Bomber pilot helped land airliner after captain fell ill

[Airbubba]

Bomber pilot helped land airliner after captain fell ill - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/travel/737-emergency-pilot/index.html)

[Caygill]

I believe this is the original piece of writing: http://www.afspc.af.mil/news1/story.asp?id=123412412

[ettore]

Nice "good night story" by the U.S. army, thanks. BtW, is there any rule since 9/11 forbidding anyone else but crew on duty to enter the flight deck?
Just asking...:D

[flyboyike]

Never mind that, I wanna know how old that heart attack person was.

[Dash8driver1312]

In all cases, access only to crew, and other people on captain's prerogative. Or first officer's if the captain is otherwise occupied.

[st7860]

I wonder what went through the first officers mind when the person replied to what do you fly with the words "B1-B"


"After they moved the pilot, I was asked by the first officer, 'are you a pilot,' which was quickly followed with 'what do you fly,'" said Gongol. "I knew she was in a serious situation and that question gave her five seconds to judge if I would be useful. I also had about five seconds to asses her, 'was she panicking, or was she OK to fly the aircraft?' We both finished our silent assessments, she made the right judgment and told me to close the door and have a seat.""

[currawong]

"she had never taxied a 737 before"

WTF????

[500N]

I noticed that and was wondering the same thing.

[archae86]

she had never taxied a 737 before
I'm not a pilot, but think I've learned that most 737s are delivered with the tiller used for nose-wheel steering installed in a place where only the left-seat occupant can reasonably reach it.

Are there airlines where first officers get a familiarization exposure to taxi operation, "just in case", or is it common for first officers in types lacking right-side tillers to lack taxi experience?

[Oxidant]

"she had never taxied a 737 before"

Not uncommon at all.
Most of the 737s & 757s I flew only had a tiller on the captains side.

[glendalegoon]

look, its like this.

the F/O most certainly could have landed the plane without aid. current CRM thinking is to use all available resources to ensure the safe outcome of a flight, especially in an emergency. (crew illness is an emergency)

a request for another pilot is prudent.

as to taxiing. the first officer can easily control the plane on the runway with the rudder pedals which actuates nosewheel steering.

but the amount of nosewheel steering in this manner is somewhat limited and might prove insufficient for tight turns into parking/gate area (apron or ramp, not TARMAC).

it would be normal for the F/O to continue to fly the plane from the right seat to landing. after the plane was safely stopped on the runway, a decision based on available resources is the prudent way to act.

portable stairs for the paramedics to meet the plane on the runway and a quick shutdown of the number one engine (port) would get medical help to the ill person the quickest.

after the medical help had taken care of the ill person, a decision to move the plane would be made.

either:

wait for a tug (most prudent, except for time)

start the engine again and have the person in the left seat taxi the aircraft (the copilot could switch seats) or allow the acting pilot in the left seat to handle the controls (not what I would do). go to the gate.

There is a possibility that the plane went straight to the gate for medical help in which case taxiing by the first officer in the right seat would be prudent, allowing for the temp/acting pilot in the left seat to use the tiller in tight places.

Remember, many gates have a straight in approach for some distance and it could be handled by rudder pedal steering.

details would be helpful.

[MarkerInbound]

If you're the F/O on an airplane that lacks a tiller on the right side your normal duties would not include taxiing the aircraft. Therefore there's not going to be any taxi training.

[formulaben]

Glendalegoon, is it really that arduous to put a capital letter at the beginning of each sentence? :suspect:

[India Four Two]

The article is Post No. 2 states that the FO changed seats to taxi.

[stilton]

I wouldn't let anyone I didn't know personally and professionally into the cockpit anymore.



Not that big a deal to divert and land by your self in a modern two pilot aircraft and I don't see how much help a B1 pilot would be even if he was able to 'assess' the remaining crew member :rolleyes:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

start the engine again and have the person in the left seat taxi the aircraft



Yeah, or just taxi on one engine:rolleyes:

[A and C]

So why can't the FO taxi the aircraft with the rudder fine steering and a little differential braking & thrust ?

You might not want to park on a terminal gate line that but you can get it off the runway and on to a parking area.

[Denti]

You can get off the runway if there are high speed exits, 90° or tighter turns are pretty much out of the question in my experience. And yes, in years gone by we could do complete role reversals on the 737 which included taxying by the FO as far as it was possible. However to be honest in pretty much every turn the captain had to help with the tiller because those turns would have been impossible to do with the other means available.

From the second link posted it appears to have been a very professional work of all parties in that incident, well done by all concerned.

[BOAC]

Poor co-pilot! The armchair quarterbacks are out in force. End of. I reckon the chances of Al Q waiting for the Captain to have a heart attack and then obtaining f/deck entry are not high, personally, but some obviously feel worried.

I reckon having a second living human being with you would be a significant help in a very stressful and disturbing situation. My vote is well done both. We have a safe result and a good stab at 'CRM'.

[Tourist]

Stilton.

If you cannot see what a military pilot used to a high workload environment could bring to the situation then you are either hard of thinking or chippy about ex military.

[S76Heavy]

Job well done, I say. This is what CRM is really about; using all resources available to the max. Including the less obvious ones.

[Jakdaw]

That rather jumped out at me. I wonder what would have happened if he'd assessed her as not "ok" to fly the aircraft...

You don't think that "she made the right judgment and told me to close the door and have a seat" gives you an insight into his assessment of her ability to fly the aircraft alone in that situation?

[A and C]

BOAC

Has hit the nail on the head about the security aspects of who you should have access to the flight deck.

The security people have written the rues on flight deck access with one narrow aim in mind, that is to protect themselves and their political masters from political problems. Flight safety is not on their agenda.

In this situation a second skilled pair of hands on the flight deck was a very good move and enhanced the safety of the aircraft despite being in direct contravention of the rules.

This is a very good practical example of the saying " the rules are written for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools".

[vobmfas]

Captain is 61 years old, so I have heard.

[oceancrosser]

Never mind that, I wanna know how old that heart attack person was.

