which holding point side?

[n.dave]

After landing on r/w27 at Liverpool. I was told to vacate r/w, hold at F and contact Ground by Tower. My initial action is to pass holding point F, hold position and contact Ground for further taxi instructions. However, my instructor told me that i must remain on the r/w side of holding point f, contact Ground for further instructions. His reason is we don't have Ground permission. My reason is we have to vacate the r/w so that we don't clogged up the traffic and that's why Tower request us to vacate.
I am slightly puzzled as I have been doing this very often in the past on my own without any troubles. Any person experience this situation or have better answers?

Kind regards,
N.dave

[Ed Set]

The runway is not vacated until you have crossed the holding pont markinglines

[n.dave]

Ed Set

That was my point.

[Packer27L]

If in doubt, question it on the R/T. Based on your post, it sounds like an ambigious instruction from Tower. Was there traffic on A?

[Talkdownman]

which holding point side?
The taxiway side.

I was told to vacate r/w, hold at F and contact Ground
Vacate-Hold-Contact.

Vacate: The RET is part of the cleared and graded area of the runway. Until you have crossed the lines you are on the runway. Cross the lines to vacate.

Hold: The F Hold is on the taxiway side of the holding point lines. Hold there. No different to when one holds for departure except one is facing in the opposite direction.

Contact: Simple, and await further instructions. The GMC controller will be anticipating what the Tower told you and will have built in provision for that. Air controllers coordinate with Ground controllers, whether it's one-off coordination or a 'standing agreement'. Any pilot on Taxiway Alpha should give way to aircraft vacating in order to maximise runway utilisation and minimise conflict.

My initial action is to pass holding point F, hold position and contact Ground for further taxi instructions
You are correct. Your instructor is wrong. In fact I think he is crazy. Does he stop half-way down motorway slip-roads? Suggest that he visits a control tower.

[baby737]

Please check your pm's

[n.dave]

Thank you. I have phoned Liverpool atc and was told to pass the markings and then change frequency to gnd.

n.dave

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

From an ATC viewpoint.... the Tower and Ground controllers should liaise so the aircraft might be told to "vacate and follow xxx from your right", or similar.

[DaveReidUK]

No different to when one holds for departure except one is facing in the opposite direction.I'd have thought that there was a lot of difference.

Instead of holding so that your nose (which you can see) is short of markings on the ground (which you can also see as you approach them), you would be trying to judge when the tail of your aircraft (which you can't see) has passed over and is clear of markings that you can no longer see.

And the markings themselves indicate that the requirement not to proceed without clearance only applies if you are approaching facing the solid lines i.e. heading towards the runway.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/images/ft_magazine/2010/october/1010where3.jpg

[zonoma]

Talkdownman - when you exit a motorway, go up the sliproad, do you stop just short of the doubledashed lines, or cross them until your back bumper has just cleared them and then wait to proceed?

I can see where confusion exists here, if aircraft are being told to vacate the runway AND hold at F, but by holding at F they cannot physically be runway vacated, then this needs highlighting to Liverpool ATC so the procedure can be reviewed and amended.

[chevvron]

n.dave: give yourself a gold star for doing the correct thing and asking ATC!
Zonoma: at an airfield with ATC and IFR procedures, as talkdownman says, you have not deemed to have vacated the runway until you have passed the holding point.

[Talkdownman]

when you exit a motorway, go up the sliproad, do you stop just short of the doubledashed lines, or cross them until your back bumper has just cleared them and then wait to proceed?
Uncontrolled environment, so slight difference… ;)

[Cows getting bigger]

TDM has it right. Your instructor needs to brush-up on his air law.

[DaveReidUK]

Your instructor needs to brush-up on his air law.Actually in this particular instance the instructor and ATC may have a point, after all.

Granted, the stop-bar at F has no significance for aircraft turning off the runway so, in the absence of any instruction to the contrary, an aircraft can pass it without requiring clearance.

But there's no reason I can see why ATC shouldn't be allowed to use it as a point of reference in a holding instruction. The stop-bar is sufficiently far along the taxiway in question that any aircraft smaller than, say, a 747/A380 stopping with its nose over the stop-bar would already be well clear of the runway.

