Am I legal?

[memories of px]

just paid £65 to get my licence converted to easa, the section in the scheme of charges says -Unlimited validity National UK Private Pilot’s Licence (LAPL(A) and (H)) £65. So does it include LAPL privileges?, can i fly a C172 using the second year of my class 2 medical? i did ring the CAA and email them, guess what... yep ..... silence.

[VH-UFO]

Saw the title and thought it had domething to do with Quagmire.

[Level Attitude]

Unlimited validity National UK Private Pilot’s Licence (LAPL(A) and (H))Unsure from this what Licence you are actually asking about.

1) A UK NPPL is valid for NPPL Privileges in a C172 until April 2015

2) A UK PPL is valid for LAPL Privileges in a C-172 until April 2015

3) An EASA LAPL(A) is valid (for LAPL Privileges) indefinitely in a C-172

Assuming all Ratings are current/Experience Requirements are met then
a valid LAPL Medical will allow you to fly (GP Med Dec also acceptable for Option 1) above)

Your Class 2 Medical will have Expiry Dates on it; which will be different for
Class 2 and LAPL. If the LAPL part is still in date then you are legal to fly.

[memories of px]

Many thanks for that, coming from flying a b777 with an ATPL, these EASA changes seem a nightmare compared to how i remember private flying, i was thinking of renewing my instructor/ examiner ratings, now i'm not so sure!

[Whopity]

So if you have just paid £65 you have an EASA LAPL. Why not a PPL with your previous experience and a Class II medical? The medical certificate states the expiry for various licence types and for a LAPL it will be 2 years for someone who has probably retired. Bear in mind with a LAPL you must have 12 hours experience in the 12 months immediately preceeding the day you fly!
I was thinking of renewing my instructor/ examiner ratings, now i'm not so sure! Then a LAPL is not much good to you, you will need at least a PPL £73!

[Level Attitude]

with a LAPL you must have 12 hours experience in the 12 months immediately preceeding the day you flyWas this a test Whopity?
I'll let you correct.

[Whopity]

Too many numbers whirring around and changing continually
FCL.140.A LAPL(A) — Recency requirements
(a) Holders of an LAPL(A) shall only exercise the privileges of their licence when they have completed, in the last 24 months, as pilots of aeroplanes or TMG:
(1) at least 12 hours of flight time as PIC, including 12 take-offs and landings; and
(2) refresher training of at least 1 hour of total flight time with an instructor.

(b) Holders of an LAPL(A) who do not comply with the requirements in (a) shall:
(1) undertake a proficiency check with an examiner before they resume the exercise of the privileges of their licence; or
(2) perform the additional flight time or take-offs and landings, flying dual or solo under the supervision of an instructor, in order to fulfil the requirements in (a). And in case (b), even having a test, does not solve the requirements of (a)

[memories of px]

well the caa have issued me with a little blue book, the licence says united kingdom private pilots licence, they charged me £65
i did a class 2 medical in 19th may 2013, so hoping to use the second year as for LAPL purposes, but the licence doesnt mention LAPL on it.
As i understand it, a class 2 is needed for instructing, and a class 1 if you want to get paid, over 60 itll only be valid for 6 months, so i wont renew a class 1 til i need to!

[Midlifec]

CAA website under staying legal, you cannot use a LAPL medical to validate an EASA PPL A, your licence is only valid with a valid class 1 or class2 medical cert.. No exemptions as far as they are concerned.

[memories of px]

Conversion to an EASA Pilot Licence:
Limited validity National UK licence:
Professional Pilot’s Licence £139
Private Pilot’s Licence (excluding LAPL(A) and (H)) £73
Unlimited validity National UK Private Pilot’s Licence (LAPL(A) and (H)) £65
Limited or unlimited National UK Licence to LAPL(A) or LAPL(H) £41


b) Conversion of a National Private Pilot’s Licence (NPPL) to an EASA
Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (LAPL) £41

they charged me £65, so according to the scheme of charges it looks like LAPL privileges are included, whereas for £73 it is not.

