Gliding

[vjmehra]

This may sound a bit anti-social but....I quite like the idea of gliding (I've only tried it once, but it seemed like fun), however I'm not sure I really feel like getting heavily involved in a club, with all the associated 'tasks' etc. I just sort of want to pay, fly and go home as you would when flying GA.


Is there anywhere that operates like this (I couldn't find anywhere), or is the only way to get involved in gliding to be sociable and get involved in a club?


Close to south London would be ideal, but obviously that may not be realistic!


Also is there a gliding forum anyone could recommend, where I could ask newbie questions (sorry google has let me down today)?

[Pirke]

Buy a motorglider. You can launch, fly and glide without talking to anyone else (only ATC). A bit less optimal glide ratio, but with marginal thermals you can leave the engine on.

[RTN11]

Unfortunately to truely glide you need a team of people to help you do it. Clubs are generally not run for profit, so they rely on members helping out with the building maintenance, providing food etc, it's just the way the gliding community works.

I don't think you'll be able to find what you're looking for without annoying a lot of people, who unless you pay them a lot, will soon get annoyed and stop helping you to get airborne.

[vjmehra]

I'm not trying to upset anyone, if what I'm not looking for doesn't exist, so be it. I was merely trying to find out if there was anywhere that operated like this, if not then I'll have to find an alternative or get involved in a club.

[IFMU]

It exists here in the US.
Bryan

[Prop swinger]

Smaller clubs tend to rely solely on volunteer support, ie club members. Larger clubs will often have a core of paid staff & enough student pilots to run the launchpoint. The majority of qualified pilots at large clubs will turn up on a soaring day, put their glider in the launch queue, fly as much as they like & after landing, put their glider away & go home or sit around in the bar.

Of course, to get to the qualified pilot stage you may have to spend some time as part of the student pilot group helping at the launchpoint. Again, some of the larger clubs will do 1:1 instruction where you get your own instructor for a half or full day.

[vjmehra]

To be honest for learning I'd actually be pretty happy to join in with the whole club ethos, I get how that would be beneficial to both me and the club. I'm more thinking about a year or so in, when I just want to fly for a few hours then leave, I can imagine having to do various jobs around the club and spending all day there would end up putting me off sticking with it (not to say that would always be a bad thing, but I like the idea of being able to book a slot, turn up and go)!

[India Four Two]

It exists here in the US.

Also in NZ. I did a five-day Mountain Soaring Course in Omarama.

Attend the pilot's meeting, attend a course lecture, walk out to my glider, which was already on the line, fly for several hours, land, leave the glider with the crew and walk back for a beer.

I did 17 hours in five days with my "own" Duo Discus and instructor. Flew about 1500 km and learnt a lot. However, it's not cheap - about $200 per hour.

Most of my gliding though, has been in a club environment and I recommend that for long-term learning and just plain socializing.

vj,

You might consider going on an intensive course to get started, but ultimately, join a club near you that has the "right" atmosphere.

[vjmehra]

Yeah there are a few places near London that do intensive courses, so I am pretty tempted with that approach short term, I just don't want to start and get frustrated with spending too much time on club activities later down the line if that makes sense (I don't mean the socialising as such, more the work stuff)!!!

[A and C]

Great way of flying, steer clear of club politics and those who engage in them for pleasure.

[mary meagher]

vj, there are 3 large clubs near London that will provide courses which would suit your requirements. Lasham, Booker (at Wycombe Air Park) or the London Gliding Club at Dunstable.

Book on a course, and after that decide how involved you want to get. But if you can afford to live in London, you can afford to fly at these 3 big clubs, which have professional staff.

I started flying in 1983, at Booker. Went solo in 3 months, got Silver Certificate the following summer, and did the PPL at Wycombe Air Centre that winter, only needed 18 hours of power as the Silver C fills a lot of the requirements.

The British Gliding Association site is worth looking at. The Glider Pilot forum is not very helpful, not as user friendly as PPRuNe, so hard to follow, and a bit inbred. Ask your questions on this forum and we'll do our best to help.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

My brief spell in the world of gliding was coloured by being used as 'launch fodder' for the club pilots. I think it was three complete dawn to dusk 2-day weekends at the club before I even got airborne! After that, the ratio of retrieve / cable tractor driving / general dogsbody to flying training convinced me slavery had not been abolished.

Even if you got a high place on the 'flying draw' for studes at 7am (having left home at silly-o'clock or kipped in the bunkhouse overnight), if it turned out to be a good day the instructors went soaring!

I stuck it for a while in the hills, realised it was me being the fool here, then left and got a PPL in 6 months down on the plain at Barton.

