Would you fail these blokes who landed in the manner as shown in this video

[Chuck Canuck]

Watch these landings at BHX :

I?ve Never Seen Anything Like This.. Scary Take Off And Landings, WOW. | PetFlow Blog - The most interesting news for pet parents around the world. (http://blog.petflow.com/ive-never-seen-anything-like-this-scary-take-off-and-landings-wow/#D1jllA0XkTbmUS7j.01)

Years ago a good friend was failed in a sim crosswind landing check because the checker claimed that he did not fully decrab, leaving some residual drift thus giving rise to a rough landing. The sim then was an old sim, a first generation B777 sim which did not record all drift parameters except that if the drift was beyond tolerance, it would register the excursion as a crash.

In this friend's case, the sim did not register any crash. It would also register an over g hard landing as a crash. There was no record or indication of a crash. When challenged to show any print out that it registered any crash, the checker couldn't produce any. It was the checker's anal and adamant assertion that it was his call that it was a fail due to his perception of a hard landing because of residual drift and crab angle!

Now to add insult to injury, that particular airline's training division is now recommending that crab should not be totally removed! It now tells pilots to keep at least 5-8 degrees of crab!!! What utter CRAP! I have retired and am no longer current with Boeing FCTM, but I think this pose some very interesting arguments wrt crosswind landings.

[nick14]

Landing in the crab is a recommended technique for a wet/contaminated runway.

If you are downwind of the centreline then leaving a little crab on is no bad thing. It makes the landing a little more noticeable however I would always refer back to the basic reason for checks, are you safe to operate the aircraft? Was the aircraft operated within its limitations? Simulators are notorious for poor representation of handling characteristics at landing, stall, outside the envelope etc. new technology is coming although it's not cheap.

Failing someone for a rough landing sounds like rubbish to me, a bit like guys teaching to power out of stalls.....

[Harry O]

Impressive flying :ok:

[ortotrotel]

Yes, I would fail them. And command that they be sent back to basic flying school. The video is available on youtube under other titles. The level of skill demonstrated by many of those scenes as ****n tragic.

It's a sad statement on the skill of pilots flying large jets that they can't handle crosswinds that are within the limits of the plane.

[Geragau]

See this jumbo crunch!

747 crosswind landing in Hong Kong. [VIDEO] (http://m.wimp.com/crosswindlanding/)

[Cows getting bigger]

I must check my GoodYear share prices. :)

[markkal]

It's not the pilot's fault. Its the system brought about by " The magenta Line " culture which is responsible.
Many Pilots lack basic fling skills, Instructors themselves very often don't have these skills to begin with having been trained in schools focussing on instruments and procedures.

To be able to land with a crosswind requires the ability to not only decrab, but to be able to cross the controls in a coordinated slip wing down with opposite rudder to counter drift and keep runway centerline. Youtube is loaded with videos with hard skewed landings due to lack of reaction other than flaring from crews.

The old school is gone, and the industry is not interested in fostering stick and rudder , fortunately there are still some "Aviator" pilots when not involved in their system management activities who carry on with their passion flying small aircraft..

[nick14]

I'm sorry but anyone flying jets will know wing down is not sensible and gives less crosswind capability than crab methods. It Is highly likely to cause a pod strike.

Also landing with some crab is not by any means dangerous or damaging. Like I said above it is a recommended procedure for wet/contaminated runways.

[Herod]

The failure isn't the landing; it's the being there in the first place. I don't know what the wind was, but the gust factor looks horrendous. If it's that bad, go somewhere else. "A superior pilot is one who....etc.

[nick14]

Easy to say on the ground with allthe time in the world. I have been there with crap weather at your destination and alternates, everyone is diverting, fuel is reducing every minute. Add to that a missed approach/windshear escape and a runway that is in limits becomes very inviting.

[Tarq57]

Very OT, but anyone else notice the Captain on the landing aircraft (at 4.05) seems to have put his hands over his eyes?

[dubbleyew eight]

like harry O I think the video shows some impressive flying in atrocious conditions.

nobody scraped a pod, nobody broke anything.

it does show why aircraft operators can never relax on the maintenance though.
I wouldn't fail any of them.

...thank heavens I wasn't there on the day.

[scotbill]

I'm sorry but anyone flying jets will know wing down is not sensible and gives less crosswind capability than crab methods. It Is highly likely to cause a pod strike.Don't know what your jet experience is - but that is not a professional approach to landing in strong Xwinds. The cross-controls method mentioned above permits a normal flare and permits fine adjustments for fluctuating wind conditions. It also ensures into wind aileron on the runway which is particularly important on swept wing aircraft. Residual bank is typically less than 2 degrees and there is no danger of touching a pod if the aircraft is flared as normal.

