Jetstar deferring 787 deliveries?

[wild goose]

This is still very much speculation, but is it possible the Jetstar 787 deliveries are being deferred?
The next aircraft due for delivery from Everett in Line Number 175, VH-VKF. It was rolled out of final assembly in late March and is yet to take its first flight, which usually happens about a month after rollout.
The one after that is LN 189 VH-VKG which was rolled out on May 1. Instead of being parked in the pre-flight stalls for all the necessary stages of preparation for flight testing, it has been parked at the tower apron, which is where 787's have been placed in the past for storage. The regular stages of preparation were not performed on this airframe.
This may be part of some effort to manipulate the financial performance of the company, avoiding the large capital expenditure, probably on the short term.
(Long term storage for 787's is also on the disused RWY 11-29).:hmm:

[V-Jet]

Operational spares? You can't have too many!

[PA 804]

Something weird happened with the paint job on VKF. It's been back in the Paint Hangar in May, but had to wait a while. There's this Matt Cawby photo from the end of April.
VH-VKF at Paine Field (http://paineairport.com/kpae10361.htm)

[V-Jet]

Very well picked up.... I n t e r e s t i n g.

Although, given the extraordinary 'leadership' we exist under, it could just as easily be yet another total cluster disaster...

[Australopithecus]

That photo clearly shows two different tones of silver on the fuselage. No wonder it went for a re-spray.

As far as our leadership's ability to create chaos where only order existed before...I expect that we haven't yet seen the full breathtaking scope of their ineptitude. We have thus far witnessed 5 1/2 years of palpably stupid strategy; now we shall witness the messy unravelling of it all.

I heard that they upgraded management's omni-directional blame pointer in order to finger all of the external factors preventing Joyce's grand vision being realised. All of which are unique to Qantas, of course.

[pull-up-terrain]

This is still very much speculation, but is it possible the Jetstar 787 deliveries are being deferred?

The thing is, the 787-8 can't operate on all the long routes the A330 operates because some genius ordered the 787-8 with the wrong engine pylons. Im not sure how many 787's Jetstar has currently, but just on the top of my head, the 787 wont be able to fly to Honolulu, or Melbourne to Narita, Melbourne to Singapore. So thats 4 less 787's jetstar needs.

[Capt Groper]

What differences do Engine Pylons have that effect ETOPS criteria?
Housing for STBY ELEC / RAM air turbine?

[ebt]

Uhh, I was under the impression that there is only one engine pylon for the 787, hence why the engines can be swapped between RR and GE without too much hassle.

[Capt Kremin]

Both are on the CASA register as of 16 May. Both owned by the mothership and leased to the parasite.

Where is all of QFs cash going again?

[C441]

Rumor has it that Qantas have engaged a Melbourne law firm to find a way to back out of a recent aircraft acquisition program.
B787 - unlikely, A380 - probably not, unless its the remaining 8 deferred aircraft, A320 - maybe. They could drop half of the order and still have too many.

[Australopithecus]

Ebt...we were all under the impression that there was a single pylon, but apparently there was some savings to opt for a lightweight pylon matched to the low thrust engine option.

As you know, engine thrust is changed by a setting, but pylon choices are forever. The story goes that the first eight 787s have the low thrust pylon and will forever be cripples. The specification was changed from the ninth aeroplane. In the meantime the low thrust option plus very high seat density means the aeroplane cannot fly the routes for which it was purchased.

Smartest guys in the room. Very small room though.

[Mstr Caution]

C441.

If true, the smartest of a bad bunch must have been Boston Bruce.

In my opinion he saw the writing on the wall and made a dash for the Emergency Exit.

[Ted Nugent]

The story goes that the first eight 787s have the low thrust pylon and will forever be cripples

All 787-8's have the same engine Pylon, all that is required is a relatively minor mod on the fuel control unit and some minor software upgrades but that will cost $$$$. Current mod status allows any current JQ 330 sector to be covered by the 787 but there will be payload restrictions on the longer sectors i.e. HNL.