In my pilot group, we have had 2 pilots have heart attacks in the last year, neither of them on the job. Both were in their forties, so you are coming close to a dangerous age... :=

[MarkerInbound]

Boeings will give you ~7 degrees nose wheel steering through the rudder pedals and +70 degrees through the tiller. Hard to do much more than make a high speed exit via the rudder pedals.

[500N]

In one of the articles, it stated that the Co Pilot asked for a "non revenue" pilot.

Any particular reason the emphasis on "non-revenue" ?

[G-ARZG]

No mystery or code there - 'non-revenue' = travelling on staff tix.
Simples!!

[Lonewolf_50]

I think she done good. :ok: As she was in charge now, with the Captain incapacitated, she decided she wanted an assist in the cockpit and she got sort of what she asked for. I suspect she was hoping for someone dead heading or repositioning, but as it worked out, I am perplexed at the criticisms leveled at the FO. :confused:

[M.Mouse]

Interesting article. I think the use of the word panicking was perhaps a little exaggeration, perhaps stressed may have been more accurate.

What came over was that Gongol's experience and background made him decide to act as support (rather than attempt to exert any sort of control over the situation) and thereby gave the co-pilot an immense pyschological boost. It is all very well saying the co-pilot is qualified and trained for the scenario which unfolded but even after command training the first time you are let loose in sole command of an airliner it is a pretty intense albeit very rewarding experience.

So for the co-pilot to be dumped in the deep end would have been extremely demanding. Sounds to me like she would have managed without any help at all but was lucky to have experienced moral and practical support to deal with the incident.

Good to hear that the captain survived and it sound like all involved deserve credit for a job well done.

[West Coast]

In one of the articles, it stated that the Co Pilot asked for a "non revenue" pilot.

My take, again MY take...

I don't want an 80 hour PPL leaping up front to save the day. I'm an instructor (LCA) and can say it's a lot easier to fly the aircraft (preferebly with automation up and running) by myself than to try and work with someone who has no real grasp on how a modern jet operates. It's not exactly easy with someone who works with different SOP's, etc, but it's manageable.

The term non rev means to me an airline guy is what the FO wanted. Quite possibly however, the announcement was made by a flight attendant anyway.

[Airbubba]

An earlier discussion here about a flight attendant helping with a pilot incapacitation:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/418333-flight-attendant-helps-land-plane-ohare.html

And, a gushing Fleet Street account "Off-duty pilot lands plane and saves 160 passengers...":

Off-duty pilot lands plane and saves 160 passengers after captain suffers heart attack - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/off-duty-pilot-lands-plane-saves-3640802)

Some airlines have the first officer taxi with a tiller on the right side, many do not, I've seen it both ways over the years. I think all A300's (and A310's) had two tillers until American Airlines got a supplemental type certificate removing the right tiller.

Do some 737's have both tillers?

I'm not too keen on letting the right seat pilot take a high speed turn off without a tiller, the transition to taxi speed can be a little awkward as you try to brake and turn with only the pedals in my opinion.

[400drvr]

Why? What's that have to do with anything. Are you trying to say only old people have heart attacks?

[Check Airman]

I'm not too keen on letting the right seat pilot take a high speed turn off without a tiller, the transition to taxi speed can be a little awkward as you try to brake and turn with only the pedals in my opinion.

I've done it many times from the right seat. Don't remember it feeling awkward. Give your FO a go next time and see what he/she has to say.

[david1300]

Interesting article. I think the use of the word panicking was perhaps a little exaggeration, perhaps stressed may have been more accurate.

What came over was that Gongol's experience and background made him decide to act as support (rather than attempt to exert any sort of control over the situation) and thereby gave the co-pilot an immense pyschological boost. ....
I would absolutely expect that his only thought was to act as a support. He has a fully type-rated pilot (albeit a FO) already flying the plane (and in the captains' incapacity, in charge of the aircraft). What right would anyone have to even contemplate that he might "...attempt to exert any sort of control...":ugh:

[M.Mouse]

What I meant was that he might have been one of the PPRuNe regulars who know all about everything and could quite easily have behaved quite, quite differently.

[deptrai]

This study http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a428688.pdf found found 39 in-flight medical incapacitations for a rate of 0.045 per 100,000 hours on US airline flights.

Clearly these are rare incidents, and worthy of being reported, yet I wonder...a perfectly working aircraft, with a trained and type rated pilot in control, assisted by at least a cpl level pilot with jet experience, who can handle the radio and read checklists...its not exactly the end of the world, as a passenger I would feel perfectly safe and secure (and Im fussy about not letting certain people drive me in a car). Methinks the US airforce overstated the drama just a little bit in their press release...

[Caygill]

True professionalism from both. Gongol knew the FO was best qualified to get everyone (including his family) safely on ground. Gongol's credentials were at best in providing a confidence boost for the FO, which is the exact thing he did.

I cannot help myself from theorizing though on this question:

I also had about five seconds to asses her, 'was she panicking, or was she OK to fly the aircraft?'

Is there any precedent or legal framework to "what if" he had decided she was not capable and he wanted to take over?

[deptrai]

I think you'll find that in the rare cases where both pilots of a commercial aircraft were incapacitated, passengers were also incapacitated (and/or the a/c was no longer controllable). Making laws for such a situation would be absurd. Lawmakers have better things to do. So Pic is pic and pax is pax.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Is there any precedent or legal framework to "what if" he had decided she was not capable and he wanted to take over?

Yes there is: Make a third announcement to see if there are 2 lawyers on board. Once you get an affirmative set up an arbitration room in Business class. Post that once solution has been arrived at send out a Whats app/ BBM verbal announcement to all on board to vote and based on the outcome of the vote draw up agreements as well as affidavits absolving airline, aircraft manufacturer as well as pilots form any and every litigation. Provide will making services and if possible video graph it so it is proved not under duress

Based on the above proceed with landing :p

For good measure lighten load by throwing out the Lawyers.

[glendalegoon]

Definition of copilot: A fully qualified pilot ACTING as second in command.