[Whopity]

Did you ask for a LAPL? The type of licence is in Section II. It should say LAPL (A) or PPL(A). Section XII should be blank. If it's a PPL(A) then it does not give LAPL privileges. Oddly a CPL does!
FCL.305 CPL — Privileges and conditions
(a) Privileges. The privileges of the holder of a CPL are, within the appropriate aircraft category, to:
(1) exercise all the privileges of the holder of an LAPL and a PPL;

over 60 itll only be valid for 6 months, No, You can instruct on a PPL with Class 2 over 60 and its valid for 12 months.

[Level Attitude]

just paid £65 to get my licence converted to easathe licence says united kingdom private pilots licenceThen you were not issued with an EASA Licence as these all say 'European Union Flight Crew Licence'

It sounds like you have been issued with a UK PPL - What did you apply for?

Although Whopity is correct that an EASA PPL does not contain LAPL Privileges; a UK PPL is valid for LAPL Privileges in EASA Aircraft (eg C-172) until April 2015.

So you have a year in which to apply for an EASA Licence, either PPL or LAPL, on the strength of your UK PPL in order to continue flying EASA SEP Aircraft.

NB:
Unlimited validity National UK Private Pilot’s Licence (LAPL(A) and (H)) £65You have correctly quoted this from the CAA Scheme of Charges but I have no idea what it means - The 'LAPL' in parentheses makes no sense !

[memories of px]

on the form i did tick ppl and lapl, looking at what i have received,there are two pieces of paper, one says european union flight crew licence, the other says united kingdom private pilot's licence, they both say PPL (A), they both have entries in section X11, night,sep,instructor,examiner.
So the easa ppl doesnt include lapl privileges, but the uk ppl does. i'm legal according to level attitudes response.
ps i didnt put LAPL in brackets , thats as its written by the caa, i dont understand its meaning either.
As a holder of an ATPL i would have thought i qualify for every licence below this level, obviously not!

[Level Attitude]

looking at what i have received,there are two pieces of paper, one says european union flight crew licence...It would have been useful if you had provided this information to start with.
on the form i did tick ppl and laplYou were asking the CAA to do something they are not allowed to do. A person can only hold one EASA Licence (per aircraft category). CAA therefore had to chose for you as to whether to issue you with a PPL or an LAPL and, it seems, you were issued an EASA PPL at an incorrect low price. Presumably they opted for PPL as you also wanted Instructor and Examiner Ratings, and these cannot be added to an LAPL. Additionally they have issued you with a UK PPL free of charge (usual cost £35).
You are 'Quids In'

As a holder of an ATPL i would have thought i qualify for every licence below this levelIf you hold an EASA ATPL, which you don't, then that is also valid as a CPL, PPL or LAPL.
If you held a non-EASA ATPL then, with certain caveats, you could apply for an EASA ATPL, CPL, PPL or LAPL - you 'chose' PPL.

So the easa ppl doesnt include lapl privileges, but the uk ppl doesPedantic Hat On: No, a UK PPL does not contain LAPL Privileges - How could it, LAPL is an EASA construct with no UK equivalent. However, during the transition to EASA, a UK PPL may be used as if it were an LAPL in EASA aircraft until April 2015.

To prevent problems for yourself in the future I strongly suggest you go to a friendly flying school and spend 15 minutes with an Instructor: Show them your Licences, tell them what you want to be able to do, confirm how to gain or maintain the Privileges you want to use and be shown the regulations on which that advice is based.

[kevkdg]

Post April 2015 - What can a UK PPL be used for... Annex II aircraft only? If so with the same privileges as that afforded to the NPPL?

[Level Attitude]

Post April 2015 - What can a UK PPL be used for... Annex II aircraft only?Yes
If so with the same privileges as that afforded to the NPPL?If a valid Class 1 or Class 2 Medical is held then all the privileges of a PPL can be exercised.
If only an LAPL Medical or a GP Med Dec is held then a PPL can be used to NPPL privileges until the expiry date of the contained SEP Rating.

The underlined section above is a bit difficult to police as a valid medical is not actually required to revalidate or renew a Rating by an Examiner 'In the Field'. However if you did so and continued flying before regaining at least a Class 2 Medical (or converting to an actual NPPL with SSEA Rating) you would be illegal.

[kevkdg]

Cheers.


So, you can use Annex II aircraft hours to revalidate by exp. an EASA PPL or LAPL.


BUT can you use EASA aircraft hours to revalidate by exp. a UK PPL or NPPL post April 2015 given they are only valid for Annex II aircraft. Obviously you'd have to hold an EASA licence as well in order to fly EASA aircraft.

