300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???

[moa999]

Cesspool,

Re salaries - to the vast majority of joe public on an avg wage of $55k or something, those wages are over the top.

Looking solely at the Captains wages - there are not many companies in Australia that would have that many people earning $250k +

Now I appreciate that flying is totally different to most normal professions.
But 'most' employees do 48wks Mon-Fri of 9-5, 0.5hr lunch - which is 1800hrs /yr. Many high paid employees do substantially more in unpaid overtime.
Pilots capped at 900hrs (appreciate there is more prep time etc which should be counted) but there is definitely a difference.

[Trent 972]

To the vast majority of GA pilots on an award salary of around 33k - 40k annually, those vast majority of Joe Publics on 55k salary look to be over the top.
Where does it all end moa? The politics of envy.

ps if I do 15 x 10 day London trips a year, that is at least 3,100 hours a year away at work before Sims and other training days, but keep telling me I only work 900 hours a year maximum.

[V-Jet]

Licence on the line (and therefore your job) every 3 months likewise strict medicals every 12 months.

An extremely through knowledge of Australian and International Transport Law (every country you fly to or over) is more than mandatory.

No such thing as public holidays, public holiday penalty rates etc. 17 hour work days are the norm and its rare to work all day. Extreme tiredness is the result. Personally I found International flying on the 76 the worst, occasionally bad enough to throw up on the side of the road driving home. 'Stop Revive Survive' signs always humoured me!

You do not get home from work each day, generally 'going to work' means 7-10 days and nights away. Days away 'at work' are NOT considered hours at work.

13 years it took me before I had Christmas and New Year off in the same year....

You cannot compare it to 9-5 M-F.

[Australopithecus]

And, according to today's paper, the average wage is now $73,000 and the average tax burden net $3,500.

...and by the way, last year I made 11 hours of overtime, and spent approximately 6% of my hours in crew rest. All in the long haul fleet, and I would be pretty average on my aeroplane.

[2Plus]

Looking solely at the Captains wages - there are not many companies in Australia that would have that many people earning $250k +

Actually, I think you'd be surprised.

Re salaries - to the vast majority of joe public on an avg wage of $55k or something, those wages are over the top.

I would ask Joe to compare apples with apples.

I have often compared the airline pilot profession to that of anaesthetists. A family friend of mine is one. We have spoken of the remarkably similar physical and psychological skills required. There are quite a few similarities between his and my attitudes towards pre-op (flight planning), sedation (preflight), main event (cruise)((magazines/operational material perusal)) and the all important post op, bringing the patient to (approach and landing), often the most challenging time. There are the common dynamics of having to work with various personalities during vastly different procedures. Much like we are required to work with different crew almost every time we go to work, to destinations with varied procedures and degrees of difficulty, often at short notice. Obviously my friend has spent a hell of a lot more time training and of course there are other differences. Our aircraft generally perform pretty consistently, patients less so. He often has to prep and step up at shorter notice than I, with little patient details. However, I still think the jobs are quite similar. At the end of the day cool heads and wealth of experience (actually being able to call on that experience, not just paying lip service to a buzzword) will contribute to the best possible result.

So, what's he on? After around 20 years experience, well over $200,000, certainly less than $300,000. Pretty comparable i'd say.

[Flying Tiger]

V-Jet:

"An extremely through knowledge of Australian and International Transport Law (every country you fly to or over) is more than mandatory."

Really? LMFAO!

[Flyboat North]

Comparing yourself to Medical Specialists - you guys are truly delusional.

The anesthetist did a six year medical degree , and four or five years specialist training with extremely tough exam to both get even selected ,then pass.

The second officer did a 14 month course, at a vocational level , ie: TAFE level. The academic rigour of Aussie flight crew exams is low, all multi guess, and all exams from PPL thru ATPL could be easily completed in five months, - year 10 grads manage to get through

Then SO does a three month course to upgrade to FO , 3 to 6 month course (airline dependent) to upgrade to Capt.

If you think comparing yourselves to medical specialist is a valid comparison - God help you

[ruprecht]

Anaesthetists bury their mistakes.

Pilots make the front page...:E

[JamieMaree]

The Job Security clause was never about a guaranteed job for life.

As far I was aware, in very basic terms it referred to a mindset that if an aeroplane had a Qantas tail on it, then it was to be crewed by a Qantas crew.

32R,
It just goes to show how much you were ill-informed or perhaps misled.
The AIPA defined job security claim included : a new payscale based on aircraft max weight, new redundancy provisions, a restoration of relative staff travel categories for pilots, increased loss of licence amounts, a requirement that all Qantas associated and entity pilots have pay and conditions no less than the Longhaul EBA provisions, access to all facilities that a First class passenger has when deadheading.
Note there was no claim anyway related to "a mindset that if an aeroplane had a Qantas tail on it, then it was to be crewed by a Qantas crew."
I am reliably informed that Qantas was told at every opportunity there would be no settlement unless and until all items were satisfied.

[rockarpee]

8 years bush bashing in PNG, 6 months training Qantas, 5 years SO, 4 months training Qantas, 7 years FO, NOT a lifestyle choice, 4 months training Qantas then command.........do the math:ugh::=you are right no uni at all.

[Australopithecus]

I knew I should have gone to cooking school. Neil Parry on $1.3 million.

The entire discussion about comparative pay will throw up odd fur balls of injustice, either way. I am quite happy with my pay, but not too happy with other pilots who insist that I am overpaid. Maybe I am, maybe not. Either way, its not their place to complain about it, the same as it is none of my business if they are willing to work for less. Fill your boots.

[h.o.t.a.s.]

The Anaesthetist I know makes double that.

In fact most medical specialists I'm aware of seem to.

Comparing Pilots to Doctors is absurd. Look at the RFDS, arguably the most challenging flying job out there and the Pilots barely make more than nurses.

Its as absurd as the other end of the argument saying QF is failing merely because S/O's get paid 150K plus…
It is unfortunate that QF rates of pay have now seemed to become unreasonable and publicly unpalatable, and good on those who are getting it, but a bit of introspection by some is probably required. Either change is made or will be forced upon us. As workers who are "softcocks" at a Union level (and we are), there is not much choice.

So what exactly do you think is a “good deal”? Salary and benefits benchmarked against regional competitors? Lets hear it!

My personal opinion, as to what if a fair and reasonable benchmark to QF competitors in the region?

Take the Short Haul rates and + 5/10% on a fleet pay rate for wide body. S/O's to get 60% odd of the F/O rate.

Leave those who are currently on the 'A Scale', and all new joiners or voluntary upgrades are placed on the B scale.
Compares to and in most cases is much more efficient than: Cathay, Virgin, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Singapore and Air New Zealand. All of Qantas' main regional competitors.

This is just my opinion, you can jump up and down about it if you like and it doesn't really matter, because in 5-10 years neither this, nor the current pay rates will be on offer…

With the unfortunate white anting, tall poppy, green eyed monster, step over your own grandmothers rotting corpse for a shiny jet job attitude in this cancerous, depressing industry (evidence provided in these and many other discussions on this site), I feel it will be much, much worse...:sad:

[V-Jet]

You are 100% correct with the anomalies and fur balls.

The point is really this. That's what Airline Pilots DO get paid with swings and roundabouts. Its skewed about 25-30% in AJ's favour (for his 'we are paid too much' argument) due the $AUD strength for example, but against Qf crew because of no school fee payments/rental assistance/power bills/confirms 1st Class travel etc - even a mate of mine in the sandpit a 'gardening allowance'.

Couple of points. Everyone is forgetting the sticker price for entry $100k now?? for the requisite licences, just to get to the Casino doorman to ask to be let in. And that money is UP FRONT boys and girls, NOT HECS..

and

"An extremely through knowledge of Australian and International Transport Law (every country you fly to or over) is more than mandatory."

Really? LMFAO!

Yes - really.

Swings and roundabouts and AGAIN - NOTHING to do with why this airline has fallen off a cliff in the last 5 years.

[theheadmaster]

I know an ENT that is on about 15 times more than what was quoted for that anaesthetist. I agree though that piloting is more a technical vocation and comparing to doctors is not appropriate.

[Dark Knight]

Pilots are their own worst enemies which has been proven many, many times previously; a fact airline operators, management are fully aware of using this knowledge to divide and exploit pilot labor to their own greedy ends. At the same time they capriciously and unscrupulously ensure their own rewards continue to increase far and above their true value.

Before this silly, unrewarding, self deprecating discussion proceeds further read & digest the following. I know it is long but an educated discussion may achieve more than taking cheap, uneducated shots at each other.
***********************************************************

The Demise of the Airline Pilot
by Capt. Douglas Corrigan
________________________________________

On January 15, 2009 we received a reprieve from Obamamania and our focus on what was forming into one of the most inept presidential administrations when Captain Chesley Sullenberger ditched US Airways flight 1549 in the Hudson River in the media capital of the world. It was said that it came during a time when we needed our faith in the competence of our fellow man restored and it was a surprise turn for a pilot who was probably trying to end his career without bending any aluminium and hoping that his chief pilot would say: “Who was that guy?” when he saw his name on the retirement list.

Nevertheless, he was forced into fame.

Driving home from the airport that evening, I was listening to the neo-con Michael Savage praise this man on the radio; touting his awesome skill and how when the host boards an airliner (when he’s not flying private jets) he wants to be able to turn left and see someone with grey hair, blue eyes and military experience sitting up front. Did he not know that the application military technique to an Airbus 300 led the first officer of American 587 to overcontrol that plane with aggressive rudder inputs which sheared the vertical fin from the fuselage and sent the plane plummeting into a Queens neighbourhood? We were led to believe that his experience flying the antiquated F-4 Phantom thirty years ago (which incidentally has an ejection seat for such events) was more important than his years of flying the line and training on high tech airliners or even the fact that he is a glider instructor.

Later, Clay Lacy joined the show ostensibly to corroborate Savage’s babbling take on the event but he did little but use the opportunity to say that the corporate jets in his fleet might fair better. He admitted having military experience himself, but this was deceptive because he was not an Academy graduate like Sullenberger nor had he flown much in the service. With 50,000 hours of flying he is ranked second to Evelyn Johnson in terms of time spent in the air. His brief guard stint began after he started his 40 year career with United Airlines and was done to avoid the infantry. Despite being a scab, his career as an airline pilot was lucrative enough to earn him the seed money for his own charter and aerial cinematography company. While he’s done a good job of ensuring that his own employees never experience the kind of career he did, if you’ve seen a Hollywood movie made within the last four decades with aerial footage, the chances are great that Clay Lacy Aviation had a hand in it. Check the credits.

The coverage of Sullenberger’s water landing was non stop. Like the “bubbleheaded bleach-blonde,” Don Henley describes in his song “Dirty Laundry,” who “comes on at 5:00” and “can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye,” Fox News’ boisterous attorney-turned-anchor Megyn Kelly read the cockpit transcript and did her best captain’s impersonation with the words “I have control” amidst giggles she could barely contain. It was enough to send any transport pilot on a search for the nearest airsickness bag.

It has been called: The Miracle on the Hudson, but how does this miracle, where no one even got wet, rank?

On July 19, 1989, United flight 232 suffered an un-contained failure in the center engine which severed all the hydraulic lines with hurling shrapnel. It should have been over for everyone aboard at 37,000 feet when this happened because the crew lost all power to the flight controls. A priest could have given conditional absolution to all if one had been on board, yet the crew, led by Capt. Al Haynes, was too busy to be scared.While they were unable to roll, yaw or pitch the aircraft, they made judicious use of the two remaining engines to steer the plane with differential power. They used every asset available to them including the help of a jumpseating off duty pilot (Jumpseating is a professional privilege whereby pilots can fly free on carriers for personal reasons) who helped manipulate the throttles and lower the landing gear for the over-tasked crew. In spite of this, Haynes kept his composure and his sense of humor.

Jumpseater: I'll tell you what, we'll have a beer when this is all done.
Haynes: Well I don't drink, but I'll sure as hell have one.
Sioux City Approach: United Two Thirty-Two Heavy, the wind's currently three six zero at one one; (360 degrees/11kts). You're cleared to land on any runway.
Haynes: [laughter] Roger. [laughter] You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh? (Haynes was alluding to the extreme difficulty in controlling the aircraft and their slim chances of making it to the airport at all).
While the landing had to be termed a crash, nearly two-thirds of the occupants survived the fireball. The NTSB concluded after studying the event, that training for such a scenario would involve too many factors to be practical and was unable to reproduce such an outcome in simulators.

In August of 2006, a Hawker business jet collided with a glider at 16,000 feet. It takes a long time searching the internet to get the facts of this story but reports say that the Japanese glider pilot turned off his altitude encoding transponder (to save the battery) thereby making it invisible to the jet’s Traffic Collision Avoidance System. The glider pilot bailed out prior to impact and the jet suffered damage to the wings and tail with a concomitant loss of directional control as air rushed into the front of the plane with tremendous velocity and noise. One engine was gone and the plane was forced to make a wheels up landing at an abandoned airfield. Nevertheless, the passengers claimed it wasn’t particularly rough.

The sailplane’s carbon fibre spar cut through the nose of the jet and entered the cockpit pinning the controls in the captain’s lap. Any further and she would have been bisected at the abdomen. The sheriff reported that the cockpit looked like a hand grenade went off inside. All survived. It was truly a miracle.

Where was the adulation for this skilled aviatrix and her first officer? From Amelia Earhart to Kara Hultgreen, political pressure has pushed female pilots beyond where their abilities would warrant while the Patty Wagstaffs and Hanna Reitsches are only known to aviation buffs. In the case of Reitsch, the fact that she was a devoted Nazi assures forever that she will never be recognized as one of history’s best pilots.

Applause for landings is appreciated in this beleaguered profession but it sometimes underscores the frustrating fact that few appreciate all that goes into making the rest of one’s flight so forgettable.

Indubitably, all pilots perform more difficult feats than what amounted to a VMC ditching without the swells of the open sea and with all the visual cues of a large runway complete with crash & fire rescue. Phil Comstock and his Wilson Group have been surveying unionized pilots for decades and he often has to remind them how special they are as a labor group. By way of comparison, consider a surgeon about to perform a very serious operation. Does he have a federal license? Must he go for a medical exam himself every six months? Is he drug tested and how much of his background is a matter of public record? Does the retention of his right to practice medicine depend upon him going into the operating room and performing “simulated surgery” during which an explosion occurs, the patient wakes up from anesthesia and the room goes dark with a generator failure. All the while he is told he must perform as though everything is normal.

Pilots are submitted to this type of scrutiny twice a year; it’s just called training and checking. For many it brings on more anxiety than most emergencies they’ll every experience. So much so that regional pilots, who often lack union protection to guard against the capriciousness of some examiners, wryly refer to it as “career day.” And nearly all of these simulated emergencies are conducted under Instrument Meteorological Conditions as opposed to Visual Meteorological Conditions. The distinction is lost on most non aviators who can only correlate flying to driving a car in a two dimensional environment. Without instrument training and proficiency the absolute best pilot is helplessly in a vertigo situation seconds after losing sight of the horizon. The inner ear balance mechanism will not prevent a death spiral from ensuing. As a private pilot, William F. Buckley Jr. inadvertently found himself in an overcast layer and said many times: “I have never experienced such a thing, and the sensation was terrifying, robbing you, in an instant, of all of the normal coordinates of normal life, including any sense of what is up and what is down.” If he hadn’t had a seasoned pilot with him, the conservative movement may have been stillborn. The instrument rated John F. Kennedy, Jr was not so fortunate as he followed the pattern of many doctors and lawyers affluent enough to become pilots and own planes but with little time to practice and remain proficient. With his wife and sister-in-law on board, he pressed on to Hyannis as the horizon disappeared into the haze and darkness over Long Island Sound.

Perhaps what frightened Sullenberger the most was the notion that the decisions he would make in seconds would be analyzed for months. The findings made by the FAA give some insight into how he would’ve been treated if there had been a less than happy ending. As the Wall Street Jounal reported:

1) In hindsight, the crew incorrectly pitched the nose of the aircraft down to gain the airspeed necessary to relight the engines thereby losing precious altitude and limiting their options.