[Madame Bandit]

Rumor has it that Qantas have engaged a Melbourne law firm to find a way to back out of a recent aircraft acquisition program.
STRONG rumor has it as the A380. A particular chair thrower from the past has been "contracted" to share the lawyers bed sheets until finalization.

[Tankengine]

What I have heard is that there is one pylon design NOW, but originally there was a lighter one offered. The only company to order it was (guess who!) even though Boeing advised against it. 3 or 4 aircraft have these pylons before Boeing stopped offering them. So later aircraft will have the capability for more thrust.:ugh:

[moa999]

Rumour sounds very dodgy in my view.

I suspect any aircraft purchase contract would be governed by US/ European law rather than Australian law, so a Melbourne law firm wouldn't help much.

As for the A320s - if there are too many for JQ, then I suspect we may see them with a red tail. The last big 737 replacement commencing 2001 with the planes taken from AA after Ansett fell over.

On 787-8s order was trimmed from 15 to 14 in Jan-13, then 3 deferred in Feb-14 (wasn't announced for how long). So JQ is only expecting 11.

The A380s wouldn't surprise me - although at some point QF does need to replace the continuing (and refurbed) 9 747s (inc 6 ERs) and then ultimately the A380s themselves.

[KrispyKreme]

Cancel that last few A380 orders and get the 777X for the 744ER replacements ...ha I had to mention the 777 but it's too old gen now

[dragon man]

I would go for it been the 380. Rumour has it that the deferment is $20 million per airframe per year. Don't shoot the messenger please it's only a rumour.

[VH-Cheer Up]

They are probably deferring to save on parking costs throughout SE Asia.

[Alloyboobtube]

Best way out of it is to go bankrupt !

[VH-Cheer Up]

Alloyboobtube
Best way out of it is to go bankrupt !
no it isn't. Once an administrator is called in it turns into a complete fustercluck. Then it would be all about them maximising their fees.... Anyway, who is likely to appoint? The banks don't seem to be concerned yet, and the board is hardly likely to wave the white flag just yet.

[Blueskymine]

Maybe that's the plan all along. Administration. The wolves made a fortune out of Ansett.

Imagine Qantas?

It's the only explanation for the incompetence.

[moutere101]

It is difficult to understand what the problem is. Based on a 335 passenger load ACAP OEW plus ~3t to bring the aircraft upto DOW the MTOW for HNL-SYD for a 10-hr sector is ~211t. The lowest thrust engine at 53K has no trouble getting this weight in the air on a field length of ~9000ft.

[flyingins]

There is no problem with the 788 in JQ service. It's just a great deal more enjoyable to watch the various and baseless heavy landing/ weak pylon/ passenger cap/ RTOW limited/ deferred delivery/thrust rating rumours take life on this forum as 'fact'.

Rubbish the lot of it, but long may it continue!

Allegedly.

[maggotdriver]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story! The Gold Coast is 2492m long. It CANNOT lift what they wanted out of there (with the first three I believe) because of rwy length and pylons. Told to me by someone who really does know. FACT!

[The Banjo]

Maggotdriver,

Sorry to disappoint your twisted agenda, but the B788 will be operating:

-Cairns to Tokyo and Osaka by September 14 and

-Gold Coast to Narita late July 2014.

Myth busted

[flyingins]

VKA, VKB and VKD all have the same pylons as VKE and every other 788 on the planet, maggot. It's a fallacy and your source clearly does not know.

As for the runway length, every RPT jet has limitations out of that airport under certain conditions. EVEN THE 737/A320!!!! Out of interest, the TODA at Gold Coast is 2402m (2552m on RW32), TORA is 2342m (2492m on RW32 from full length).

A good illustration of how 'FACT' can be distorted so very easily. Especially when it suits your agenda.

Keep 'em coming though. It's fun to watch the falsehood-frenzy!

Allegedly.

