in spades about the Red Arrows, who also appeared at the Armed Forces Day – in Stirling – and are also under the threat of extinction.
This week, their leader, Squadron Leader Jim Turner, said the Government only has four years to save the RAF display team, which is celebrating its 50th year in the skies. The current fleet of Hawk T1 jets is only expected to last until 2018 – and, as yet, there has been no guarantee of a replacement. Already, the present crop is showing its age.
Normally, I'm ferociously anti-government spending. At a time when the country is broke – and the national debt is rising – government money is still splurged all over the place with all the carelessness of anyone spending someone else's money. So much for austerity.
But the Red Arrows are different. Just as with Siencyn, their value is impossible to quantify; but it is enormous all the same.
Like Siencyn, they are a ceremonial quirk for the armed forces – and the public – to attach their loyalty and affection to. 32 years on, I still vividly remember seeing the Red Arrows at the British Grand Prix at Brands Hatch – they'll be flying over the Grand Prix at Silverstone again this weekend.
At the age of 10, I was far from being a military child – I was much more of a mini-petrolhead. But it is the swooping, climbing formation of nine planes, trailing red, white and blue smoke, that I remember now; much more than I remember Niki Lauda's victorious McLaren. Looking back at my photo album, I see that I took five pictures of the Red Arrows and only two of Niki Lauda.
You can't monetise – to use a horrible word – that sort of childhood memory. But, if that's what you want to do, it's worth its weight in gold as a recruitment device; and as one of the most robust strands of the web that binds a country's people to its armed forces. Let that web fall apart, and you let the country's national and international security fall apart.
The Red Arrows give more than just sentimental value. They may cost a lot more than Siencyn but they are also more cost-effective. Among the beneficiaries is the British aerospace industry. Which Saudi potentate – chequebook in hand, longing to top up his national airforce – could fail to be moved, as I was at Brands Hatch, by the Red Arrows' gravity-defying feats, performed with peerless precision and unity?
It doesn't take much to imagine those feats transferred to a warzone. As indeed they often are. All nine Red Arrows pilots are recruited from frontline RAF squadrons. And, once they've completed their three-year tour with the display team, they return to RAF duties.
If the Government axed the Red Arrows tomorrow, they would save a few million pounds. But it would be as cost-effective in the long run as killing the golden goose – or eating the regimental goat.

[Wander00]

That is a good piece of writing, and thinking. Thanks

[54Phan]

Agreed, Well put, Clockwork Mouse.

[Genstabler]

The new fins are absolutely stunning.

http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r787/turnermh/e7e49383353ef0856a70c508079ad595_zpsd552fde9.jpg

[strake]

As I struggle to write copy for a new website, I read Mr Mount's prosaic article above and realise how inadequate I am.
Lovely piece.

[Lima Juliet]

The new fins are absolutely stunning

No they're not, they're absolutely gopping! :yuk:

If nothing else they look like an advert for the Lying Scotsman (damn keyboard is missing its F key!) :ok:

[Squirrel 41]

Not sure about the tails, but can't wait to see them at Farnborough.....

S41

[Top West 50]

"Eating the Regimental goat" - wonderful!

[Wander00]

Reminds me of watching the "tethered goat" nerve agent film at Winterbourne Gunner. A Gunner half colonel leant across to the CO of a Welsh regiment -"Your goat, I think" he half whispered - outbreak of only half mock fisticuffs.

[aviate1138]

Watched their Goodwood Festival of Speed runs on big screen. Who was screaming the breaks/changes/smoke at near hysteria level? Didn't seem to enhance the display one iota.

[Genstabler]

When you're pulling 6 G and have micro seconds to miss the other bloke closing on you at 800 kts it must be hard to transmit in measured tones.

[ShotOne]

What a brilliant piece of writing from The Telegraph. Sums it up exactly

[Flap62]

Genstab,

It's got very little to do with G or closing speeds, they do it checking in and taxiing out. It is an appalling nasty little habit that they've had for years that does them no credit. For a bunch of very nice blokes (certainly the ones I know) who fly stunning displays it is a piece if unprofessionalism they could do without.

[BOAC]

Yes, I miss the measured tones of Ian Dick, Dickie D and Frank (RIP) Hoare.:)

[Genstabler]

Flap62
Sorry but you are wrong. They may perhaps have overdone it in the past while making routine calls but certainly not these days.
Jim Turner, the Boss, gives his calls in a very calm, measured cadence, the rhythm of which is a vital element for timely control responses. The synchros make their threshold calls while under high G, closing speeds of 800+kts and critical time pressure. They shout. So do the pilots calling safe on roll-backs etc.
Their calls are not a scripted part of the show. They are only audible to the spectators if Lingy chooses to broadcast his radio over the tannoy.
To describe it as an appalling nasty little habit and unprofessional reveals your ignorance of the detail of how FJ display teams operate. Unprofessional the Reds most certainly are not.

[Flap62]

Genstab,

Your opinion of course. Having had the great pleasure of flying in the back with them a few times (admittedly not recently) and only having 2000 odd hours FJ time I will have to bow to your obviously greater experience.

[Genstabler]

Flap62

I certainly cannot claim to match your experience of having flown fast jets and of having back seated in a Red's jet, albeit both some time ago. However, do not confuse experience, particularly if irrelevant, and knowledge. Furthermore your claim of experience makes your extraordinarily negative comments all the more deplorable.