[Dark Knight]

2) While ditching was the safest and easiest thing to do with the surest outcome, the event was replayed by airlines and manufacturers in simulators and all test pilots were able to return to LaGuardia for a safe landing.
3) Checklist procedures (though poorly designed) were not properly completed and the pressurization outflow valves remained open thus bringing water into the fuselage.
4) It was absurdly suggested that the crew committed one of the most common violations of federal air regulations: They broke sterile cockpit, the rule that proscribes having conversations not pertinent to the safe operation of an aircraft below ten thousand feet. This rule would be cited a month later when the transcript of Colgan flight 3407 showed the crew was talking about fatigue, low pay and long commutes to work without adequate rest before that plane crashed.
5) Even advocates for the manufacturer tried to diminish the accomplishment by pointing out how an Airbus, designed with a European socialist mentality takes the pilot out of the equation, not only prevents a “dumb pilot” from stalling or over-speeding an aircraft but, in this situation, ensured that they had hydraulic power and instrumentation despite the loss of engine driven pumps and generators.

So why is Sullenberger, who never put himself on a pedestal higher than others, a hero to so many airline pilots? Simply put, it’s because he has used his fame to draw attention to the plight of his profession. When the Republican airline pilot appeared before Congress he said: “Flying has been my lifelong passion, but while I love my profession, I do not like what has happened to it. My decision to remain in the profession I love has come at tremendous cost to me and my family. My pay was cut by 40 percent and my contractual entitlement to a retirement pension was stripped away ... Airline pilots do not live in a vacuum, and we understand fully and are sympathetic to the fact that many Americans have recently experienced economic difficulties. But, airline employees have been hit by an economic tsunami ... I attempt to speak accurately and plainly, so please do not think I exaggerate when I say that I do not know a single professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps.”

As someone with aviation pursuits outside of his career, it’s a fair guess that he is a member of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, an organization whose relationship to pilots is analogous with the one between the NRA and gun owners. Perhaps, he read the June 2006 AOPA Pilot article “The Glory Days Are Over” written with great anguish by Capt. Barry Schiff. The 73-year-old Schiff spent three decades at TWA flying everything in their fleet; and has managed to get checked out in over 300 different aircraft types for recreation. He described his post-World-War-II career as one characterized by rising pay and improved working conditions with each contract renewal, but in retrospect.

That era came to an end in 1978 when President Jimmy Carter’s deregulated of the airline industry. When Schiff’s son Brian was hired as a pilot in 1989, the future looked bleak because, as a result of deregulation and all the changes which followed, he would surely work harder and for less pay than his dad. Things went from bad to worse for this young 727 captain when TWA merged with American Airlines. In two years he went from the left seat to the right seat to the street. He now flies a regional jet for the American subsidiary American Eagle. Schiff’s other son Paul bounced around at regional airlines for over six years but never made as much as $30,000 a year, and the little that he did earn was quickly eaten up in the expenses associated with working 21 days a month away from home. Paul Schiff had no social life and no hope of settling down because, even if he had the time to meet someone, he couldn’t afford to date with an empty wallet. After much agonizing, he left the profession and opened up a pet supply company.

While Schiff Senior concludes that he cannot recommend the pilot profession any longer, he conceded that “Coping with the challenges of weather, communing with nature in a way only pilots can appreciate, and manoeuvring a sophisticated aircraft from one place on Earth to another remains a stimulating and gratifying endeavour. It is the price one must pay to get there that is so discouraging.”

This love of flying is what makes this career unique, and it is this love which makes flying part of their identity as pilots. Most can look back to their youth and recall always looking up at planes that flew overhead and drawing doodles of aircraft in class when they should have been paying attention to the teacher. Can an attorney say that he dreamt of trying cases when he was in grammar school? This infatuation explains the pilot’s willingness to work in horrid conditions but it also explains the sacrifices of time and money which people are willing to incur to become an airline pilot; it also explains how the airlines can use this infatuation to drive down wages. Only within a minority of pilots trained at the expense of the military can there be found individuals for whom flying is just a job; second to being an officer. Many aircraft manufacturers wrongly assumed after WWII that the returning pilots would want to own their own light aircraft. Acting on this erroneous assumption, the aircraft builders produced such a glut of personal planes, which went unsold, that most went out of business. After a while, planes like Buckley’s Ercoupe could be purchased by college students. The fact that both president Bushes and John McCain never touched the controls of an aircraft again after leaving the military isn’t any more exceptional today than it was then.

Unlike other first world countries, the U.S. has usually been able to rely on a pipeline of pilots from the military, particularly when airline opportunities were too few for one to justify the training investment themselves. Recognizing that military flying entails its own set of skills, a set of skills not completely congruent with the skills needed to fly commercial planes, legacy carriers such as All Nippon Airlines, Japan Air, Lufthansa, AlItalia and many others eschewed pilots trained in the military and preferred to rely on ab-initio programs to train their pilots themselves. This usually means that the theoretical training is accomplished in the home country and practical training is done in the U.S.A. where the cost of flying is less than prohibitive due in part to an abundance of low paid American flight instructors trying to build flight time in the hopes of breaking into airline flying themselves. Closely monitored along the way, these pilots have been safely placed in the cockpits of jetliners with less experience than most pilots hired stateside through affirmative action quotas.

The ‘60s saw the only true pilot shortage in the United States. It was short lived, but it forced airlines to train their own pilots. From this group emerged men like future MEC chairmen Rick Dubinsky and Roger Hall two of the fiercest champions of unionized pilots ever seen on the property of United Airlines.

U.S. commercial aviation’s love affair with the military is, however, about more than just avoiding the costs of training pilots. While it’s true that one can hardly distinguish the background of a pilot after a few years with an airline, as new hires, military pilots are often the least militant of labor groups. Until the end of the first contract negotiation they experience, their peers will often view them as Kool-Aide drinkers easily swayed by managerial agitprop.

The year 1919 saw the first attempts to unionize Air Mail pilots. When the Post Office forced its pilots to fly in the weather element they feared the most, namely, fog, the pilots went on strike, and military pilots, who were more compliant than their union-affiliated colleagues, were brought in to break the strike. The results, for those unfamiliar with instrument flying, were disastrous. The loss of personnel and aircraft that came about as a result of the government’s attempt to use docile military pilots to break the first strike resulted in a recognition of the authority of a pilot to determine when to fly and when not to and the equipping of the early mail planes with primitive weather instruments.

When the pilots of Century Airlines struck in 1932, Army and Navy pilots were released from active duty to take their places, and the Department of Commerce sent a special team to certify the new hires. Attempts by the nascent Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) to make their case to the new hires along with job promises for the strikebreakers fell on deaf ears and were further thwarted by the airline, which forced the new hires to live in a guarded dormitory, take their meals together, and ride to and from the airfield on a guarded bus.
In 1946, TWA was struck, and this time the pilots were threatened with replacement by an organization called the Military Pilots Association (MPA), a group of pilots flush with recent four engine experience and boasting 13,000 members, who had allegedly flown in the Air Transport Command. So brazen was this group that they took to calling pilots exempted from military duty because they were involved in essential service “draft dodgers” and they insisted upon receiving seniority rights over those already on the property if called upon to break the strike.

And this brings us to Ronald Reagan and the PATCO strike of 1981. According to Alan Greenspan, “Perhaps the most important, and then highly controversial, domestic initiative was the firing of the air traffic controllers in August 1981. The President invoked the law that striking government employees forfeit their jobs, an action that unsettled those who cynically believed no President would ever uphold that law. President Reagan prevailed, as you know, but far more importantly his action gave weight to the legal right of private employers, previously not fully exercised, to use their own discretion to both hire and discharge workers.”

It seems the distinction between public employees and private employees makes it illegal for the former to strike but Greenspan thinks the termination emboldened private employers to respond similarly. In the years following Reagan’s successful attempt to break the strike, we were forced to endure an inadequate ATC system reminiscent of the third world, and it was the military that provided the replacements, even if in time the replacements would form NATCA and start to resemble the group they replaced.

[Dark Knight]

The transformation of the professional pilot from a goggled occupant of an open cockpit into an aristocrat of Labor whose work actions would be derided as "Cadillac Strikes" in the press did not happen accidentally nor was it the work of the Invisible Hand of the market. From the earliest days of ALPA under the tutelage of Captain Dave Behncke, pilots, who are by nature very individualistic, were cobbled together into a working, viable guild with self respect. Benefitting from a prescience that sometimes even eluded the airline builders of the past, such as the legendary Eddie Rickenbacker of Eastern or Juan Trippe of Pan American, Behncke devised pay scales that were tied to aircraft size and speed. While management may not have been able to look forward to days when airliners where bigger and faster than the DC-3, Behncke could. When technology allowed these planes to come on line, pilot pay went up automatically just as surely as profits; much to the chagrin of management. An early assault on pilot wages came in the form of the so-called Age 60 rule. Several airlines had tried and failed to impose mandatory retirement ages on their pilots outside of negotiations as the larger and faster aircraft were being delivered. The pioneer era pilots were approaching 60, and there was a concern that their longevity coupled to higher pay rates would cut into profits as would the longer times anticipated for training them. After the Korean War, airlines were flooded with applications from pilots who had jet experience and would work for less. No data ever gathered was able to prove that older pilots were less safe than younger pilots, but the law was rammed through because American Airlines president and founder C.R. Smith’s friend former Army Air Corps Lt. Gen. Elwood “Pete” Quesada had recently been named the first administrator of the newly created FAA by his former military commander, President Dwight D. Eisenhower. For more information on how this fraud was perpetrated go to:Young pilots riskier than the over-60s who are turned away | Center for Public Integrity (http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/483/) or Age 60 Rule History Frameset (http://www.age60rule.com/history_frameset.html).


As an interesting side note, Fr. Theodore Hesburgh, former president of Notre Dame University, was a proponent of mandatory early retirement and wrote letter to the administrator who, in a rare moment of candor, admitted that there was no medical evidence to support his decision. After passage of the mandatory retirement bill, the forcibly retired pilot could then be employed at a commuter airline and work in that more physiologically demanding environment but the compensation was significantly less.


Even after saddling themselves with multiple alimony payments, older pilots remain incapable of seeing how their grief resulted from living a lie as the poster boys for the Sexual Revolution. The envy of arab shiekhs with a more modest harems, these well-healed and fit flyboys enjoyed a desirable ratio with attractive, young unmarried women who ran around in the back of the plane. The younger generation is now convinced it missed out on something good by being born too late. The Playboy-Pilot era is best exemplified in by the movie The Pilot starring Cliff Robertson, a film which, according to one pilot blogger “has realistic DC8 flying/checklists (Cliff Robertson got typed for the film). It has booze (lots), a mistress on the opposite coast (he bids transcons for this reason), great late ‘70s cut uniforms/hairstyles with stewardesses' skirts high cut enough to exonerate all of us for choosing this NOW **** profession.”

As a member of what is already the most psychologically analyzed profession what does this pilot-blogger think of all the gay men who have now squeezed those young girls out of the profession and the sensitivity training he must now submit to? It’s doubtful that he perceives it as just the next phase in the use of sexual liberation as a means of control.

How, you ask, does business benefit from this distraction? Consider the fact that airlines were among the first to make contraceptives part of their benefits packages. While it makes business sense for an airline to open up a crew base in some far flung place, isn’t it easier to order the relocation of a deracinated pilot with a broken or non-existent marriage and no kids? And if that makes sense in terms of driving down wages and increasing control, then wouldn’t the ideal employee then be a military trained homosexual?

It is true that the flight deck had been, with few exceptions, the preserve of the white male. Relying on the military pipeline would almost assure that. Prior to the ‘60s I don’t think people gave it much thought since they probably didn’t identify themselves in those terms but rather along regional or ethnic lines. But the fact remains: the two biggest groups making up the pilot population were southern whites and ethnic Catholics. It would take affirmative action to unite them in an ugly way, so that now you can ask any “white” airline pilot what UNITED stands for and he’ll come back with: Unqualified Niggers in Training, Expect Delays.” Of course, their reclassification as “whites” was abetted by the flight to the suburbs made easier by the fact that they seldom commuted daily to work and almost never at rush hour.

Ethnic Catholics have traditionally been over represented in the transportation industry and had growing political clout. Combined with the baby boom, the fact that their presence in the military was out of proportion to the general population assured the growth of this group in the pilot profession. I contend that they could have more easily assimilated Hispanics and blacks naturally. Instead they were forced to accept that they along with other “whites” had a debt to pay for past injustices beyond their control.

The surge in members of the fairer sex on the flight deck was first brought about by the courts but later eagerly promoted by the human resource departments. Books can be written on the short term costs to airlines of these policies, and stories of incompetence abound whenever pilots gather, but most were and still are quite capable of performing their job.

Large airlines have already demonstrated that they have, due to the long upgrade times, the capacity to hire and train pilots with very little experience such as the tactical military pilot who typically flies one-tenth as much in a year as a regional pilot. Unlike police departments and firehouses that went through similar social engineering experiences, women never put any one in this field in danger because of their lack of upper-body strength. As senior captains internalized the commands of their oppressors, they became intimidated by the possibility of being charged with sexual harassment. Comics have averred that it is now possible for a flight attendant to get a pilot pregnant, but perhaps the larger social consequence of sexual favoritism has been that it is easier for a daughter to follow in her father’s footsteps than a son. All of these things had the effect of weakening the cohesiveness of the pilot group and decreasing the value of its labor through an increase in the size of the workforce.

The period following deregulation saw the smashing of unions by corporate raiders such as Frank Lorenzo and the establishment of non-union “alter ego” companies that took business away from unionized carriers with the same owners. Like the thugs who steal cars, Lorenzo found that airlines were sometimes worth more for their parts than as a whole.

Exacerbating the divisive effect which cheaper labor working at nonunion airlines had on the industry, the individualistic traits of pilots allowed management to play groups off against one another. In 1982, two-tiered pay scales were devised "to protect the pay of senior pilots" when in fact they were intended to give unequal pay for equal work and prevent new hires under the infamous "B-scale" from ever seeing compensations rates like their colleagues on a different track. The deviousness of the “B-scale” was that it played to myopia and greed of the pilots who voted for it by pitting pilots currently working against those who weren’t even hired. [FTL2]

Some pilot groups were sold the notion that pay scales should be governed by longevity and not by equipment flown. Companies would save money on cross training crews to different fleets and pilots could stay in their preferred aircraft and forego jeopardizing their careers by not having to be trained and checked on new aircraft types every few years in order to get a raise. Such pyramidal pay structures, while initially appealing to junior pilots who can't see themselves ever having the seniority to bid the largest equipment, never give the best pay to all crews. In fact, with a carrot at the apogee, they only induce pilots at the bottom to perform the same tasks for less in anticipation of a move, with time, to the top. When the pyramid gets too top heavy, management cries for concessions.

Then came the Regionals.

Whether an individual Regional Airline existed in some form before the 1980s is irrelevant because even most major airlines in the early years would be characterized by regional activities by the standards of today’s modern intercontinental jets. When I used the term “regional” I’m referring to the subcontractors which are not really airlines in the classical sense. Unlike the airlines which share their paint schemes, regionals are not able to increase market share through advertising, adding routes and destinations, increasing the number of fights or tweaking fares. So-called regional airlines agree to carry the passengers of a mainline carrier for a set price, and the only way they are able to increase their profit margins is through the streamlining of the

[Dark Knight]

operation. Sometimes this comes from operating newer more efficient aircraft, but in the end it usually comes about through cutting the costs of salaries, training and maintenance. There is intense competition between regional airlines for these contracts, and their options are that limited.

Major airlines have now shifted so much of their flying over to regional partners that we are now in a situation where regionals make up the backbone of the domestic route structure. The pilots of major airlines were only been able to slow this process through what are known in the industry as “Scope agreements.” Pilot contracts attempted to limit the flying performed by regional partners by restricting the capacity and range of regional aircraft. The efforts to stop the chipping away of these constraints have been in vain. In 1997, the pilots of American Airlines struck to prevent American Eagle from acquiring regional jets, but then-President Bill Clinton ordered them back to work after 30 minutes. When they engaged in a sick out in 1999 over the farming out of flights to Reno Air, the union representing the American pilots was nearly fined out of existence. After calling them cry babies and comparing the pilots to the Mafia, Judge Joe Kendall declared: "If the activity and consequent damages continue, when all the dust clears, all the assets of the union, including their strike war chest, will be capable of being safely stored in the overhead bin of a Piper Cub." Kendall was even bold enough to trot out the old canard that because pilots are limited to 100 hours of flying per month, they were part-time employees, when their actual duty times frequently doubles this figure and includes time they are not compensated for.