[maggotdriver]

Wow, thanks for explaining TODA, TORA etc., I don't know how I got my command without you! Didn't realise that aeroplanes have limitations out of some airports, once again thank-you. The person who told me was one of your pilots involved with the introduction - face to face. I asked why they don't chip the donks and he said they couldn't. Pylons according to him and I've never known him to be anything other than a straight shooter. Personally, I don't think it matters because from what I hear they're usually half empty!:eek:

[flyingins]

Hey Maggot,

OK then. Your mate is wrong about the chip as well as the pylon. Each engine could be chipped up to a higher rating but it's not necessary. The aircraft performs just fine.

Loads are good too. Often very few seats spare in fact.

But please, continue your aggressive ranting. I'm enjoying it. FACT!

:D

[Normasars]

Muck Fe.

What's that about brotherhood of pilots and all that.

With guys like you all in the "GROUP", who needs enemies or Management to help their agenda? You make their task so easy to achieve. Self destruction at work.

You guys are absolute twits.

[flyingins]

I agree entirely.

But he started it...... :}

[mymatesadutchman]

Everyone should focus their bad thoughts on the twits that made the decision to buy the frames in the first place.A330's arent any better current config.What model have the light weight floors and long range tanks

[wild goose]

Flyingins
Heres another fact:
VKF is now the oldest airframe in Everett (except for the "terrible teens" of course, and besides an Air Canada frame that was damaged by a forklift) that still hasn't flown. An inordinate amount of time has passed since its rollout without any good explanation for this highly unusual 9+ weeks just standing there like some piece of modern art.

[tdracer]

VKF is now the oldest airframe in Everett (except for the "terrible teens" of course, and besides an Air Canada frame that was damaged by a forklift) that still hasn't flown

That airplane is scheduled to B1 next week, and deliver June 30.

No explanation for the long delay after rollout, but the schedule does show "repaint".

It's not uncommon for new aircraft to be "build ahead" - operators often want to take delivery all at the same time (e.g. to handle the peak summer season) so new aircraft can 'stack up' a bit, then a bunch deliver in a short period. But I have no idea what the story is on this aircraft.

BTW, I asked some counterparts on the 787 program about the "lightweight" pylon. No one had heard of that, but came short of saying it didn't exist.:sad:

[wild goose]

Tdracer
Thanks for that, it just about wraps up this story.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Geez Maggotdriver, don't you know anything? I can't believe your a captain!

Every body knows its easy to operate out of the Gold Coast to anywhere when you are empty................. :E

I'm just surprised that they'll even be using two engines due to the piss poor loads. :hmm:

Maybe they could use a caravan.............. :ok:

[maggotdriver]

Normasars, take a bex and have a lie down. I'm well aware of our unity (or requirement thereof) within the GROUP.

Flyingins I assume you must be on it. Apparently, the person I referred to must have told me a porky? Just for my own edification (and their defense), is there, or has there been at any stage a change in thrust ratings for any of the J* 788s? And further, is there any difference between thrust ratings amongst J* 788s? And last but not least, on a normal summer's day can you lift out of the Goldie (on the lower engine speced if indeed you have them) what the 330 can to Narita and if not, is there a higher thrust rating engine spec for the J*788 that could?

moutere101 sorry for the other posts I was just trying to let you know that the runway they operate from wasn't quite 9000 feet more like 8500.

[Going Nowhere]

For those who are into this sort of stuff.

A table of all 787 production details, with times for each stage of pre/post production.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AtfsHdXQ5rl9dFp4b1hETmNQNzN0b2dSUlRNWEFOOVE&single=true&gid=2&output=html

[howyoulikethat]

definitely gonna need some more ergs out of the Goldy...but judging by announcement,the negotiations with GE have taken place.......

[moutere101]

with 53k engines and 8100ft at OOL and assuming a std day (15c) + 12c the MTOW is about 198t. I am assuming the OEW of JQ's frames to be very close to QR's ( similar internal config) at about 115.5t plus about 3t to bring it upto DOW. Piano-X tells me that at max passenger load this variant is good for about 8.5hrs/3950nm which is about OOL-NRT

[Troo believer]

All well and good but what about the engine out gradient and the obstacles? Currumbin Hill? Its got nothing to do with the distance to Narita but all to do with the grunt using a smallish runway with obstacle limitations. 1.2% nett gradient engine out second segment limit. Maggotdriver is correct, its limiting and thats why the first 4 787-8 are orphans. They were ordered by Dixon to be domestic 767 replacements in 2008. The rest is history. Good to see J* international looses money now that mummy doesn't pay the fuel bills. Thanks Nic for exposing this charade.

