A Very British Airline?

[mary meagher]

just recovering from watching this on BBC 2. Like nothing has changed since the last century....women as painted dolls, punctuality and appearance required of newbies, but not of the supervisors, who all seem podgy and overbearing...

And are the rich really that picky and overbearing? when they are really cash cows for the airline, they need all that pampering? Can't help thinking Ryan and Easyjet have the more up to date ideas than BA.

Please tell me they don't do it this way any more?

[Tray Surfer]

"Please tell me they don't do it this way any more?"

Considering it was filmed over the winter which has just passed, I think you can suffice to say, yes, they do.

And, it was exactly the same when I joined 7 years ago. Snapshots. Appearance. Time keeping.

Yes, customers in First do expect what has been depicted, and that is why, in regards to EasyJet and Ryanair, we serve very different customer bases when it comes to certain markets. i.e. Long Haul and Premium cabins, which, as I am sure you are aware, both of those airlines offer neither.

[Capetonian]

I slept through half it, that may have been more of a reflection on me at the end of a tiring day than the programme, but I found the sycophantic fawning of the wannabee FAs and the pompous attitude of the trainers/assessors rather sickening.

I was also shocked at how standards have declined. The speech of some of the girls was appalling.

Was lovely to see Roz Hanby though, and a reminder of how things once were.

[vctenderness]

Back in BOAC days the training was pretty strict in particular for the girls regards makeup and deportment.

The boys were chased constantly on shoes and hair styles.

However in the classroom it was much more relaxed than today.

My two trainers, Snowy Philpott and Johnny Lythe were old hands who had seen it all and injected humour and gentle discipline in to us.

If 'snapshots' had existed then no one would have passed!

One memorable answer to a question from a fellow trainee when asked what Beth Din meant (it's the term used in Kosher food preparation) was 'Bethlehem Dinner'. First snapshot there then!:ok:

[Iain Wilson]

"The speech of some of the girls was appalling."

Capetonian - couldn`t agree more. I`m afraid that is part of a general malaise affecting society - the dumbing down of good grammer in preference to a patois that comes from God knows where.

[Hedfanwr]

A snapshot for incorrect spelling of 'grammar'.

[Iain Wilson]

Hedfanwyr:
Touche!!

[Capetonian]

'Touché' if we're being pedantic!

(I'm off for lunch).

[B Fraser]

You mean luncheon.

;)

[vctenderness]

Or a Bethlehem Dinner maybe:}

[Ancient Observer]

1. Er, let's not make a meal of it. (Ho-ho)

2. The prog sent me to sleep aswell. I had not drunk any of the '96 Lynch Bages.

3. If you've spent that amount of money on a First Class flight, then I imagine that you expect utterly superb food and wine. If the excellence is not there from the chosen suppliers, the poor old CC can't wave magic wands to improve it!

[crewmeal]

My two trainers, Snowy Philpott and Johnny Lythe were old hands who had seen it all and injected humour and gentle discipline in to us.

Snowy was my trainer along wit John Jenner. Back in those days the courses were segregated and the only time you met the girls was in the canteen. Back then girls were taught more about deportment, make up and hairdos. The boys learnt how to tie a dicky bow and shoe laces!

Cranebank in the early 70's was probably reognised as the best training school in the world. The RAF used it for their cabin service training along with SEP.

[Don't sink]

Was amazed by the comment of the male trainee after his mate on the course had been sacked for his 4th snapshot. Apparantly his 4th snapshot was for being 2 minutes late to the classroom, this guy moans to the camera, it's not fair he was sacked for 2 minutes, isn't that what airlines have airport standby for?!!
Priceless, suspect next weeks episode there may be a second sacking!

[Evanelpus]

Does Jody get the job?

She's looking forward to seeing the animals in Nairobi? FFS:ugh:

If that's the best BA can come up with out of thousands of applications, I'll stick with easyjet!:ok:

[Capetonian]

Does Jody get the job?
She's looking forward to seeing the animals in Nairobi? FFS:ugh:
If that's the best BA can come up with out of thousands of applications, I'll stick with easyjet!My thoughts exactly.

[chrissw]

So here I am at almost 49 years of age, still employed but looking for a new direction.

I reckon I could do at least as well as any of them on the programme last night. Do you think BA would give me a chance?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

The bird sorry lady that could identify aircraft was a plane spotters dream i'd marry her tomos (and for her concessions lol):\

[Omnipresent]

So here I am at almost 49 years of age, still employed but looking for a new direction.

I reckon I could do at least as well as any of them on the programme last night. Do you think BA would give me a chance?


Cabin crew of all ages have joined Mixed Fleet, so there's nothing stopping you applying if you think it's for you.

[Nopax,thanx]

or did anyone else think the reaction of the trainers and wannabes on learning that the chap had been 'terminated' was way over the top?

The hushed tones, the trainees leaving the room in tears.....

not as if he was literally terminated, just off the course.

By contrast, the old engineering fossil was a treat; filthy overalls, laid-back, been there for years. Made me happy that I'm an engineer too :ok:

[vctenderness]

Quote:
Does Jody get the job?
She's looking forward to seeing the animals in Nairobi? FFS
If that's the best BA can come up with out of thousands of applications, I'll stick with easyjet!


Most of the animals in Nairobi were in the bar:}

[Iain Wilson]

Yes - absolutely concur!!!!
The hushed tones and tears were unbelievable.......!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh:

How precious can you get??
Loved the old engineer guy :):)

[Capetonian]

'Put them in first class': What happens when a passenger dies mid-flight? (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/put-them-in-first-class-what-happens-when-a-passenger-dies-midflight-20140530-398bo.html)

Despite the provenance, the article is about BA.

[EyesFront]

or did anyone else think the reaction of the trainers and wannabes on
learning that the chap had been 'terminated' was way over the top?

The
hushed tones, the trainees leaving the room in tears.....

not as if he
was literally terminated, just off the course.



As there was no tearful final interview with him, I assumed that he must actually have terminated, solving all his problems at once ...

BA cabin crew don't take prisoners, you know...

[mixture]

If you've spent that amount of money on a First Class flight, then I imagine that you expect utterly superb food and wine. If the excellence is not there from the chosen suppliers, the poor old CC can't wave magic wands to improve it!

I've flown BA First twice (once in 2012, once in 2014... both times paid in Avios, not cash I might hasten to add !)

To be perfectly honest, I would call it "Club Plus"....

- The AVOD is the same.
- The food is not special (BA are still trying too hard, I still feel they need to be realistic about what's possible in the air and design their menu accordingly.... trying to do stuff like the soufflé shown on TV will never work and is only something that a bunch of design by committee corporate idiots would come up with.... simplifying and going back to basics would do BA a lot of good ! )
- The seats are pretty much the Club seats with a little extra padding

Would I pay cash for First (if I could !) .... never.
Would I redeem Avios again for First.... having given them a second chance this year... no.

Would I pay cash (as long as the price is right) or redeem avios for Club ... yes (for longhaul / midhaul.... its pointless on shorthaul). Club (longhaul in particular) is essential ! There's no way I'd do LHR-SYD crammed up in the back. But that's why I'd buy the ticket... for the space and (relative) comfort ... not for the food or some crew member smiling at me becasue that's what the training manual says they should do.

[vulcanised]

Just watched it on iPlayer.

I would have preferred at least 50% less time spent on cabin crew.

[strake]

To be perfectly honest, I would call it "Club Plus"

Completely agree. I think they had it right in the mid-nineties First cabin even though it was side by side seating. At least you felt you were doing something special and the service was exceptional.
As far as food, once again I agree. Best 'Premium' meal I had was when flying with my young daughter in Virgin UC and she didn't want to eat her children's meal. Chicken Goujon's with Honey BBQ sauce, mashed potato's and pea's followed by fruit salad. Yum! Went down well with a crisp Montrachet. :)

[crewmeal]

The food is not special (BA are still trying too hard, I still feel they need to be realistic about what's possible in the air and design their menu accordingly.... trying to do stuff like the soufflé shown on TV will never work and is only something that a bunch of design by committee corporate idiots would come up with.... simplifying and going back to basics would do BA a lot of good ! )

I couldn't agree more. when I was flying BA used to trial all sorts of menus and none seem to perfect at 35,000 feet. Some time ago I watched Heston Blumenthal try and perform and the only dish that worked was good old cottage pie!

Mission impossible for British Airways and Heston Blumenthal - YouTube

[First.officer]

I caught the tail end of this programme last night, and was amazed at the level to which these guys and girls have to go to, in order to meet BA standards. I know criticism has been levelled by some in earlier posts as to speech and grammar standards, but come on - these cabin crew seemingly earn relatively bugger all for the standards expected. If they get through all of that, then well done to all of them.

F/o

[Evanelpus]

I caught the tail end of this programme last night, and was amazed at the level to which these guys and girls have to go to, in order to meet BA standards. I know criticism has been levelled by some in earlier posts as to speech and grammar standards, but come on - these cabin crew seemingly earn relatively bugger all for the standards expected. If they get through all of that, then well done to all of them.

The recruits were told that they should think themselves very lucky to be there as BA had received thousands of applications. Given a couple of the ones that were chosen, I'd love to get some perspective from those who didn't even get an invite!

[mary meagher]

We advertised a position at the gliding club and had a raft of completely unsuitable applicants, from far away places....apparently you don't get your dole money if you are not actually making applications for work....however unlikely!

[B77L]

"I`ve never, ever got up this early in my life, never. This is torture".

Well done :rolleyes:

[chrissw]

And that's one reason why I think I stand a chance of at least getting through the initial selection. I regularly have to work at all hours, sometimes at short notice. It goes with the territory in the job I do.

Sometimes it helps to have been around the block a couple of times.

[Halcyon Days]

John Lythe did my training too. Dont recall any other of the trainers names-but it was very good training and I was over the moon to be on a VC.10/707 course rather than Jumbos. I was probably on one of the last courses on these fleets.

[ExSp33db1rd]

..........i'd marry her tomos (and for her concessions lol)

You don't have to marry her, B.A. staff can now nominate a "travel companion" - who need not be related, and also have no connection whatsoever to B.A. - to take with them at the same "Staff Travel" rates, and ..change that nominee every 6 months, that's a potential 90 strangers over a possible lifetime career ! Make friends with one, NOW !

To achieve this B.A. have terminated Staff Travel concessions to those of us who gave a lifetime of service, and were promised concessions for the rest of our retirement as a result. "Integrity" is not a word known to B.A. management.

Barstewards. Don't worry, you won't meet me on any B.A.aircraft, Emirates, S.I.A. and the like - here we come !!

[bar none]

As I understand it a lifetime of service will provide you with staff travel until the end of your lifetime.
It is only those with a shorter length of service that lose concessions at some time.

[A and C]

It was interesting to see the exacting standards the BA expect from the cabin crew, these standards have no doubt been honed with years of experience but I see a problem on the horizon, BA have introduced the mixed fleet on a low pay grade and I would guess that the type of people who can meet these standards won't hang around too long and gain experience on this sort of money.

So how do they intend to keep the up and coming supervisors and people who can run the first class service when the people on the old contracts retire ?

I wonder if it will be the same surprise to bean counters as the maintenance engineer shortage when they ditched the apprenticeship program. Suddenly they have a big shortage of skilled people and wonder why it takes three years to train new people.