Federal law may require the name of the regional airline operating your flight to be listed on the ticket and somewhere along the outside of the plane, but as far as airline executives are concerned, they’d prefer you to assume you were flying on the mainline carrier, unless there’s is a crash, at which point the liability assumed by the contracting regional kicks in. Unfortunately, it has taken the deadly crashes of some regional aircraft to highlight the abysmal working conditions at regional airlines.

Low pay, long hours, debt, and despair typify the life of a regional airline pilot today. Michael Moore’s Capitalism: A Love Story probably introduced many people to this fact. He interviewed pilots who collected food stamps and were reprimanded for getting sick. He asked how a pilot who makes less than $20,000 per year can expect to pay off $100,000 in loans taken out to qualify for the job. For safety’s sake, the FAA limits the amount of hours a pilot can fly and be on duty, but it doesn’t prevent a pilot from holding a second job and showing up to work tired. Moore revealed that pilots waited tables, walked dogs and donated blood on their days “off.” It was refreshing to see that someone was bold enough to divulge this dirty secret on the silver screen.

Perhaps he didn’t want to push the bounds of credulity, but Moore missed entirely the other half of the story, which is that some of these pilots are in essence paying to ride up front. Given that regional pilots (flying planes that are starting to even look like what the majors are flying) are able to transition seamlessly to the mainlines, management at the regionals has devised training contracts and pay for training programs to curb attrition rates. Paying a living wage would defeat the purpose of regionals. By far the most egregious offender in this area is Gulfstream International which has expanded the idea to create another revenue stream.

During the Eastern Airlines strike of the late ‘80, Capt. Thomas L. Cooper, a strike breaker who proudly had “#1 Scab” emblazoned on his flight bag, founded a small on-demand air taxi which flew to Haiti and the Bahamas from South Florida. The company initially operated eight passenger piston powered Cessna 402s. Through a third party company named Avtar International, they did their pilot recruiting at job fairs and with ads placed in Flying magazine and glossy career oriented publications like Career Pilot and Piloting Careers. As the old ads in Flying show, for $8,900, a pilot could get 150 hours of real world multi engine experience as a first officer in an airline environment, all legally loggable toward the ATP. A military pilot or a flight instructor with the requisite 1,500 hours of total time for the Airline Transport rating (ATP) could attend a weekend course at ATP, Inc., where the test prep would put the SAT courses to shame. Through feedback, they had managed to whittle the test down to 200 potential questions, and the applicant would spend a few hours looking at answers on one of their proprietary PCs and then when he was confident enough, move to another computer and take the actual test. A test that would normally take hours could now be aced without reading the questions or pulling out the pilot’s slide rule or maps. The practical test in the airplane was similarly slipshod. Yet, after completing this program, such a pilot, provided he had an additional $15,000, could be a captain at Gulfstream International, though it’s doubtful with such limited experience himself whether he could provide any useful mentorship to his first officers.

Ideally, the first officer would complete his time and then be replaced by someone else with “a check book and a dream.” Not being in the military environment or in a European style ab-initio program, low time civilian pilots are faced with the old conundrum: how do you get a job without experience; how do you get experience without a job? At a stage in their career where flight time is more valuable to them than fair wages, paying less than it would cost them to rent the plane is an attractive proposition.

The program came with good news and bad news, neither of which was advertised. Because the program relied heavily on foreign nationals who could secure low interest educational loans but had difficulty obtaining the appropriate visas, U.S. pilots often had the chance to fly more hours than they purchased because this source of pilots was unreliable when the immigration laws were sporadically enforced with some vigor resulting in the deportation of pilots.

The bad news was, that these first officers, technically, weren’t required crew members and if passengers loads or other weight limitations dictated, they could be bumped from the flight. Hopefully, this would only happen stateside when it was easier to hitch a ride home.

Such conditioning quickly transformed the interning pilot into a groveling sycophant willing to sell out his peers and curry favor with management and the captains with whom he shared a room on layovers for the chance to work more without pay and ultimately log enough time to qualify to buy a paid position in the left seat.

As the airline grew, it transitioned to an all-turbine fleet which required two pilots, but it retained the pay-to-fly programs even when the airline evolved into a true regional replete with code sharing agreements and new paint schemes modeled after the airlines it served. Program costs increased with the size of the planes flown, for time spent in larger planes is worth more on one’s resume and topped out at $39,000 for 500 hours in the heaviest turbo-props. At one time, even Red Chinese were sponsored to fly there by their home country.

In 1995, in response to derision from the pilot community and the need for at least a core of co-pilots who were dependable, U.S. citizens were remunerated at a rate of $8 per “segment hour” or less then $10,000 a year. It was a reluctant move by management but was easily offset by increasing the cost of tuition. Nothing changed for the foreigners except that now their badges were stamped in red “Jumpseat Not Authorized.” The last thing the company wanted was someone riding in the cockpit of a major airline (particularly one they were code-sharing with) describing the program in broken English, because by now they were being compared to prostitutes.

It’s baffling to non pilots why a professional would submit himself to indentured servitude but such a path was, if all went well, the fastest route to the flight deck of a major airline short of a sex change, and the Gulfstream Training Academy literature has the data to support this claim.

Major airline pilots who were eager to have their kids follow them into the cockpit would solicit these pilots for information on the program’s ability to fast track one’s career and were undeterred by the fact that they were sending their sons to work for a bottom feeder that should’ve changed its call sign from “Gulf-flight” to “Catfish” a long time ago.

Next to Michael Moore’s movie, the second best description of life as a regional airline pilot can be seen in the PBS Frontline documentary “Flying Cheap”.

The program did a fair job of depicting the long hours and low pay endured by those who fly passengers who are convinced they are flying on the planes of a different company. The underground market of crash pads where 10 pilots share an apartment intended for 2 people was fairly depicted. No consideration was given to the increasing complexity of aircraft being flown at the regional level, but the major shortcoming of the program was the inchoate manner in which it elucidated the relationship between mainline pilots and regional pilots. It correctly explained that there was no mentoring or even any actual contact between the two when they are performing their jobs. While it correctly stated that regional airline pilots were able to upgrade to captain much more quickly than major airline pilots, the attractiveness of this is not the higher pay but the fact that it enables such a pilot to log valuable pilot in command (PIC) time making him more attractive to the recruiters at major airlines although probably not the major airline he’s currently serving as a regional pilot

[Dark Knight]

because airlines prefer to raid a competitor’s cheap labor supply rather than their own. Logging valuable flight time quickly is why pilots often seek out employment at the least reputable airlines. Recall that Gulfstream even hired pilots straight into the captain’s seat.

Although “Flying Cheap” seemed more like a serious documentary than Moore’s box office flick, it did stoop to histrionics in the production department. Most glaring was the way in which they inserted audio of piston engines over the turbine whine of the Bombardier Dash 8. Such melodrama plays to the ignorance of people who don’t understand that short range, low altitude aircraft are more efficient with external propellers even if they don’t really sound like DC-3s.

Nevertheless, they could’ve used this track to dub over the expert testimony of the former DOT Inspector General Mary Schiavo. You can always count on “Scary Mary” to show up whenever an airliner crashes, but her presence seems to prove that industry and government will tolerate criticism as long as it’s easily refuted and the source has been discredited. Her best seller Flying Blind, Flying Safe contained so many factual errors, such as a completely erroneous description of how pressurization works, that the real experts were distracted by offering corrections to these errors and away from fixing what’s truly wrong with the industry. In 1999, she correctly surmised that airport security was weak and tried to make her case by checking a fake bomb (a bag with shoes and telephone cables) onto an airliner in Ohio and then deliberately not boarding the plane. The scheme blew up in her face when “the bomb” was immediately detected and resulted in the shutting down of the airport until she came forward and confessed to cameras while trying to invoke journalistic immunity. This woman has blown nearly every opportunity that crashes offer to reform the industry.

Nevertheless, if you go to the PBS website, the text of the entire interview can been seen. The fact that it was axed from the final cut that aired on TV is proof of the saying that even a blind sow can find a truffle.

FRONTLINE: So why doesn't free enterprise, the capitalist system, work in this industry?
Schiavo: Because safety is like a rubber band. It doesn't work because you can stretch it. Planes -- a lot of them are just great. They're overbuilt. The big, old, tough Boeings were forgiving. You can stretch safety, and sometimes you don't get caught. Why? Because you can skate on by.

And bad operators can skate. Good operators often aren't rewarded for their good efforts on safety. And even when something does go wrong, they're not held accountable because the insurers step in. They take care of the issue. The bad actors are free to go forward and fly again. If you wanted any evidence of that, it's the secretary of transportation standing on the Everglades, on the backs of the downed ValuJet plane.

And there really is no accountability that you expect from a true free-enterprise system, and that is that the bad are allowed to fail. That's part and parcel of the free-enterprise system. But in aviation, the bad don't fail. The bad go to bankruptcy court, come out washed. Every seven years, it's like a pilgrimage. They go through the bankruptcy court. The bankruptcy trustee wipes out the debt, often wipes out what's owed to hardworking pilots and flight attendants and everybody else.

And this is an industry that simply does not work. It does not operate in the free-enterprise system. So why do we pretend that it does? It doesn't. It operates in this gray area. It's partially regulated. The government pays for a huge hunk of it. The government now pays for security. The Aviation Trust Fund pays for air traffic control, and the runways and the airports -- you can't even get an airport anymore without -- I mean, we get a new airport in this country, what, every decade or so? And then you have to float the bonds, and it's run by a regional airport authority. That's not free enterprise!

So there's really nothing in this system that is free enterprise -- except the red ink.

Then just when it sounds as if she’s on to something, Schiavo up and calls a state of the art aircraft a “puddle jumper.”

Unlike basketball where free agency enables players to move freely among teams seeking the best deals, the pilot profession severely penalizes lateral movement.

The seniority system gets blamed for protecting bad pilots, but it also takes away bargaining leverage even during times of shortage because it requires that they start over at the bottom even if it is at a better airline. They are married to the company and dependent upon its success for their careers more than any other employees.

An airline pilot’s bad decisions can’t be saved by a parachute, neither nylon nor golden but CEOs manage to play musical chair amongst themselves.

It is for this reason that ALPA can take credit for many of the advances in safety such as improvements in navigation, equipment that helps avoid midair collisions and Controlled Flight into Terrain (CFIT) and work rules that take into account things like the body’s circadian rhythms and thus prevent schedulers from treating pilots like cogs in a machine. They have even instituted immunity guaranteeing self-disclosure programs that help to prevent accidents by providing researchers with data they would likely never see because so many slip-ups are never caught by the regulators. As the ones who typically arrive at the scene of an accident before anyone else, pilots had a vested interest in using their clout to force these improvements into law long before CEOs, lawyers, passengers, law makers and bean counters ever recognized the benefit. Through the years, ALPA’s motto has been: Schedule with Safety.

The crashes of regional airliners have thus far been unable to bring about any significant improvement. The recent crash of Colgan 3407 is prompting legislators to require regional airline pilots to have 1,500 of flight time before flying for an airline, but no consideration is given to the quality of the experience. Such a rule might harm schemes like the one at Gulfstream International, which has had no fatal accidents, but it would not have affected the Colgan 3407 flight, where the crew exceeded those qualifications. Training also escapes scrutiny, and no one is asking why the crew responded to a stall resulting from a decay in airspeed on approach and performed a recovery technique suited to a tail-plane stall resulting from ice around the very time operators, with FAA approval, were starting to introduce this seldom met phenomenon into their training curricula.

Following some prominent regional crashes in the mid-‘90s, Congress passed the infamous Pilot Record Improvement Act of 1996. Rather than look at training or working conditions, airlines were going to be made safer by tracking bad pilots and screening them out. Improvements wouldn’t be made to training, only the keeping and sharing of records. Under the law, before a pilot can be employed by another carrier, his current and previous employers must release all training and disciplinary records. The pilot is supposed to be offered the opportunity to dispute anything negative but releases his company from liability for any inaccuracies transmitted through paperwork reflecting judgements made through very subjective criteria. Not only does such a policy prevent a pilot from quietly seeking employment elsewhere, but it hampers whistle blowing and has been documented as a pilot retention technique at regionals like Trans States, where failure rates were up to 80 percent are used to show the FAA they had really high standards. Even more absurd, the law doesn’t require the airline doing the hiring to even consider what’s in the information packet when it arrives, and applicants from the military are exempt.

Regional airline industry growth came about as a result of circumventing expensive labor contracts at the mainlines, but now they are exerting a downward pressure there to the point where Sullenberger’s retirement depends upon re-telling his story for an income. Is it practical for every pilot to ditch a jet at the end of his career in lieu of a pension? This story will get old really fast.

Flying on Regional Airlines is inescapable domestically unless passengers restrict themselves to Southwest Airlines. With Sullenberger and Schiff advising against becoming pilots for even major airlines, how do the regionals expect to fill their cockpits now that the carrot of eventual employment with a major airline is less attractive and more elusive with airlines shifting more of their flying over to regionals?

After decades of telling pilots that the next hiring boom is around the corner and subscribing them to glossy career magazines with interview prep questions, statistics to compare themselves to, resume writing services, featured airline of the month articles, etc, the premier counseling service AIR, Inc. closed its doors on 2/13/2009 with the words: “It has been an honor and a privilege to serve you during the past 20 years. However, the current status of the airline industry and the economy has made our business unsustainable, and we are closing.” Prospective pilots just aren’t going to get this kind of pep talk from their guidance counselors.

The prospect of a job with a major airline has motivated many regional pilots to keep their records clean by flying safely, but now as despair sets in we’re seeing the effects of low wages.

Flying has been described as hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror and that is why complacency is the biggest killer.

When Comair flight 191 lined up with the wrong runway at 7am in Lexington, Kentucky the crew made a fatal error that costs the lives of all but the first officer by over running a runway that was too short to their plane to become airborne. Their complacency was fed according to the NTSB by:

a failure to use available cues and aids to identify the airplane's location on the airport surface during taxi and their failure to cross-check and verify that the airplane was on the correct runway before takeoff. Contributing to the accident were the flight crew's nonpertinent conversations during taxi, which resulted in a loss of positional awareness and the Federal Aviation Administration's failure to require that all runway crossings be authorized only by specific air traffic control clearances.

The first officer apparently grew impatient waiting for a major airliner to recruit him and took this job after working at Gulfstream International.

Pinnacle Flight 3701 was a repositioning ferry flight with no passengers that turned into a deadly joy ride to exploit the capabilities of an empty regional jet. On the way up to the CRJ-200’s maximum altitude, the crew ignored several warnings and induced a flameout of both engines. From 41,000 feet their time in the glide seems like an eternity next to Sullenberger’s but fear of reprisal kept them from declaring an emergency. A prompt declaration would have given them preferential handling by ATC and several viable options. Instead, as their boredom turned to terror, and they tried cover up their recklessness with more deviations from standard operating procedures. In the end, they overflew four diversionary airports and crashed and burned two miles short of the fifth behind a row of houses in the dark. Both pilots had worked for Gulfstream International and had presumably given up hope of working for a major airline.

Prior to the crash of the aforementioned Colgan 3407, the crew had been chattering about their appalling working conditions. The captain was a demoralized former pilot at Gulfstream International.

After the decline of the entire profession which resulted from the shift to regional airlines, we now find ourselves in a mess with no way out. The bottom has yet to be reached.

Last year, Gulfstream International was fined $1.3 million for falsifying crew member flight times. The very airline that has employee spaying to work for them can’t seem to exploit then enough, and now has pilots flying beyond FAA limits. That fine, added to one incurred for the ignominious distinction of being caught using car parts on their planes, has forced the company into bankruptcy, and yet they continue to fly.