[FYSTI]

...and ISA+20, and occasionally +25.

[Mstr Caution]

Troo Believer.

All will be OK, as JQ are working on OOL schedules to depart on days where there are strong South Easterly Winds.

[toolish]

Or depart from the Brisbane

[Normasars]

Maggot,

I don't need to take a bex and lie down at all; quite the contrary!!

I saw the writing on the wall and exited stage left a few years ago now. I'm not the one self destructing.

You guys on the other hand .............

[flyingins]

Maggot et al,
I can't speak to anything other than common knowledge on the line, but all JQ 788s are 63.8k engines. Always have been. (as moutere101 says, the lowest thrust rating GE offers on this engine is in the low-to-mid 50s!)

I doubt your mate told you a porky, but really the rumours going around on this forum and down at the Coogee Bay Hotel have confused everyone.

Out of interest VKA was delivered with two different version GEnX engines and since that delivery the older one has been swapped out for the latest version. All others have the latest version on both sides. All are and always were 63.8k.

As for OOL on a summer's day, I understand that the answer is yes. I am sure that the A330 would have wider performance and environmental margins, to be fair, but presently JQ is running one of the highest ZFW, lowest thrust setting combination 788s in the world and it's still meeting/ beating performance forecasts. Boring for pilots, exciting for accountants.

WRT to climb gradients at OOL, I too had heard the issue was originally terrain off the end of 32 more than any other. Now that the type has settled further into service I've heard that the refined numbers have been run again and it fits. I have no idea about future changes to thrust settings. Above my pay-grade.

Allegedly.

[moutere101]

Troo Believer..

This is what Piano-X is saying..

TAKEOFF PERFORMANCE {198000.kg., altitude 0.feet, ISA+12.deg.C.}___________________
** WARNING: Takeoff flap was reduced to 14.1 degrees
in order to meet the minimum 2nd segment gradient
JAR25 Takeoff Field Length 8109. feet
115% Factored All-Eng.Dist. 7723. feet
Balanced Field Length 8109. feet
2nd Segment Climb Gradient 2.40 %
Takeoff CLmax 1.92 {wimpress ref.area}
Takeoff Vstall 131. keas
Takeoff Vmc 124. keas
Takeoff Vfail 147. keas
Takeoff V2 151. keas
L/D at 2nd segment 12.66 {incl.windmill & asymm.}
Takeoff Static Thrust 258442. newtons per engine
Takeoff Thrust/Weight 0.266 available static
Takeoff Wing Loading 5387. n/sq.m.{W/S wimpress}

[moutere101]

So if the engines are ~64K then the MTOW out of OOL is ~218t
and you get something like this.

AKEOFF PERFORMANCE {218000.kg., altitude 0.feet, ISA+12.deg.C.}
___________________

JAR25 Takeoff Field Length 8088. feet

115% Factored All-Eng.Dist. 7673. feet
Balanced Field Length 8088. feet

2nd Segment Climb Gradient 2.99 %

Takeoff CLmax 1.94 {wimpress ref.area}
Takeoff Vstall 137. keas
Takeoff Vmc 135. keas
Takeoff Vfail 152. keas
Takeoff V2 158. keas
L/D at 2nd segment 12.26 {incl.windmill & asymm.}

Takeoff Static Thrust 311376. newtons per engine
Takeoff Thrust/Weight 0.291 available static
Takeoff Wing Loading 5931. n/sq.m.{W/S wimpress}

[waren9]

what sort of range is that then? cheers

[moutere101]

Warren........

about 5600nm/ 11.5 hrs

[FYSTI]

moutere101, what MTOW / range do you get for:


ISA+15
ISA+20
ISA+25 (rare)

They are the realistic possible temps for six months of the year.

[moutere101]

FYSTI............