Now I know you can turn new cabin crew out in short order but do you want people who are just out of training looking after customers who have paid £9K for a ticket ?

[cessnapete]

I don't think BA want expensive long service CC anymore. The turnover of Mixed Fleet is much lower than BA had expected and planned for.
Much more flexible ie mixed type/ Long Haul/Short Haul mix, and less double night layovers which the old contract crew refused to do.
The change to Mixed Fleet on the Sydney service 777 route alone for example,has saved BA in excess of £3 mil PA,crew cost, hotel, and Allowances.
In my experience a good MF crew are indistinguishable from the old lot, apart from the hats, and they smile more!!

[ExSp33db1rd]

It is only those with a shorter length of service that lose concessions at some time.bar none

Correct, but it is a new dictate that has only just been introduced, and retrospectively applied to the long retired - the only ones that are effectively being kicked out - to make room for present staff to take advantage of new "perks" - like taking a different "friend" every 6 months.

I don't begrudge present staff being able to enjoy better benefits, I just want what I signed up for, was promised, and worked for, which incidentally helped forge the airline that the present architects of this decision now have the privilege of "managing".

When QANTAS introduced a similarly restricted scheme, the long retired were left severely alone, couldn't take advantage of any new benefits, but were guaranteed what they had worked for. How enlightened and considerate.

Note that IBERIA staff can keep their benefits for life, as originally promised, and incidentally travel on BA services, as can any retiree from other airlines that BA have an "agreement" with, taking seats now so cruelly denied BA's own retirees. Barstewards.

[GrassRootsFlying]

As I understand it a lifetime of service will provide you with staff travel until the end of your lifetime.

ExSp33db1rd

I think Bar None's comment was slightly tongue in cheek and centered around your claim of a lifetime of service.



regards

[ExSp33db1rd]

GrassRootsFlying

Maybe, point taken, ( tho' I did note that ! ) makes no difference to the action of BA's present management to their "older" retirees tho', but if you'll never grow old, and never retire and so never be subject to BA's lack of ethics in this regard, so why worry ?

Never say never, be careful what you wish for.

[GrassRootsFlying]

Ok. Some of us ex Bealiners did not base our retirement around staff travel so really don't care.
Regards

[yotty]

If you look at the Board's profile, 10-20 years ago the directors mostly had quite a few years service with BA themselves. As time has gone on the Board's experience within BA has diminished considerably. Hence less loyalty to existing staff. With regard to Engineers A and C is quite right. The lack of a proper apprentice scheme means in my department the youngest ex-apprentices are close to 40 years old now. Over the last 20 plus years BA has failed to recruit any significant number of new entrants and that leaves a yawning gap to the 18 year olds starting now. :rolleyes:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Ok. Some of us ex Bealiners did not base our retirement around staff travel so really don't care.Typical BA attitude, You're alright Jack, so clearly you don't care, fair enough, why should you?

Did Bealine fly far enough away to need Staff Travel ?

Goodbye.

[exeng]

Nobody builds their retirement around staff travel. I'm sure ex speedbird did not.

However he (as were many of us) were made promises which quite simply were not kept. Bit like the BA pensions fiasco where we were promised that those of us who elected to stay in APS (and not take the money) would be protected. Won't go into the details of the mess that followed but ex speedbird will have the full picture.

Such promises keep one loyal to the airline be it ex daylight division or long haul baron. To break those promises is quite simply immoral - that is BA management.

Back on subject. The program was OK although I'd had enough of Cabin Crew training and went off to the study for a fag. The silly 19 year old who couldn't speak properly should never have been taken on in the first place - felt sorry for her because BA screwed up yet again in the interview process.

The large fellow who was given the boot. As always you feel for anybody who fails - but that is life and I hope he learns something from it all. (Looking at the big hand and the little hand will be a good start)

The bubbing after the big chap got the boot left me in a bit of amazement. In life people sometimes fail - we don't all have to take a 15 minute bubbing break. Have a chat with him later and buy him a couple of pints - all sorted (oh and tell him what the big hand and the little hand actually mean)

All in all not a bad prog for the Beeb and good free advertising for BA.

I will get the Mrs (ex longhaul purser) to watch the other progs and let me know if any are worth catching up on.

Very much looking forward to anything on engineering in BA. Also interested in in Flt Ops as I went over to the 'dark side' from engineering many years ago.


Kind regards
Exeng

[ExSp33db1rd]

exeng - thank you.

Such promises keep one loyal to the airline...........


Precisely - guess which airline won't be getting the remnants of my pension for air travel from now on ? Don't give a stuff.

[Malone]

I believe that you are now entitled to concessions on retirement equal to your years of service. If you have served 30 years and retire at 65 then you are entitled to your concessions until you are 95. I would think that the last thing you would want to do at that age would be to be on Stand-by and have to run to the gate!!
I have my concessions for another 5 years but I hardly ever use them as I would rather go as a commercial passenger (the fares are not that different now).
The old deal was no doubt better but the new one is not too bad really, as far as I am concerned anyway.

[Dick Fisher]

Episode 1. Cabin crew member briefing colleagues..."we have a chablais (sic) here which is a chardonnay, :ugh:

[rolandpull]

Looking forward to the training segment where cabin crew learn to eat during boarding and and at the same time how to ignore a pax with a missing seat belt.

As for the touchy feely sacking, and sharing the 'pain' with the group with a 5 minute recess, priceless.

[X767]

I switched off when I heard the tyro stewardess saying " I like my red wine with diet coke"

[Capetonian]

I'll stick to easyJet for my European flights, at least they don't suffer from delusions of grandeur and you know what to expect, consistently pleasant and friendly service and not a bunch of prissy queens and arrogant tarts.

[Hipennine]

"Episode 1. Cabin crew member briefing colleagues..."we have a chablais (sic) here which is a chardonnay, :ugh:"

Err, Chablis is made with the Chardonnay grape. Chablais in Switzerland, although famous for Chasselas also has a small acreage producing Chardonnay, so either interpretation is correct:ok:

[76fan]

exeng:-
"good free advertising for BA" ..... I don't think so, there are several airlines I would choose before BA!

[Jwscud]

Let's not forget that next week we get to see some young hero future Nigels in the A320 next week. Should be worth a laugh or two. I bet they don't show the bit where they go "what's it doing now?" :}

Actually, some interesting CRM points from the one last night - their man in New York was busy trying to tell their Ops where a Captain could and couldn't divert to as it would make things too tough for them looking after pax. While I agree you should be thinking about commercial, ops will quite happily lead you down a nasty dark blind alley should you let them - in this case, "that short, contaminated runway with RVR550 OVC002 has lots of nice empty hotel rooms nearby, Captain"

[lucavigg]

The bit I found most ridiculous in the first episode was the idea that a buckle from a shoulder bag making a small scratch in the plastic around some FC seat would result in precious time wasted buffing it out or repairing it. Maybe for the inaugural flight but not every single time it happens. Any passenger that complains about a minuscule scratch like that should be shown the door. (at 30,000 ft)

The point about food is also well made. BA have always done this. They try to feast the eyes and not the palette. Some foods just don't work at 30,000 ft and soufflé is just barmy. More relevant to the ego of the chef than the passenger.

L

[ExSp33db1rd]

"that short, contaminated runway with RVR550 OVC002 has lots of nice empty hotel rooms nearby, Captain"

Quite. A colleague of mine once nearly came a cropper because of that.

Operating Perth - Auckland, we carried Island Reserve, not a designated alternate, but due to the AKL - slightly - dodgy forecast he demanded extra fuel to make Sydney, not popular but he did it anyway.

At ToD AKL it was very foggy, and not expected to clear anytime soon, so gleefully diverted to SYD, with an " I told you so" expression.

Shortly afterwards the Company rep. asked why he was going to SYD with a load of pax. travelling to New Zealand when Christchurch was wide open and clearly within range. So.... he turned back - I know, I know, but he did.

Arriving at CHCH. it proved to be even more foggy than AKL, so with AKL having a better ILS, and facilities ( in those days at least ) and a 'possibility' of a midday clearance, he went back to AKL, held until fuel was a consideration, and eventually cobbled up the auto-land and never did see the ground until they automatically landed on it.

He had a well known, voluble, Flt. Engineer. He said "Dave" was very quiet on that approach !

I think he was exonerated on the grounds of incorrect Met. information, dunno, long time ago now, but knowing NZ, quite likely !

[paully]

Great programme..It reminded me why I love flying so much with the Scouse Cabin Crews of Easyjet. The wannabee`s they had dug up sounded like a chorus line from Roedean School and the only one with with a normal accent got fired.

It made you think that if you were unfortunate enough to be flying economy with this circus you would be well and truely looked down on as failure who could`nt afford business or above (half of those flying said class couldnt afford it on their own either)..

If you want to know how bad they are ask Capt Peter Birkhill

[ExSp33db1rd]

I know I keep banging on about loss of Staff Travel, but we took our last trip a few months ago and yes, we were upgraded, thank you, and yes I was wearing jacket and tie, thank you (unlike them what had paid full price for their seats) but No, we weren't allowed to have a tablecloth to eat our meal off, 'cos we were "staff", and No, we weren't allowed knapkins, either. I helped myself to paper towels out of the toilet. I kid you not.

I'm truly glad that now I will be paying full fare like everyone else, I won't have to put up with B.A. ever again. I have a choice now. (and I won't have to travel with a tie, either !)

And No, I didn't watch the film, "Contents not available in your location" I'm glad to say, I'll keep my memories of how it used to be. "BOAC Takes Good Care Of You" used to be the slogan, World's Favourite ?? Yeah ! Right !

Goodbye.

[bar none]

Exsp33db1rd

Why did you wear a jacket and tie?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

You don't have to marry her, B.A. staff can now nominate a "travel companion" - who need not be related, and also have no connection whatsoever to B.A. - to take with them at the same "Staff Travel" rates, and ..change that nominee every 6 months, that's a potential 90 strangers over a possible lifetime career ! Make friends with one, NOW !

To achieve this B.A. have terminated Staff Travel concessions to those of us who gave a lifetime of service, and were promised concessions for the rest of our retirement as a result. "Integrity" is not a word known to B.A. management.


Exsp33 yes sorry slightly tongue in cheek Mrs Angry is ex BA and also had staff travel for her life and it will "expire" soon so then i will be on the market for a No2 younger version (again tongue in cheek)
Rest assured those that make the rules won't loose their travel:\

[ExSp33db1rd]

Mr Angry from Purley

Rest assured those that make the rules won't lose their travela.k.a. one Willie Walsh.

note - he's not taking on Iberia - they keep theirs !

I guess another Spanish Armada is more than he can cope with - we're a bit short of Francis Drakes' these days !

[BOAC73]

There is only one staff travel rule for Willie and co. It's have whatever you like, whenever you like. Having said that, Lord King is rumoured to have insisted on being downgraded when the premium cabins became full.
B73.

[B314]

"The speech of some of the girls was appalling."

Capetonian - couldn`t agree more. I`m afraid that is part of a general malaise affecting society - the dumbing down of good grammer in preference to a patois that comes from God knows where."