The Boeing 757/767 autopilot gives a very polished demonstration of the technique. It is worth striving to imitate it.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yes, but the actual crosswind limit is higher without decrabbing.

There's nothing unprofessional about it.

[Rick777]

For the 777 Boeing says wing low or decrabbing in the flare or on a wet runway with less than 30 it's crosswind landing in a crab are all ok.

[totempole]

On the T-7 for over 10 years. Did a line check on a bloke some years ago who landed in a 25-30kts crosswind without removing the crab...it felt like a massive cruncher. He was ashen faced and thought that was the end of the world. I cooly told him nothing to it but he was still mighty worried.

To ease his mind told him to write it up in the maintenance log and get the techies to check. True enough the techies came back with a report of 1.47vertical G and a sideload of 0.66... no drama.

The T-7 has a long wheel base with 3 pairs of wheels on the MLG...the geometry of a crosswind landing without decrab on touchdown gives rise to moments/torques that make the landing seem very bad than it actually is. Guys who have not physically flown a T-7 will go all pale as ghosts when that happens, especially those simmers who only qualify as experts in the box.:=

[nick14]

737-800

Wing down in the FCTM is limited to 17kts.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I remember a first officer cadet failing her line training because she couldn't get the landing right.

The airline persevered but to no avail - lack of basic flying technique.

[scotbill]

On the T-7 for over 10 years. Did a line check on a bloke some years ago who landed in a 25-30kts crosswind without removing the crab...it felt like a massive cruncher. He was ashen faced and thought that was the end of the world. I cooly told him nothing to it but he was still mighty worried.

But what did the passenges think of the 1.47g vertical cruncher? The whole point of the controlled sideslip technique is that it permits a normal flare. It is surely the hallmark of a professional pilot that he/she makes the difficult look easy. Are we seriously saying that landing with crab on is better than teaching pilots how to cope with Xwinds?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

No, just that it's a valid technique and not "unprofessional".

[scotbill]

It is only a valid technique for those capable of carrying it out smoothly and with a considerable amount of last-moment expert timing - usually acquired after many heart-stopping moments along the way.
The RAF has to carry a lot of the blame for its widespread use - but finesse is not a priority for fast jets and passengers rarely have a choice of carrier.

The use of the words like "Kick off drift" should have no place in the lexicon of a professional pilot. (Try sitting in row 40+ when someone applies an agricultural amount of boot).
The single most serious disadvantage of the last-moment-decrab is that, if misjudged, it can leave the aircraft drifting downwind. Any subsequent panic push can cause a nose-wheel-first touchdown which is likely to cause serious damage.

[Artie Fufkin]

Seen a lot of crosswind landings on YouTube. Virtually everyone "kicks the drift off" after MLG touchdown, prior to nose wheel touchdown.

It was nice to see the RYR boys in the linked video get it right; go around after a gust, nice decrab to land on second approach.:D

[glendalegoon]

nick14

if you strike the pod on a DC9/MD80, you have more problems than you can think of.


now, nick. anyone who flys jets knows enough not to make a hard and fast rule like you tried to foist on us.

good luck nick

kicking off drift? RAF?

scotbil, you can call it what you like. the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the proof of the landing is being able to re use the plane right away!

[dash6]

Given the conditions,they all did well. The really wild approaches were thrown away.No aircraft were broken.Nobody ways injured.What's not to like? The camera wildly distorted the deviations from the centreline making for a great entertainment.Loved it!

[Kentot Besar]

I am sure you have all seen the B777 test flight landing in crosswinds...I bet you it was more than the 1.47G /0.66 sideG cruncher mentioned by totempole. Did the aircraft go to the scrapheap after that ?

Passenger comfort problem with a 1.47G thump? Do you want to spoil passengers all the time with greasers after greasers even if it may mean hydroplaning or running out of runway at least SOME of the times?

[Babablackship]

ortotrotel...not wanting to be presumptive, but not making to the big league is no reason to hold resentment against guys are now pedalling big shiny jets! I have trained some guys who hold exactly the same views as you have when they were on the commuters, but when they came onto training on the biggies their performance in crosswind landings were just as " dismal " at best. Been there, done that and a bruised ego to boot!:=:ok::ok:

[scotbill]

Passenger comfort problem with a 1.47G thump? Do you want to spoil passengers all the time with greasers after greasers even if it may mean hydroplaning or running out of runway at least SOME of the times?

Whether it is fair or not, most passengers base their opinion of the pilot on the quality of the landing. Factor in the fact that over 20% suffer from anxiety while flying to some degree. Your continued employment may depend on passengers trusting your airline not to frighten them.