[Torque Tonight]

Correct, and with the captain incapacitated the FO becomes the new Captain of the aircraft.

Is there any precedent or legal framework to "what if" he had decided she was not capable and he wanted to take over?

In other words, is there any protocol for a passenger to over rule the captain if an aircraft? No, of course not.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Actually, there is a legal precedent for a passenger assuming command. It's called a hijack. That is exactly what this would have been classed as if the decision had been made to assume command, and rightly so - a B1-B pilot would know next to nothing about flying the 737, just as a 737 pilot would know nothing about the B1. It's one thing to offer help and advice, but is quite another to take control. Now, had the FO been incapacitated too, then that's a different matter.

[ettore]

Just wondering what all the training, simulator sessions, qualifications and further checks on a specific type of a/c are meant for ? A jet fighter pilot can simply walk in and take the left seat of any civil arliner after a 10 seconds "silent assessment" ?

PS : you don't need to be Al Queada to crash a plane. An amateur would pretty easely do it too.

[400drvr]

I think the FO did what she thought was necessary to get her passengers and ailing skipper on the ground. Last time I checked the 737 is a 2 pilot plane. As I understand this story, the FO who was qualified to fly the airplane did the flying and the Lancer pilot was supporting her with checklist and ATC etc... At the end of the day everybody went home and the skipper is recovering. I would say a best case outcome for everybody. :ok:

[pattern_is_full]

An "assessment" doesn't mean "should I take over control or not?"

It can just mean "Does this person need a bit (or a lot) of psychological/emotional support - in addition to an extra pair of hands?"

That is not gender-specific, BTW. Anyone will be shaken by a colleague going into an acute medical emergency an elbow's length away. And not everyone can get their focus back at the same "Captain Ironman" rate. So you check.

As to this thread - keep your eyes on the big picture. Fixating on small details is a BAD habit for pilots - from Eastern 401 on down. I hope the people fixating on this offhand comment or that legalism are the simmers and wannabees - and not the real pilots.

The big picture here was - two individuals were put into a tricky situation. They each did their assessment of the situation, which included assessing their surprise partner (one factor in the situation). Probably faster than it took me to type it.

Decided "You're good. I'm good. Let's get to work." And did.

[Phil Space]

Ettore said...
Just wondering what all the training, simulator sessions, qualifications and further checks on a specific type of a/c are meant for ? A jet fighter pilot can simply walk in and take the left seat of any civil arliner after a 10 seconds "silent assessment" ?

PS : you don't need to be Al Queada to crash a plane. An amateur would pretty easely do it too.

Fair point and I suspect the average jet bus driver could not land a Cherokee:ok:

[Mozella]

........................ The big picture here was - two individuals were put into a tricky situation. They each did their assessment of the situation, which included assessing their surprise partner (one factor in the situation). Probably faster than it took me to type it....................

Exactly. I'm retired now, but my airline trained for just this eventuality using a procedure exactly like this F/O used. Frankly, I'm surprised that some apparently consider this event to be a situation where the F/O would have to make up a procedure on the fly. Isn't pilot incapacitation part of every company's training? Incidentally, our Captains were trained to use the same procedure if the F/O shot craps for some reason.

Of course, a Captain from your own company current on your aircraft and flying as a non-rev or dead-head would be your first choice as an ersatz flying partner. Any other airline pilot next Then military pilots, and even down to one of your flight attendants who might have had a few flying lessons.

Sure, any F/O should be able to land the aircraft solo, but only a fool would choose that option first.

By the way, our F/Os were prohibited from taxiing aircraft although we were allowed to use a high speed turn off using pedal steering at the Captain's discretion. But in an emergency, naturally the F/O would taxi using the tiller, swapping seats if necessary after landing.

The people expressing reservations about asking a military pilot to assist don't know much about the military and, I suspect, are weak when it comes to command authority. If an F/O can't maintain command in the cockpit no matter who comes in to assist, then he/she isn't someone I would want to see promoted to Captain.

It won't come as a surprise to any ex-military types that military pilots, above all others, know all about chain of command. For example, when push comes to shove, Admirals riding on U.S. Navy aircraft, pilot qualified or not, are not able to override the pilot in command even if the pilot is an enlisted man. I guarantee the B-1 pilot was not on the verge of hijacking the aircraft.

However, I'm also sure the B-1 pilot had some concern about what he would encounter when he entered the cockpit, probably more concern then the F/O when the flight attendant told her, "All we could get is a B-1 pilot". The B-1 pilot might have found someone nearly incapacitated by panic or perhaps even by food poisoning. Anyone with half a brain would want to immediately try to assess the situation. As it turned out, he found a qualified F/O fully in charge of the situation, they immediately got down to working as a team under her command, and that was that.

I can't criticize anything about the event except one or two of the odd posts in this thread.

[Sky Slug]

The single tiller is one of the dumbest concepts in aviation. I fly an aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars. They save how much? $10k on a tiller for each side of the aircraft? I am expected to takeoff, land, and manage systems through the worst possible conditions, but I can't taxi an aircraft in normal conditions as a FO?

[Tourist]

Mozella

Very well put.

[Reinhardt]

Some pilots get the necessary training to act as PF/Captain on any aircraft, without type-ratings.... there are not many of them, but it does exist.


Difficult to figure for civilian or military pilots stuck with single-type ratings.

[bubbers44]

All pilots with a type rating in something large could fly as PF in most any other aircraft. Systems may be a bit different but they all basically fly the same.

Of course in a situation like this the FO would be PF and the other pilot assist as necessary starting with check lists and ATC.

She did everything as we all would have. Get the best available assistance and land.

[blowtorch]

Have not read all the posts on this but does anyone recall the following story?


Air Canada flight diverted after co-pilot falls ill - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/air-canada-flight-diverted-after-co-pilot-falls-ill-1.742753)

[Tankertrashnav]

I have a friend who did about 10 hours on Cessnas before deciding that learning to fly wasn't for him.