Often found in working class mixed ethnicity schooling environments where different pronunciations of certain English words occurs and influenced by certain "street speak" accents which, in the case of one of the applicants, would immediately be picked up by those who may feel only Oxford English should be heard on a (very) British Airline. I wonder how say an applicant with a broad Geordie, Glaswegian or Kerry accent obtaining no snapshots would fare?

Reminiscent of BBC attitudes many years ago?

[G-F0RC3]

I don't think the girl getting the boot had anything to do with her accent. From what I saw she treated most of the process like a silly school drama class. She was very immature, disrespectful, and unprofessional; and her story on how she came to want the job in the first place was less than convincing.

[mog745x]

I found it interesting how BA can demand such high standards from new recruits when they are paying them peanuts. Guess a lot only do it for the CV then move on to better paid things

[Malone]

They got rid of this rule a long time ago. It was obvious why as you could tell a staff passenger a mile off. Talk about overdressed, we used to have a little game to fill in the time, "spot the staff passenger"!! Almost as amusing as "spot the free upgrade request"!:)

[on time all the time]

...indeed B314. but is it grammer or grammar?

[uffington sb]

on time.

B314 was quoting from post 5.

I don't know how Jody made it past the initial interviews.

[vulcanised]

I don't know how Jody made it past the initial interviews.


Clue: It's the BBC She's black.

[Capetonian]

Shirley you're not trying to imply that the BBC has a racial bias ........ Shirley!

[crewmeal]

Tattoo or no tattoo............

Student has her dream job as BA cabin stewardess dashed because she has a tattoo on her FOOT | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2657931/Student-dream-job-BA-cabin-stewardess-dashed-tattoo-FOOT.html)

Personally I think tattoos look ugly and do not do the BA uniform justice despite what those stupid comments. By the way please don't call me Shirley :D

[G-F0RC3]

The BA application does ask if you have any tattoos. But I seem to recall (although I might be mistaken) that it suggests it's only an issue if it's visible while wearing your uniform.

[Capetonian]

Apparently 'Jodie' failed, so a small part of my faith in BA (and perhaps the BBC) has been restored. That she even got beyond the initial filtering worries me though.

[The Moo]

Or as its now referred to by younger gold card holders.

The Only Way is Essex Fleet or just plain old Essex Fleet.

My experience is " Would you like some bubbles ? "

Reply " Don't you mean Champagne ? "

Answer " Don't know , Bubbles ? "

[vctenderness]

When I joined the only tattoos were on ex hairy arsed matelots who had to wear long sleeved shirts all the time.

I'm not sure if any of them had tattoos on their feet though!

I'm sure at some point in the future a New Zealand Maori will apply to BA complete with full facial tattoos and then take them to court if they are refused a job.

Whatever happened to the ex Rodean and Cheltenham ladies college recruits who filled the role of 'A' lady and ran the First class cabin like a smart Knightsbridge cocktail party:ok:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Whatever happened to the ex Rodean and Cheltenham ladies college recruits who filled the role of 'A' lady and ran the First class cabin like a smart Knightsbridge cocktail party

Ahhh ! that was in the days of "BOAC Takes Good Care of You"

BA is a different animal.

[Baltic Skies]

I had to laugh at the bit I saw featuring the guy who gets awarded gold stars or suchlike, for sitting drinking tea in the exec lounge with little old ladies, whilst his colleagues are run ragged in the check-in hall.
for a moment I thought it was David walliams doing a Little Britain scetch !

[G-F0RC3]

I thought the same regarding that part! :p

[CrabbitOldBugger]

And this is for our prime customers, oh, em, but all of our customers are prime, of course. And FO Andy - get a haircut.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Would you like a complimentary glass of orange juice and a glance at the Daily Mail....Happy Flightings.

The priceless moment when the pilot-to-be who said "and all the problems that passengers bring" was a particularly amusing customer-service oriented soundbyte....bet BA didn't approve that in the final edit.

Am I correct with my hearing that those guys are bonded for 84000 quid and will earn 30000 quid once qualified. Wowsers :eek::\:mad:

[d71146]

Don't wish to appear rude but FO Andy I could recommend a good barber.
Having said that the best of luck in your career I am sure you will make a good four ringer in years to come.

[Capetonian]

and all the problems that passengers bringIt has often been said that the airline industry would be perfect if it weren't for passengers.

[FullTanks]

"All the problems that passengers bring......."
For all of us who have had years of experience, that is a comment born of pragmatic realism. Over 35 years many of the operational problems with which I had to deal involved passengers......late, missing, drunk, smoking in toilets, scared, or even bypassing Special Branch when late for the last Belfast etc, etc.
Oh, and how about the sectioned mental patient who escaped from hospital and managed to board the aircraft...........an actual event on a command route check I was conducting. Rather naughtily I told the captain under check that she was also sitting next to a nun with a guitar, ('Airplane' reference, in case you are too young to have seen the film).
From the age of 20 I was served my flightdeck lunch over the Atlantic by BOAC 'A' ladies - they were wonderful......I should know, I married one. Those on the programme, selected for filming, were a completely different type for what is now a completely different airline, operating in a different World. I'm sure that if BA had wanted to recruit similar CC to those it chose 40 to 50 years ago they could have done so; the pay back then wasn't that good either, although the pound went a little further and overseas allowances were generous. The quality of staff is in the hands of the recruiting team; if senior management are not completely happy with the end product perhaps they should start by replacing the recruiters. It was very obvious that some CC hopefuls had managed to 'slip under the wire', only to be humiliated by the programme makers.
The cadet pilots in the last programme deserve all due credit for succeeding in their chosen careers. For me, they were as obviously pleased, proud and 'chuffed' as I once was as a 19 year old on a BOAC 707 course. I wish them all good luck.

[G-F0RC3]

Am I correct with my hearing that those guys are bonded for 84000 quid and will earn 30000 quid once qualified. Wowsers

On top of their £30k+ BA are paying them £1000 per month (tax free) for the first seven years of employment to cover the £84k. ;) Besides, £30k+ is only the starting salary; it goes up quite significantly in subsequent years. :)

[G-F0RC3]

All the problems that passengers bring...

I wouldn't take this comment out of context. They were talking about what to expect from the course and Andy was saying why it's different to what they'd done until then. Perhaps it would have been better to talk about the additional challenges passengers bring, but that's clearly the sentiment in what he did say and no disrespect was intended. I'm sure the vast bulk of people watching are clever enough to recognise this.

[kirungi1]

G-FORC3

I'm with you on this one but would add the context of predicting. I think Andy sets his mind condition beautifully by expecting grit behind the deck and now is in the mood of developing his resilience :ok:

[Pull what]

Was amazed by the comment of the male trainee after his mate on the course had been sacked for his 4th snapshot. Apparantly his 4th snapshot was for being 2 minutes late to the classroom, this guy moans to the camera, it's not fair he was sacked for 2 minutes, isn't that what airlines have airport standby for?!!
Priceless, suspect next weeks episode there may be a second sacking!

I remember being at an airline meeting chaired by a director on punctuality. The director turned up two minutes late to talk about on time departures! Thankfully both the airline and that director are no longer around. Airlines sell 'time' , customers travel on aircraft primarily to save time, not much else. Cabin crew (and flight deck) need to be reminded of this from time to time.

[kirungi1]

Pull What, #86 is such a great post. Time is of the essence. That said, I believe poor management of it at every level is one of the airlines' biggest problems and, of course, other variables.
I was on this flight yesterday which pushed back early leaving behind passengers then flying real fast to arrive almost 30 minutes before ETA. Without any doubt they were burning more fuel only to wait for an open gate. This is why I have my choice over certain airlines.

[FullTanks]

G-F0RC3
I totally agree with your view regarding Andy's comment about encountering passengers, and their associated problems, for the first time and shared my own in my previous post. I do think that Dirty Sanchez had rather misinterpreted the statement.
Perhaps he also needs to appreciate that the BA FPP scheme is just about the best opportunity out there in the current employment market. It may be expensive, but the eventual contract, offered only upon successful completion of the course, is for a permanent, pensionable position on a modern jet. With many now considering that, with airlines requiring not only a valid type rating, but also experience on that particular type, the opportunities to transfer between type and airline have become seriously limited, and possibly even a cul de sac if on a turbo prop.
I have met many of the initial intake and they have not entered into this training lightly, but in a seriously considered manner. All respect to them for having the courage of their convictions and the demonstrated ambition to succeed.

[FullTanks]

Apologies to all cabin crew reading this.
Although this thread started a commentary on the recent TV programme, and in fact most comments are still related to the views and situations depicted there, I do feel that a slight thread drift may mean that some of us should perhaps be commenting elsewhere.
I rest my case.

[cessnapete]

It was noticeable in the programmes the Instructors did not give out a great impression.
All the candidates were trim well turned out and "height proportional to weight" (not fat!)
The Instructors were all tubby ladies/queens!!

[PPRuNeUser0172]

I totally agree with your view regarding Andy's comment about encountering passengers, and their associated problems, for the first time and shared my own in my previous post. I do think that Dirty Sanchez had rather misinterpreted the statement.


No I didn't. My point was what a fantastic soundbyte, which I am sure did not sit well with the 'customer first' management. I am sure that it was edited out of context for that very purpose. I am clever enough to deduce that the FO who said it probably did so without meaning to infer that passengers are problematic, which brings me back to my original point that these fly on the wall docu-soaps are very good at polarising their content.

Perhaps he also needs to appreciate that the BA FPP scheme is just about the best opportunity out there in the current employment market. It may be expensive, but the eventual contract, offered only upon successful completion of the course, is for a permanent, pensionable position on a modern jet. With many now considering that, with airlines requiring not only a valid type rating, but also experience on that particular type, the opportunities to transfer between type and airline have become seriously limited, and possibly even a cul de sac if on a turbo prop.
I have met many of the initial intake and they have not entered into this training lightly, but in a seriously considered manner. All respect to them for having the courage of their convictions and the demonstrated ambition to succeed.

Couldn't agree more. Fair play to all the FPP candidates, hugely competitve and a credit to them for being selected - that was not my point. I do think it is disgusting how much financial risk is placed on the individual but sadly indicative of the wider industry.

Although in the CC forum, the topic title is about the whole series which doesn't just focus on the CC.

[FullTanks]

Thanks for clarifying that, Dirty Sanchez. Apologies if I misinterpreted your comments. As always, in any fly on the wall documentary, participants are at the mercy of the programme makers. I wholly agree with your remarks about the financial commitments demanded in order to enter this industry, one only hopes that it is money well spent. At least in the case of the BA FPP scheme the outlay is recoverable, albeit over a 7 year period, which effectively bonds the successful candidate until it can be repaid. Of course, when interest rates start to rise the non-recoverable element over and above the £84k, will take on an even greater significance as the interest owed accrues over effectively a 9 year period.

[G-F0RC3]

I do think it is disgusting how much financial risk is placed on the individual but sadly indicative of the wider industry.