Jobs at the majors are too few and increasingly too unattractive to entice pilots to work for food stamp wages at the regionals which now make up the backbone of the domestic airline system. Nobody but a fool would invest the time and money necessary to become an airline pilot with these limited prospects. Some will continue to fly and slowly pay down debt or because, while Burger King may pay better, leaving aviation even temporarily could make all their efforts for naught. Along with flight time, employers want to see currency and recency of experience. They want to hire pilots who are working as pilots and pilots not flying find it difficult and expensive to get themselves re-qualified.

It’s doubtful that the airlines will be able to fall back on the supply of social engineered military pilots soon to arrive with new tolerances. Last year, the Air Force trained more pilots to fly UAVs than fixed wing aircraft. Until the fantasy of unmanned airliners comes to fruition, these pilots are best advised to stay in the service because for now only the electronics department of Best Buy or the local hobby shop will appreciate their skills with radio controlled aircraft. The stagnation and low pay at the majors offer little enticement for entering civilian aviation and the demands of regional aviation with its compressed training schedules can be a rude awakening. When the parent company of American Airlines and American Eagle (AMR) got the Eagle pilots to sign an 18 year contract it did so not by offering better working conditions at Eagle but rather offering the carrot of a potential “flow through” of its senior pilots to American. The unanticipated events of 9/11 brought, instead, a “flow back” of junior American Airlines pilots, like Brian Schiff, to American Eagle.

[Dark Knight]

Flowing back as well were some American Airlines new hires with very little civilian time who found it difficult to get through training.

The saddest thing about this story is that we didn’t need to go down this path. As mentioned before, Southwest Airlines does not use regionals. All passengers with Southwest tickets fly on Southwest even on short routes, something which demonstrates that the term “regional” as applied to aviation is probably a misnomer. Southwest is a product of the deregulation environment to be sure, and it’s never been a glamorous affair for passengers who are loaded as if into the back of a cattle car. Yet, while they provide very competitive airfares to the consumers with the most productive employees in the industry, its crews are among the most unionized and best compensated, and Southwest has never had an unprofitable quarter.

None of this was an accident. Southwest’s founder Herb Kelleher invested a lot of time and money into creating a culture employees were proud to be a part of. This is reflected in its NYSE abbreviation: LUV and by the renaming of its Human Resources Department to “People Department.” If anyone doubts Southwest’s commitment to a business philosophy at odds with the mindset of a Harvard MBA graduate, pick up a copy of Nuts! Southwest Airlines’ Crazy Recipe for Business and Personal Success and read, if nothing else, chapter headings like: Hire for Attitudes and Train for Skills, Act Like an Owner, One Great Big Family, and Customers Come Second.

Kelleher’s belief was that if an airline treats its employees right, the employees will in turn treat the travellers right. It is a radical concept but one that has given birth to an enviable Esprit de Corps which shows no sign of waning.

Further Required Reading:

Flying the Line. The First Half Century of the Air Line Pilots Association by George E. Hopkins
Flying the Line vol.2 The Line Pilot Crisis: ALPA Battles Airline Deregulation and Other Forces by George E. Hopkins
Grounded: The Inside Account of How Frank Lorenzo Took Over and Destroyed Eastern Airlines.


Here Endeth the Lesson

[Ollie Onion]

This is a pilot forum so naturally the focus of discussions will fall towards pilot pay and conditions. As I stated before, the package that Qantas pilots and indeed a lot of staff are on are pretty good and I do NOT begrudge anyone these terms and conditions or their right to defend them. There is no doubt that Qantas management have done an appalling job of steering the ship and should be ashamed of themselves, that though does not change the point that the was Qantas is structured doesn't really fit in the modern age. My previous employer found its way into quite serious financial trouble during the GFC land came cap in hand to ALL the unions. My observation during that time was that if the union was willing to have meaningful negotiations the outcome for that particular group was vastly superior to those how failed to negotiate. As a pilot group we played our part by:

- Raising overtime thresholds
- Increasing the number of steps to the top pay from 24 to 30 years (smaller yearly increments)
- agreeing a freeze to overtime, allowances etc for 3 years
- working with the company on a VR deal for those who wanted it

In return for this the company allowed the Union to appoint an accounting agency and opened their books to the Union to show the situation was as advertised and also gave us some nil cost incentives such as enhancements to our staff travel, accessibility to unpaid / paid leave and part time.

Overall this lead to an immediate 8 - 12% saving to the company in Flight Ops costs. What strikes me about the current Qantas EBA's is that some of them are decades behind, the 12 pay steps is in this day and age very generous.

Of course the other side of the coin is that to be able to have a meaningful outcome of negotiations is that the Company must be willing to be open and flexible just as they expect the unions to be.

The unions in OZ worry me a bit as they do seem to be out of touch, when you had Barry Jackson rebutting media claims that an A380 Captain earns $500,000 per year by saying 'that is wrong, the average Captain ONLY earns $415,000' then I would say reality has been lost to the extent that this kind of public declaration makes the public think the Pilots are a bunch of greedy @&$/ers. You need public support during disputes and restructuring as it can pressure the company to resolve issues rather than going nuclear.

I guess what I am saying is that I am glad someone in this industry has the kind of terms and conditions that make the rest of us green and I hope you are successful in retaining these for at least the current group. Just be aware that when you say that your pay is not that 'great' and publish figures like the $415,000 don't expect much sympathy and support. I just hope the time for constructive talks is still available and we are not at the nuclear stage yet as I can say from experience this leads to a lot of ruined lives and careers.

[FYSTI]

Ollie, one thing to note:
Increasing the number of steps to the top pay from 24 to 30 years
...
the 12 pay steps is in this day and age very generous
Given the tiered system between aircraft type the A380 Capt figures you quote ARE the 30+ year increment. It is a different system, however, the outcome appears to be very similar to your previous contract. There are a very small number of crew who could ever hope to make it to the left hand seat of the A380.

And yes, it is unfortunately about perception. If even one A380 captain makes $500K, then every other Q pilot is tarred with the perception of "exorbitant" T&Cs, even those on the S/H contract . It is a classic anchoring heuristic, or bias.

[moa999]

Australopithicus
Fill your bootsAnd that attitude will send Qantas to the Wall.

Short-term a business may be able to sustain a smaller competitor with employees on lower, more flexible arrangements.
Longer term, they are f&^^$%

Look at all the private catering, ground handling providers etc eating Qantas for breakfast

Same reason why Borghetti is in a much better position than Joyce. Much easier to start with a low cost base and increase it, keeping employees happy, versus starting with a high cost base and trying to compete -- perverse that the guy paying less is actually liked more.

Until the pink slip hits, a lot of denial around.

[noip]

Moa,

At least Lucy eventually conquered the world ... as opposed to you who became extinct.

Give it a break ..please! ..

All I can conclude from your rantings ... is ... You are an idiot / have nothing to contribute.

click.

N

[Fred Gassit]

ENT on 3 mill a year? Bloody hell I thought grommets went out of fashion in the 80s!

[Australopithecus]

Moa...yes, fill your boots. Knock yourself out. Whatever.

I do not get a vote on what T & Cs other pilots find fair or necessary to accept.

I cannot change it either. So what's your point? Qantas management used to bang on about having pay parity with Virgin. They don't say that much anymore. Jetstar insisted its pilots needed to be on par with Tiger. Right up until Tiger got a 27% raise. Now of course parity would be irresponsible.

Do yourself a favour and put me on your ignore list if you find my posts offensive. I won't be limiting my submissions to gain your irrelevant approval.

[Oakape]

Thanks Dark Knight - good read.

Spotted this in the middle -

Even advocates for the manufacturer tried to diminish the accomplishment by pointing out how an Airbus, designed with a European socialist mentality takes the pilot out of the equation, not only prevents a “dumb pilot” from stalling or over-speeding an aircraft, ....

I guess that the French F/O on the AF447 Airbus A330 must have been a "smart pilot" then.

[ratpoison]

I guess that the French F/O on the AF447 Airbus A330 must have been a "smart pilot" then.
Classic response. :D:D

[The Professor]

“How about actual competitors. Let's say, CX and EK, just to pluck two.”

That’s great, they are airlines with similar cockpit labor costs to Qantas. But to benchmark Qantas labor costs against 2 airlines while ignoring the other 45 competitors is completely pointless. I hope I never buy a house from you!

“Qantas was offered a genuine opportunity in 2010/11 to negotiate, it chose not to. I also note you have scrupulously avoided this topic in your arguments”

I have indeed offered my thoughts regarding the very soft offers made by the various labor unions in Qantas before. Without covering too much old ground, do you really believe the pilot group offered substantial labor cost savings that would have significantly improved the CASM at your airline and placed Qantas on par with the airlines inflicting the lions share of damage?

“What would the Qantas financial position look like without the massive offshore expansion over the decade?”

It would look much better in the short term while ignoring the long-term imperative of off shoring the brand in order to avoid becoming marginalized.

“45 years of strikes would also prove it”

Not necessarily. Industrial action is often an indication that the balance of power lies with the employer, not the organized labor group. To see second officers enjoying the ridiculous conditions they do for the meager operational return they provide the company following no strike action “in 45 years” is ample evidence of where the power lies.

“Labour = work Labor = $hithouse political party”

Again, been covered before but where I live and consult; there is no Labour party but an abundance of labor.

“Tell us, what changes to pay and conditions of Staff since then have been responsible for the parlours state of the Company's finances now being experienced?”

No changes. Qantas has made use of favorable trading conditions to absorb the high labor costs in the past. Indeed, for most of its history, Qantas could operate as a viable entity virtually free of concern for labor costs. But as the market changes, so must the airlines cost structure.

Exchange rates, Government policy, foreign competition, changing consumer preferences and many other factors have depleted Qantas’s market share significantly and yet labor are still standing in line for a traditional bowl of gravy!

“Numerous people have told you that this has never been negotiated 'in good faith'”

Good faith according to what your labor union leaders tell you and what the business imperatives really are can be vastly different. As an airline manager in Australia and other parts of the globe I have witnessed first hand how closed door belligerence has been delivered to the troops as “good faith” rebuttal in the light of day.

V-jet,

“Licence on the line (and therefore your job) every 3 months likewise strict medicals every 12 months. An extremely through knowledge of Australian and International Transport Law (every country you fly to or over) is more than mandatory.
No such thing as public holidays, public holiday penalty rates etc. 17 hour work days are the norm and its rare to work all day. Extreme tiredness is the result. Personally I found International flying on the 76 the worst, occasionally bad enough to throw up on the side of the road driving home. 'Stop Revive Survive' signs always humoured me! You do not get home from work each day, generally 'going to work' means 7-10 days and nights away. Days away 'at work' are NOT considered hours at work.
13 years it took me before I had Christmas and New Year off in the same year....”

A laundry list of the demands placed upon shift workers such as pilots. But the market is compensating you for these hardships and if your labor is not being utilized to your satisfaction you should not offer it for sale as clearly you are not happy with the return!

“You cannot compare it to 9-5 M-F.”

No one is trying too.

[Fool Sufferer]

I seem to recall the absent minded professor not so long ago attempting to make the point in his usual patronising style that low pilot wages and adverse safety outcomes were in no way related.

This despite the findings of the final report into Colgan Air Flight 3407.

If this individual, with his slavish adherence to free market fundamentalism, is indeed an airline manager as proclaimed, then he is a very dangerous one.

[ferris]

But to benchmark Qantas labor costs against 2 airlines while ignoring the other 45 competitors is completely pointless. One doesn't need to ignore the 45 competitors- quite the opposite. You simply need to accept from this information the fact that pilot pay is not a driver of airline success. As evidenced by the existence of EK and CX and their pilot pay situation. I understand you desperatelywant to connect high wages for pilots with the problems at QF, but the objective facts don't support you. On the contrary- they refute you.
I also understand your desire to lump all 'labor' together. If you argued about skilled and unskilled labor, you might gain more traction- however, I suspect you realise this would be unpalatable to many Australians. Whilst the 'amercanisation' of Australia continues apace, we are not there yet (thankfully).

As what that has to do with selling houses- you've lost me (poorest attempt at a straw man I've seen in a while. )

[ramius315]

Just ignore The Professor.

Despite the name, after reading his/her posts sequentially it is quite obvious he/she failed first year Argument & Critical Reasoning at Uni.

Fly, fly away little Professor............

[Australopithecus]

On the contrary. The " Professor "is giving us the benefit of his valuable consulting insights for free! Worth every penny.

When I read "where I live and consult" in his last excretion it all became clear. Another Bain & Co agitprop specialist. Or second rate facimile therof.

[Hempy]

“45 years of strikes would also prove it”

Not necessarily. Industrial action is often an indication that the balance of power lies with the employer, not the organized labor group. To see second officers enjoying the ridiculous conditions they do for the meager operational return they provide the company following no strike action “in 45 years” is ample evidence of where the power lies.

I laughed so hard I almost choked on my coffee! That's bloody funny, comedic gold in fact!! Got any more?

I can just imagine the various Qantas CEO's over the last 45 years sitting in their leather chairs shivering in abject fear over a confrontation with those big, scary, POWERFUL Union blokes who have them cowered in the corner. How the airline has managed to survive at all is remarkable given those circumstances! :rolleyes:

[waren9]

whether you agree with professor or not, i gotta say he/she argues with a dispassionate clarity most others on here do not match. doesnt seem to get personal either. that i've read.

[ratpoison]

A laundry list of the demands placed upon shift workers such as pilots. But the market is compensating you for these hardships and if your labor is not being utilized to your satisfaction you should not offer it for sale as clearly you are not happy with the return!
Typical incompetent managerial rhetoric. As the old saying goes..... " if you can't do it, ineptness helps to manage and check it" :ugh:

[lexxie747]

why not all hand in your resignation? maybe this time it works.
maybe not, but at least i i will be bored for the next 15 years listening about how bad everyone was treated, and never one mention about personal stupidity accepting a decree by an outdated union.

[The Professor]

“low pilot wages and adverse safety outcomes were in no way related”

Which market are you referring to when formulating this conclusion?

“This despite the findings of the final report into Colgan Air Flight 3407.”

The 46 NTSB findings of the Colgan crash made no reference to low pilot salary contributing to the crash.

A quick look at the last decade of aircraft accidents and write offs here in the US indicate quite the opposite where the majority of events have occurred at carriers in the highest percentile of pilot wages and benefits. SWA/AAL/FDX/UPS.

“You simply need to accept…..”

No, I don’t simply need to accept anything and neither should you. Your opinion should be formed following research and analysis, not following the urging of someone to “simply accept”.

“….pilot pay is not a driver of airline success.”

Correct, I have not suggested this to be the case in all situations. Qantas will struggle to survive in its present form even with radical labor reform. It will fair a little better but will not guarantee its success. But the business still has imperatives that include cutting labor costs; no responsible business manager would overlook this, especially in a legacy carrier where there is plenty of room to move. As I have said before, the accountants at Qantas would be looking at Jetstar and asking: what exactly are we getting for our dollar that is worth paying such a premium for?

“I understand you desperatelywant to connect high wages for pilots with the problems at QF”

No, I don’t. I want you to understand that labor costs at an airline are vitally important especially at legacy carriers. This is NOT simply my opinion.

Ramius/Australo/hempy/ratpoison.

If you cant put forth an intelligent contribution then why don’t you just sit out for a while?

[oicur12.again]

I think all good airlines are constantly trying to gain productivity and cut costs even during good times. I suspect Qantas has not had its eye on the ball with this regard especially following the collapse of Ansett where market share and money were handed to them and cost control took a back seat for a while.

Southwest for example treat every year as a crisis year in focusing on cost, even when making gobs of cash. Its a little neive for pilots at major carriers like QF to think they will be left alone as the world changes around them.

[V-Jet]

Thats the point thats missed at Qf! Every successful business looks at each year as a crisis.

Staff at Qf are sick of seeing ridiculous wastage of hard won assets with no undertanding of what these precious resources are by the people throwing them away.

The entire Jetstar experiment is the ultimate example of incredible waste. Staff understand how much work has been put in to even have the assets to rape and destroy. Management see these resources as theirs to gamble with and waste. They are NOT airline people so dont recognise the difference between 'asset' and 'wastage'. Or.... They dont care. Either way, staff are justifiably sick of the wanton destruction.

Seriously - what business has EVER been able to buy brand new commercial assets to IMMEDIATELY store them at a cost of $4m a MONTH. And thahs just an obvious example, day to day examples are treating valuable routes that took years of negotiation to achieve rights on, being squandered in days like a drunken sailor in a brothel after months at sea. The systematic destruction is epic and truly appalling.