At a barbeque I overheard his wife saying - Im glad he had those lessons, because I know that if the pilot drops dead when we are flying away on holiday he will be able to take over and land the plane!

I didn't like to disillusion her!

[misd-agin]

"The single tiller is one of the dumbest concepts in aviation. I fly an aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars. They save how much? $10k on a tiller for each side of the aircraft? I am expected to takeoff, land, and manage systems through the worst possible conditions, but I can't taxi an aircraft in normal conditions as a FO?"

Besides indulging in your desire to taxi the a/c what's the operational or financial benefit from providing a second tiller?

[TeachMe]

From a linguistic perspective (my MA),

The original article sounds a lot like a military feel good genre of writing. It was most probably was not written by a pilot, but by someone who studied journalism and enlisted in the service. I suspect that both the pilots would disagree with the pragmatic effect the utterance about 'sizing each other up' had on the audience. I suspect something like 'both of us assessed the situation' would be a lot more accurate an assessment of what went on.

As for the actual pilot stuff, I will leave that up to those qualified :)

[Aluminium shuffler]

TeachMe, I think you're probably right. The whole article is blown out of proportion and the ASAF seem to have over zealously grasped a "we saved the day" story. For clarification, my last post wa not an assertion of what I though had happened but a response to the comments prior about there being no legal framework for the situation.

To be honest, I doubt a seasoned and senior USAF Officer and pilot would be so cavalier as full of bluster as to try to assume control unless it was really needed. However, military pilots tend by and large to have strong personalities, where civil pilots are a very mixed bag of character types and strengths. The potential for a CRM issue is high, but again one would hope the experience as a senior commander would have been enough that he knew how to handle the situation. A fresh-out-of-training fast jet jockey might have been a different matter, if they got the "wrong" one.

[misd-agin]

AS - I spend several years amongst the group you seem to question and I know hundreds, if not more than a thousand, prior military and civilian pilots. I doubt even the 'wrong one' would step into the cockpit and pull an Al Haig - "I'm in charge now."

And I doubt even the 'wrong one', freshly out of training, thought they're the one to tell the FO "take a hike, I'm in charge now."

[Aluminium shuffler]

I'm not suggesting they'd do that, but their strong personality and high confidence could result in them becoming the commander all the same. I have been a part of both camps, so I know the different ethos and mentalities.

[Airbubba]

It won't come as a surprise to any ex-military types that military pilots, above all others, know all about chain of command. For example, when push comes to shove, Admirals riding on U.S. Navy aircraft, pilot qualified or not, are not able to override the pilot in command even if the pilot is an enlisted man.

Actually, current Navy Regs, Chapter 10, Section 2, Paragraph 1031, Authority of Officers Embarked as Passengers, states: 'The commanding officer of a ship or aircraft, not a flagship, with a flag officer eligible for command at sea embarked, shall be subject to the orders of such flag officer.'

I believe the last enlisted U.S. naval aviator retired in 1981. :eek:

However, I'm also sure the B-1 pilot had some concern about what he would encounter when he entered the cockpit, probably more concern then the F/O when the flight attendant told her, "All we could get is a B-1 pilot".

Like you, I would prefer a naval aviator or maybe even a Marine naval aviator but, in a pinch, a Bone driver would do. ;)

The original article sounds a lot like a military feel good genre of writing. It was most probably was not written by a pilot, but by someone who studied journalism and enlisted in the service. I suspect that both the pilots would disagree with the pragmatic effect the utterance about 'sizing each other up' had on the audience. I suspect something like 'both of us assessed the situation' would be a lot more accurate an assessment of what went on.

I agree. And, years ago I would consider some of the banter here about legality to be nonsense in an emergency situation. However, the feds are increasingly compliance and documentation oriented it seems. I find myself thinking more CYA and 'how would this look at the hearing' than thinking about the safest, most efficient way to operate the aircraft.

Hope the captain is back to work after the one year medical observation period and the FO and B-1 pilot have better careers than mine! :ok:

[SeenItAll]

See this news story for a less hyperbolic account of what actually happened.
Iowa airman, nurses aid crew after pilot heart attack (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2014/06/04/iowa-air-force-mark-gongol-west-des-moines-emergency-landing/9987275/)

[Airbubba]

See this news story for a less hyperbolic account of what actually happened.

The dramatic opening line of this 'less hyperbolic account': 'The story begins like the beginning of a script for a bad 1970s disaster movie.' :D

Thanks for sharing this, it is good to see the stories of the medical professionals who were involved.

Hope Mark Gongol gets his airline job (be careful what you wish for Mark ;)).

[ExSp33db1rd]

Not uncommon at all.
Most of the 737s & 757s I flew only had a tiller on the captains side. And the 707 IIRC ?

Like you, I would prefer a naval aviator or maybe even a Marine naval aviator but, in a pinch, a Bone driver would do Absolutely, what a lot of garbage has been publisher here from people who clearly know nothing about it, BOAC's comment about Al Q waiting to strike when a pilot had a problem, and just coincidentally placing a fake Air Force pilot on board, should have answered all stupid comments about who is allowed on the flight deck now.

If I'd ever had a similar problem I'd have taken any willing warm body who was able to do what I asked, preferably somebody with some experience if available, even if only a trainee microlight pilot who might at least be able to use the radio if I asked him to !

probably more concern then the F/O when the flight attendant told her, "All we could get is a B-1 pilot".My reply would have been - Fantastic !
And, years ago I would consider some of the banter here about legality to be nonsense in an emergency situation.
As far as the "regulations" are concerned, I recall advice given to me as a young co-pilot by an "old" Captain viz... If you ever have to break the rules just be damned sure that you can justify your actions when summoned to the Subsequent Court of Enquiry, if you can - then go ahead.

If "The Feds" throw the book at the F/O for breaking security protocols -no, I can't go on, words fail me.