Never looked back!

I'm told it's not like that now. But leopards, spots, etc.....:cool:

[Armchairflyer]

Then again you might meet a fellow PPLer on the apron who turns out to be a gliding instructor and invites you to a trial flight, which shortens the waiting time considerably :). And even though the ratio of groundwork & socializing/actual flying time compared to solo propelled flying is an important barrier from flying gliders for me, too, I readily admit that from a "pure flying feeling" standpoint, gliding is indeed a great way of being airborne.

[MartinCh]

IFMU, yes, but if there were no paid duties/roles even in non-profit clubs, in true American fashion, not much would get done/people airborne. Yes, there are few 'volunteer/unpaid instructors/tuggies/duty pilots associations' in US, but not the same.

I love power flying in the US and have done some gliding, but I like UK club scene more in comparison.
The amount of 'ground crewing' really depends on the amount of flights, whether training or check flights, solo pilots launching, aerotows vs winches, amount of trial lessons that morning/day.

The owner pilots assemble/preflight their glider themselves, can tow out the glider with car to launch point, need quick hook up and running wing and they're gone. So it's more ground chores for winch ops, cable break practice flights (landing ahead means buggy/car towing back), trial flights.

VJ, you basically aren't going to have issues getting solo, from your further posts. I don't think you can 'book good soaring conditions time slot' unless it's one of the mentioned clubs and it's summer season/good forecast.

If you're cash rich time poor, generally don't bother with pure gliding in small/smaller 'volunteer' club. There's a lot of delays and setbacks/disappointments and high attrition rate of trainees/early solo pilots as it is. Gliding's great, by all means, just not for everyone or nor for too long. The least stressful kind of flying besides other pure soaring.

[IFMU]

MartinCh,
I prefer clubs to commercial operations. The two clubs I have been a part of, Nutmeg Soaring and Harris Hill Soaring Corporation operated primarily on unpaid labor, with the exception of Harris Hill on the weekdays in summer. Things got done! But we do have purely commercial operations here and that does work better for some.
Bryan
Nutmeg Soaring (http://nutmegsoaring.org/app/index/list/?org=nutmegsoaring.org)
Harris Hill (http://www.harrishillsoaring.org/HHSC/Home.html)

[snapper1]

SSD,
'Kipping in the bunkhouse,' 'Down on the plain at Barton'! Sounds like your story involves my gliding club. If it is, yes, things have changed - a lot. Although we still do quite a bit of running around for others, but then they run around for me as well. As someone has said, if you are time-poor but cash-rich, gliding probably isn't for you. But if the ratios are reversed it may well be. I found that once I'd got to know people I actually enjoyed being on the field, chatting to mates and helping pilots get airborne. The other day I flew for two and a half hours and it cost me £7.50 - OK, plus overheads, but its a great way to aviate.

[astir 8]

I've just passed 1000 hours gliding - OK not much for you sky gods, but it's been 27 years of fun.

2450 winch launches, 320 aerotows, 2 bungee launches, 3 auto tows.

About 30 field landings

50 different glider types, a lot of them vintage, some very strange. 30 of the types were single seaters with accompanying "DIY" type conversions going up the wire.

Flown in 6 different countries

Best height gain 21 000 feet, best cross country 320 km, both in vintage wooden gliders.

Haven't bent one yet (touch wood) although a pupil tried to fly me through a fence last weekend

Lots time spent maintaining gliders with good mates, lots of time spent getting other people into the air (instructing, winch driving, retrieve driving, wing tip holding.

Lots of beer drunk.

Minimum paperwork until EASA struck

Deeply frustrating at times, but overall gliding ain't so bad!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Snapper - Derby & Lancs. I certainly wasn't cash-rich/time poor back then. But the glacial rate of flying training progress actually made the cash outlay in travel. meals, and bar bills at least as expensive as lessons in the C150 at Barton - and in training for the PPL I got to see the wife occasionally as well, and to mow the lawn, and all that other 'normal life' stuff.

I did notice a lot of 'club politics' at the gliding club (which I kept out of), cleekeyness (SP?), and that many of the regulars were divorced. Most of those that were married had divorced wife one and married wife two, who was met through the club!

There were also quite a few instructors whose ego far exceeded their teaching ability. Shouting at studes was not uncommon, and knowing what I know now my introduction to stalling (in a Motor Falk over Grindleford station which I remember looking down on through the windscreen in our vertical stall recovery) was dangerous and totally unrealistic from a training viewpoint. He was just showboating, with no notion of teaching how to fly an aeroplane.