You have absolutely hit the nail on the head....

[Keg]

The entire Jetstar experiment is the ultimate example of incredible waste.

Second hand but $1.6 billion over the last decade according to Hickey who let the number drop.

[Australopithecus]

Hey Consultant...

When this becomes a forum for non-pilots to opine on relative salaries then I will bow out. What has incited you so? My disdain for consultants? My distaste for agitprop?

You are advancing a narrow argument about pilot pay, insisting that until we are paid the lowest common salary we are the problem.

Do your clients actually pay you to sing that one-note song?

As has been amply revealed to you, Qantas management have failed in just about every initiative they have attempted. The core business has no plans for routes or fleet. As you point out, even if we worked for nothing there would be no guarantee of success. So why would I accept lower T & Cs? So that Joyce could then argue for a bigger bonus?

I am not a Qantas lifer...and I do see many areas for improvement. I used to point out the gross inefficiencies that were evident, but over the last decade or so working for looters I stopped caring. The current and former CEO taught me well: grab as much as you can with both hands and blame the other guy.

For those who are not familiar with "agitprop", look it up. It is a method of swaying public opinion first developed by the early Soviets. It is in widespread use today, inciting outrage by yelling half-truths, then dividing opinion with what appears to be a reasoned counter argument. Fox News/Rush Limbaugh do this for the Koch Brothers. The Professor is attempting it for Clifford.

[Dale Hardale]

Removing any emotion from the period of 1989 - a strategic union decision for its' members to resign en masse strips away any legal negotiating power.


It is simply not an option.

[OneDotLow]

Second hand but $1.6 billion over the last decade according to Hickey who let the number drop.

I thought I had finished the grieving process and severed my emotional ties with QF, but reading this actually makes me a little sick. :ouch:

Imagine what could have been...

[virgindriver]

Second hand but $1.6 billion over the last decade according to Hickey who let the number drop.

Didn't JH say a few days ago that Jetstar has made a billion$ profit so far?

Hrdlicka says the group has generated more than $1 billion in profit

[Australopithecus]

Virgindriver...she did say that. The penalty for lying in this case is zero, but the rewards may include becoming the next CEO.

Also...Qantas has refused to fully open the books to legal internal funds transfer, property transfers, fees and charges paid by the International division etc.

Within the context of the market, it is only group guidance that must be accurate or have plausible deniability.

[Fool Sufferer]

The professor might care to re-read the Colgan Air 3407 report after removing his ideological blinkers.

An identified causal factor in the accident was the crew's commuting induced fatigue. 68% of Newark based Colgan pilots, including the two involved in the accident, were commuters. The reason for such a high proportion of commuters: the high cost of residing in the Newark area combined with the low wages company pilots received.

[V-Jet]

It is very difficult to explain extreme tiredness to people who don't fly. If you haven't experienced something yourself you cannot have an understanding of it.

Even Niki Lauda's experience of it was not long term and haphazard. Sure, if you turn up to do a long back of the clock flight once every month it is not a problem, but doing at least 3 or 4 every week for say 5 years has a very different effect.

[Keg]

Package is out. Essentially 12 months if you have more than 15 years of service. 9 months with less than that.

[Capt Kremin]

I love the spin..."is aligned with package offered executives".

Typical.

"We will treat you like executives, when it costs us less"

"Jetstar is a separate airline, unless it suits us to treat it otherwise".

[V-Jet]

Package is out. Essentially 12 months if you have more than 15 years of service.

Not this little black duck, nor any little black duck that I know of. Or anyone? Have they actually thought this through? I mean, at all?

[Flying Tiger]

Hey V-Jet, who's doing "long back of the clocks" 3 or 4 times a week for 5 years? You'd run out of hours pretty quick I'd say. Probably get 20 days off a month. Poor baby.

Maybe you should just concern yourself with all that international law and stuff...and everything else...you seem to be an expert on.

:D

[Captain Gidday]

Package is out. Essentially 12 months if you have more than 15 years of service.
Keg, what you say is correct, but that's the generous interpretation. To be factually correct, it is 9 months for the redundancy. The other 3 months is pay in lieu of notice.

[V-Jet]

Maybe you should just concern yourself with all that international law and stuff...and everything else...you seem to be an expert on.

Indeed. However I was making an allowance for crew who may not work on 14-16 hour sectors. One often makes the mistake of only seeing the world through one's own pond. The 767, for example, in Europe was/is considered a 'Long Haul' aircraft. In QF, it was considered Short Haul.

American Eagle pilots might not get the constant 12 hour time zone changes but they work a lot. My guess was at least 3-4 late nights a week.

Its an interesting point you allude to. Of my course, everyone on the 737 agrees it is a lot less tiring and you are home a lot more. But you are 'in the cockpit' a lot more days. The tiredness is different. You also might not be 'working' when you are away on a 380/744 pattern, but there is not a person at Qf who has not watched endless re-runs of CNN at 0300 when you are wide awake but been desperately tired at 1800 when you desperately need but are unable to sleep for the upcoming 16 hours. The 767 I found the worst, but a lot of people find the ultra long haul worse. Its horses for courses. What I can say is that personally it takes 2-3 days to be able to operate reasonably well after you get home from a long SYD-LHR trip. I will not attempt to talk to anyone or do any domestic things (like fixing squeaky doors or the TV aerial) for that long, because no matter how simple the task, I would invariably break whatever it was I tried to fix. The dog and wife would know to stay away and accept that whatever it was I was playing with would get broken. And god help any bank that called if I am late with a payment. Patience = zero.

You make light of the Law, and I understand where you are coming from, but if you are bored for a month, try to read the Jepp WWT and overlay it with the Aussie regs for any port you might divert to. It helps to know a reasonable amount about the political situation in those places as well and whether they have pavement strengths suitable, parking bays, tugs that can cope with big jets, refuellers/fuel/toilet/food and spares for whatever put you there in the first place. And you also consider the potential for immigration at 0200, hotel accommodation for 400 pax at short notice, medical availability. Things like (and BGA is helping out lot here by reducing the network so efficiently) NEVER being allowed to divert to mainland China if you have blasted out of Taiwan. etc etc etc etc etc.

[C441]

Everyone knows the QF flight and legacy cabin crews enjoy massive conditions that are only matched in scale by their ego's and arrogance.

You speak of me and many of my colleagues with such passion but I don't believe we've met.

It may surprise you to know that I agree there are indeed some in the organisation, as in all areas of human existence, that are exactly as you describe. The other 95% are just normal blokes/blokettes who have been lucky enough to have been employed by a once great company for which they have a great loyalty despite its current problems.

You might also be surprised to hear what many would give up to ensure it returns even part of the way to its former quality.....but only if its led by someone with a vision of a great airline in their sights, not an ordinary organisation that rewards a few with gold for achieving short term goals of little substance.

[Roo]

If you have been at QF as long as you say you have 25 plus years , and I suspect you are just a failed wannabe , you would clearly have WB command with Wages at $400K gross , $240K clear.
FB, Where do you pull this bullsh1t from? 25 plus years here, WB command and my gross is ~ 140k shy of your mooted 400k. Who feeds you this rubbish?

[Al E. Vator]

Mr Flyboat do calm down
The QF pilots should be what Australian pilots aspire to not try to savage - thats' being sufficiently well doe by managers such that we don't need fellow aviators doing the same nonsense.
I haven't ever worked for QF but I have worked O/S for far greater wages and it can be done.
Suggest you need to stop referring to silly old tossers and focus your energies on the real culprits behind the demise of QF and other great airlines around the world - inept managers who can leave to work in mining companies or wherever once they have wreaked havoc as has happened at QF.

[ratpoison]

Mate. You should consider a career as a motivational speaker, you are truly inspiring.
Now that was bloody funny. :D

[blueloo]

You guys bag Joyce but you never suggest any concrete alternate strategy or plan, just repeat ad-nausem vague notions about "leadership" & "respect"


I have a suggestion or plan.

Let my left arse cheek run QANTAS.

It certainly has more of a strategy than the current CEO, Chairman and board combined. It also has the benefit of assisting the belting out of a fine trombone impersonation after a good curry.

[jack diamond]

Totally agree with Flying Boat :D:D:D

[framer]

By ginkgoes if this wasn't serious for thousands of people it would be funny.
The truth lies somewhere in between......as it usually does.
The boards strategy is flawed yet they persist due to a combination of the ' sunk cost fallacy' and basic ' conformation bias'.
The employees have terms and conditions that can no longer be supported because of the boards failed strategy. So what is to be done?

1/ The board must change strategy or be changed themselves
2/ The employees must become more efficient while the company digs it's way out of the hole.

It's real simple when the emotion is removed.

[Offchocks]

framer

Not so simple.
1/ Board won't change, they are all mates thinking they are doing a great job!
2/ Company is not really interested in efficiencies.

[Flyboat North]

TB: You are exhibiting the classic signs of bullet point number one, delusional believes about self-importance, the taunting that I was rejected by QF, big noting yourself about how hard it is to join QF. Really just the mantra ,we are elite , we are special , we are icons - and as special pilots we deserve special dollars, and special deals.

As I said in an earlier post the delusion of QF pilots and their own importance is exhibited by the fact the have gatecrashed the Anzac Day parade, because they did charter flights to Saigon !

The T & Cs of QF pilots , FAs, Tradesmen are so far beyond the mark, the best airline managers in the world couldn't help you now.

The pay of QF pilots is everyone's business, because you guys attempted to fleabag the Govt for a few billion of taxpayer dollars, to prop up your failing business. And no doubt will attempt another parasitic raid on the Australian taxpayer funds.

It is no secret that QF LH has been the party boy fleet for the 2000s, will a well entrenched bludger culture and a real aversion to doing any work. For a few years the 330 crews were doing very little flying, as the A/C were handed over to Jetstar. Then the A380 boys as a small fleet, and especially while there was a lot of training going on pretty much did jack sh*t for a few years and still picked up the big $$. Extra long layovers (twice other airlines) , double the cash allowance of other airlines, taking an SO always - even on four hour sectors , pattern protection , many guys maxing out sick leave.

Really did you think it was going to last forever ? , did you really believe that ?

Did you really think that it could continue ? The fact that a Jestar FO who works O/T to almost max hours just makes over $200K whereas his QF counterpart exceeds $300K for significantly less hours.

Why would they offer a generous voluntary redundancy ? Firstly they can't afford one, and secondly they will just move to CR anyway where they can really zero in on some of the problem children.

[The Pirate]

Flyboat North you are spot on! Well said, and I am a recently retired Qantas pilot.

Jack

[V-Jet]

FN: you really seem extremely angry for someone without any skin in this game. FWIW the Pilots and Engineers union have been briefing Canberra on the unfolding disaster that has been QF for the last 10 ish years. That is how seriously 'we' take the future of 'our' airline.

This is tremendously sad. No-one at QF who has been there for any length of time has anything but total mistrust for anything emanating from the ridiculous 'Sydney Campus'

I doubt anyone wants any Govt money to go to QF while this management is in place, because there is absolutely no doubt it will be squandered in exactly the same way as all the other cash these fools have wasted.

The greed and incompetence at the top knows no bounds - they have both in equal measure.

No-one will give an inch when it has been proved time and again that giving an inch means the people who caused the problems will take ten and shout from the rooftops how brilliant they have 'managed' the situation.

No one reading this would be anything but deeply offended with your suggestion that we tried to 'fleabag the govt for a few billion' when it has been staff who have been warning of this disaster for nigh on ten years.

Your aggression needs to be directed at the root problem and that is anyone above operational level - they have none, and I mean absolutely none of the abilities needed to operate anything more complicated than a mouse trap, and certainly nothing approaching even a school tuck shop. And that opinion is not just mine, but every staff member with any understanding of the business, retired ground staff, retired Engineers, Pilots and Managers. It sickens everyone who has ever cared about Qantas.

[noip]

InsectDingy,

Out of curiosity I had a peek at your ranting. Are you sure everything is OK in your life? Some friends of mine, since you seem to reside in Melbourne, can supply the phone numbers of two very dedicated and experienced psychologists.

Either you are a very insecure and troubled individual or an amazingly odious character who delights in inflicting pain on already stressed people. I can only support the plea to the Moderators to relegate you to a private sandbox.


To Guys/Gals who are worried .... please .. please call a PAN person.

You know the rest.


N

[framer]

Off chocks. I maintain that it is that simple but it has to be done.

[Capt Fathom]

Do the staff actually have any say in their pay and conditions these days, apart from saying "I'm out of here!"

[Mstr Caution]

Flyboat North.

I once itemised the inefficiencies I personally observed over a calendar month regarding the direct operating costs of operating my aircraft and associated extra costs.

Engineering, catering, pax accommodation, excess fuel useage incurred. Etc etc etc.

A classic example was that catering was so late on a delayed Perth-Sydney service the aircraft was operated at low level warp factor 9 to beat curfew in Sydney.

The dollar cost of wastage, delays, flight cancellations and inefficiencies far exceeded my after tax income for the entire month. And that's a fact.

Pilots wages don't impact on the bottom line. The way executives and AJ choose to run the airline has far greater impact.

It's just easier to blame the current financial position of the airline on employees.

MC.

[Hempy]

So Flying Boat what aircraft do you fly? Get a knock back from the big Q all those years ago? Stuck as a junior F/O and the music has stopped?.

You give FBN way, way too much credit. You see, if you read his posts on other threads FBN doesn't actually fly anything. Not a 0.1. He sits on a shiny chair in an office somewhere, and in his spare time he comes on here to spew vitriol in order to illicit a response. This fuels his deluded sense of importance...someone is paying attention to him.

Do not give him any attention, he is a classic Walt.

[Ollie Onion]

Mstr Caution,

I am not sure if that is the case, I remember a great article in the Financial Times (2010ish) about airlines, it had a graphic which broke down average operating costs into a seat plan for a 100 seat jet. By far the biggest proportion of cost was fuel at 28 seats (I would post the graphic but that is beyond my tech skill). The next most significant cost was staff wages at 20 seats. It then continued with various other costs and the net result was that the profit amounted to ONE seat. As we all know the airline business is a foolhardy one, the amount of return on what are normally huge revenues are miniscule. Obviously this was completed as an exercise in 'averages' but if anything I would think Qantas would be not as 'lean' as some average airlines.

I know that Pilot wages only make up a percentage of the '20' seats but to say that pilot wages have no impact on the bottom line is probably a bit disingenuous. If you could just reduce staff costs by 5% then you can effectively double your profit. By far the easiest way to reduce your staff costs would be to tackle the groups that get paid the most, in Qantas this is likely to be MANAGEMENT, PILOTS, some engineers and perhaps some very senior crew.

As with a lot of modern day businesses Qantas seems to suffer from a bit of the upside down pyramid syndrome, way to top heavy with managers at the top and way to thin on the ground with operational staff. Most, if not all of these cost cutting measures could be achieved without touching operational staff like pilots, but at the end of the day we are easy targets because most, if not all of the rest of the staff see us as massively overpaid for what we do. What the company is not taking into account is that pilots should be treated as any other valuable asset would whether it be property or equipment, you should hold on to these as to sell them is putting in jeopardy your ability to operate in the future.

[27/09]

The Pirate:
Flyboat North you are spot on! Well said, and I am a recently retired Qantas pilot.

Jack

Is that recently retired Qantas or Jetstar? You could be FBN's Dad by reading some of your posts on other threads.

[Hempy]

Flyboat North you are spot on! Well said, and I am a recently retired Qantas pilot.

Jack

Is that recently retired Qantas or Jetstar? You could be FBN's Dad by reading some of your posts on other threads.

I reckon if the Mods did an IP comparison you'd find they are posted from the same address..


-------------------------------------------------

Not so. Not even the same State or same ISP.

Tail Wheel

[Mstr Caution]

Ollie.

To clarify my post.

I agree. Pilot wages are a factor on running an airline. I think from memory it makes up around 3% of the operating costs of running an airline.

What I was attempting to point out to FBN. Was that I kept a record of all the wastage and inefficiencies I observed over a month.

Aircraft late tow from the hangar, extra fuel to go fast.

Waiting for connecting cabin crew, extra fuel to fast.