ISA +15 217t 8084ft 711min. 5583nm

ISA +20 211.75t 8095ft 658min 5157nm

ISA +25 205.5t 8103ft 605min 4721nm

The time is block time.

Is there anyone out there who is privy to the OEW's JQ's 788's , better still does anyone have a typical DOW or known by some as Runway OEW.

[Popgun]

Exact weight varies by airframe.

Basic Weight approx = 114.0

Operating Weight (incl crew 2/9) approx = 117.0

PG

[moutere101]

Thanks Popgun ,this OEW tracks real close to QR's.

re engines, the CASA register shows VKA and VKD with GENx-1B64's and B,E,F,G and H with -1B64/P2G01. GE quote both engines at 298Kn take off thrust. I make that to be around 67000 pounds so I don't see them as being short on power. Piano-X uses the EIS value which I believe was 64K pounds.

Based on Popguns values and the 67k thrust the OOL numbers look something like this.

ISA +15 220t 7991ft 6021nm 764min
ISA +20 215t 8024ft 5622nm 715min
ISA +20 210t 8059ft 5200nm 664min

As usual E & OE :)

[Beer Baron]

Piano-X isn't exactly official performance data. Anyone got the real figures from their operators performance manual/OPT?

[redkite1]

Jetstar deferring 787 deliveries? - Lets not get caught up in dazzling facts about aircraft performance and wing loadings - lets stick to gritty rumours here. I think the guts of the argument is not about the struts, it's about QANTAS is out of CASH!!! Get it, Jetstar is a shelf company and it's parent QANTAS pays the bills and is now broke!! If QANTAS had the money it would snap up the new airframes whatever strut/engine combo it has, gift them to Jetstar and find any number of routes to fly it on. The question is - how broke is the kangaroo??

OK, Jetstar isn't a shelf company.....

[griffin one]

who cares? QF is lost ,Jstar 787 will rule the world according to alain and the poor 744 pilots are believing in Marty Mc fly and his Delorean.

Wake up and smell the avgas.Jstar is growing,QF shrinking,and the LCC model will last about five years more,who invest $230 million an airframe to sell seats at $69.

better return with money in the bank

[redkite1]

Griffin One, Jetstar aint expanding anywhere if QANTAS is broke and the whole house of cards falls down... QANTAS group = Jetstar + mainline + the board + hundreds of other entities. Lots of tribal battles going on in there but your 744 and 787 crews are all part of the one group and are employed by one and the same board.

It is very easy to interchange the names QANTAS/QANTAS group/Jetstar and make it mean what you want it to mean, which is what Joyce and Dixon have done for years to camouflage their real agendas. So the question I am making is this: is it 'Jetstar' delaying deliveries for 'performance shortfalls' or is the Qantas group broke and can't afford them - I know which one I would lean towards right now.

[qfpaypacket]

Had dinner with a consultant who had been involved with Qantas restructure. He said that once the grand plan had been rolled out and the long haul award was extinguished, the plan was to magically come up with a plan to equip Jetstar with 25 B787 to fly in both silver and red tails.

This isn't about pilots, it's about awards. Including the l/H flight attendants and engineers. There is a reason J* is working so hard on introducing the new 787. Their pilot award is 25% more efficient. Their F/A award is 66% more efficient etc etc

This guy would know, they are the guys steering the industrial ship in the background. It's what they are paid a lot on money to do.

[Popgun]

3 airframes were delayed to July/August, apparently so that for accounting purposes the costs were pushed into the 2014/15 financial year.

Those airframes start arriving in a few weeks.

The additional pilots needed to fly them are currently completing their type ratings.

The only 'deferrals' are the already announced 3 airframes - so 11 total instead of 14. That is a 1 for 1 swap out with the A330s returning to QF.

Strong rumours fuelled by management comments are that those 3 airframes will be 'un-deferred' once it is politically expedient to do so.

PG

[Tuner 2]

LOL

Since when they ever worried about political expediency?

[waren9]

if the tax year had anything seriously to do with the delivery schedule it would have been accounted for from day 1.

deck rearranging chairs the

[Roller Merlin]

What qfpaypacket said