[cumulusrider]

Since there seams to be a bit of gliding club bashing going on may i redress the balance a bit. I started gliding in 1978 at a very small club (40 something members) and yes there was a core of people in charge. However everybody chipped in helped get the gliders launched, ran the bar and flew as much as finances would allow. After a couple of years i decided to take my PPL. What a difference. Turned up, briefed, flew, debriefed, went home. I dont think I spoke to anyone apart from the instructor for nearly a year. No camaradery. No social aspects at all.
After I had my ppl I kept flying until It was a chore to fly for the £100 cuppa just to keep current. Gave up flying in disgust. ( I was now broke having spent all my savings on the PPL)

Fast forward to 1996 when due to redundancy I found both the time and the money to go flying again. I joined lasham Gliding Society (a very large club with 600+ flying members) Yes there was politics but with that many members you could avoid the cliques. Lots of cheap flying and availability of gliders (20+), good social atmosphere, expeditions, advanced training (aerobatics, competitions) and I was made welcome. Yes whilst under training you are expected to help launch others, but once qualified it is optional. They have a booking system so if you are flying club single seaters you can turn up, get the glider out of the hanger , fly and put it away again just like a power club, but it is frowned upon.
The flying is varied. In the right weather you can fly for 10 yrs visiting most of england.
For finacial reasons I have had to give up flying again but I am still a social member of the club

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I should add that I know many flying schools are functional 'learn to fly then go home' places, especially these days where many flying schools seem to be an extension of the commercial flying world.

Lancashire Aero Club at Barton in the 70s, 80s, and into the 90s was a thriving hub of grass roots aviation. Not only basic flying training, but many home builders, PFA types, aircraft fettling going on, always someone to chat too, to fly with, and an excellent club house. We didn't realise how lucky we were to have all that, together with enthusiastic and highly experienced and capable instructors for tailwheel, aeros etc.

One could, and often did especially if the wx was unsuitable, spend a most enjoyable few hours there without even flying. To have a lovely Chipmunk in the hangar one could wheel out and take flying was a bonus!

A sociable atmosphere can and does (or at least did) exist in power flying as well.

Yes, there were politics and a few pushy unpleasant folk (don't all clubs have them to some extent?) but one could ignore that, as most of us did. It was our playground - aviator's heaven. I loved it. Very sad it ain't like that now.

[snapper1]

SSD, got it in one!

When I first joined in 2002 I heard stories about the old-fashioned b*llockings at full volume. It had almost been consigned to history but one individual occasionally regressed. He was unfortunate enough to try it on with a mate of mine in front of a number of members. Said mate waited until he got the bloke on his own and told him forcibly that if he EVER did that again he would be made to feel so small he'd wish he hadn't opened his mouth. He never did it again.

These days we all treat each other with respect. It doesn't matter whether you are a bus driver, a high court judge, builder, pathologist or policeman - we are all equal. Nor does it matter whether you are a novice or a sky god.

Nobody forces themselves on to the committee just to gain power anymore - we select the most able and then we have to drag them on.

Many things have changed for the better, but being a member's club does mean that you do have to put yourself out to help others and yes, sometimes the days are long and quite arduous. But the rewards are immense - and I don't mean just the flying.

[OwnNav]

Sounds so familiar, Doncaster Gliding Club, late seventies, me very shy approached someone asking how do I get to fly, within half an hour was up in the Falke, grinning for three days..... CBSITCB

[RatherBeFlying]

Here in Canada the intro flights are overpriced, but the Five Flight Packages are generally more reasonable.

If you have a number of clubs in the area, go visit them, talk to the students and find out how many flights they get in a day and any recently licensed pilots to see how much commitment is required and how long it takes to get licensed.

There is a lot of work in running the daily operation, looking after the equipment and the grounds.

There can be petty dictators; more often a small clique that calls the shots. What I find is that if you pitch in, you get listened to. Getting things changed requires talking to lots of people and building consensus.

The non cross country days I usually show up anyway and help out. That pays forward for the days I just jump in my glider and disappear for some hours.

My last club had five modern single seaters and a summer towpilot for weekdays. That provided considerable opportunity for new ppls to get cross country experience. That ratio is 24 members per single seater.

My new club has two single seaters, one modern and one older glass ship, for 70 members, but the only people I've seen taking them XC are instructors.

If I was joining a club as a student, I'd want to know there's a formal program to move licensed pilots to XC.