Late catering, extra fuel to go fast.

Delayed service due engineering delay, extra fuel to go fast.

Rostering issues and approaching duty limits, extra fuel to go fast.

Unhappy J class passengers given dinner vouchers for two at top class restaurant, extra expense.

Delays due no cabin crew, international connectors requiring overnight accommodation at extra expense.

What I was saying that the impact of decisions as to how executives choose to run the airline leading to additional costs. Outweighed my after tax income for the entire month.

MC.

[Ollie Onion]

Agreed, the amount of wastage makes your head spin sometimes.

[Flyboat North]

Sure those things matter, and likely the more aggressive you are with your scheduling , the more delays of one kind or another are going to impact.

But how can you say pilot costs have no impact on the bottom line ?

If on average the pilots at QF are overpaid $100k each , well that is a $200 million liability on your bottom line.

If you have 400 more pilots than you need , that is probably an excess of cost of another 70/80 million.

Well I have to go now because I'm going out to drink some wine with a very pretty young lady.

[donpizmeov]

Hope she charges by the 15min, would hate to think she was over paid like those pesky pilots.


The Don

[The Pirate]

I could be FBN's Dad, I have lived a full life. Qantas resigned, now retired. But I have been around the block a couple of times including in and out of management and I still agree with FBN, whether he be my son or not. But we are not the same person.

It proves his point that some of you out there think that there is something wrong with anyone that does not agree with your views. That indicates inflated self importance.

Many, many pilots and other staff have been through what is happening in QF at the moment in the last 30 years. One thing we all agree on is, generally, airline management sucks, specifically, Qantas' is no better and sometimes worse.

The thing we should be asking ourselves is:- why is it so?

[Derfred]

Originally posted by Flyboat North 23rd August 2013
Hold a CPL and wish to complete MECIR which flying schools in Melbourne area currently have this approval, my understanding is that Oxford and TVSA currently are signed off. Does anyone know the mechanisms/rules of doing training under VET in terms of could you do it part time etc ? Any other schools got the tick in the box yet ? Thanks and feel free to PM

[Capt Groper]

OK an Adult Airline in decline, it's a well documented process in the evaluation of a well established airline, it falls by the weight of over management,, so join an airline that has a potential of growth, 6 yrs to command plus long term financial growth.
Sorry but this is the way forwarded if you a pilot.
I've been looking at this situation evolving since the low cost airlines came on the scene. It's just the progress of the big financial world of which we as pilots are just pawns .

[tail wheel]

Certain posts in this thread have been deleted solely because they contain words or comment that are contrary to the PPRuNe rules, or are irrelevant to the thread topic.

A number of posts have been reported to the Mods, however the reported user will not be removed from this thread simply because he/she holds an opposing view to the majority.

It is not my position to determine who may be correct or not, however there is probably elements of truth on both sides of the argument?

Debate the issues, not the man.

And to the "contentious poster", the topic is "300 Qantas pilots to get the chop ???" which suggests to me the airline may have made their decision to terminate pilots due to being excessive to the airline's requirements (as it continues to withdraw from international and domestic air routes), rather than any decision related to your alleged excessive crewing costs?

[Me Myself]

All I can say is : Wowwwww !

I started this thread after reading an article mentioning this 300 pilots figure.
I read a couple of answers thinking this thread would die pretty quickly.
Never did I think it would reach such proportions.

I have to thank you all, as it was all out pure personal interest. See...I work for an airline that is slowly meeting the same fate in a european country that despite its well known arrogance.....is going down the drain...even going as low as making an extreme right party the winner of the day. It shouldn't be too difficult to peg us !

So, having said that, word has it we too are 300 pilots over bloated and of course reading this Qantas figure raised my interest. We are facing the same headaches as to how this will / can be done. Unlike Australia, our super account only gives us a right to a pension. This pension will however, be paid by the working generation......the very one to see its number decline.
So, not only do we face the agony of a declining airline, but our pension fund will also take a hit until it bites the dust leaving retirees with a fig leaf.

I have read all the bickering about salaries and let me tell you, this kind of discussion happens everywhere.
Fact is, people follow their wallet and give bugger all about the name on the tail, or not that much anyway.
The price has to be right, the product up to par with EK and the likes.
Somehow, our neighbours from across the Rhine with their very respectable airline, do not seem to go through the same aonies as we are and I may risk the crazy idea that this might have to do with management.

When I lurk on the EK forums, I see a lot of complaining about working conditions, crazy rosters, people leaving. I recently flew with a F/O whose mate flies for the other big player in the sandpit. He clocked 110 hours a month.....actually on sick leave which might have a lot to do with his roster.
Boys and girls, I am afraid that this is going to be the trend in the future and wish you ......and myself the best of luck for the future.

[c173]

I completely back QF pilots and I know what I'm about to ask is taking it to another sad level but....

Why doesn't a QF long haul pilot from here post up a copy (blur the personal details obviously) of their payslip? It will put all the haters to bed and maybe the media on side?

Just a thought!:O

[Mstr Caution]

C173 - Why don't we get Alan Joyce to put a copy of his years end annual complete package on here too.

It might put to bed the statement that AJ's hourly rate is less than a QF Captain.

MC

[Keg]

My base pay as a 767 captain was posted previously. Add 2 hours of overtime and 27.5 hours of sims and EPs and there's your answer C173.

[benjam]

The QF pilots should be what Australian pilots aspire to

Now THAT is funny!

[KittyKatKaper]

According to http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/corporateGovernance/ExecRemuneration2013.pdf for 2013 AJ got AUD 3.331 million

At 24 hours per day that is $380/hour for AJ.

[Snakecharma]

C173 I think it would be counterproductive to post salary details here as anyone who earns more than 50k a year is perceived to be a filthy rich pig who contributes nothing to the nation.

A myth happily promoted by Labour and seemingly the coalition these days.

I believe that airline pilots are reasonably compensated but are not over paid by any stretch and given that it takes an awful lot of work to get the position and doesn't take much to lose it (and CASA medical are making it easier to lose your medical) a reasonable salary is needed to compensate for the risk. Note: pilots working for anyone other than the major airlines are paid rubbish wages.

I am comfortable, live in a nice house (but not a flashy McMansion) drive one car that is new and another that is 7 years old. My kids are being educated in a middle of the road private school - again not the top of the line prestigious school, but not a crappy one either.

The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe we, as a group, can win the "but our salaries are not the problem" argument in the court of popular opinion, regardless of the truth of the matter.

We can easily be depicted as elitist, over paid and underworked because we don't seem to work all that often (seem is the key word here), we mostly wear uniforms that make us look important(ish) and the mythology is we are really well paid.

I don't know how the real facts can be brought to light - aeroplane leases on non flying aircraft, unproductive scheduling and rostering practices, operational decisions by operations and crewing departments that cost tens of thousands and do so on a daily basis. These are the things that make the difference between profit and loss, yet they are difficult to prove and even harder to explain to the great unwashed.

Sorry, I am rambling, but I just don't see how we can win over the public

[noip]

Snakecharma,

You are not rambling .. but one of the more sensible posts.

Thankyou.

N

[c173]

snakechamer, I can definitely see how it would be very counter-productive, just seems like one of the things we as pilots can use to take a little bit of fuel out of their fire. But yes doubtful we will ever win that battle.

Maybe I should post the media my GA payslip.......:}

[blow.n.gasket]

So we have Joyce on what? $5 million/ year
That's what ? Some $416,600 / month.
That's close to $96,100 a week
Or some $13,700 a day
Jesus wept!

[KABOY]

The reality is that JQ was born due to QF's higher costs.....higher costs on everything from baggage handlers to pilot salaries. QF transferred part of their business to a lower cost business (I know..I know..QF was subsidising, but their costs were lower).

We can all justify salaries on a global scale and say that they are reasonable, but in reality there is an JQA330/A320 operating on a route that was once the domain of QF aircraft.

The problem started 14 years ago when JQ was born and every QF union from AIPA to the TWU did not actively participate in negotiations for a greenfield operation.

The death knell was sounded and today we lay witness to the seed that was planted.

[What The]

The problem started 14 years ago when JQ was born and every QF union from AIPA to the TWU did not actively participate in negotiations for a greenfield operation.

That is not true. Some impulsive pilots knew better than everyone else and did a deal behind everyone's backs. Some of those involved moved into management. The results are there for all to see. AIPA actually got them more money via a retention bonus.

[Hempy]

QF transferred part of their business to a lower cost business (I know..I know..QF was subsidising, but their costs were lower).

And herein lie the issue. Jetstar IS a low cost business. They charge lower ticket prices for their services because they provide a lower quality service. So now it seems AJ wants a low service, low cost airline (J*), and a premium service, low cost airline (QF). Surely this is trying to have cake and eat it too?

[Chocks Away]

Sorry KABOY but I've got to correct the ledger here.
Pornstar was started to cut-off a new LCC starting, called Spirit Airlines. (http://internetmor50.********.com.au/2012/03/fed-no-frills-no-problem-for-new.html)
They actually raced together their concept & Media conference and released it all, at Avalon (!) the day before Spirit (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/print.main?id=65192) was to have theirs at Avalon! (Co-incidence? Linfox leases the Airport)

Just a little side note sorry but "Play-on is the call" :ok:

[Metro man]

Note: pilots working for anyone other than the major airlines are paid rubbish wages.

Unfortunately, so true.

[V-Jet]

This isnt a totally ridiculous option for some to look at. The skill sets wouldnt be that dissimilar and the money is certainly a postive. FBN would be shocked that people can earn that much in any career, but it seems it is possible.

Young workers tell us what it?s really like working on super yachts overseas | News.com.au (http://mobile.news.com.au/finance/work/young-workers-tell-us-what-its-really-like-working-on-super-yachts-overseas/story-fnkgbb6w-1226933257409)

Anyone know what bizjet driving money is like?

Both would beat Goose's truck driving option.

[Mstr Caution]

In my opinion the future is much more grim for AJ than it is for his mainline pilots.

The problem AJ has are the mainline pilots are just so damn expensive to be made redundant (compulsory redundancy that is)

Even with the offer of a fast command and a potential lengthy career at JQ, the take up rate has been relatively low. Of the pilots that transferred to JQ, most so far have returned.

And the reason for the larger influx of MOU pilots post Oct 2011 was career contingency planning after AJ woke up & decided to shutdown the airline.

Mainline are creating an environment (intentionally) of uncertainty in the hope that another 105 pilots don't return from LOA over the next 12 months.

AJ, tell us why there are parked aircraft in Japan? What's that, you can't get pilots at the pay rate on offer! More fool you.

AJ's little experiment of dangling a carrot to the mainline group failed miserably.

LS even had to throw money at QF pilots to get them to transfer to JQ in the form of a company paid endorsement.

Fellas. The whole scenario now playing out in QF mainline is a manufactured event.

Anyone who believes the dribble that the current surplus is due to the retirement of aircraft has been played.

Yes, the aircraft are retiring. But they are going cause of a lack of investment in the mainline international product and the replacement of mainline services domestically by JQ.

I don't have the figures immediately available. But the forecast growth in the Asia Pacific over the next 20 years is huge. Pilots have got to fly these aircraft. And if the Qantas Group wants to participate in this growth. It's going to need pilots.

AJ needs pilots, it's just the amount he wants to pay them is what he's trying to engineer down to the lowest amount he can.

Make no mistake, he needs experienced pilots but he just doesn't want to pay them much.

And ouch, those zero to hero cadet schemes can keep the right hand seat warm for a while. But what about the Command time for the transfer to the left hand seat.

Sit on your hands fellas. AJ's in the hot seat. He's been saying he's going to turn the business around by 2016. Be patient and watch him fail at his current strategy of replacing premium services with low yielding fares.

As a sign of the confidence in AJ's strategy, the likes of Etihad, AIRNZ & Singapore airlines have slowly been continuing to increase their equity in Virgin.

The closer to 2016 it is, the more AJ will panic about the turnaround and as we all know. His tenure and the current strategy has failed miserably. Watch the current strategy implode.

What's Alan going to do? Shutdown mainline and gift what's left to Virgin domestically and every other premium international airline. Cause I'm sure as heck convinced no premium passenger is going to vote with their feet and fly JQ.

AJ wants to pay me less cause he's pulled out of profitable routes to Frankfurt, failed to reinvest in mainline with fuel efficient aircraft and followed the path of self destruction. Sorry Alan, I'm not taking a pay cut to pay for your parked aircraft in Japan & Europe.

AJ, I say I'll see your hand and raise you two fold. Cause I'll walk into another flying job next week, whereas the shareholders will kick your ar$3 out of your CEO job if you fail to deliver on your 4 pillar strategy by 2016.

Rant over.

MC.

[Blueskymine]

Even with the offer of a fast command and a potential lengthy career at JQ, the take up rate has been relatively low. Of the pilots that transferred to JQ, most so far have returned.

That is not true.

One Qantas pilot has resigned from Jetstar to go to china southern. 3 have resigned from Qantas to stay at Jetstar. The rest have yet to play their cards. No SOs have gone back yet. I'd imagine they will take their command and resign from Qantas.

I'd expect a similar ratio with the rest of the MOU guys.

The simple truth is they're not going back.

The take up rate has been overwhelming hence the politics of the MOU. There is more qantas guys at Jetstar now than impulse pilots.

[Flyboat North]

Qantas Pilots Paid 50% more than their BA Counterparts

25 years BA 747 clearing $165K Aussie

25 years QF 747 clearing $240K Aussie

or QF Second Officer A380 clearing 72,000 British Pounds

So really here is a realistic comparison with how you rank with one of few legacy airlines left in the EU

Perhaps this is why your company cannot make money, flight crew wages likely around 500 million , if you can trim 200 million from that you are back in the black.

Yes Yes I know - flight crew wages have absolutely nothing to do with the mess Qantas is in & putting a couple of pilots on the board is the panacea

[hotnhigh]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Shortly Alan and Leigh will unveil a billion dollar loss. Engineered or not, its a ridiculous situation where they will operate as the worse politicians under the sun to remain in tenure.
They have already caused enormous angst to thousands for their management skills, delivering many to the queues of centrelink.
The armchair MBA experts that provide such insights on these forums neglect the evidence from the people who work on the front line and have been arking up about what is going on for a very long time.
The conservative nature of most of these dedicated employees is being abused by Leigh and Alan in their right wing ideological fight. All for what?
There is not one metric that anyone can point to that indicates that Jetstar has been the resounding success, be it yield or profit. At the end of the day, that's what counts. BS line in the sand methodologies, NPS, executive bonus schemes, wrong aircraft, the reduction and downgrading of qantas aircraft standards on all routes is what is ultimately going to kill the lot. Including Jetstar. Unfortunately its only the front line staff that have the ability to see what is occurring.
I don't hold Master Cautions optimism. These people will say and do whatever it takes to remain on the their exorbitant wages, until the end.
Can someone please indicate why Lyell and Simon are still in place? I'm scratching my head to work out what exactly they may do or add to the business.

[Mstr Caution]

Blueskymine.

I'd call one QF guy moving on and another 3 staying to date as a pretty low take up rate of over 2000 Qantas pilots.

The current uncertainty (manufactured) of course may lead to more staying and they would hold relatively junior seniority at mainline.

[planedriver]

Sit on your hands fellas. AJ's in the hot seat. He's been saying he's going to turn the business around by 2016. Be patient and watch him fail at his current strategy of replacing premium services with low yielding fares.

The only problem I see with this is if AJ is still in charge for another 2 years, QF will not exist.

2 bill in the bank, losing the best part of a bill a year with zero signs of improvement and zero strategy= very little in the kitty for any new management to try salvage the wreck.

Things have to change very soon or the lights may go out.

Hearing things like 'on the brink' from those up the tree isn't a great sign.

[hotnhigh]

Fly Boat,
If every pilot and engineer worked for free, qantas would still be at a loss.:ugh:
How's that strategy going?

[Mstr Caution]

Hotnhigh.

Perhaps my optimism is unfounded. Time will tell.

But what I do think is. Unless AJ turns the titanic around, the whole house of cards collapses.

Bit like deciding whether to amputate a gangrenous limb on not. However, at the moment which limb is affected is hard to ascertain due poor diagnoses.

MC

[Flyboat North]

HotnHigh

Not that is not the case you don't have to work for free.