[Whopity]

Yes you can. Your UK PPL stil remains an ICAO licence accepted by all ICAO States outside the EU.

[A and C]

Umpteen posts here and we have people of above average intelligence not sure despite holding a License fly a small single engined aircraft if they are allowed to do so.

If the pilot licensing system were a DVD player or a Fridge the small claims court would have now ruled it was of unmerchantable quality and we would get our money back.

The people who put in place this over complicated and strange system should ask themselves how we reached this level of complication and if they think that they have put in place something that is fit for the task intended.

[memories of px]

Well I'm off to get a class 2 medical, it seems the safest option
CAA still haven't replied to my email, couldn't answer my query
over the phone, local examiner was equally unsure, so still don't know
how to get a LAPL , never mind it's only money.

[Level Attitude]

so still don't know how to get a LAPLSame as for any Licence or Rating that you do not hold - You apply to the CAA for issue.
(Though don't rely on the 'Scheme of Charges' to tell you how to apply.)

However be warned, due to:
FCL.015 Application and issue of licences, ratings and certificates
(c) A person shall not hold at any time more than one licence per category of aircraft issued in accordance with this Part.If you do apply for an LAPL your current EASA PPL becomes a worthless piece of paper (which in some EASA countries would be required to be surrendered) so, in theory, even if a Class 2 Medical was regained in the future you would have to apply again to the CAA for the issue of a PPL.
(I don't think EASA has actually been in force long enough for anyone to have yet gone through this process; so exactly how the CAA would work this in practice remains an open question)

Well I'm off to get a class 2 medical, it seems the safest optionAnd may possibly give you the flexibility you want in the future as it is hoped that the rules will be changed such that LAPL privileges are included in an EASA PPL.

[Level Attitude]

The people who put in place this over complicated and strange system should ask themselves how we reached this level of complicationPart-FCL is badly written but a lot of the current rule complications are due to the transitional arrangements (which will run out next April) and the maintaining of various concessions, requested by GA organisations, including adding concessions built on other concessions:

EG
Many years (~10?) ago the LAA successfully argued that someone who was safe to fly, but couldn't quite reach Class 2 standards, should be allowed to do so - And the NPPL was born requiring a Medical Declaration signed by a GP to be used. Sensibly, if someone held a Class 2 (or Class 1), they didn't also have to get a Med. Dec.

Later the LAA argued that if an existing PPL holder's fitness fell temporarily below Class 2 standards but they could get a Med. Dec. then they should be able to use their PPL as if it was an NPPL without the time and hassle of applying for an actual NPPL The CAA agreed, but emphasised this was a temporary measure and that this concession, therefore, only applied until the expiry date of the existing SEP Rating.

EASA comes in to force in April 2012
Initially CAA applies for two year transition (UK PPLs can be used in EASA aircraft for two years). Later they apply for maximum transitional arrangements (UK PPLs can be used to LAPL privileges from April 2014 to April 2015).

LAA argue that LAPL Medical is equivalent (or even more stringent) than GP Med Dec so should be allowed to be used with NPPLs. CAA agrees.

LAA then argue that LAPL Medical should, therefore, also allow NPPL privileges to be exercised on a UK PPL. CAA agrees.

LAA then argue that if a UK PPL is only valid for EASA aircraft to LAPL privileges then only an LAPL needs to be held. CAA agrees.

A UK NPPL is also valid in EASA aircraft until April 2015 and can be used with either a GP Med Dec or an LAPL Medical. BUT because it is not a PPL it cannot be used to LAPL privileges, only NPPL privileges.

Not sure exactly of the history above - but you can see how complications creep in with every concession.

[glide1]

So what privileges do you get with A LAPL that you do not get with an EASA PPL?

[BEagle]

Not sure exactly of the history above - but you can see how complications creep in with every concession.

Mostly inaccurate.......:rolleyes:

glide1 wrote:
So what privileges do you get with A LAPL that you do not get with an EASA PPL?

None. No IFR privileges may be added to a LAPL, neither may an instructor certificate, nor SEP privileges on aircraft of over 2000 kg and/or with more than 4 PoB. The LAPL medical is simpler and cheaper and (at the moment) the LAPL validity criteria are on a continuously rolling basis.