[ChrisJ800]

If you have only 1 flight, think about a holiday gliding course of 3 to 6 days or so. Near S London would be Kent GC at Challock (I started there), Lasham or Booker. But as it would be a holiday and staying at the club pretty much any club in UK that offers holiday courses would be great. You build up a lot of flying and have fun the same time. Accomodation can be a bit spartan, but you are there to fly and have a beer or three. Ive done mini courses at Challock, Dunstable, Lasham and Deeside. Had a great time at all. If you choose somewhere with winch or autotow you get lots of take offs/landings which is what you need to practice.

[Piltdown Man]

I just sort of want to pay, fly and go home as you would when flying GA.

You can do that but you will never progress beyond bumbling idiot, if you even get that far. You also need other people to help you fly - and you repay them by going home after your turn? That's not on.

The attraction of gliding is that you will never, ever be as good at it as you want to be. To improve, you have to learn from others. And the "others" will be keen to teach you and help you learn, if you contribute. And let's remember, you will have to go cross country and who will pick you up? I well remember a few "anti-social" types staying in fields for hours waiting to be retrieved. And nobody cared...

Even flying clubs required some effort and social interaction. Furthermore, they can be great places to spend some time. Therefore, if you don't want to contribute and hang around after "your" turn, may I suggest you take up jigsaw building or navel gazing, certainly not a past-time that involves social interaction.

PM

[Heston]

There are some pretty good gliding flight sims. Just saying...

[vjmehra]

Indeed, I have been told!!!

[thing]

Also it's not an 'either or' situation. I've just rejoined my old GC, the last time I flew a glider was three years ago. I'll probably do it for a year, thoroughly enjoy it and pack it up again for another few years. I'll still fly powered of course but I think I can just about squeeze a Wednesday maybe three times month at the GC. I just fancy poling a glider around again, when I get fed up I'll pack it in again.

It does eat into your time, you may as well write off the whole day when you go gliding, and I mean at this time of year putting the gliders away at 2200 after arriving at 0700. Sometimes you may get a couple of hours soaring in, sometimes you may get a couple of five minute circuits in but that's the deal with gliding, either accept it or don't do it. It is however far more sociable than power flying, although having said that I like being on the winch, take your flask and some butties and chill out between launches....as long as I'm not on for hours at a time.

[CaptainChairborne]

I love flying. My social life is elsewhere. When I go flying it is to be in the air, not to be chatting and socialising. If I wanted that I would have taken up golf or something. My ideal day is to turn up, fly, go home

[thing]

Fair comment Captain, we all do it for different reasons and long may it continue.

[India Four Two]

thing,

You could spend all day in the air, like a friend of mine in my old gliding club, who on a recent flight, logged 6.43 hours and 448 km!

Of course he's rather keen :ok:

I was updating my log book last night and realized that as of my long flight on 12 May, my total X-C distance crossed the 100,000 km mark!

[thing]

Just had a look in the logbook and my longest flight was 5:40. I remember the only reason I came down was that my bladder control was on emergency max...never liked using peebottles/bags. Tried one once and got most of the contents over my jeans and was a bit pongy when I came back. Probably too much detail there.

[mary meagher]

Not at all. The time to deal with bladder problems on a long flight is before you take off! Well equipped with containers (plastic bags) that won't leak.
And you lads are well equipped in other ways as well....as the little girl said to the little boy, that's a handy thing to have on a picnic!

There are Eastern European gliders that have plumbing arrangements for passing fluids directly overboard.

And some entrepeneurs promise that female contraptions are available to meet the needs of the lady pilots. Some girls wear Depends, which is what the astronauts now do while waiting on the launchpad....but I used to sit on a couple of bath towels, worked for me.

My longest flight was 8 hours and 53 minutes, covering a task of 511 k.

One does not want to be distracted by mundane physical problems. Also I am informed that if you are going to crash, it is dangerous to crash with a full bladder!

[ChrisJ800]

I had to pee into a winter glove once as nothing else was available. Chucked it out the dv panel! My pre flight checks thereon after were PCBSIFTCB to bring the pee bottle!

[Armchairflyer]

Also I am informed that if you are going to crash, it is dangerous to crash with a full bladder!Indeed, good point, receiving a severe blow in the region with a full bladder can cause it to rupture, and that can turn an already non-nice crash (or barroom brawl) into something quite less nice even. One more reason for taking a leak before any flight (main reason for me is that I would just hate spoiling the fun of being airborne by dreaming of a toilet :\).

[RatherBeFlying]

A search on GPR will produce all sorts of information:eek:

The ladies are well advised to have some padding under whatever device they are using.

Right now I'm partial to freezer bags which are long and narrow.

[India Four Two]

Careful chaps and chapesses!

This might become the first Private Flying thread that is moved to Jetblast. ;)