On the other hand ......... I was initially hired to be the 3rd pilot on a 5 man ( yes it was only men in those days, don't start that argument again ) flight deck, (Flt.Nav and Flt. Eng included ) so if the bean counters are so confident that modern airliners are "safe" with only two crew up front, why did the F/O need any help, couldn't she push all the buttons, send out a Mayday, re-programme the transponder, make sure the body next to her wasn't going to fall over the controls, initiate an emergency descent, land, park, undo her seat harness and unlock the flight deck door without help ? Only kidding ! but you get the point, is all this "progress" safer, or just making more profit for someone ? She did a great job, pity it was necessary.

[400drvr]

ExSp33db1rd,

I agree completely. What could be better than a guy who knows how to fly, B-1 pilot would certainly qualify in my book too.

:ok:

[The Ancient Geek]

When it all goes wrong and the pressure is on for a relatively junior young lady it must have been a great help to have a calm and competant assistant to reduce the workload and provide moral support.

A good job well done by all concerned.

[West Coast]

When it all goes wrong and the pressure is on for a relatively junior young lady

Has there been a determination as to her seniority? Seen this aspect repeated but not substantiated.

[westhawk]

I don't know anything about the UAL FO's background or experience either, so I wouldn't be happy with characterizing her as a a "relatively junior young lady" unless I knew that to be the case. Makes her seem like some cadet MPL from one of those European pay to fly schemes. United has done some things in the past when they "needed" to recruit women, but that was quite some time ago.

For those who might not know it, getting hired as a pilot at a US major usually requires significant previous turbine and command experience. Brand new FOs usually have in excess of 5,000 hours total time and previous jet or large turboprop PIC time. They were pro pilots long before applying at United. Thousands of regional and bizjet pilots have applied, but in recent years only a few get an interview. Those transitioning from the military may have less total time but not always. Even the abyssmal first year pay doesn't detract! Our neighbors to the North (Canada) don't have a history of hiring the inexperienced at the majors either.

So until I know otherwise I'll presume that the FO in question was fully qualified by any reasonable measure and asked for another pilot to assist only because it's the most appropriate thing to do under the circumstances. Apparently she knew how to do her job and the AF pilot sat in and assisted as directed by the PIC. (temporary). ALL FOs are expected to assume command and safely complete the flight when required. I hope she reads some the comments here and has a good laugh! Thanks for living up to your duties!

[LeadSled]

Folks,
There is a lot of "sexism" in references to the "young lady pilot" UAL F/O. The implications being she was some simpering weakling who needed help because she was female.
That she was employed by UAL says a lot about her pre-UAL experience and competence.
One such "young lady" F/O of my acquaintance, before joining UAL, was a USAF A-10 pilot, last time we spoke she was flying F-16 in her local Air National Guard. Significantly, she topped every gunnery and bombing competition, in which she partook.
As to the command decisions taken by the F/O ( now Pilot in Command) in this thread, there is nothing to criticizes, and everything to praise, and I hope any male pilot would have done exactly the same thing.
Indeed, on the basis of what has been reported, everything was straight out of my old airline Emergency SOPs for pilot incapacitation.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Has there been a determination as to her seniority? WTF has that got to do with it ? Unless she was under initial training -in which case there may well have been another pilot around anyway (?) - she was assumed to be capable of taking over if the Captain dies - isn't that why we have two pilots - or is the F/O now just a "Captains' Assistant" ? ( like the future crew of a Captain and a dog - the Captain is there to feed the dog, and the dog is there to make sure that the Captain doesn't TOUCH anything !)

Calling for assistance is exactly what she was supposed to do, I recall being told that the incapacitated pilot -alive or dead - should be tied back against his seat for a start, and remember the BAC 1-11 Captain that was nearly sucked out of the window when it blew out at altitude, fat chance he would have had if immediate assistance had been locked behind an FAA "secure" door, he owes his life to non-flight crew hanging on to his legs throught the ordeal.

[West Coast]

It hasn't a damn thing to do with it. Posters here are repeating it that she is junior as if it's an indication of a lack of experience. She wouldn't be there if her overall experience level wasn't relatively high.

[Mozella]

A fresh-out-of-training fast jet jockey might have been a different matter, if they got the "wrong" one.

I think you've been watching TOP GUN too many times.

U.S. Naval Aviators, particularly fighter pilots, are nothing like the character portrayed by Tom Cruise.

Neither Mr. Cruise nor his character, LT Pete 'Maverick' Mitchell, would last ten minutes in the real Navy. They are both the "wrong" one, but neither of them exist in the form of a genuine aviator, so you need not worry next time you get on an airliner.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Naval Aviators...........so you need not worry next time you get on an airliner.First time I landed at Male, Maldives one night, nothing but 2 lines of runway lights in a black void of ocean, and as we rolled out I remarked that I hadn't enjoyed that one bit. A quiet voice from a supernumary pilot at the back of the flight deck said " now you know what it's like landing on a carrier at night!"

[Elephant and Castle]

Sure, any F/O should be able to land the aircraft solo, but only a fool would choose that option first.

Why?. What help can I get from a total stranger? He doesn't know where we are, how to use the radios, how to setup the box, how much runway do we need, what is an unreasonable descent or speed profile for this aircraft, even where the checklist is located and what is a reasonable response to some of the challenges. He also probably not familiar with the airports we operate into, the terrain, the approach procedures or the ground layout.

What I need is medical asistance for the incapacitated crew member.
Navigation and wx info asistance from ATC.
A little bit of time to get my ducks in a row. Get the plates, set up the boxes...

Teaching someone how to operate THIS radio, then telling them what to say takes longer than pressing the PTT and just saying it myself.

A type rating course takes 1 month and as far as I know they dont give exemptions to ex military pilots. It is not rocket science but each aircaft is just a little different. Explaining those differences to someone unfamiliar takes an amount of time that I rather use to get medical help for my colleague a little bit sooner.

I am not criticising the FO, far from it (she became the commander and she did what she thought was best to a good outcome) , but my view is that anything other than a paxing company pilot, maybe another airline pilot rated on the same type, is probable going to increase rather than reduce your workload. As for moral support, we can get that after we land.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Each to his own I guess, you can only play it on the day the way the chips fall on the day, anyway, not a problem that's going to bother me any time soon.

