Flying outside the box

[tubby linton]

When I first started flying jet transport aircraft it was in a very unusual environment, namely the Berlin air corridors. We flew the aircraft at Vmo at low level often being pursued by the much faster PanAm 727s. We learned to fly the aircraft at its maximum speed envelope and the arrival at TGL often involved a truncated visual that would be called in this modern age unstable. We did this fairly frequently so we were actually quite practiced at it and able to manage the energy of the aircraft effectively and safely.
With the modern trend to operate an aircraft conservatively and in a narrow speed band is there any justification to teaching a line pilot what his aircraft is really capable of?

[captjns]

Ask your chief pilot, head of training, director of flight ops their positions of showing newbies flying "outside the box" with total disregard to approved profiles as contained in your FCOM and FCTM. Let us know how that works for you.:ok:.

I bet your company would feel a whole lot better if you exhibit proper disciplines with yoru crews and explain the importance of following SOPs rather than showing guys how good you may have been when flying for Pop Belkin's Flying Circus.

Remember... many new F/Os are still getting a grasp the four fundementals of flying. Better to concentrate on that for the time being.

[tubby linton]

I suppose that when I joined we all knew how to fly aeroplanes and it was only the outer edges of the known envelope that we were exploring. With the modern trend towards cadet pilots even the basics are still very fresh in their minds and for the mpl should be treated as boundaries.
I suppose you could compare it to being able to read and write and being able to compose a shakespearean tragedy.

[glendalegoon]

dear OP


I agree with you.


Any pilot should be able to get the max, flight envelope approved, performance out of a plane.

In short: Fly like an old lady to stay out of trouble.

BUT

if you get into trouble be able to fly like a tiger to get out of trouble.

[tubby linton]

Captjns under your regime we have the AF scenario whereby all your pilots are rule driven and inexperienced that when they are confronted with something outside the box then they cannot deal it.
It is interesting to note that when Airbus have a new type the initial sortie is flown is direct law until the fbw laws have been proved. If you can fly a circuit in direct law then you can fly the basic aircraft and everything above this is merely making your life easy..

[Intruder]

The most common "outside the box" scenario given in our sim sessions is a cargo fire on rotation. The 'game' is to get the airplane back on deck and stopped on the runway as quickly as possible. It's a good exercise in low-speed maneuvering and judgement.

[parabellum]

I too used fly the BAC1-11 down the corridor. It was a competition, select the correct TOD in order to cross the HLG VOR, (entrance to the corridor abeam Hannover), levelling at assigned height or level, at about one or two knots lower than the high speed warning! Next day the other pilot had his go. Next part of the competition, maintain high speed as long as possible in order to take the power off and not touch it before 500', the height at which we had to be stabilised on final approach.


Do that a few times and you start to feel you are getting to know your aircraft and would certainly have more confidence if things started to go wrong at anytime.

[Piltdown Man]

It all depends on how capable and able you want your pilots to be. Unfortunately, every company wants skilful pilots but most are not prepared to spend enough to achieve their goals. Then, just to make sure their pilots don't practice on the line, they implement an FDM program. The net result is that you end up with pilots found lacking at precise moment nifty flying skills are required. Fortunately, these moments are few and far between so the penny-pinchers are winning. They can demonstrate how much they have saved - until of course something goes wrong. Then, we'll have a knee jerk reaction and fill in the skill blanks with more training.

[Amadis of Gaul]

I'm not sure flying at Vmo at low altitude and shooting "unstable" approaches is necessarily "outside the envelope" or indicative of some superior pilot skill. Now, if the OP would like to try flying sideways, inverted at Vmo+110 all the while maintaining a perfect glideslope, then he'd have my attention.

[Natstrackalpha]

Nice.


Speaking to a senior . . colleague. . . the other day, we spoke of an approach - being kept high by ATC.


23 miles 13000 feet.


Speed back to below gear limiting speed - full speedbrake, gear down descend to final approach profile, high rate of descent - with - nothing on OCL/OCH to conflict -


In the same conversation I was able to ask my cherry of a question -


. . .in a selected go around - pin the speed to 190 with Flaps 1 if for a tight circuit to come back onto finals on profile - ?


the answer was yes but he would have selected 180 - generally speaking - subject to WAT of course and others.


En general again: re: noise - Can one safely assume that hard climbs are noisy, shallow climbs are noisy if accelerating hard and therefore the quietest would be a shallow climb say 1,000fpm at an optimum airspeed say, 200 and that the same at 180 would be noisier - just a noisy question about noise - not about the ideal profile SOPs etc. A mere technical question.


There could be a course of Outside the box flying but then you need to teach it to people who have the common sense to know when to use it and not abuse it. Experience usually leads you there.


It would be interesting - life at Vne - or so slow you are off the clock - but not stalled(?)-(or descending) indeed the Chandelle from reciprocal heading to put you back on finals (irritates the tower though) To slip - (sigh) you can pick up a really nice radial without ever changing heading -


Where have all the cloud breaks gone?


How DO you guarantee a nice intercept of the jolly Glideslope when you DO intercept from above, not being false here.


Flying a nice tight circuit . . .(circle to land?) while all the pax are still nicely dozing.


You have to wear the aircraft like your jacket - a certain orange coloured airline in the greenest nice parts of Europe take their Studes (base training) up to 28,000 - 35,000 and swan around all afternoon letting them get used to "flying" at those levels. It is a very pretty sight to watch - creative contrails as a result.

[+TSRA]

I bet your company would feel a whole lot better if you exhibit proper disciplines with yoru crews and explain the importance of following SOPs rather than showing guys how good you may have been when flying for Pop Belkin's Flying Circus.

Do you forget the first line in almost every SOP that states (paraphrasing) the SOP cannot cover all circumstances, and therefore the pilot will be required to use their piloting technique and good decision making? In those, far and few between, circumstances knowing the full ability of the aircraft may make the difference between your passengers having a ride but being alive, or having a smooth ride and ending up in a smoking hole in the ground.

People who preach that the SOP's are the only way to fly the aircraft often forget that, sometimes, the airplane doesn't want to play the SOP game. That, or they've never actually gotten themselves into a situation where strict adherence to the SOP's could have killed them.

I'd rather be at home with my wife and kids than be known as the pilot who "flew the SOP's to the ground" rather than flying the airplane.

This being typed by a guy who writes, teaches and monitors for compliance of SOP's at a company which is teaching our pilots to become pilots again and to realize that SOP's are a tool, not a crutch.

[latetonite]

The news is that the latest generation of pilots are not restrained by SOP's : They know nothing else, and cannot fly outside this box. Horrifying, scaring, and extremely boring.

[glendalegoon]

Do any new type pilots know how to slip?

or

Chandelle?

Or follow power lines to either a city or a power plant?

Or if they were following railroad tracks, have enough sense to climb before going into a tunnel

[latetonite]

Or aerobatics?

[exeng]

I do sort of see where you are coming from. However:

The days of the BAC 111, Trident etc are well and truly gone. Never flew those types but were friends with many who did. Flown all 737 types as well as slightly more exotic types like the awful buses, 777 and 757

The 737-200 I flew was not the same, but similar in approach performance as your 111 - in other words a brick. On the 200 you could 'get in' from an approach that on modern aircraft would be virtually impossible.

So these days flying to edge of a stable approach is something we do at all times in order to carry out a CDA.

You just cannot do the kind of approaches you did on the aircraft you flew because today's aircraft have a much lower drag factor.

[latetonite]

Hope you are not serious.