To be fair I think the BA FPP is one of few programmes out there which can genuinely be excluded from the above comment. British Airways can act as guarantor for the cadet loan (instead of a relative's house acting as guarantor), and on top of that the bond is repaid by BA when employed. So BA are taking much of the weight of the otherwise monumental financial barrier. Without such an opportunity there's no way I'd have ever been able to feasibly afford to start training for an ATPL+TR, which surely exemplifies the inclusivity of the programme compared with others. :)

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Well glad we are all in agreement! My initial question was out of ignorance of the FPP and the TV program implied individuals would owe 84 grand and earn 30 grand - I was unaware, never having been in a position to need to know, what the arrangement was for repaying the dosh. So providing they stay in BA's employ for 7 years they recover all the outlay? Any cadet would be foolish to want to leave BA, despite the banter of many on here, it surely must be one of the best aviation jobs going when the whole package is considered.

[G-F0RC3]

If you intend to spend the rest of your career working for BA then being bonded to them for seven years isn't a negative point - it simply doesn't make a difference. :cool:

Not that cadets have a huge choice in today's industry, but I still believe most UK-based cadets would rather fly for BA than any other airline. And I do think other airlines should take BA's example with their recruitment programmes and shoulder some of the financial burden - even if it doesn't seem pragmatic from a purely business perspective. But as to not deviate far off topic I won't delve deeper into it than that.

On the whole I thought "A Very British Airline" was quite good - and certainly interesting. Clearly some of it has been dramatised for television purposes - particularly the cabin crew recruitment where I believe things were made to appear tougher than they actually were (only two failed after all).

[kirungi1]

Apparently 'Jodie' failed, so a small part of my faith in BA (and perhaps the BBC) has been restored. That she even got beyond the initial filtering worries me though.

I think praise goes to both Recruitment and Jodie for trying that hard to align their expectations and objectives. It just shows how far reaching in depth recruitment would go to unlock one's potential if there is genuine interest and passion for the role.
I have to say, but I stand to be corrected, that pitching attitude with aptitude to raise the profile of a crew member to an acceptable altitude of BA is by far the biggest handicap for recruitment and training and you could see this well even with the BA FPP trainees.
I think management has done well in recruitment and training with the challenges / variables of this age and they deserve credit for embracing change which might just be enough to sustain the business.

[G-F0RC3]

Well do we really know how hard Jodie worked actually? For sure she said she worked hard, but anyone could say that. I'm not sure she even understood what she was really trying to align herself with. She moaned about getting up early (which is an important part of the job); she couldn't serve passengers food and drink without giggling like a schoolgirl; she pretended to speak French to a "French" passenger even though she couldn't speak a word of it. On top of all that her story about finding a message in a bottle which inspired her to the role seems highly contrived. The above points - and many others besides - suggest to me that Jodie was out of her depth from start to finish. It's a pity this wasn't recognised earlier in the recruitment process for Jodie's sake as well as everyone else; it was never going to end well for her.

I have to say, but I stand to be corrected, that pitching attitude with aptitude to raise the profile of a crew member to an acceptable altitude of BA is by far the biggest handicap for recruitment and training and you could see this well even with the BA FPP trainees.

Not sure what you mean by this? In my view attitude and aptitude are inextricably linked to the role of a pilot. You could have the best hand-eye co-ordination in the world but it's irrelevant if you do not care about the company and its objectives. Likewise, you could be the most passionate person in the world, but if you can't fly straight and level then you're never going to make a good pilot. It's unsurprising that recruitment looks to obtain candidates who demonstrate both. :)

[kirungi1]

Not sure what you mean by this?

Recruitment will identify potential which is then exposed to state-of-the-art training facilities. So growth is attained in attitude and aptitude to acceptable values.
I doubt that Jodie got to that level without demonstrating potential, no! BA has so many sieves in recruitment to come through; Some might have good and first hand knowledge of this but IMVHO it's a question of genuine interest and passion or attitude that gave way.

[Noobyflewby]

I can vouch for Lord King as he once sat next to me down the back after vacating his seat in First and finding there was no seat in Business either.













His mantra was "if someone is paying to travel they must have my seat."







I asked other CSDs about this afterwards over the years and several had moved him out of First or Business at his insistence on busy flights.

[TightSlot]

It's been a while since I've posted and this seems as good a place to start as any!

I thought that what was done to Jodie (Jody?) was cruel. Three days before the end of the six week training course and they fired her?

My issue was that I didn't believe that she should have been there in the first place: She should have been screened out at interview and failing that, she should have been let go much earlier in the course once it became apparent that she wasn't going to fit. She seemed a nice enough person, well-meaning and pleasant, if rather un-worldly, it's just that she wasn't right for the job.

So what was she doing there in the first place?

I think that letting somebody get through virtually the entire training course only to fire them on a technical breach just before graduation is cruel and smacks of an arrogance that is unappealing.

I watched all three episodes: I disliked BA before and have not been influenced to change my position. I recall one of the Trainers complaining that a trainee had offered a customer a choice of Diet Coke or "Full Fat". This, apparently, was not at all the sort of thing that BA or their customers want. If that statement is accurate, then I don't really want to be trapped in a metal tube with people that think like that: If it is not accurate, then they have some real issues in the Training department.

As I look back on my flying career, I sometimes wonder what happened to the other way of working as a Flight Attendant that involved some, if not all, of these words - Calm, quiet, assured, adult, experienced, pleasant, open, friendly, competent, worldly, approachable, knowledgeable, professional. So much of the FA culture that I see today is conducted like a TV chat show, at a near hysterical pitch where almost everybody is either Alan Carr or Kerry Katona - apart from anything else, it is exhausting.

[Capetonian]

I watched all three episodes: I disliked BA before and have not been influenced to change my position.
Ditto, if anything I dislike BA more now than before.

[crewmeal]

Tightslot - never have truer words been said. I completely agree with your sentiments.

If BA adopt these training standards to new recruits, then they should adopt them across the whole training network and not just for the BBC. I'm sure BA have thousands of applications a year, but more needs to be done to screen the 'Jodies' of the world who look very glamorous but are not competent enough for the job of Cabin Crew. Sadly many of today's youngsters do not have the ability to strike up a conversation or other social skills because of social media and the world of computers. The art of conversation face to face seems to be dying art along with reading and writing skills.

I look back on my flying career with BOAC and recall that the Cabin Crew Manager at the time did not like effeminate or camp men. He thought the best way to single them out was to get the recruitment team to ask if they like ballet. If they did, no job. I can't recall any crew at the time liking ballet!

[fa2fi]

Some Jodie's have and still do slip through the net. There are some exceptional CC at BA but some bad ones too. I was on a UK domestic last week, asked a polite simple question (as ex crew I know exactly how to ask the questions without annoying crew) but I was met with "I'm too busy to talk to you" in a very rude way. Not only was it rude, it was pretty embarrassing for me too - she did later apologise but still, there was no need for it.

If she wants to see what busy is, she should try doing a double GB to BFS on a Friday night on full 180 seat A320s with flight times of 35 minutes! It would have put this half empty A319 flight to LBA into perspective!

But for every awful one there are plenty of good ones. I flew into LHR back in February, left my ipad in the seat pocket and the crew took it and looked out for me in arrivals which they didn't have to do and they saved me a lot of hassle.

You will always get idiots who some how make it through recruitment. I remember day one of my training one candidate turned up with Barbie pink hair, made it through training but thankfully failed the line check. All the stages, checks, exams, snapshots/points, check flights and assessments are all there to try and minimise the amount if idiots who make it through and I felt the show was pretty balanced.

It is a responsible job but there's something very wrong when I see classrooms full of 18 year olds who are training for their very first job. With unemployment recently at record high levels, I struggle to believe that some of the candidates were honestly the strongest performers on their assessment days.

[JB007]

Fine words from Tightslot! A lot of issues in today's airlines can be solved with "Can we please just be adults about this..." I echo the 'exhausting' sentiment towards it all!

On the whole, bit of a PR Flop for BA then!

Have a watch of "Airline:Inside British Airways" on YouTube, fascinating difference in PR!

[crewmeal]

Looks like 'Mixed Fleet' are looking to strike over pay conditions according to "The Guardian'

British Airways cabin crew 'ready to strike' over pay claim | Business | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jun/22/british-airways-strike-action-threat-pay-claim-ba)

I like the bit about recruitment -

A BA spokesman told the Guardian: "Our cabin crew positions attract a high level of applicants due to the competitive package offered, our extensive route network and promotional opportunities. We are currently conducting pay talks with all parts of the airline and any talk of industrial action by one of four cabin crew groups is completely speculative."

From what we've seen on TV there are one or two 'Jodi's' around who don't make it!

[Mr Oleo Strut]

I saw two of the programmes but missed the third. I wasn't impressed by BA and thought they treated their trainees pretty poorly. However, my mind went back 50 years or so to the days when I was in the Customs at Heathrow and dealt a lot with BEA and BOAC. OK, air travel was different in those days but I get the impression that flight crew and cabin staff in those days appeared to be much more professional, efficient, smart and generally competent. No disrespect to modern youngsters, but many of them just don't seem to have the necessary basic life skills or levels of common sense. I remember we used to snigger a bit at how stuck-up some of the senior BOAC Captains were - special cars at the aircraft steps and no crew busses for them, unlike most of the other airlines!

[Andy_S]

Looks like 'Mixed Fleet' are looking to strike over pay conditions according to "The Guardian'

Or the one-third who bothered to take part in the ballot.......

[Mr Optimistic]

Did they perhaps somewhat cynically keep her on as in their view it made good television and allowed them to show how rigourously they work to achieve standards (in their view) ?

[ExSp33db1rd]

I remember we used to snigger a bit at how stuck-up some of the senior BOAC Captains were - special cars at the aircraft steps and no crew busses for them, unlike most of the other airlines! Snigger you might, but they kept the standards up, and now you rightly remark how they are slipping.

As a new co-pilot I was "weaned" on the North Atlantic Barons - as we called them - i.e. those who stayed on the North Atlantic Routes to get their $10 a day subsistence allowance in New York ( covered Breakast, lunch and dinner,that did !)rather then spend their own money down the Eastern Routes, where hotel Full Board was paid for, and no cash allowance e.g. no "beer money".

We DON'T use Christian names on the flight deck, I was once admonished - I had to call him Sir! and he called me Mr. and I was his co-pilot !

Good Old Days.

[crewmeal]

Oh yes and a certain BOAC Capt would only speak to the cabin crew via the FO. 'Would you ask the Capt what he'd like beef or chicken' 'Ask the Capt if he'd like tea or coffee' Sugar lumps only allowed on the flight deck. Napkins always had to be used.

[vctenderness]

The most infamous of all old school Captains required the full Monty when speaking to him so it was Captain Gillette Sir and nothing else!

Each crew member was required to present themselves to him give name, rank and working position and use the words as above.

He used to carry his suitcase on the flight deck as it had a tendency of going missing or being run over by baggage trucks or being left out on apron in rain.

That said he did once buy me a beer but didn't want to share my company to enjoy it:}

[Capetonian]

A rather crusty old ex-RAF type I knew who flew for Air Rhodesia always used to tell people, even in a social or non-flying context : "My name is Captain Peter Smith...." (name changed of course.). I saw him almost go apoplectic with rage when someone said : "Is Captain part of your name, or just a title?"

[Sygyzy]

Picture this....A hot summers day at 'Idlewild'. BOAC crew walking from their Stratocruiser to the terminal - led by Capt. O P Jones. Shirt sleeve order, caps to be worn.

He asks his Flight Engineer - 'Tell me Mr Simpson, is my shirt 'blousing' at the back?'