Enjoy.

[Mozella]

Why?. What help can I get from a total stranger? .............
What I need is medical asistance for the incapacitated crew member.
...........

You're kidding. Anyone working for a large airline climbs into the cockpit with total strangers all the time. Flying with complete strangers is part of the job. Of course, the other pilot you've never met is trained by your own company. However, having been a commuter most of my career, I have observed many other operators flying aircraft I was rated in as well as other models. Guess what, there is a huge amount of standardization in the way people operate airliners, at least in the U.S. Sure, a 707 pilot wouldn't be able to program a 767 FMC, but that's not what you're looking for. If nothing else, even a flight attendant might protect you from an in flight collision. That's why many operators, including the one I used to work for, considered pilot incapacitation and developed a procedure exactly like the one this squared-away F/O used.

In this case, the very first thing the F/O did is arrange for medical assistance. After that was taken care of, she did the smart thing, not the macho thing or what some pilots are obviously unwilling to admit;i.e. "I don't have enough self confidence and command authority to let someone else into the cockpit because they might overwhelm me."

[roninmission]

Sure she did the right thing. I get that a B1 Mil pilot would not be first choice but it's worth remembering that coincidences do happen and if he did nothing else he was the last hope should the F/O become incapicitated.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Mozella, in this instance there was a capable FO and a decent but not especially relevantly qualified pilot that could give some useful backup. But consider some airlines and their 250 hour wonderkids, or god forbid MPL graduates. Put a meek cadet (and I see some of those as well as the confident ones) into the scenario and things can change. That might not necessarily be a bad thing - I have doubts over a small proportion of FOs' ability to handle an incapacitation scenario with anything adding to the pressure, like a tech or weather issue. The point is that things might not turn out as easy and measured as this case.

[stilton]

How ridiculous,


'Calling for assistance' in this scenario is NOT what we are trained to do, we are all qualified to operate these aircraft, in an emergency like this, single pilot to a safe landing.


Since when does a military bomber pilot have the credentials and / or experience to 'assess' a civilian jet transport pilot operating an aircraft they are completely unfamiliar with and not qualified on in a totally different environment than what they are accustomed to ?


They would be more trouble than they are worth.



It's as ludicrous as a 737 Captain replacing a B1 Commander on a bombing mission.



Better off on your own, i'm not blaming the FO, he or she had their heart in the right place I just think they forgot their training and made a mistake.

[nitpicker330]

Well I can't see the problem in having another experienced Aviator sitting by your side in such an event. Just to make sure you don't forget to put the wheels down under stress if nothing else!!


Well handled I say, the FO did what she was trained to do and completed the mission safely.


What's your problem?????

[stilton]

That's my point, she did NOT do what she was trained to and did NOT follow company policy.


And this other pilot was not remotely qualified to sit in the captain's seat and / or 'assist'


That's 'my problem'

[YorkshireTyke]

nitpicker330

Totally agree, I sincerely hope that I'm never a passenger with stilton when he has to prove that he can emulate Superman - and work like a one armed paperhanger at the same time ! If he asks, and I'm on board, I'll tell him to get on with it -mate !

I'd take any warm body, even if they only sat in the jump seat and kept their mouth shut, just in case I might want some sort of hand ( I might even drop my pen at the wrong time !! ) if not, no harm done.

As you say, what's the problem ?

[RetiredF4]

Since when does a military bomber pilot have the credentials and / or experience to 'assess' a civilian jet transport pilot operating an aircraft they are completely unfamiliar with and not qualified on in a totally different environment than what they are accustomed to ?

He has no credetials and expierience to "assess", agreed. But where does it say, that to "assess" was the task needed in this situation?

..... completely unfamiliar with...
is probably exagerated somewhat. Basic flight instruments are the same in any aircraft, the switchology might be different, the interpretation of the information displayed should pose no problem. Before 911 I got two jump seat rides in A 320, and i had no trouble to identify all relevant information concerning position, attitude, altitude, track, speed, fuel, engines, radios and navaids within the first few minutes, despite my expierience was only fast jet analoge instrumentation. That does not qualify to handle the jet, but is enough to monitor and assist in some tasks if required.

..... in a total different environment....
The procedures, airspace, radio comm, rules and regs and the navaids and charts as well as the appropriate approaches available for IFR Flying are almost the same for any aircraft in that airspace structure, being it a commercial jet or a military fast jet or bomber aircraft.

.......they would be more trouble than they are worth..

You look from a point of skygod position on the abilities of military pilots concerning their general abilities for monitoring and assisting in conductung an IFR flight, you even seem mistrust their ability to adopt a role below the command position and fear interference in the safe operation of the aircraft by such military pilots.

May i remind, that the military is using crew concept procedures since two seat aircraft like the F4 were introduced nearly 50 years ago with clear definition of tasks and authority regardless of rank or seat position.

A pilot, who after some issue with the other pilot like in this discussed happening feels safer alone in a two crew cockpit than with an aditional set of eyes (FA, unqualified pilot, qualified pilot) should look for outside advice.

[kaikohe76]

Can anybody, possibly with contacts with the Airline concerned, please explain clearly, just what are the duties & responsibilities of Co Pilots within this company?

[rh200]

Seems to be a few people with penis envy in relation to this particular problem. Obviously I'm wrong, but I thought it was standard procedure to see if there's any one to help out.

As for preference to pilots, and have p!ssing contest in being "qualified", you are entirely correct technically. From a practical hands on viewpoint, I would think a fellow pilot, who's used to heavy high performance aircraft, might be a bit more of a help, than maybe a 152 pilot, if it was to hit the fan .

Since when does a military bomber pilot have the credentials and / or experience to 'assess' a civilian jet transport pilot operating an aircraft they are completely unfamiliar with and not qualified on in a totally different environment than what they are accustomed to ?

I would think by the time you get to that level, making an assessment if somebody's "loosing it" or not is most likely up their ally. Like all senoir people in, or out of the military in a senior position, evaluating abnormal situations would be par for the course. People do and have fallen apart under unusual circumstances, we are only human.