All you have to do is reduce your wages by between 30 to 50% , this will bring you to the wage levels of your competitors, that truly reflect the market rate for the appropriate skill set.

If it is good enough for a BA 747 Capt to clear $165,000 then how can it be justifiable for a QF Capt to clear $240,000 some 50% over and above your BA counterpart.

BA took the hard medicine some years back , strangely enough it was an Irish CEO who like Mr Joyce also attended Trinity College who turned the business around. Do you really want me to post what your Air Canada counterparts get paid - you wages are at least 70% higher. And yes again they to in the 2000s had a restructure where T/Cs had to be transitioned from "iconic" levels to plain simple reality.

What is wrong with an A380 Capt being paid at the very top scale $300K, on a worldwide comparison of say the G20 , really very good coin for the job of being a pilot.

Really there is an easy $200 million saving from flight crew wages.

Larger savings could be made from your Aircraft tradesman, who have a fondness for calling themselves "Engineers" (sans degree), to many , paid way to much for people who have a TAFE level trade qualification. Often the "engineers" are pushing out $120K to 160K , 38 hour week for a tradie , who in many cases has a year 10 education.

Easy 400 million saving on maintenance wages.

Simple equation, do it or like Ansett you will perish.

[Mstr Caution]

Planedriver.

I reckon Alan will be gone before the airline goes.

I can not understand why he still has the institutional shareholders support.

At some stage they have to ask themselves, do they risk loosing the lot on the current management team and strategy.

[cynphil]

FlyboatNorth, once again you are full of sh...t! On good authority you will find that BA LH Captains with 25 years service are on about 152,000 pounds with all the extras that translates into 275,000 AUD at the current market rates..pls do not post anymore crap on this forum and grow up!!:=

[Mstr Caution]

Flyboatnorth.

Like Ansett?

Where you aware they did do that? Reduce wages.

Ansett version II reduced wages considerably and operated one aircraft type and they still failed.

So the answer doesn't always exist in reduced wages.

Reduce wages or perish - say hi to Alan & Liv for us.

[Flyboat North]

cynpil , Your numbers are dead right mate

Our boys are on North of $400K , as I said at least 50% higher

The iconic QF second officers are biting at the heels of a BA 747 Capt in the wage stakes

[Stalins ugly Brother]

FBN,
How about some of these fat pig snout in the trough executives start leading by example and trimming their remuneration by about 30-50% in line with other airline executives! then we will talk.

Until then F#%k off!

[hotnhigh]

Flyboat North.
Ever seen how you ring bark a tree? You can slowly chop around until it dies a slow death.
That is what Alan has done. The economies of scale have been reduced to this point, where there are now massive inefficiencies because people aren't flying.
Never before has qantas posted such poor results when everyone was flying a far greater network that you have now.
And to make matters worse, he is accelerating the process in the domestic network. He will never learn.
Example, how many times are jetstar aircraft operated within ten minutes of a qantas aircraft?
Lets research that one.
Its destroying yield in both entities.
Back to international,Brand new 787s operating sectors less than half full. A great return on investment. Have you compared their salaries to the equivalent in Qantas, i.e. 330 rates. You may be surprised or be calling for large scale wage decreases in that organisation as well to support your arguments.
The business strategy is wrong. People have had a choice, and they are flooding away internationally and domestically because what Alan and the board are serving up has left a bitter taste in their mouths.
Yet they continue.

[Flyboat North]

Yes I have compared the Jetstar V Qantas pilots wages

At Jetstar an FO on the 330 who absolutely pushes for all overtime will sometimes crack $200K as compared to the QF FO less flying and with a little overtime reaching $300K

The QF guys on the 330 are miles in front of the Jetstar guys on every metric wages, rosters, always having an SO tagging along, allowances etc etc etc

And really on forums such as this the QF guys have sneered at and taunted the Jetstar guys for a decade - telling them they are on "sh*t money" etc etc

[nitpicker330]

Flyboat-----you are so full of crap you must be able to taste it by now?

As a CX Capt I earn roughly the same as my QF counterpart. According to my JQ mates on the 330 they earn similar as well. Tiger LCC Captains earn good coin now as well as do the 777 guys at Virgin.

QF ain't that far ahead anymore, yes a little ahead but not enough to bankrupt the Airline.

Now Alan earns a truckload more than my CEO, how's about we start from the very top then?

A little research and you would know that.

Now sod off Alan stop **** stirring just for the fun of it and take Livvy with you.:{

Oh, and try telling the passengers on QF 32 that the Captain and crew are paid too much...:D

[Flyboat North]

Wow I am just so intimidated by your personal abuse, it really
says a lot about where you are intellectually.

Nobody here can win this argument on the numbers and on the facts.

Fact One: BA 747 Captains clear $165K QF 747 Captains clear $240K
You are paid 50% more

Fact Two: Average QF 330 FO salaries are $300K , average Jetstar 330 FO
salaries are $200K
You are paid 50% more

We could go on and on stating verifiable data , airline after airline from the developed world , but what was that phrase "there is nobody as blind as those who refuse to see" (feel free to correct)

For you guys it is always "da management" "da management" and no "respect" , there is no "respect" - it gets repeated like bad re-runs of America's Hardest Prisons

[Stalins ugly Brother]

At Jetstar an FO on the 330 who absolutely pushes for all overtime will sometimes crack $200K as compared to the QF FO less flying and with a little overtime reaching $300K

I can guarantee that there is not 1 f/o in QF that has cracked 300k. Please provide evidence of your statement.
I can tell you right now your research is well off the mark and your already tattered integrity is now well and truly shattered. I also noticed you conveniently left out mentioning BAs pension fund when comparing salaries, if you are going to compare, compare whole packages, it just makes you look more incompetent.

I don't understand why low breeds like you jump on forums like this and sprout this BS when we at the coal face know exactly how much our other colleagues earn?

Your simply an idiot. Take your lack of integrity and go back to your dormitory and keep on dreaming of that Diploma of business management 101 and leave the discussion to the ones in the know. :ugh:

[Capt Fathom]

Flyboat. Why this obsession with Cadetships, Airlines and Salaries?

[planedriver]

Flyboat your facts are not facts. Fact

[rowdy trousers]

I suspect that old mate Timmy ( a.k.a. FBN) has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

[Tankengine]

I am a Captain on the 330, I only just crack $300K.:hmm:(all allowances included)
F/Os are on 65% of my pay rate so I cannot see how FBNs figures can be even close.:ugh:
Regarding BA figures, perhaps he doesn't know there is a difference between £ and $??;)


His "Facts" are not, in fact, anything like facts!:=

[Autobrakes4]

For goodness sakes guys.

A380 Capt $380+, F/O $270+, S/O 220+
A330 Capt $300+, F/O $200+, S/O 140+

It's basic maths when you multiply 160 hrs x Pay Rate X 6.5 bid periods (approx 40 hrs O'Time for S/O's on A380 per bid period, a bit less for Capt's and F/O's). Add on training stuff (sim's, EP's and the like) and allowances ($15K ish) and Super. This is how you get to the above figures.

Obviously some will earn more if they are senior enough to get the high overtime trips, and some will earn more if they chase extra flying.

737 Captains earn about $220K at the minimum, and if they work their backsides off $300K+

Flyboat, you have no idea.

[dragon man]

I'm a 747 Captain. Gross last year no allowances $331,000. So if you can show me a 330 FO earning $300,000 in Qantas il eat my hat. Admit your wrong then piss off.

[Flyboat North]

TE: So what you are suggesting is that an FO on the 330 is earning the same as an SO on the A380

I have one thing to say - "NO BALL"

Remember it was your own man Barry Jackson , who told a radio interviewer back in 2011 that A380 Capts were "only" averaging $415K pa

[waren9]

average Jetstar 330 FO salaries are $200K

fbn

my group cert says otherwise by some margin, and i've worked my share. you could prolly nudge it if you gave it a go, but average it aint.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Provide evidence of that quote from BJ or a link to it FBN?

If not, no integrity proven.

[Flyboat North]

yes Waren I know the number is a tad high , realistically the Jetstar 330 average would be $175K , to get to $200k would require a shed load of OT

Really only makes the differential higher, just take a look at the base wage data Jetstar 330 FO $120K (approx) Qantas 330 FO - $190K (approx)

So whether you are looking at base data , or average total it is really just ducks and drakes, whatever way you look at it the Qantas 330 guys earn 50% more.

Just like the Qantas 747 pilots earn 50% more than than BA 747

What btw is the overnight allowance for Jetstar pilots in Japan ?

[noip]

Tailwheel,

It is not about a difference of opinion.

FBN is just being immature, abusive and a troll.

Maybe in the decades to come he will reflect on his shortcomings .. maybe not, but in the meantime he needs to be given his own solo sandbox.

I am so happy he is on my ignore list.

N

[waren9]

i'm not arguing against your principle but if youre gonna throw numbers around they need to be there or thereabouts. i dont know what the japan allowances are but i believe the contract is a matter of public record.

and i've said this bit before…

i had the jq cp on the flightdeck once a couple years ago and qf wages come up. regarding the 330 operation he made the point that for the jq sched as it was then, they ran both contracts in parallel thru the computer and the qf come out about a third dearer.

he said it was mostly down to the myriad of conditions that went with them, not just the higher base pay.

something i think aipa have offered to come to the table about and got roundly told to f off.

[busdriver007]

Nowhere can it be seen that Barry Jackson made that comment....What is this guy smoking? A troll and typical of discussion these days. If I can do it cheaper I will get the job. What a ********! If pilot groups in Aus got together then Flyboat North would realise that Jetstar Captains are earning over $400K. I agree with noip because in ten years time old Flyboat North will look stupid(if not already). Remember the job you undercut today will be yours in 10 years time, think about it.:ugh:

[Ollie Onion]

To quote News.com.au from 2011, this was the statement:

"The highest paid captain of an A380 gets $536,000 - an increase of more than $40,000 on last year - and the average A380 captain's wage is only $415,000. AIPA president Captain Barry Jackson said Qantas pilots' pay was around the middle of international rates and far less than CEO Alan Joyce's $5 million pay packet."


The above quote was attributed to 'leaked' AIPA documents.

On the subject of AJ's CEO package I note with interest a financial times article that states:

"The American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organisations found CEOs in the Fortune 500 made an average 380 times the average worker’s pay in 2011"

So on this measure if AJ earns $5,000,000 then the average worker would earn around $13,500. There is a lot of talk on here that the Qantas CEO gets paid way to much, but it would seem on the world scale of CEO pay packets his is actually quite low in comparison to other big companies.

[Tankengine]

Ollie,
QF is not a US Fortune 500 company!

Compare him to other major Airline CEOs and he is very overpaid.
That is before you factor in that The Qantas group is losing money.:ugh:

[Keg]

So it's not necessarily Barry making those comments re pay. Barry WAS making the point that we're middle of the road. Someone's comprehension skills need work or there is some significant context missing.

[Ollie Onion]

Keg,

Correct, I remember at the time the AIPA documents were leaked in response to AJ's claims about him getting paid less per hour than a pilot. Barry Jackson was then interviewed on radio to confirm if these figures were true and he confirmed they were and are middle of the road.

Quite right about the CEO figures quoted above, it does refer to fortune 500 companies, the point I was trying to make is that time and time again people on this thread are complaining about how dare others comment on Qantas pilots pay whilst at the same time complaining about Joyce's pay. I am just saying that in the CEO stakes he is not the highest paid, and not the lowest...... you could say he is middle of the road :}

US Airways CEO $5,000,000 usd per year
United CEO $13,000,000 usd per year
IAG (BA) CEO 5,500,000 gpb per year.
Air NZ CEO $3,000,000 nzd per year

[V-Jet]

I have noted parallels with Enron over the last 10 years at QF. I thought I might share these from Forbes:

3/22/2002 @ 8:00AM
There are those who believe– Jeffrey Skilling Jeffrey Skilling is one–that Enron was a successful company brought down by a crisis of confidence in the market. Then there are those who think Enron appeared successful but actually hid its failures through dubious, even criminal, accounting tricks. In fact, Enron by most measures wasn’t particularly profitable–a fact obscured by its share price until late. But there was one area in which it succeeded like few others: executive compensation.

Between 1996 and 2000, the average chief executive salary and bonus increased by 24% to $1.72 million, according to a Forbes study of proxy reports. Total CEO compensation, including stock options and restricted stock grants, grew 166% to an average of $7.43 million. In the same period, corporate profits grew by 16%, and per capita income grew by 18%.

Enron was at the cutting edge of this trend. The stated goal of its board of directors was to pay executives in the 75th percentile of its peer group. In fact, it paid them vastly more and on a scale completely out of whack with the company’s financial results–even if its reported financial results are accepted as accurate.

And

Enron’s share price was climbing steadily prior to 2001. But Enron was systematically annihilating shareholder value, destroying more each year, says Solange Charas, who conducted the study. Enron’s profit picture was worsening, its debt growing and its margins were dwindling. Nevertheless, Enron executives were actually meeting many of the performance goals set by its board of directors. The problem was that the established goals ignored important measures of profitability, Charas says.

In its proxy statements, Enron’s board said, “The basic philosophy behind executive compensation is to reward executive performance that creates long-term shareholder value.” Most boards say much the same thing. In hindsight, the Enron executives didn’t create value in terms of the company share price. But what about along the way?

The Enron board said its “key performance criteria” included “funds flow, return on equity, debt reduction, earnings per share improvements and other relevant factors.” It claimed to have devised its pay package in consultation with Towers Perrin, a compensation consulting firm. A Towers-Perrin spokesman wouldn’t say what, if anything, it did for Enron, aside from providing it with an executive pay study.

By some of its self-styled benchmarks, Enron did well. Between 1996 and 2000, revenue increased to $100.8 billion from $13.3 billion. (For an analysis questioning Enron’s reported revenue, see “Enron The Incredible.”) Enron’s earnings per share grew to $1.22 from $1.12. The company never reduced debt. The bottom line did improve: Reported earnings climbed to $979 million from $584 million. (These numbers are prior to its restatement–information available to the board and shareholders at the time.)

As a percentage of invested capital, Enron’s earnings grew worse every year. In 1996, Enron earned a profit equaling 4.3% of its total assets–already sub-par. By 2000, it was earning 3%. In short, Enron was hoarding more and more assets, which it could do because its share price was rising and its credit was good. But it was doing less and less with the assets it had and furthermore using those assets to 'invest' in much lesser grade assets - in reality performing well below market averages.

“Enron executives were meeting their goals, but they were the wrong goals,” Charas says. If the idea was to create shareholder value, the board ignored important aspects of that value. The company excelled in revenue growth and share price growth, but there was no reality check provided by the balance sheet. It’s like paying a salesman a commission based on the volume of sales and letting him set the price of goods sold, using the company balance sheet to guarantee the price setting.


My bold..

Interesting articles are they not?

[Blueskymine]

Blueskymine.

I'd call one QF guy moving on and another 3 staying to date as a pretty low take up rate of over 2000 Qantas pilots.

The current uncertainty (manufactured) of course may lead to more staying and they would hold relatively junior seniority at mainline.

Every position advertised under the MOU except 1 was filled. There was a huge amount of interest especially considering the last 25 were base frozen in Darwin!

There were also Qantas guys who actually failed the interview process. Generally it was the sim that let them down. Go figure.

Of the 120+ Qantas pilots at Jetstar, only 3 have reached their 3 year LWOP expiry. 2 resigned from Qantas and stayed. 1 resigned from Jetstar and went to China Southern.

100% have not returned to Qantas. 66% have stayed and 33% have left Jetstar.

I personally think we will see similar percentiles across the board as we approach the end of the year with the remainder.

Funnily enough Jetstar must be pretty confident most will stay. They just canned every training captain and only have check captains now. The checkies are pretty busy. Too busy to train up another 100 captains and run the cyclic.

[leakyboats]

What The

That is not true. Some impulsive pilots knew better than everyone else and did a deal behind everyone's backs. Some of those involved moved into management. The results are there for all to see.

I agree, the results are indeed there for all to see – Qantas pilots falling over themselves for a chance to sign up to Jetstar conditions for a quick command. Every time commands have been advertised to Qantas there is an oversubscription of your colleagues for those positions.