Simpson, looking. 'Er... no sir, it's well tucked in'.

'Good, then you won't mind my telling you that yours is!'

Those were the days.


S:ok:

[ExSp33db1rd]

.............a certain BOAC Capt would only speak to the cabin crew via the FO.

You mean he SPOKE to the cabin crew ?

As S.O./ Nav. in the jump seat for take off, I witnessed one ask his F/O to - quote- "Tell Mr. XXX ( the Flt. Eng.) that I require take off power"

A friend, flying as co-pilot, once had to remind the Capt. that he - the Capt. - was getting a bit slow on approach to landing, and after a couple of totally ignored reminders grabbed a handful of throttles and pushed them forward. After landing the Capt. said " If you ever touch MY throttles again, they will be the last throttles you touch in BOAC "

Happy Days ? Maybe. Then we had the Trident Papa India crash on to Staines, with suggestions that the Capt. Queeg attitude of the Commander had some bearing on events ?

[ExSp33db1rd]

He used to carry his suitcase on the flight deck...........Reminds me .... crew used to buy baskets of fruit from the Nairobi market, but due to their weight they were advised to liase with the Captain as to the likelihood of the aircraft being able to flight plan direct to London, or make a refuelling stop in Rome before making their purchases that day? It was assumed that the Capt. might have some idea of the need for every litre of fuel for that days' departure, unlikely as that seems today.

One of our noteable martinets was walking around the aircraft prior to departure and noticed a clutch of fruit baskets with the suitcases awaiting loading into the rear hold, and said to the loaders " nobody asked my permission to carry fruit, that one is mine, put it on and leave all the others behind"

On arrival at London, the crew bus driver went up the rear steps and told the crew that there was only 1 basket of fruit to put on the bus, where were all the others ? Eventually the Captain was told of the lack of fruit, and he explained that nobody had asked his permission, so he had given orders to leave them all behind, except his. When the crew left the aircraft they found a basket of fruit squashed under the wheels of the bus. "Terribly sorry Sir, said the driver, 'fraid I backed up and never saw it, I did"

[crewmeal]

Back on track apart from technology how has training in Cranebank changed since the 70's? Going back even further I've seen clips on youtube where crew practise serving bottle tops to passengers using a spoon and fork. That seems the perfect way to learn the art of service.

From what I've heard there is very little silver service onboard these days as everything is plated up. From watching the chefs in action on that series it seems everything evolves around the oven to perfect some of the food that is presented.

[Mr Mac]

Have just had chance to catch up on this series as I have been away and not noticed it. I am not a regular BA flyer anymore, so will not comment on the attitude, or eloquence of cabin crew, as I have observed similar issues with UK born EK crew on a flight 6 months ago, so not just BA issue I would suggest, maybe UK personnel attitude issue. We are not what we once were perhaps ?, I do not know. Did make me smile about the unaccompanied children though, as I was one of those with BCAL in the late 60/70s up from Santiago to school, and the farewells were always a little fraught (Sorry Auntie Julie but I was only 8 on that first trip - and I nearly gave you the slip in Rio so I could go home !). Also found the attitude of the Gold Card hunter difficult to take, also all the corporate responsibility stuff re their Cargo arm(dedicated freighters ) which has now been canned with their jobs gone.


Regards
Mr Mac

[kirungi1]

Mr Mac,

Yes, BA's face has changed over the years but the company's traditional values haven't. The ultimate objective is customer satisfaction and so repeat business from customer retention. Has BA done that? I would like to say yes, to a good enough extent. You had very fine words there.
I will praise BA for taking the courage over the years in being flexible with competition and adapting with it. BA has had options for example of choosing to move down levels (low cost, et la) in it's service but this would have highly impacted the quality of the product/service and so customer satisfaction would have suffered. So changing the face of the Airline in line with competition and of course the market place I think has been such a courage.

Customer feedback and survey take their place in the way BA is run for high impact areas of the business. It has to be that Recruitment and training too adapt to demand. One powerful thing BA has remained in the top half of the competition is it's ability to predict the future. There MUST be a thing or two the company chooses to "select certain candidates" for a role and not the other.:hmm:

My question is would BA thrive in the current competition with that BOAC/BEA product?:zzz:

[Mr Mac]

Kirungi 1
I think I would have to disagree with you on the traditional values, as I believe they have changed, and not for the better. You site BOAC / BEA both of which I flew with, and yes I would like to go back to that era of service, along with the more modern technology which is now available on Airbus and Boeing products. Unfortunately due to the age of some of the BA fleet the tech does not always work, and the service is not what it was IMHO.
As for customer satisfaction I would suggest that some one comes to Manchester after the shuttle has been cancelled again, and if not then go with "Fred the baggage drop man" when he is off on tour dropping missed connection bags all over northern England !. But I would suggest the best place to ask for Feedback would be in the bar on the Manchester EK 380, and ask why these high yield customers are there, and not on BA. It maybe that although the program was called a "Very British Airline" we in the north who used to use them, were left high and dry when they cut and ran from the regions, and have found more than suitable replacement's on long and short haul, be them LOCO or full service. So in the end I would not be tempted to return to fly with them on a regular basis on the back of this program. I think we will have to agree to differ but thank you for your post.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Fantome]

The general slack pronunciation you hear today on the OZ domestics is a pain in the arse. 'Eggs-its' for exits. 'Depart-cha' for departure.

Don't want to hear a toffee accent .. . . just good clear annunciation

ps - thank you tightslot for that spot on post..... bewdy!

[kirungi1]

Mr Mac

#119 is another great post but how I wish I could win you back for BA. Your business over the years and in the future defines this company. IMHO, management runs the company as a portfolio of customers with the purpose of maximising the value of customer relationship. Therefore it's critical to understand how your experience in the present can serve as an indication of the future behaviour and thus customer feedbacks and surveys. It's from this information and others that BA makes predictions for it's operations in high impact area.

BA's target is to be efficient with it's SH operations to feed the LH routes from LGW & LHR using cost effective means (fleet choice) in line with competition. I will understand why EK will use an A380 up north while BA will use an A380 to say Los Angles - long haul. Would EK operate an A380 from Dubai to Doha? I'm not too sure! It's essential BA ulitlises London effectively just as say EK makes good use of Dubai as hub.
For a company to operate in such a crowded air space and airport (LHR) with high fixed costs and competing with heavily subsidised companies while operating flights worldwide, I think deserves a mark of respect and admiration. It's that spirit of innovation and resiliency, that creativity and toughness that is captioned in that "A Very British Airline". It's also worth to note that British human resource personnel has revitalised aviation worldwide and so has character and attitude. EK and the "Unmentionable airline" have hugely benefited from this right from top management.
That said, I agree and accept with your fine words and correct me where you can as I'm here to learn.

[Mr Mac]

Kirungi 1
Ok I will bite, and give you a quick synopsis of my last 3nr LH haul BA flights to Nairobi ,Boston and JFK which were the straw that broke this camels back, bearing in mind I was already using EK/SQ for LH going east. All flights in Business or should have been.


New York
Man - LHR ok. Outbound to JFK gave up seat to Chairman as his in flight screen broken. Food patchy, and in comparison with SQ very poor(had flown back from lion city 2 days previous so good comparison). Chairman's bags lost !. Very unhappy with BA and me (why me ?, I wanted to fly Lufthansa !). Bags turned up 24hrs later in JFK - we were in Chicago by then !. My bag caught me up 3 days later. Chairmans never seen again !. Return from Philadelphia was ok, with Chairmans new carry on making journey with him, mine in hold I thought - silly me !, returned 24hrs later by "Fred" the white van man.


Nairobi flight
Outbound virtually accused of being an alcoholic for asking for some champagne to make a Bucks fizz at 10.00am by BA T5 ground staff in Club Lounge. Had serious conversation thinking it was a joke - it was not !. In flight entertainment unavailable as screen broke, food poor. CC who I went to speak (I was bored) were complaining about new T&C and rosters, with not a good word about their employer / carrier. Return flight duty free Gin confiscated (bought in Nairobi DUTY FREE) at T5 due to going on to internal flight to Manchester, and should have been told by BA staff in Nairobi according to security T5. Bags did not make connection to shuttle and returned early following day - coffee with "Fred" again, he takes 2 sugars, as I knew him well then, and likes digestives !.


Boston
Flight MAN - LHR delayed due to high wind so connection looking tight. BA got me on flight but no bags, which I can understand, as not BA issue. Not getting my bag for 3 days was their issue. Bag showed up in hotel when BA still saying it was in LHR - GO FIGURE. Return flight got down graded due to over booking (was flying on air miles) at the time, asked for Premium Economy and ended up in Economy. I asked for emergency exit and was told by BA ground staff at Boston "Honey you would have to be here 5 hrs ago to get those seats" !. Flight ok but no comment from CC on my situation, apart from shrug of shoulders, and told to take it up with BA upon my return. LHR - MAN more biscuit's for "Fred" with bag turning up at 8.00pm approx., after normal 05.30 approx LHR arrival.


To put this in context I was a Gold/Silver card holder with BA at the time as well as Silver /Gold with SQ/EK/LH. I have never met a "Fred" from any of those carriers either at home or overseas. I have not been down graded (or up graded yet either !) .They get me were I want to go, with my belongings, with in flight entertainment that works / reasonable meals, from my local airport, with staff, which by and large, are pretty good, with 1nr bad experience with EK as stated earlier.


I really do hope you get BA better, but count yourselves lucky that you are a London based carrier, which is currently the only fully thriving UK economy and you have most of the slots. If you are flying into Europe going via LHR from MAN is generally the long way around. Going further East the Mid East 3 and SQ pretty well cover it for me. Going West and South I use Lufty. Does some times feel odd when going West back over my house at FL38 but I do not go there often . I and my now ex Chairman no longer fly with you, as he pulled company account shortly after his North American adventure. Best of luck with BA. I do agree with you about British expertise running foreign carriers like EK, but does make you wonder why they could not make it in the UK. On the plus side Kirungi 1 Mrs Mac still uses BA to cross the pond once a month, so you have not lost both of us. Happy cone trails.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Hand Solo]

Now I know this is only one point out of many but do you really think its BAs fault that the duty free you bought in Nairobi was confiscated by Heathrow security staff? Would you really expect cabin crew to police the duty free purchases customers bring on board then correlate them with onward connections to determine which purchases comply with regulations?

[kirungi1]

Hand solo

I'm going to agree with Mr Mac on the issue you have picked on. In the environment where the buyer has power than the seller, it can only be right that BA provides it's customers with sufficient information otherwise the customers have a lot of choice. BA staff at Nairobi (at the boarding gates) should/would know the regulations and indeed think ahead of what awaited Mr Mac at T5.
Had someone taken responsibility, perhaps we wouldn't know Mr Mac's other passion and interest.



Mr Mac

I have a lot to learn from your post and I think it's fair to say that your circumstances defy the saying that "it takes two to tangle". Clearly you've met your part of the contract and IMHO, BA hasn't always done as expected. And I can Understand your frustration and withdraw of business.No one wishes to repeat a bad experience. It is vital that BA delivers you to the agreed destination with your baggage and on time as minimum requirement and perhaps we would be talking only about the on board experience.