[glide1]

Thanks Beagle that is exactly how I understand it. The original poster memories of px seems a bit confused as to what licence he applied for and has received.
He is then not helped very much due to (well intentioned) but very misleading replies.

[A and C]

One of the things that I most dislike about aviation is the people who love complicated and intricate rules and restrictions that they turn into some form of black art.

It is from committees of these people that we get the situation outlined above and the EU & EASA thrives.

While I have some sympathy for the transitional problem argument this situation has got out of hand and is a prime example of the regulators driving people away from aviation as a result of the rules, after all if you were thinking of taking up recreational flying this thread is enought to put you off.

Those of you instructors above who have an intimate knowlage of the complicated licensing rules should be asking yourselves if this is a good use of your time and effort or would your students be better served by a simple PPL licensing system that they can understand and yourselfs spending your time and effort teaching them to fly the aircraft.

Just as in engineering were EASA over regulation has taken the Chief Engineers of small maintenance companies off the hangar floor and into the office to sort out the paperwork burden this sort of over regulation is doing the same thing with CFI,s as they get further from the briefing room.

The conclusion that I have to draw is that over regulation is the enemy of flight safety and the main culprit of this erosion of safety standards is an organization that calls its self the European Aviation SAFETY authority !

This morning we have awoken to the news that voters across Europe have rejected the people who bring us this over regulation nonsense to all walks of life, perhaps now there is both a political and practical message that unless the EU and EASA change their ways and put in place appropriate, practical and understandable rule making within ten years they will swept aside.

[Level Attitude]

The original poster memories of px seems a bit confused as to what licence he applied for and has receivedTrue, but initially no one was aware of this (nor assumed it). The nub of the original question was "Can I fly a C-172 on an LAPL Medical". A question that cannot be precisely answered without knowing the licence held; and it took several Posts to tease this information out - the impression I had was that they hadn't even bothered to look at the 'two pieces of paper' in the 'little blue book' until prompted to by the replies on this Thread.

He is then not helped very much due to (well intentioned) but very misleading repliesI disagree. This has been one of the more helpful PPRuNe threads. The answers may not initially have provided the information 'memories of px' was seeking but that was due to additional information needing to be drawn out.

None of the replies, that I can see, on this thread are misleading at all - which ones are you referring to?

To me the most worrying statement in this thread is:local examiner was equally unsure

[glide1]

Level Attitude

Firstly I agree with your comment about local examiner not knowing.
Here is one example of misleading info.

"And may possibly give you the flexibility you want in the future as it is hoped that the rules will be changed such that LAPL privileges are included in an EASA PPL."

An EASA PPL already gives you LAPL privileges. I think what you are meaning is at the moment it does not allow you to fly with LAPL privileges if your medical is downgraded to LAPL status, This is what might change in the future.
At the moment you would have to apply for a LAPL(A) (and give up your EASA PPL in the process).

[Whopity]

An EASA PPL already gives you LAPL privileges.Common senses says it does, but the third rate legislation does not!FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations. No mention of LAPL wheras if you compare with the CPLFCL.305 CPL — Privileges and conditions
(a) Privileges. The privileges of the holder of a CPL are, within the appropriate aircraft category, to:
(1) exercise all the privileges of the holder of an LAPL and a PPL;

To me the most worrying statement in this thread is:
Quote:
local examiner was equally unsure
It is hardly surprising as examiners have not been told anything by the CAA in recent years. Standards Documents are inconsistent and do not comply with Part FCL. The Regulation itself is incoherent in many places, and I note in a recent AAIB report they have not even managed to keep up with the changes either. The CAA itself does not understand much of the regulation, or their own documents, judging by the number of incorrect answers they dish out.

A and C is correct: The conclusion that I have to draw is that over regulation is the enemy of flight safety and the main culprit of this erosion of safety standards is an organization that calls its self the European Aviation SAFETY authority !
Despite the fanfare of trumpets heralding in the new GA Dept, nothing has actually improved, or rather stopped getting worse. CAA Staff are generally disolusioned and they continue to resign.

[Level Attitude]

An EASA PPL already gives you LAPL privileges. I think what you are meaning is at the moment it does not allow you to fly with LAPL privileges if your medical is downgraded to LAPL statusNO. I mean an EASA PPL does not give you LAPL privileges.