[nitpicker330]

Yes I think someone here needs to get a grip.

A highly experienced swept wing high performance IFR Jet Pilot would certainly be of use in the flight deck.

I would certainly welcome him under similar circumstances.

This FO was lucky to have him shotgun.

Now for goodness sake take a chill pill PLEASE.

[VR-HFX]

Here I was thinking Stilton was a mature cheese:ugh:

I'm with my colleague Nitpicker.

An experienced heavy jet pilot provides an extra layer of safety, especially if something else goes wrong.

[Tourist]

Stilton

No.

It may be politically incorrect to say it, but it is nothing like putting a civvy pilot in for a B1 Bombing mission.

I left the military as do thousands of others each year and went for sim rides in Airbus and Boeing aircraft. It was never pretty but I was able to takeoff fly the route each time and land in aircraft I was totally untrained for.

A civilian pilot or even another military pilot could not climb into a B1 and fly a bombing mission.

If you believe the jobs compare then you are being very silly.

Get airborne in a B1 and then land it?
Maybe.
Bombing mission?
Idiocy.

[deptrai]

Given the outcome of the emergency, that the aircraft landed safely, and the incapacitated captain got medical help, I find it incredible that a few here appear to second-guess the decisions made by the pilot in command. If you would do it differently in your cockpit, it's your decision, and if you would have landed the aircraft safely all alone thats fine, but in this case it wasn't you, and you weren't there. It should be possible to have a debate about what decisions to make and why, in a hypothetical situation, but not without a bit of respect for those who have actually been there and successfully managed such a situation. As a professional courtesy, acknowledging that your colleague did well would not hurt, even if you think you would have chosen a different course of action. Labelling a fellow professionals' decision as a "mistake" seems a bit harsh and unnecessary in this case.

As for (company) regulations, they can't possibly cover every situation in all detail. They are there for a reason, and should be adhered to strictly, yet there should be wiggle room for a pic to deviate if he deems it justified in an emergency. If there is a policy to only let pilots from your own outfit assist in case of incapacitation, maybe it's because assessing exactly which other pilots could be qualified to assist would require an additional 20 pages (with the input of lawyers and insurance companies), and that is beyond the scope of a practical decision make guideline. Imagine you are in her situation, you ask for pilots, and there's "only" an experienced heavy jet driver coming forth, who has flown into the airport you are about to land at before (not the freshly type rated inhouse mpl cadet the regulations would - theoretically - allow). You're obviously fully qualified yourself, but you'd appreciate someone to handle checklists and atc, and possibly an extra pair of eyes.
If the pilot in command, there and then, decided that the Lancer pilot would be of help, I think that can be justified. It's not completey unreasonable.

[latetonite]

Again a thread where common sense is phased out.

[Elephant and Castle]

This has nothing to do with one man bands, heroics or anything of the sort. The problem is how to get the airplane down to a suitable airfield as safely and quickly as possible so our colleague can get expert medical help.

If the level of experience and knowledge of the potential "assistant" can get that job done quicker and with an increased level of safety I am all for it. If they are there just to make me feel better I dont need the distraction, I have a job to do and I am pretty busy. I certainly dont want to use ten minutes explaining how the seat is adjusted, how the radios work, where we are and where are we going, what is our call sign, etc, etc, etc

A company pilot, great. Another airline pilot rated on the same type, good. A small turboprop operator from another continent, hum. Everyone else, in my view, would just add to the workload and contribute little to achieve the task at hand. Either way in most circumstances all will be over inside 20 minutes. No heroics involved here, just fly the aircraft as we do every day. If I drop my pen, no problem I just leave it there, I dont expect to be doing much writting. Not until I get to the office anyway.

[rh200]

A small turboprop operator from another continent, hum. Everyone else, in my view, would just add to the workload and contribute little to achieve the task at hand.

Rather sad, a small turbo prop operator rates a hum, above and experienced high performance heavy military pilot.:sad:

An experienced heavy jet pilot provides an extra layer of safety, especially if something else goes wrong.

What I truly find sad, is the inability to think laterally and try and use your available resources. The fact is there is a multitude of things that could go wrong, engine failure, multiple engine failure, fire, electrical issues, alarms going off etc etc.

Though you would have to think that you would be given a stacked deck if that just happened to occur at this time, that said I'm a big believer in Murphys law. Another words the holes in the swiss cheese lining up.

The fact is, if that was to happen, there would be only one person who is practically qualified to quickly go though the systems on the aircraft to identify any issues, and determin their importance. Whilst there are two people who could most likely handle the aircraft manually.

I'm not sure what your single pilot training says about handling multiple emergencies at the same time. But at the end of the day, you can only make a decision on the circumstances at the time.

[Mozella]

Stilton Says:
That's my point, she did NOT do what she was trained to and did NOT follow company policy.Do you know this for a fact, or are you just making stuff up?

I worked for a major competitor of UAL so I don't know their policy but I would be surprised if it was not the same as at my airline. It was written right in the policy manual that in cases like this we should put the best qualified person the empty seat even if that meant a flight attendant. In addition, we trained for it in the sim. Furthermore, landing the aircraft solo would subject the F/O to criticism and at a minimum a "rug dance" in the Chief Pilot's office or even a hearing. I've never been, but they used to say "You won't like it. To start with, all the ash trays are at the other end of the table".

If you are actually a pilot (in real life, not just on the Internet), please post your company and full name so if I ever get on a flight and hear it mentioned on the PA I can bail out before they remove the jetway. ;)

[Elephant and Castle]

. If you are actually a pilot (in real life, not just on the Internet), please post your company and full name so if I ever get on a flight and hear it mentioned on the PA I can bail out before they remove the jetway.

I would like to see that. You explaining to your tearful family that the holiday is canceled as they watch from the terminal the airplane pushing back. "I think is the same pilot that wrote in internet that if the captain had a heart attack he would not ask me to come and save the day for him, we are not going" :}

[Um... lifting...]