Can I ask; Has BA sought feed back on your travels over the years or has some one called you or written to you personally? (at any one point say on line, in the lounge, check-in/boarding gate, in flight or call at home)
A sincere apology or effort to remedy a bad situation goes a long way and it's also a tool for learning how to prevent future problems by understanding first hand what BA is doing wrong so that managers learn how to coach and train employees to prevent same problems occurring again.
Obviously, BA is paying the opportunity cost of not getting your complaints instead of dealing with your complaints in the first place. Every customer is valuable but you being a Gold/Silver member and taking that to competition is bad and worse the fact that you wouldn't recommend BA. I treasure Mrs Mac for her loyalty and it's something to build again from. Some people say Mistresses are arbiters of good taste :D

Your delayed baggage claims are unarguable and it's unfortunate that those things have happened. I'm not going to make light of this but airport security, especially to and through New York, has had a hand in these delays. You will ask if the same applied with competition and again I will not know but this has happened to me a few times too.

coffee with "Fred" again, he takes 2 sugars, as I knew him well then, and likes digestives !.
Your mark of humility - it's not a perfect world. Thanks for that. But, does BA want to do better? I think they do after all they have always tried. The future is an extrapolation of the past add some few variables like technology and is BA integrating this? again, I think they are? BA is a leader in this industry and will always be. What Mrs Mac is doing here is following that old adage that history has a tendency of repeating itself.
Mr Mac, have you ever imagined a time when oil will have dried up and competition is even? (especially middle East). There is also a lot of research ongoing about these bio fuels.

I would like to work for BA one day but I don't want to be motivated by money in this. It has to be passion. Your experience of staff unhappiness with T & C again was/is unfortunate because employees have a lot to do with customer satisfaction. I think staff owe BA some loyalty and in good or bad times they have to weather with it just like Mrs Mac has kept her loyalty. Has BA done mistake with labour contracts in the past? I might not be the right one for this (United Airlines has had this issue for years).

I'm going to write to BA about this and if I have your permission, it would be fantastic to reference you in. Winning you back for BA is a challenge but I find a perfect opportunity in it.

[Hand Solo]

Kirrungi - There are no BA staff at the boarding gate in Nairobi, only Swissport. The Duty Free shop is remote from the BA gate and is not controlled by BA. I would suggest its the personal responsibility of the traveller to understand the restrictions on carrying liquids, particularly if transferring through any UK airport. Unless the gin was bought on board the BA aircraft there's nothing the cabin crew can do to assist, it won't be permitted through a UK airport security channel. Whilst Mr Mac has some valid points, some of the complaints are simply the reality of modern air travel with any carrier and are certainly not unique to BA. I recently chatted at length with a former Emirates steward who now worked for BA. He found it ironic that BA passengers often complained that things were better on EK as when he'd crewed the Emirates UK routes he often encountered passengers complaining that things were better on BA!

[kirungi1]

Hand Solo

You have very original grounds and have supported your opinion satisfactorily IMVHO. I find your post very educative especially if one has to ask if customer is always right or should customer run the company?
Basing on your facts, I want to thank you and like to withdraw my defence for Mr Mac :O
I stand to be corrected but haven't I seen BA ground staff supervising outstation at boarding gates with instructions on liquids in the past? :ugh: Wouldn't the same apply for Nairobi? (only an observation).

[Capetonian]

I had a very nasty dispute with BA a number of years ago and consequently strenuously avoided flying on them, particularly out of the station where the events occurred. About 5 years down the road, I checked in for a flight to CPT at T5 and the check in agent must have looked at my FF record and seen that having once flown a lot with them, I had stopped. She asked why and I very briefly explained. She seemed genuinely concerned and asked if she could send a customer service agent to chat to me in the lounge.

Clearly, there are individuals within BA who do care about pleasing customers and who are proud of who they work for, but as an organisation I feel they fall very short of excellent service delivery.

[kirungi1]

Capetonian

How refreshing it is from your fine words after your contact with a customer service agent - some good stuff,yeeee.... I can only sympathise with your other experience.

BA has recently won the UK Top brand award so it's my hope that this will pull the organisation to work together and then the individuals will thrive not the other way round.

Can we hear more of those memorable experiences please, perhaps..... never know, someone is/will read them.

[Mr Mac]

All
To make things Gin clear the products were purchased in Nairobi duty free after check in and first X-Ray. As I am used to travelling in 3rd world I asked if there were any restrictions at that point with transfer, as I have had this before, and that time did not purchase the aforementioned Gin. This time I was told there was no issue by check in staff. If these are Swissport employees working for BA, in BA uniform, then surley they are an extension of BA and should be aware of issues as they only have 1 flight a day now. Any way I think the Gin / champagne are minor issue compared with other problems that I recounted.


Handsolo
Your comment about the other issues being common on all carriers I would have to disagree with as I have yet to encounter any problems like those mentioned with the carriers I now use. Maybe I have been lucky ?. For an example of customer service I will give you Lufty who when the Icelandic volcano blew up transferred me from Frankfurt where I had arrived from Man, to Munich (no ash cloud there) to make a connection to China in a well driven 4 door Porsche with bags and 3 other passengers. My colleagues who were with the worlds favourite airline did not get there. That,s what I call going the extra mile.


Capetonian
I agree some staff do care but I gave up a long time ago trying to get in touch with BA about issues and just chose not to use them as many of my friends and colleagues do in the North of England. However as Mrs M has not had any issues recently (she only goes for 2 days and has carry on) therefore has not met "Fred" yet.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Hand Solo]

Mr Mac,

I'm a little confused as to where (and indeed when) you bought the gin? From your information I'm concluding that you bought it from the official airport Duty Free shop on the departures level and before the second security point at the boarding gate. This leaves me a little confused as they normally confiscate liquids from passengers at this checkpoint. Did they give you one of those security carrier bags at the duty free shop? If not I'm not sure how it got through the security point. If I remember correctly the staff at the security point are G4S and the gate staff are Swissport in Swissport uniforms. Having your gin confiscated at T5 is annoying, I recognise that, but to be honest I'm having a hard time pinning the blame on BA for that. I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for contract gate staff in Africa to police every passengers onward connections and confirm the suitability or otherwise of their DF purchases. It would be nice if they did, but this is Africa and I'm a realist.

You raise the issue of other carriers going the extra mile during the ash cloud, but you've kind of answered it yourself when you said "No ash cloud there". If Lufthansa have the flexibility to operate to China from Munich clear of an ash cloud shutdown then great. Unfortunately BA didn't, through no fault of BA, and if none of their aircraft can fly what do you expect them to do? There isn't capacity to book all of BA's passengers on other carriers, nor to set up much in the way of ad hoc flights should an window of opportunity arrive in the cloud. Nobody did more in the UK to pressure the CAA to lift the ash cloud restrictions, but you seem to be making a point that something that affects BA far more severely than LH was better handled than LH. I'm sure it was, just as BA handled flights to Germany a lot better than LH did when Lufty last went on strike.

I've read your post in detail and to be honest there are some things in there that are BAs fault, others that are not and are inherent to air travel, and some where the blame is unknown.

New York flight: Patchy food: definitely BA's fault. IFE broken: BA's fault but it happens on other carriers too, even Emirates. Bags misconnected: maybe BAs fault, hard to say*. Happens on other airlines too. Bags in JFK, you're in Chicago: Not BAs fault. The bags are sent to their destination airport then forward shipped from there. If you'd be staying some time in Chicago they'd have been sent there but it's hard to hit a moving target.

Nairobi: Alcoholic comment: BA/Contractors fault, not acceptable behaviour, nothing wrong with champagne at 10am in my book! IFE unavailable/poor food: see above. Cabin crew conversation to your liking: not BAs fault, and indeed try getting any form of conversation out of Singapore Girl. Duty Free confiscated: see above. Baggage misconnected: see above*

Boston: Bags delayed: BAs fault*. Downgraded: BAs fault but also happens on pretty much every single other airline in the world plus you'll have got your air miles back so effectively flew for free. No comment from Cabin Crew: not BAs fault. What would you actually expect them to do other than offer tea and sympathy?

*Mishandled bags. All airlines do it, every single one of them. And often you can actually get statistics as to how each airline performs. BA handles in excess of 99.5% of its bags at Heathrow correctly every day, with over 50% of passengers transferring. The vast majority of those 0.5% of mishandled bags are inbound to LHR on a non-BA flight and fail to meet BAs minimum connection time. The baggage system itself at T5 is operated by Heathrow, not BA. There have been two major failures of the system in the last month. The most recent was Heathrows fault. The earlier was due to a worldwide SITA fault which affected numerous airports worldwide. Each of those failures left BA with approximately 20,000 short-shipped bags. Imagine what a row of twenty suitcases looks like. Then times that by a thousand. Then think about how long it'll take to clear that backlog even if you threw all your spare resources at it.

You appear to have been exceptionally unlucky with your bags Mr Mac and I have every sympathy for you, but given that 99.5% of bags transit BAs Heathrow operation without delay each day then you really are a statistical outlier on the bad luck scale. Doesn't make it any better for you I know, but thats the maths of it. You may find a continental hub suits you better, especially if flying from the north, but Frankfurt has it's own problems and a friend who earned his AF/KLM Gold Card the hard way (in the cheap seats) will only travel with hand luggage these days.

In times of disruption I often hear praise for Emirates. I often wonder what people think would happen to their own businesses and livelihoods if a foreign owned competitor, backed by the state, with unlimited resources, low taxation and third world labour costs and social rights, was permitted to set itself up in their home market and flood it with a similar product. Perhaps I might ask them next time.

[Evanelpus]

The last page worth of comments has very little to do with the thread subject, the TV programme "A Very British Airline" but has once again descended into another BA bashing opportunity.;)

[Mr Mac]

Hand Solo
Gin in sealed bag from duty free and went through scaners. But as you say it is Africa, and when back in the UK having my Gin confiscated a school party came through of the same flight were two young men were being relived of lock knifes with 3in blades which had accidently been packed in carry on and not pulled at security. Africa don't you love it.


Evanelpus
I agree with you totally, and will say no more on the matter.






Regards
Mr Mac

[Ancient Observer]

They try. They just do not see that by the standards of the best in the game -consistently excellent delivery of operations and high service standards - they are at best average.

[WorkInProgress]

Mr Mac

I also live in the North of England and amazingly have met Fred!!! This was after our Miami - LHR then LHR - MAN bags did not meet the connection.
Fred absolutely loves BA!!! He earns over £100 per bag (according to him). On the day he arrived at my house his little white van was full to the roof.
He was far too busy for a cup of tea and a digestive.

[crewmeal]

I'll try and get this thread back on topic by saying when I was trained at Cranebank on what to say to passengers when something went wrong be it missing bags, poor quality food, delays etc was good old empathy. Also apologise just once, keep saying sorry and you begin to loose the plot. Nine times out of ten it always worked. However there will always be crew moaning about rosters, the company they work for and relationship problems.

[Capetonian]

Agreed, this whole thing about 'sorry' more than once doesn't work for me, as it doesn't solve the problem, and I tell them that. I'm not interested in how sorry they are, I'm interested in a solution.

In a recent dispute with a bank that messed me around for three months (regular readers of my column will know about this) one of the snotgobblers kept saying : "I can empathise with you ......"