It is true that both a valid PPL+SEP holder and a valid LAPL(aeroplane) holder can do pretty much the same things but that is not the same as saying a PPL contains/or gives someone LAPL privileges.

Unlike an LAPL holder a PPL holder is governed by the requirement to have a valid Rating.FCL.700 Circumstances in which class or type ratings are required
(a) Except in the case of the LAPL, SPL and BPL, holders of a pilot licence shall not act in any capacity as pilots of an aircraft unless they have a valid and appropriate class or type rating, except when undergoing skill tests, or proficiency checks for renewal of class or type ratings, or receiving flight instructioIt does not matter if a PPL holder has 1,000+ hours experience, including, 100+ hours as PUT, in the previous year - the day after their SEP Rating expires they can no longer legally fly as PIC - whereas, if their PPL did contain LAPL privileges, they could.

[glide1]

Level Attitude

What you are saying is correct for recency requirements and rating validity.
That is not what is deemed as privileges which is why they are not contained within the privileges box on the relevant pages in CAP 804.
CAP 804 requires careful reading which takes time as A & C eluded to in an earlier post.

[Whopity]

Why mess about with CAP 804, which is riddled with errors, when you can go directly to the source regulation where the privileges are quite clearly laid out?

[memories of px]

I am now legal again after passing a class 2 medical & ECG, i finally got a reply from the CAA, i reproduce my query and their reply below.
Dear sirs,
after phoning your staff yesterday to confirm that a ppl would cover lapl benefits, i came along this morning to have the licence issued.
However , reading through the licence i cannot see any reference to lapl.
All i want to do is make use of the second year of my class 2 medical which is good for lapl use.
i only intend to fly a C172, 4 seater, under 2 tonnes, am i covered?
or if not what do i need to do please.
Yours sincerely, pf.
The Reply:-
When you came to our counter you annotated that you would like ATPL, PPL and LAPL you can only have one of these and you confirmed that you would like PPL, the types you mentioned below are covered within your PPL and you are fully entitled to a PPL and this is a higher class then the LAPL, as you hold a CLASS 2 medical this also granted you the PPL.

Kind Regards
FCL

Although not fully answering my question, with the help of people on pprune ,
i have come to the following conclusions:-
you cannot use the second year of a class 2 medical unless you actually have a LAPL, this is not embedded in your PPL , you have to be issued with one and hand back your PPL.
at my age , 60, you need a class 2 medical annually with ECG every two years for a PPL, it cost £100 including ECG,( i was quoted £180 from another medical centre) for peace of mind and possibly early detection, i think it makes sense to have an annual medical rather than save a few quid with a LAPL medical and LAPL licence.

[Whopity]

A fairly typical answer however; you annotated that you would like ATPL, PPL and LAPL you can only have one of these But, if you had obtained the ATPL, it would have included all the others as mine does!

[memories of px]

I didn't realise that they wouldn't issue
an atpl without a class one medical, as I'm winding down I didn't see the need
for all that expense, I just want to fly the c172 as cheaply as possible!

[Whopity]

You are correct, you need a Class one to get the licence, but then it is valid for life and the privileges are simply dependent on the medical you hold. They have not written LAPL in the licence, but as its clearly written in the regulation they don't need to.

[memories of px]

so, the thing to do would be, next medical renewal, get a class one, get the uk atpl converted to easa, then after that go back to a class 2. It seems worth it to have the atpl current and the associated benefits, thanks Whopity.

[Whopity]

One further tip, do it before you are 65 or you will need a stress ECG, another £200 or more.

[BillieBob]

You also need a valid MPA type rating to have an EASA ATPL issued.

[mad_jock]

there is some rule now that you can only use a class 1 with a CPL or ATPL.

So you have to keep the medical up now to class 1 standards even if you only using PPL privileges of your ATPL.

[TheOddOne]

One further tip, do it before you are 65 or you will need a stress ECG, another £200 or more.

Hi Whopity,

My AME assures me that I won't (I'm 65 next week).

We'll see. Hope he's right!

Cheers,
TOO

[Whopity]

The Class 1 is issued remotely from Gatwick, once you reach 65 they block you if you have not had a Treadmill however; if they have not sent you a notification letter, you might get one issued on the proviso you have a treadmill within 6 months. By then, you will have the licence and the medical will be a Class II.