The professional pilot should be able to carry out a controlled touchdown in the maximum permitted Xwind with due regard to runway conditions without frightening the passengers.

The unfortunate pilot on the 1.47G thump was right to be ashen-faced. But you can only criticise an experienced pilot if you can tell him why it went wrong and, more importantly, what he can do to make it better.

Artie Fufkin - did it occur to you that the reason so many landings end up on social media is that the technique used was the last-moment de-crab!

[aguadalte]

For the Bus, the recommend technic is to crab. At least that's what the FCTM NO-170 P 4/18 FCTM
LATERAL AND DIRECTIONAL CONTROL FINAL APPROACH In crosswind conditions, a crabbed-approach wings-level should be flown with the aircraft (cockpit) positioned on the extended runway centerline until the flare. FLARE The objectives of the lateral and directional control of the aircraft during the flare are: • To land on the centerline, and • to minimize the lateral loads on the main landing gear. The recommended de-crab technique is to use all of the following: • The rudder to align the aircraft with the runway heading during the flare. • The roll control, if needed, to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. Any tendency to drift downwind should be counteracted by an appropriate lateral (roll) input on the sidestick. In the case of strong crosswind, in the de-crab phase, the PF should be prepared to add small bank angle into the wind in order to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. The aircraft may be landed with a partial de-crab (residual crab angle up to about 5 °) to prevent excessive bank. This technique prevents wingtip (or engine nacelle) strike caused by an excessive bank.

By the way, those guys on the video have done a hell of a job. I would have passed them all :)

[captainsmiffy]

Just for the record, look at (a) the obviously extremely bad conditions prevailing on the day and, (b) the wicked distortion from the camera that is in play. BHxs runway isnt really like the north sea in a storm force 9 (yet it appears so) and aeroplanes dont really 'hover' as the camera would have you believe. There is some terrific foreshortening effect distorting how things appear here and is making things look a lot different from how they probably were. A wicked day with some valiant attempts, a few good go around decisions and undoubtedley a white knuckle or two.......speaking as somebody who has been there many times in those conditions. Any landing in those gusty conditions is going to be, at best, agricultural.

[pitotheat]

A lot of tosh here written by Flight Simulator "Captains" or fair weather GA pilots at best. Last 2 posts are spot on. These landings would almost certainly be Captains only do you think they got into that seat without a thorough understanding of correct technique and being able to display it in various training scenarios in the sim and on the line?

[DevX]

Forgive me as I'm not a qualified pilot (just nebbing in here), but as a routine passenger from BHX I'm mightily impressed with the skill shown by all of the pilots in the video. I'd happily fly with any of 'em! :ok:

[Lightning Mate]

This underwhelms me.


Look to the future with the "magenta line children".

[Molokai]

Did a line check on a kick ass high and mighty bellicose ex-check airman from NRT-KIX-NRT. As we were sitting at the holding point RW 16L, there was a fairly strong X-W of 20-35 kts, and a few aircrafts landed awkwardly. This chap on the LHS was smirking and making disparanging remarks about those landings to his copilot and yours truly. I kept my peace and watched his not too tidy lift-off later.

A fairly routine turn round back at KIX back to NRT. First officer's leg back to NRT...unfortunately the winds remaiined across both strips at NRT at 30-40kts; he opted to take over from the no.1 Lined up for the long 16R, the gusts did give him some nice PIOs. As he decrabbed near flare, a gust took him awkwardly and we ended up with a cruncher slamming down on the downwind gear first. It was a such quick drop like a rock that my suggestion that he go around was not even completed that we had already crunched onto the tarmac and he had the reversers out ...now we were committed to a full stop landing. It was the most silent taxi trip to the ramp, you could hear every hiss and wisp of the airflow through the cockpit air louvres! Just after shutdown I suggested a PA to the pax....well he did mumbled something about the winds, the winds, the gusty winds!!!

You should have seen that skygod turned into a clay foot dodo, the embarrassed yet intransigent attempts to explain away that " disaster ". Well I have seen many disasters like that on line operations as well as the sim. I guess I had a couple of such disasters myself. Well, a short debrief with a poor pass grade for the skipper, and an unfortunate incomplete check for the F/O. Nothing much to say...they all knew what the **** it was. My gripe was he did not go around, but the maintenance came back that the touchdown was within limits according to the QAR. Fail him? Nah, it was a lousy landing but not unsafe nor dangerous. Potentially risky? Possibily but all things have their risk potentials.

I went to the hotel and SLEPT WELL. But I doubt that skygod did!:)