So the two instructions to vacate the runway and stop at (i.e. hold short of) the F stop-bar are not incompatible. Particularly given the fact that, as per this thread from a few years ago

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/299568-uk-definition-runway-vacated.html

there seems to be no formal definition, in the UK at least, of "runway vacated".

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Granted, the stop-bar at F has no significance for aircraft turning off the runway so, in the absence of any instruction to the contrary, an aircraft can pass it without requiring clearance.>>

Just in case anyone gets confused. At major airfields employing the reds and greens system, aircraft must not cross a red stop bar without ATC clearance.

[Cows getting bigger]

Dave R, I did start looking at Doc 4444 Ch 5, 8168 Ch 7 and a few others but became quickly bored when I was trying to figure whether Liverpool was a 4E or 4F with the associated 107.5m or 137m protected area..

Lets look at this another way:

If you landed and were told to vacate and hold at F, where would you stop? Would you be mindful of Tenerife?

Equally, if you taxied prior to departure and were told to hold at F, where would you hold? Would it be the runway side of the line?

As far as I can see the UK hasn't filed any differences against ICAO SARPs here so I think it reasonable that the world expects us to be runway vacated once we have crossed the line; in other words we are not runway vacated until we have crossed the line. Consequently, the sensible thing to do would be to cross the line unless you have been specifically instructed to hold short and in this circumstance you still occupy the runway environment.

[chevvron]

If Liverpool do this on a regular basis they should paint an 'intermediate' holding point line at 'F' ie a single dotted line across the RET 'protecting' the main taxiway.

[DaveReidUK]

if you taxied prior to departure and were told to hold at F, where would you hold? Would it be the runway side of the line?No of course not. That would be ridiculous.

If you're going to define where an aircraft should stop/hold by reference to a line painted across a taxiway, then doesn't that imply that you expect the holding aircraft not to cross the aforesaid line? Or am I missing something?

[Cows getting bigger]

I think the point you're missing (and we're relying on the account of the first poster) is that the aircraft was told to "vacate the runway and hold at F". In ICAO land you haven't vacated the runway until you have crossed the line. The UK doesn't appear to have taken a different stance and there was no specific instruction from Liverpool (verbal or additional line) to hold short of F.

Doing the Math (my wife is from that part of the world) the protected area for the runway at Liverpool should be in the region of 107.5-137m. Google Earth indicates that the distance from runway centreline to holding point is about 100-110m.

It is clear that holding runway side of the line encroaches on the protected area of the runway and is unsafe, theoretically. Consequently, if ATC really wanted the aircraft to hold short of F they should have made this quite clear. Personally, if there was any thought of a jet A1 guzzling monster steaming down a mile and a half of concrete behind me I would have ignored the instruction and got to the right side of the line, arguing afterwards.

[spacemonkeys]

The procedure to vacate and hold at F comes about most often from light aircraft landing on 27 then requiring the short taxi to the ga apron. Anything bigger than a pa28 would take more runway to stop and vacate at E. Liverpool are generally quite good and the ground controller is waiting with your taxi instructions by the time you call them. Being told by Tower to hold only really comes about if they have Jet traffic taxiing down A to 27, they are generally given priority over light aircraft so a light aircraft being told, hold short of A could potentially end up too close, hold at F gives a bit more clearance for them to pass. Anybody vacating via E could be told to stop at A6 for example allowing the jets to go ahead. I agree though the procedure via F is ambiguous and could be better.

[zonoma]

TDM - good response!

I am confused still by the responses, being non-airport controller (but had a few months experience as you did), I cannot see how this instruction can be issued. As HD says, you don't cross a red stop bar, from what I can decipher, F isn't a red stop bar, but if you are to hold there, how much confusion (especially with non-based pilots) must there be with this instruction to hold there? Normal instructions to "hold at ##" means taxy but do not cross. Too ambiguous for me, can someone explain exactly why the instruction issued is correct?

Zon