"You can't" I said "because you go to work to do your job and you get paid at the end of every month. I don't get paid for the time and effort I've wasted on this matter, I haven't been able to bank my fee income for three months, , so don't tell me you know how I feel."

[Gibon2]

Ancient Observer really hit the nail on the head:

They try. They just do not see that by the standards of the best in the game -consistently excellent delivery of operations and high service standards - they are at best average.

I think this is a beautifully concise and accurate summing up of BA's entire operation - in the cabin and beyond. And it's not all about money: sure, it helps if you have gleaming new planes and top-notch IFE. But so much of good service relies on good organisation and training - and this doesn't necessarily cost more than bad organisation and training.

An example from I trip I took on SQ: returning from Jakarta, we were delayed by an hour or so due to a tech problem, so missed my connection in Singapore. OK, happens to all airlines. But it's what happened next that made the difference. On disembarking in Singapore, there was an SQ lady waiting at the top of the air bridge, with my name on a sign. She handed me an envelope containing boarding passes for the next flight to Zurich and connection to Geneva, meal, hotel and taxi vouchers, and tourist brochure for Singapore. No queueing, no waiting, no haggling, no hassle - all fixed. I was still inconvenienced, but instead of feeling grumpy about the airline, I left awestruck by the efficiency of the SQ machine.

Now, I'm sure BA and many other airlines would have duly got me on the next flight and provided the requisite meals and accommodation - eventually. But could they turn a grumpy customer into an impressed one? Would it even occur to them to try? Doing it the SQ way needn't cost more (the main cost is in the meals and accommodation), but it does require thought, organisation and planning - as well as the ability to see things from the customer's point of view, rather than the airline's.

[Wannabe Flyer]

It is all about labor costs. SQ, EK and the like will catch up to BA standards (or down) eventually. At that time probably Vietnam air, or Air Cambodia will be lauded as the poster child of air travel.

Mr MAc, I personally don't like BA cause as a family of staff I was privy to some of the training they would conduct, especially profiling........I was the practice dummy at home. However I must say your bags seriously did have bad Karma on that airline and you were better off switching from a Feng Shui point of view!

[Hand Solo]

@Mr Mac - with your gin in a sealed bag I can see no reason why security should have confiscated it, that's the whole purpose of the sealed bag! I fear you may have fallen victim to the tendency of the security staff to be ignorant of/make up the rules as they go along.

On the matter of Eastern airlines service, it's a bit horses for courses. You'll get a much more fawning service on an airline where they hire their staff from a servile culture. The ex-EK steward I spoke to made an interesting comment that in his entire time there almost nobody ever said thank you to him, which he felt reflected greatly on customer expectations there. In BA he is often thanked. Service standards in the West will never be the same as in the East because culturally Western staff won't think or act like domestic servants.

[kirungi1]

Gibon2

BA, like other major western airlines, has been severely affected by increasing fuel costs, labour challenges and fixed costs that it has become much more vulnerable to low-cost competition. The key to this scenario has been for BA to provide a slimmed down service and has tried to be good at it whilst maintaining it presence around the world in a more realistic and sustainable way.
Ask me if the middle East Airlines and the Far East Airlines have had these fuel costs, labour challenges et la scenarios.....Arrh :=
You just have to waddle through this forum to find Pilots of a certain Middle East Airline vent their frustration about their QOL.

I'm neither trying to leap to BA's defence here nor justify it's short comings but with hindsight BA exhibits modern age enterprenual skills by men and women selected and developed in Britain and hence that "A very British Airline" slogan. BA in it's arrogance has the belief that even the very average candidates like "Jodie", given a chance and exposed to their training regime and with a right attitude and passion, can be exceptional. This is the real challenge which competition doesn't ever want to know about. All BA staff are ordinary employee who live ordinary lives next door.

All airlines are in this business to sell time and time is of essence. You will ask me then that why do people still fly BA if competition (with excellent in-flight experience) can offer all these incentives on missed connections, delays et la and yet they all sell time?

BA's objective is to make money for it's shareholders by serving customers well. It does not promise exceeding customer expectations but to meet them normal conditions permitting. And how has it done this? by the basics of the basics in business, the elementary issue of doing well in the future - How should we act today in order to be better off tomorrow - the principal of foresight. Now there are not many airlines which are going to claim to do this but I will state here that this is BA's most secret weapon and that's why BA would rather fly it's customers without IFE but when they've followed schedule. It's not that IFE is not vital but in operation the opportunity cost of delaying a flight basing on a non safety failure highly affects customer satisfaction since your in the business to sell time.

Ask me if it's sustainable to be providing vouchers et la to all customers worldwide every time nature strikes and I will still be sitting here in the loft carrying my head and thinking of what to type.:confused:

I would encourage constructive criticism of BA whilst acknowledging the environment this flagship Airline finds itself in. Your voices are important for this company but how about wonderful programs of relief efforts to Phillipines et la and community projects that BA gets involved in -A mark of real British values. :D

[Mr Mac]

Hand Solo
Quick up date as I do not want to go through everything again. At that time Nairobi airport was not recognised as being secure, and I was shown a list of other international airports world wide when at T5, were duty free would also be confiscated if transiting LHR despite sealed bag.


As for saying thank you to crew on any carrier. I personally make a point of doing this, and indeed have written report and presented to CSD in some circumstances. I believe it is important to say thank you when earned, or even when good practice is observed when dealing with some one else. It promotes good practice, and costs little, and can really makes some ones day if they are having a tough trip.


Regards
Mr Mac

[speedbird_cadet]

I think this just goes to show how important it is not just to have good customer service and operations, but CONSISTENTLY good customer service and operations. Thats hard to do for a lot of reasons.

Mr Mac sounds like a pretty reasonable guy who travels a lot and often in premium cabins - so is the sort of high yield customer that any airline would want to attract, and more importantly keep.

Whilst there might be reasons why Mr Mac has experienced these bad experiences, the fact remains that from his point of view he has had a bad time and so elects to take his business elsewhere because of this.
Its similar to eating in a restaurant, or buying a car, or shopping in a store - when you have choice as a customer often one poor experience can be enough to make you not give someone a second chance... let alone a third, fourth, fifth.
This is the reality of business - the customer is King. (or Queen :O )

[golden_oldie_surfer]

re age of cabin crew - i was 54 when i joined Mixed Fleet, at BA, so age is definitely not an issue. However, remuneration might be, as it is well below the national average for any industry, so first you may like to ensure you can afford to live on the pay. it's not a barrier for all, but i have seen many crew join and then moan or leave because of the pay, although to be fair to BA, the pay is exactly what was/is advertised, so no sympathy really. Fail to plan, plan to fail. Of course, i wish the pay was more, (who wouldn't) and it is better now than it was when MF started in 2010, but no one forced me apply.

re 'customer is king' - i witnessed a customer on the early LHR-MAN go apoplectic because he was not offered a full hot breakfast. Was he right? I have commuted weekly from Cornwall to LHR via National Express for many years. The journey take about seven hours during which i don't find it necessary to eat, drink or use the lavatory and guess what? Ive always arrived fit, healthy and in a good state of mind. Some pax can't seem to go from LHR to HAM with complaining about a lack of food or drink or suddenly decide they absolutely have to use the toilet just as the cabin is being secured for landing.

re the original theme - i am quite old and despair with the choice of words some younger crew use both with each other and pax. Is it really acceptable to describe a meal choice as 'lush', a pax as 'mate' or use the word 'like' liberally in every conversation? Regional accents are of course most welcome, whether Scottish or Essex, but is that an excuse? I live in beautiful Cornwall, so would it be acceptable for me to refer to a pax as 'my 'ansom'?

it may well be and i may be a dinosaur living in a digital world.

re describing regular coke as 'full fat'- it may be relevant to be bear in mind that many of our customers have no or little knowledge of the english language. The word 'Coke' is a global brand and almost universally understood. Tagging on the word 'fat' is both incorrect and misleading, and may cause confusion when serving a non english speaking pax. it is not 'full fat' so why describe it as such.

On a lighter note, i was wincing but had to laugh when the young lady in the BBC programme was trying to speak French in the role play exercise. It reminded me of that policeman in "Allo, 'Allo" comedy on TV "I was p*ssing by", and Peter Sellers Inspector Clouseau "are you trying to make a minky out of me"? Priceless, although quite insulting if you are French, I would imagine.

These are of course only my personal views and i apologise if they do not concur with those of others.

Safe Flying.

[bravofivezero]

Hi, looking forward to another flight with BA. On next Friday mid day flight LHR to GIG then a return flight at a later date. My wife usually orders a Gluten Free meal through ba.com. She now also requires Dairy Free. Do you do option for both Gluten and Dairy free or can you request it? The Ba website only let's you select one of above but not both . Only in WTP this time. Any advise appreciated

[crewmeal]

Me thinks you'd be better off posting this in the British Airways thread. This one deals with the BBC programme.

[Mr Optimistic]

Well this thread is an education. As a 60 year old I would find no offence with other people's accents nor the casualness of harmless phrases like 'full fat'. All seems a little 'Mrs Bucket' to me. I am usually treated much better in the cabin than in my day to day life! I have just come off a long haul and sat there thinking I couldn't do a cc job as I can't hide my contempt at the behaviour of some. Mind you that would also preclude a job on a Tesco checkout. My msg? Get out more and move on!

[harry the cod]

Hands Solo

Not sure what your beef is with EK especially your comment about State backed. Well, if you mean it's owned by the state, you're basically correct. It's owned by the government of Dubai, this being it's major shareholder. The government is to all intent and purpose the Dubai Royal family.

However, Emirates Airlines is not subsidized by the state. Your post implied it is. It's self sufficient and has made a profit every year bar one. Taxes? No, but the Company must provide accommodation to all as well as transport to and from work. Maybe not the same overheads but different and present nonetheless. Whether those profits it makes are indeed on the back of non unionized cheap labour from Third World Countries is another matter and for discussion on another forum.

If we're are talking government aid, Did BA accept the profits from Concorde when it was operational having been given them by the UK government......for free. Stones and glass houses!

Harry

[kirungi1]

Emirates business model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_business_model)


:=

[Hand Solo]

@Harry the Cod - I didn't say Emirates was subsidized by the state. At least not directly. However it is patently obvious what benefits Emirates derives by being considered a strategically important industry to the Emirate of Dubai.

FWIW BA didn't accept any profits from Concorde when it was given the airframes by the state as there were no profits: Concorde was run at a loss by the nationalised airline. When BA was privatised all it's assets were sold by the state to the shareholders. Only the privatised BA made Concorde profitable. What alternative options for the disposal of Concorde aircraft do you think the state had given the huge technical support infrastructure and inventory required to operate seven bespoke airframes? Concorde was only ever a blip in BA's profitability.

[harry the cod]

kirungi1

And you point is......?

Not sure what the waggling finger is for as there's nothing in my post that's unrelated to what's on Wiki. Without wishing to sound condescending, be careful with information garnered via the internet. Anyone can submit 'facts' on the electronic super highway without any validation whatsoever. Wiki is notorious for inaccuracy.