[Easy Street]

I have flown with the Reds in the recent past and also have thousands of hours FJ. The calls do not need to be shouted, it's purely an affectation. Dragging the syllables out makes the calls less precise. I too wish they wouldn't do it.

[BOAC]

I think it 'crept in' with the Hawk. With the Gnat we didn't shout in case we frightened it.:)

[Flap62]

Genstab,

Given that I said [QUOTE][For a bunch of very nice blokes (certainly the ones I know) who fly stunning displays/QUOTE]mI I find it strange that you felt I was being outrageously negative.

Given some of the other comments by posters do you stand by your comments? I did not say the Reds were unprofessional, I said that their RT is often needlessly so. My view is that if you are the best (and it could be argued that they are), then you should operate in exactly the same manner that got you to that position. Their standard of RT is not seen anywhere else in the RAF for a very good reason.

I guess that you will not agree so I will leave it at that.

[BEagle]

Flap62 wrote: It's got very little to do with G or closing speeds, they do it checking in and taxiing out. It is an appalling nasty little habit that they've had for years that does them no credit.

Indeed. Those shrieks and yells during the formation landing were so puerile and embarrassing that we had to stop the PA broadcast at an air show once. We'd connected the AOR UHF receiver, a CD player and microphone to the PA amp and all was going quite nicely until that silly squealing nonsense that RAFAT do on final....

Will be listening out tomorrow when they do Silverstone....

[salad-dodger]

I think it 'crept in' with the Hawk. With the Gnat we didn't shout in case we frightened it.
Subtle. Not!

S-D

[Courtney Mil]

Something I've missed. What shrieking? An example perchance?

[Easy Street]

Example? Difficult to do on here, but here goes:

'Red Arrows check' 'TWO!' 'THREE!' 'FOUR!' 'FIIIIVVE!' [falsetto] 'SIIIX!!' 'SEVENNN!!!!' 'EIIIIIIGHT!!!!!' 'NIIIIINE!!!!' [\falsetto]

As indicated, it is most noticeable in the Gypo section, the guys who are in their second or third years, and is especially heard in the synchro section. 'THRESSSSHOOOLLLDD!'

To be fair to Red 1s, their R/T is always very smooth and good to listen to. 'Rolllllliiinnnngg IN....... hold the bank THERE...... TIGHTening...... letting it OUT..... rolllliinnngg OUT' etc.

[Clockwork Mouse]

OK BEagle, how did they do at Silverstone? Did they embarrass you with their shrieks and yells?

[Clockwork Mouse]

We'll take that as a no comment shall we?

[Clockwork Mouse]

"Their standard of RT is not seen anywhere else in the RAF for a very good reason".

Nor is their standard of flying.

[BOAC]

RE Posts 20/25, you can see how Gentleman Dicky and the boys did the R/T in '75.
BBC - Archive - Aerial Journeys - Go With Noakes | The Red Arrows (http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/aerialjourneys/5328.shtml)

[Brian 48nav]

BOAC - I'd forgotten you used to be so handsome ;) - great to see that again!

[BOAC]

Wot yer mean - "used to be..........";)

[WH904]

The play-back of the RT chatter during air shows is a questionable act. As some of the people who have posted here will know, it is done for a purpose, and not for dramatic effect, but whether it's a good idea to let the public hear it is debatable. On the other hand, I guess the kids probably think it's great?

Just as questionable is this year's commentary in which the Manager asks everyone to wave as the formation goes by. I suppose there's always a case for "dumbing-down" the commentary for the spectators but there are limits beyond which it becomes a tad toe-curling!

[Clockwork Mouse]

WH904

I get the impression from browsing through your previous posting history that your toes curl quite a lot. Have you tried a chiropodist?

[WH904]

Apologies, I'll try to vary my analogies in future

[RubiC Cube]

I took my grandchildren to see the Reds (and BBMF) at Cleethorpes yesterday, the first time I have seen a full Reds display in over 10 years. I was very impressed with the 25 minute display which included new routines (to me). The kids (9 and 11) were enthralled and now want to be pilots! As to the commentary, Lingy explained their cadence and if it works and keeps them safe, who am I to complain?

[thing]

Thanks for posting that BOAC, I remember virtually every scene in that and it must be nearly forty years since I last saw it!

The best Sparrows vid has to be the Arthur Gibson one. My son was one at the time and I'd just bought my first video recorder. It used to keep him spellbound while we got on with making the dinner or whatever. No he didn't finish up being a pilot; he lives in Brisbane and sells space on container ships...I would like to think there's a connection but I haven't found one yet...

Arthur Gibson: Red Arrows Promotional Video - Hawk [1980] - YouTube

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, now I see. You mean this...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11c6acUf5wA

How bloody stupid.

[bonajet]

It most certainly wasn't done that way in the 80s BOAC! Maybe it's the post Diana generation expressing their feelings.

[Steve the Pirate]

It sounds thuggish, quite frankly. I fail to see how such vocal gymnastics can be thought of as adding anything to the show. In fact, I think it detracts from the skill on display and makes the Team sound more like a bunch of chavs than a group of officers and gentlemen.

STP

[BOAC]

Indeed, thing - Arthur just had the 'Midas' touch with aerial photography. An amazing man.

[surely not]

I saw the Reds on the Sunday at RIAT and I cannot remember their vocals being obtrusive, but I can remember thinking how daft it was to suggest they would looking at the crowd to see if they were waving at them!

I hadn't seen them for a few years and having become quite blase about their older shows I found this years excellent. The new routines are original and eye catching. Well done lads