When a pax I've been asked before pushback by a (probably) overzealous flight attendant if I would be willing to assist in the event of an emergency (I have a baggage tag which indicates my line of work). My seat mate's eyes grew large as saucers as I tried to explain that it was very unlikely such a thing might happen.

When up front I've had a pilot in the opposite seat (not rated in category or class) on a familiarization flight which was diverted to a SAR case. While I could have handled the flight without him, he was definitely useful and I was glad of his assistance. Granted I knew the fellow, and we were part of the same organization so I knew his capabilities as well as his limitations in my machine.

Basics of monitoring flight parameters, copying clearances, and the like, are fully within the capacity of any multi-crew qualified pilot, whether that pilot is going from a B-1B to a 737 as in this case, or coming from a twin turbofan into a helicopter, as was the case with my colleague. If that pilot has operated a FMS, so much the better, but aviation radio tuning ain't exactly rocket science, whether it's a King stack or some other interface. My working ride at the moment has the same FMS as many current Boeing products. It just also happens to have rotor blades.

Things like seat adjustment are red herrings unless you intend the person to do any of the handling, which I suspect is unlikely. In any case, there is this procedure (perhaps you have heard of it) called "holding". A couple of requested turns might be prudent rather than trying to shove someone into the opposite seat inside the FAF.

Every case is going to be different. A non type rated pilot coming forward from the cabin may not have been useful for UAL 232 as a type rated training captain like Dennis Fitch was, but you never know. In the end, it was the FOs call to make, it turned out successfully, and only the truly churlish would second-guess that.

[LeadSled]

That's my point, she did NOT do what she was trained to and did NOT follow company policy.Stilton,

Do you actually know that to be the case?
Do you work for UAL as a pilot?

Until recently, I worked for a airline, with an impeccable safety record, what the F/O did, in this case, could have been right out of the SOPs for incapacitation of my airline --- and many others.

[Ancient Observer]

There is more hot air in this thread than one gets from a year of Politicians.

And I thought politicians were bad.

[OFSO]

I have been in a few extreme situations in my life (although not flying related). Under such circumstances the rule book goes out of the window and you make use of what assets are available. Who determines if the situation is extreme ? You do, based on your qualifications and more importantly, your experience.

The difference between survival and non-survival depends on understanding this, and that will provide you with an "afterwards" in which you can sort matters out at leasure.

[deptrai]

Could anyone with actual knowledge of UAL SOP's (no you don't need to identify yourself as an employee...you can claim you gleaned this knowledge from your friend) shed some light on what a pic is allowed to do in an emergency like this, according to company policies? I'm not the biggest fanboy of aviation regulators, but usually they include a provision like "In an emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot-in-command may deviate from any rule" (quoting the FAA). And I think any operator will have similar provisions. Am i naive? Would company regulations make her actions questionable? This was a non-standard situation, even an emergency, and imho the pic did everything right, from what i know. Please don't tell me according to some rule she made a mistake?

[Intruder]

UAL's SOP is irrelevant. In an emergency, FAA regulations give the PIC full authority to do anything [s]he deems necessary to ensure the safety of the flight:

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

[deptrai]

Thank you Intruder. Common sense prevails. Case closed.

[ExSp33db1rd]

As I remarked earlier, one can only play the situation the way the chips fall on any given day, rules, no rules, or SOP's not withstanding.

This happened.

It worked.

QED.

[llondel]

I've heard of cases before where a flight deck emergency has resulted in a call for a spare pilot, and invariably the spare is given the job of operating the radio and monitoring while the qualified pilot flies the aircraft. (OK, so UA232 was an exception.) She was flying into an unfamiliar airport, so having an extra pair of eyes on things to help with the workload seems an eminently sensible decision.

As for 'failing' his assessment, as an experienced military officer, I'd say his response would have been more to provide reassurance and calm to get the pilot into a better frame of mind for the task because that would have been a safer approach than trying to take over. That's what good military people do, build up the confidence of people on their team to achieve the goal.

[DozyWannabe]

BOAC's comment about Al Q waiting to strike when a pilot had a problem, and just coincidentally placing a fake Air Force pilot on board, should have answered all stupid comments about who is allowed on the flight deck now.

Quite. Not to mention the fact that they'd have to open the door to let the medical people through if the incapacitated crew member was unable to make it to the cabin without assistance. I doubt any human being would waste a second worrying about an infinitessimally small risk to security if their colleague's life might be at stake - at least I sincerely hope that's the case!

...who might at least be able to use the radio if I asked him to !

That seems to have been what the B-1 pilot mostly ended up doing.


...so if the bean counters are so confident that modern airliners are "safe" with only two crew up front, why did the F/O need any help, couldn't she push all the buttons, send out a Mayday, ... without help ?

Almost certainly. :ok:

But in such circumstances it's definitely prudent to take all the help you can get!

...remember the BAC 1-11 Captain that was nearly sucked out of the window when it blew out at altitude, fat chance he would have had if immediate assistance had been locked behind an FAA "secure" door, he owes his life to non-flight crew hanging on to his legs throught the ordeal.

Funnily enough that incident sprang to mind as I was reading about this one. RT in the BA5390 incident was apparently something of a moot point until the aircraft was low and slow enough for the FO to hear anything over the wind noise. Definitely a superlative example of airmanship and crew co-operation and no mistake - however there was a small degree of luck involved in that the aircraft was forced to transit some of the busiest airspace in the UK without being able to tell ATC what they were doing and why (not to mention without being able to hear ATC warn them if they were about to hit something).

The rather sobering thought occurs to me that a similar incident in this day and age would lead to fighters being scrambled with orders to intercept and possibly shoot down.

As an aside, and back to your previous point, the One-Eleven introduced a two-person flight deck for short-haul ops in the 1960s, and while it was a brilliant little aircraft by all accounts, it was much more "hands-on" to fly than a 737NG - or even a "Classic". Five-person crews were really a legacy of the old Lancastrian days, were they not?