Finding out that your yearly salary as new BA cabin crew is almost as much as one return First class fare to LA hardly speaks volumes for the remuneration from you're own Company. Our 'low paid' cabin crew take home around 25% more per month than a BA starter after tax......and they have free accommodation and transport. I wonder what low cost model BA must be using!

Mr Solo

Let's not even go there regarding previous BA advantages. British Eagle, B.Cal, LAKER, all steamrolled by the mighty BA, Virgin dirty tricks, buying Dan Air for a pound then firing pilots out of seniority. I'm sure there's more. I'd also disagree with your comment that concorde was the only profitability blip in BA! Maybe you should have a quick look back at some yearly reports.

Aside from all that, as a brit myself I'm glad that the Company is doing well. It creates many indirect jobs and is still, regardless of what Branson claims, the national flag carrier. For the sake of its many employees and for the UK in general, having the airline get back to where it was 20 years ago is heartening.

I wish you well even though you're competition!

Harry

[kirungi1]

I'm with you about WIKI and to a certain extent your rates for cabin crew. However, Cost of living in Dubai is terribly high!
Morale for flight deck crew at EK is perhaps at an all time low and look at turn over for cabin crew even with your claimed high pay and top-up incentives. Has this brought you satisfaction? then why is this anyway turnover?

I will reiterate the point made in that final episode of "A very British Airline" about the sense of belonging employees feel at BA. Leadership takes it's place at BA and I'm talking about good leadership. Employees will always look for something much less that take-home-pay or/and a combination of things for their satisfaction (loyalty). You will hardly find a thing such as locals pitching against expatriates at BA. It's not how much you give but how you give it and that's quality.

[harry the cod]

Morale at an all time low? Not by a long way. 5 years ago maybe, but apart from the usual suspects posting on the ME forum, the majority of pilots are content generally.

The cabin crew are somewhat different. The turnover is high for several reasons. Firstly, it's an expat job. Very few will join with a 15-20 year career in mind, unlike those at BA or anyone working in their home country. It will always be to many an opportunity to see the World for 3-6 years then return home and settle down. This is especially so for those from Western countries. Those from Asia/Africa tend to stay longer for the simple reason that their job is very well paid compared to what they could achieve at home and their salary often supports their immediate and sometimes extended family. Many are degree qualified and are doctors, lawyers but can still earn more here than their native country.

The second reason is their working conditions. There is no union here and never will be. Because of that, senior managers can and do treat crew with what I'd call less than basic respect at times. I've witnessed it myself directly, not always and not from all managers but some nonetheless. There is not always the support for crew either when it comes to passenger complaints. Unfortunately, a certain nationality who we carry a lot of know this and complain about the slightest thing. Please don't wobble your head as you agree! 120 hour months with 8-9 days off may not be uncommon at times with crew promotions after 6 month trials operating in a higher position without full pay.

So yes, these are the reasons why BA and other legacy carriers need to move away from costly contracts and change terms and conditions if they wish to survive.

Finally, as for Dubai being expensive, it's mainly housing that makes it so. Fuel is 1/5 the price of the UK, taxi's are cheap and lots of deals at hotels offering crew discounts. Female crew can quite easily go out throughout the week and not pay a dime with many hotel bars offering free drinks on certain nights.

There isn't the long term loyalty here that you may find in BA I agree, particularly amongst those with a shorter career viewpoint. However, this actually suits EK's image to recruit young, attractive and enthusiastic crew rather than having some grumpy and miserable 50-55 year old waddling up the narrow isles in her size 18 skirt!

Now that's quality!

Harry

[kirungi1]

However, this actually suits EK's image to recruit young, attractive and enthusiastic crew rather than having some grumpy and miserable 50-55 year old waddling up the narrow isles in her size 18 skirt!

Harry, we have consensus across the range in #152 except for that quote ^^

BA loves old age, in actual fact, call it "good age" for a number of reasons other than old being golden. Besides discrimination, why wouldn't I select a candidate for a role who has a beaming passion and desire to contribute to the success of the company just because they are of a certain age? Should I offer a contract to a model who is looking to buy time till that modelling contract arrives and they are off?
I think those "young, attractive and enthusiastic crew" bring form but not class but if you are looking for something that stands the test of time especially with modern age variables of competition then you don't have to build castles on the sand.
For generations that "grumpy and miserable 50-55 year old waddling up the narrow isles in her size 18 skirt!" crew has consistently met customer expectations especially on safety. Wouldn't that be quality? :D

[crewmeal]

Harry I finished with BA when I was 52, but I wasn't grumpy I didn't waddle or twerk as it's called now and I certainly didn't wear a size 18 skirt, but had a humble 34 waiste.

[harry the cod]

I don't condone the policy, just stating what the Company appears to desire. As I've mentioned already, the Company doesn't encourage long term loyalty amongst cabin crew.

As for safety, I'm pleased to say that neither airline, touch wood, have had to put that training to the ultimate test, apart from the good job the BA crew did on the B777 at LHR. But why assume that you can't be attractive and safe? Is safety the preserve of the old and ugly? ;)

Crewmeal

Good for you. My post is part in jest as I'm sure you're aware. I'm using the extremes that I've experienced. UK employment regulations would prevent an employer from giving warnings over weight issues. Here in the ME, if you're fat...you're fired! Well, eventually maybe! The US carriers are by far the worst. A size 18 might be considered anorexic.........

Harry

[kirungi1]

But why assume that you can't be attractive and safe? Is safety the preserve of the old and ugly?

Of course you can be attractive and safe. What I'm arguing is your bias that old has to be "ugly" and therefore discriminated. This has no place in modern civilisation. That's where we're all headed and if you're in an environment that encourages this, think and think again. There are alternatives if you want them.
I presume experience comes with age - Imagine how naive you were on the controls 15 or so years ago? It transfers to the back of the cabin as well. They become better with time. Cabin crew of good age eventually become intuitive, that principle of foresight (predicting) - because they've witnesses scenarios over and over again and it's this aspect that BA looks for in it's cabin crew besides others.
I'm sorry but I think we have to disagree on this! :ugh:

[harry the cod]

15 years ago.....niave? I certainly hope not, I was a few years into my command by then! That should give you some indication to my age too! If you look at my post, the wink usually indicates something in jest perhaps.....

I'm well aware that you can still be very attractive when you're older. I'm a prime example of that! ;)

Harry

[panda-k-bear]

re 'customer is king' - i witnessed a customer on the early LHR-MAN go apoplectic because he was not offered a full hot breakfast. Was he right? I have commuted weekly from Cornwall to LHR via National Express for many years. The journey take about seven hours during which i don't find it necessary to eat, drink or use the lavatory and guess what? Ive always arrived fit, healthy and in a good state of mind. Some pax can't seem to go from LHR to HAM with complaining about a lack of food or drink


May I offer a reply? As SLF, often travelling on business, I maybe able to give a little perspective - though going 'apoplectic' helps nobody. Very often I have to take a flight up first thing in a morning and fly back at night - so a day trip business meeting in another corner of Europe. Very often I won't have time for lunch, so I rely on BA to provide me with a decent breakfast to keep me going til I get back to the airport and have something in the lounge before my return. Some pax do rely on the breakfast to keep them going for the entire day. Just over a week ago I took a BA flight up to LHR from southern Europe - ironically for a meeting in Waterside - departing at silly-o'clock. For whatever reason, the catering had not been chilled and had spoiled - no food could be served. There was nothing. Not a thing. Not a biscuit or a bag of nuts. I had to keep going on a cup of tea and glass of water until about 5pm.

So there's the context of why some pax do get a bit upset at what you may see, on the surface, as somthing trivial.

[DIA74]

Remember, this was made for TV. Drama, bluff, tears, bullies, idiots, whatever. A TV show apparently needs these things to entertain its audience. If they do not get "entertainment", they will take things out of context or ask leading questions off screen so they can shoot the answer they want on screen. I have personal experience of how things can be made to look quite different in the finished show.

[TrakBall]

From someone that has been in the business let me reassure you…there is nothing more unreal than "Reality TV".

TB

[Mr Mac]

Harry The Cod / Kirungi 1
Had the pleasure of flying on EK couple of months ago with British CSD up from DXB to MAN who was ex BA and had been at EK for nearly 20 years and she was no youngster, but attractive and bright and ran a VERY good cabin. She said that she felt there was no pressure to leave EK at certain age, and was looking forward to continuing to live and work out of DXB. Harry may even know her !.


Regards
Mr Mac

[mixture]

For whatever reason, the catering had not been chilled and had spoiled - no food could be served. There was nothing. Not a thing. Not a biscuit or a bag of nuts. I had to keep going on a cup of tea and glass of water until about 5pm.


Let me get this straight.... you flew into LHR and you were unable to find anything to "keep you going" between the terminal gate and Cranebank.

Seriously ? Its not some remote airstrip out in the bush in a third world country for heavens sake ! :rolleyes:

Even more so given you're talking about BA here, so you likely arrived at T5 ... and we all know there's a Costa smack bang in front of your face when you enter the arrivals hall. From memory, I think there is also M&S by the cash machines. Hell you could even buy your "biscuit or a bag of nuts" from WHSmith !

Put away that violin, mop up those tears and pull your socks up man ! ;)

[Ancient Observer]

Yup. The Costa is a big one. Then, at the BA HQ there are enough snack sources to feed an army of pigs.............( )

[kirungi1]

Mixture and Ancient Observer,

Thank you for those objective comments. On a lighter note, Having met her primary objective of delivering Panda-k-bear to LHR on time, did BA not honour her secondary objective in this case?

[Mr Mac]

Ancient observer
Maybe that's the difference. When you go to Ryan Air HQ when you want a coffee, you join the staff at the coffee machine, and put your money in as do they.


Mixture / Ancient Observer
Maybe Panda- K-Bear had a late running flight and did not have time to call at M&S/Costa/ WH Smith etc, or maybe just likes to move quickly to their meeting rather than take further delay, possible driver waiting, I do not know ?. I do know that personally I have never as far as I can remember picked up food drink etc airside on arrival, be it on business or holiday, I just want to get out of the airport and on with my day.


Regards
Mr Mac

[kirungi1]

Absolutely Mr Mac!

Maybe this is the sort of customer who never carries spare money, cards etc and had all their hope in that secondary agreement with BA.
Yes, Panda-k-bear had made it to that meeting on schedule but the rest of their day doesn't run smoothly! Looks to me as a good meal without salt in it - amazing how far some little things can go. It's only my 2p :oh:

[G-F0RC3]

Maybe this is the sort of customer who never carries spare money, cards etc

I've never heard of anyone flying anywhere without carrying money or cards with them. :p

[Capetonian]

I've never heard of anyone flying anywhere without carrying money or cards with themI left my wallet at home and didn't realise until I was too far away to turn back without missing my flight. It was a pretty awkward experience but the kindest thing to come out of it was a FA on EZY giving me tea and a sandwich without payment and on trust, although I was able to ensure payment later.

[G-F0RC3]

I'll rephrase: I've never heard of anyone flying anywhere who deliberately chose to carry no money or cards with them. :p

Anyway, jolly good service that they gave you the benefit of the doubt. :D

[kirungi1]

I've never heard of anyone flying anywhere without carrying money or cards with them

Regulars on BA0902 LHR-FRA will bear me witness. Somethings, in the circumstances, take precedence. Capetonian, I've been there all day long!