There was only one FSO where there was an unfilled vacancy not taken up by a Qantas pilot. That was when the Jetstar PC stood up and put the brakes on with the Darwin base freeze, although your union (my ex union) had a major meltdown and cracked the s#%ts.

I note with irony that your location is Darwin. You’re not a Qantas group pilot who is / was recently Darwin based are you?


And the biggest load of crap ever

AIPA actually got them more money via a retention bonus.

Which retention bonus would that be? This sounds like typical AIPA propaganda. Claiming credit for something it has ZERO to do with.

[*Lancer*]

Blueskymine, there are 4. One has returned to Qantas as a Second Officer.

Leakyboats, the 25 base-frozen slots were oversubscribed although not all MOU applicants were eligible/suitable. I note with irony that a year ago you asked how far off 'J' numbers were from a QF A330 Command. To answer your question: a 2004 QF 'J' seniority number is senior enough to retain a A380 Second Officer position, for the time being.

The real issue is why one group should be positioned such that they feel the need to contractually 'fiddle' to gain advantage over another in the first place.

[Capt Fathom]

The thing I find most disturbing about this thread is a whole bunch of pilots are about to become unemployed.

And some here seem to think that is no big deal, and a golden opportunity to sink the boot in!

Most of those losing their jobs will find flying work elsewhere. But some will not be so fortunate. It will be career ending.

We all work to support our families, and have some fun doing it.

So maybe some of you arseoles out there should have a good look at yourselves!

[busdriver007]

All caused by a pilot union trying to gain some relevance......Both Virgin and Jetstar T&Cs are evidence of that!

[CaptCloudbuster]

100% have not returned to Qantas.

Every Mainline Qrewroom reader knows this statement is 100% wrong:}

[The Professor]

“An identified causal factor in the accident was the crew's commuting induced fatigue.”

All pilots in the US commute, highly paid ones and . . . . lowly paid ones. The most common commuters are the highly paid UPS and FDX pilots who have fatigue issues as a result. Pilots commute mainly because airlines these days re assign bases so frequently that pilots get tired of moving.

The Colgan crash did not occur as a result of income levels.

“Tell us what you really think!”

I think my posts pretty much take care of that. But as I sit here in the lounge at JFK admiring the leggy blond on the chair opposite I have time to kill, so here is what I think:

Qantas is a reasonable airline, with moderate service levels and a good safety record. It is a legacy carrier, which means it is trying to respond to new market problems using old answers. The business model is no longer in tune with the modern airline market and it is saddled with highly unionized high cost labor. It is not an agile business.

The first thing Qantas employees and in particular pilots, must ask themselves is: why am I being paid a premium, a premium, which I think has been clearly established in the last several pages of this forum. It appears from reading this thread that the vocal Qantas pilots belief is that a premium salary should be paid simply because they think the business can afford it. This is not how a business should be run and probably not how Qantas will be run in the future. It’s not how you buy a car or sell a house.

For most of its history Qantas has been sheltered from the true market and like most legacy carriers has operated with a lot less focus on labor cost than non legacy competitors. Indeed cockpit labor was not considered expensive when the company’s main focus was developing a worldwide jet service in an industry still finding its feet, especially considering that an alternative source of technical labor had not yet developed. There was nothing to benchmark the cost of technical staff against. But these things have changed, the technical skills to fly an airliner can be sourced more easily and Qantas is no longer operating within the bubble that Government ownership once provided.

Qantas is not alone. South African, Air Canada, Air New Zealand, Iberia, Olympic, Alitalia, Swissair, Sabena, Aerolineas, Aer Lingus . . . . The list goes on of national carriers that have struggled to adapt to a privatized, competitive world. Every Legacy carrier in the US has gone bankrupt. All of the above named carriers have either been renationalized or faced serious threats to their very existence and only survived following radical restructure and financial aid that mock the very market principles by which you are expecting to be paid.

Qantas has ridden a wave of luck for several decades. The first shot in the arm was the merging of Qantas with Australian Airlines and the debt restructure that resulted; the second was the collapse of Ansett. Both events permitted Qantas to delay any labor reforms that were becoming more important as each year passed.

Qantas has not been blessed with effective management for some time. The lack of focus on labor costs and the poor strategy behind setting up Jetstar HK are just two examples but important ones nonetheless.

Qantas, like most large businesses is a complex system. It is impossible to manage a complex system without significant waste of resources. It is very difficult to manage a complex system with a completely effective reporting structure. Companies such as Apple and Microsoft and Delta appear to be well-oiled machines when viewed from afar but inside are held together on a daily basis with spit and gum.

This inefficiency does not provide a justification for premium salaries, as some here have suggested. In fact quite the opposite.

Management salaries are another often bleated about subject amongst most employee groups, particularly yours. Ironically, market forces directly drive the CEO’s compensation: there is no CEO union to muddy the waters or inflate his conditions through job building. His salary is what the market supports and is not unreasonable considering the size of the business and the task at hand particularly in comparison with others in similar roles.

My comments here are not in any way intended to offend pilots or wider Qantas employees. Some posters here don’t like the argument I present and that is fair enough. Those rational folk will respond with rational answers, the others will use terms like “troll” or “management stooge” in failing to form a reasoned argument and this is a shame as the future of Qantas depends a lot more on you than on me.

Good luck to all Qantas staff.

[Shot Nancy]

Wow. Talk about enlightenment.
Add a few posters to my ignore list and this thread becomes logical.
Goodbye to Flyboat North, and The Professor.
Professional pilots only please.

[waren9]

you chose to type all that instead of talk to the blonde? :) gee, priorities!

[V-Jet]

Funnily enough Jetstar must be pretty confident most will stay.

Why they aren't offering VR to LWOP.

[What The]

Leakyboats,
You obviously weren't around at the time.
Ask Lester. He knows.

[Fool Sufferer]

"The Colgan crash did not occur as a result of income levels."

Straw man. It was never suggested income levels were the sole cause of the accident. What was stated was that commuting induced fatigue was a contributory factor. The high percentage of commuters at the Newark base, the base of the accident pilots, was a result of the high cost of living in that area, combined with the low wages company pilots received. As stated in the NTSB report.

Further reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/nyregion/14pilot.html?_r=0

[maggot]

re: colgan
it had a heap to do with pay - not taking needed sick leave since they couldn't afford to & "sleeping" on a couch in the crew room since they couldn't afford a hotel! :yuk:
pay attention professor :rolleyes:

[CaptCloudbuster]

I sit here in the lounge at JFK admiring the leggy blond on the chair opposite

So, did you get his number Prof?:}

[Al E. Vator]

For crying out loud what is wrong with the lot of us? Stupid selfish people.

Yes granted, Qantas pilots have been arrogant and yes it's just by luck they haven't been embroiled in the malaise that's enveloping the whole aviation industry but why oh why must fellow aviators like this Flyboat fellow insist on dragging everything to the lowest common denominator?

There is so much nonsense spread about this industry regarding salaries. I know for a fact that salary packages in Asia as Airbus and Boeing Captains top A$500,000 and the carriers that paid that money remain extremely profitable. It can be done.

In Australia we had the Ansett collapse and the people who started Jetstar wisely pitted some ex-Ansett pilots and others (for whom jets were perhaps hitherto a missed opportunity), against industry norms for salaries. Quite simply, they were prepared to fly these aircraft for low salaries and relished the chance to undermine their QF peers in the process. Qantas pilots collectively were sufficiently myopic and arrogant that they isolated the Trojan Horse that was JQ as some sort of inferior scum (let's not talk to them on the crew bus) and this appalling approach is inevitably biting them on the bum now.

So we are ourselves largely responsible for the predicament we are in now. Pilots undercut others for whatever reasons and those arrogantly perched at the 'top' (although not really the top by international standards) think they are sufficiently gifted or special that they are immune from reality. Those nearing 65 seem to think who cares - get what I can now (get compulsorily transferred to the QF 737 fleet and then go sick) and forget the consequences for the younger guys.

The net result is that we are deftly manipulated by those who seek to undercut our terms and conditions, principally to fatten their own wallets. We do their work for them. With peers (?) like Flyboat, who needs enemies? We are white-anted by our own for whatever self-serving logic seems all important at the time.

An unrealistic expectation of course, but we should all be fighting to sustain the QF terms and conditions at the very least, not undermining them at every opportunity. Whilst I'm not entirely convinced the vaunted pilot shortage will materialise to the degree forecast, now is the time to collectively encourage boosting industry conditions not undermining them.

[OneDotLow]

Qantas pilots collectively were sufficiently myopic and arrogant that they isolated the Trojan Horse that was JQ as some sort of inferior scum (let's not talk to them on the crew bus) and this appalling approach is inevitably biting them on the bum now.

I, and many of my colleagues, have consistently made an effort to extract a "hello" out of JQ crew in terminals for years. That they look the other way in ~80% of cases has become a bit of a game now, so I hardly think that this is QF arrogance coming through. More like 'chip on the shoulder sheepishness' from the other side. For some reason, MEL seems to be the worst for this.

Still, I'll continue to say hi, exchanging courtesy to those who brave eye contact, and have a chuckle at those who choose to look the other way.

For some reason, the "QF/JQ/DJ/TT pilot" that people bitc# about on here seems to be a totally different person from the mate that they have known for years who works there. We really are not all that different.

[Trevor the lover]

Shot Nancy


Jesus mate, someone (ie The Professor) makes an articulate and well presented case, which serves the purpose of provoking some rational thought from the other side of the fence, and just because it is not what you want to hear, you deflect it away like a blowie and add insult.


I can see your strategy mate is to bury your head in the sand and only bring it up to drink heavily. You certainly don't bring it up to add anything constructive or alternative to the discussion.


Nicely constructed Professor.


Trev

[oicur12.again]

"Ansett version II reduced wages considerably and operated one aircraft type and they still failed."

Ahhhh, the Tesna bid failed for several reasons but operating cost was not one of them.

[Mstr Caution]

My point exactly.

The Ansett guys and girls were being paid less and it didn't stop the Tesna failure.

The Qantas guys could work for less now, but it wouldn't change the outcome of a failed group strategy.

MC

[*Lancer*]

Al E Vator, can you name one of those current contracts? After a fair bit of looking, Qantas is the only one I've found.

V Jet, LWOP pilots don't cost anything and are no longer on the RIN fleets. Unfortunate for some!

[V-Jet]

^^^ Exactly!

[amos2]

Elevator has said it all!

You will all rot in your own cess pits, you fools!

QED :=:=:=

[myshoutcaptain]

OneDotLow

For some reason, the "QF/JQ/DJ/TT pilot" that people bitc# about on here seems to be a totally different person from the mate that they have known for years who works there. We really are not all that different.

Exactly.

:ok::D

[toolish]

One Dot Low
Seriously you are kidding yourself.
I will lend you some silver bars and try that approach with some wearing gold bars and you may be surprised.
You will notice me in the terminal I will be the one looking you straight in the eyes and waiting for a response and 80% of the time nothing, I no longer initiate and yes it is a game for me as well.

[Oldmate]

Having worn both colour bars, I must side with onedotlow here. I know exactly which group are more likely to look away.

[OneDotLow]

toolish,

Well I guess I am in your 20% and likely you are mine as well. We can only speak from experience. I was going to ask if someone had worn both and what they thought, and old mate has chimed in.

You will notice me in the terminal I will be the one looking you straight in the eyes and waiting for a response

It is customary to add a verbal greeting when eyeballing someone. "Hello, g'day, hi...." Anything will do. :O

If it's any consolation, your two stripers seem happy enough to say g'day. They grow up so fast don't they... :ok:

You lot sound like absolute children....
Sad, but true... Envy / tall poppy syndrome runs deeper, the larger the ego. And we do have a lot of large egos in this game. Particularly when they can hide behind a username.

[maggot]

I always smile. Often snubbed.

damned if I can get a smile back from those cute hosties :\

[Keg]

I did have a giggle the other day when standing next in line at the x-ray- waiting for the passenger in front of me to go through the metal detector- only to have two Jetstar pilots put their stuff in front of mine for the X-ray, say 'excuse me', walk through the metal detector, pick up their stuff and then toddle off to the coffee shop. Their was two people behind me.

To both QF crew and JQ crew, if you're going to push to the front of the security line, don't then walk into the coffee shop and sit down for the next 20 minutes. Passengers notice that stuff.

[j3pipercub]

Are you wearing pants whilst smiling maggot :}

Guys, some perspective please, the 'he didn't smile at me and now I have sand in my v@gina' aint exactly constructive. 300 guys are about to be unemployed.

j3

[Mstr Caution]

I have yet to read anywhere that 300 pilots are about to be unemployed.

I've read that those interested in taking a VR may express their desire to do so.

But its voluntary.

If the company was intending to make people unemployed, they would have opened the VR offer to B744 SO's as well.

[j3pipercub]

I apologise, I'll get back in my box, just an observation that moaning about who says hi to who or who cuts in front of who at the security checkpoint is a bit average.

[toolish]

J3
That's gold.
Dont retreat a little perspective is good.
I probably should not have entered the thread myself I am just sick of how short some people's memory is.

[framer]

, the 'he didn't smile at me and now I have sand in my v@gina' aint exactly constructive.
Lmao that's the best chortle I've had all week :D

[maggot]

Are you wearing pants whilst smiling maggot

Details, details! They always get you on the details!

I agree, perspective is needed. I just flew with a guy right in the firing line, should it occur. It can be hard to look beyond our own noses when you're under the pump yourself.
Stick with it fellas

[theheadmaster]

If the company was intending to make people unemployed, they would have opened the VR offer to B744 SO's as well.

Not really. Think about it...

[AnQrKa]

"300 guys are about to be unemployed."

Maybe, but at least it will free them up to obtain more highly paid jobs . . . . apparently.

[V-Jet]

You are correct, I cant see any Qf driver not getting a job in aviation that they apply for, its just tragically sad its not the one they want, and already have.

S/O's might be a different story, even though they are F/O's in any other language.

[Vorsicht]

You are correct, I cant see any Qf driver not getting a job in aviation that they apply for......

There it is again. you guys are too funny!

S/O's might be a different story, even though they are F/O's in any other language.

And again, QF pilots are so innately talented that years in the backseat has so little impact on their skills that they are the equal of any FO from a lesser airline, which appears to be every other airline.

I'm out of popcorn, off to get a refill.

[theheadmaster]

I cant see any Qf driver not getting a job in aviation that they apply for

You must work for a different Qf than me. Sadly, there are pilots in Qf who I would not want running a local cake stall , let alone operating an aircraft with people in it. Like any organisation, Qf has some fantastic operators and some who managed to sneak past the recruitment process that are hopeless.

[Toruk Macto]

You are correct, I cant see any Qf driver not getting a job in aviation that they apply for, its just tragically sad its not the one they want, and already have.

Wind up surely ?

[Blueskymine]

Ha too funny!

He's actually serious. That's why Qantas crews are so loved by their peers around the world.

On induction day you are told you are the best. Problem is many believe it.

[nitpicker330]

Sounds like most Airlines then.......

Next..:ugh:

[Vorsicht]

Most of the QF guys I know are just good blokes and average pilots (as most of us are by definition) just getting on with their job, and fully appreciative of the good fortune they had to fit through the Qantas cookie cutter at time when a career at Qantas was sought after.

It's a damn shame the vocal minority on here seem to be the tossers that give the majority a bad name.

[framer]

You have to admit that if you're an ego driven tosser Pprune is a pretty good place to strut. Especially when your workmates won't play volleyball and shower with you after a long flight.

[maggot]

On induction day you are told you are the best.

They never told me that!

But it was a pretty good assumption :p:zzz:

Back to the beach volleyball then

;)

Im pretty sure v jet is just trying to be positive about his collegues, its good darts.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

On induction day you are told you are the best. Problem is many believe it.

We certainly weren't. All I remember being told is that it would be unacceptable to be caught rollerblading in a tank top through the foyers of any of the nice hotels we stayed at. (You think I'm making this up, but I'm not.)

Given that we were a roomful of crusty, unfit and distinctly unattractive 30- to 40-year olds, I don't think the gentleman concerned had much to be worried about, to be honest.

[Keg]

On induction day you are told you are the best. Problem is many believe it.

Not quite. On the first day of my cadetship I was told that there had been 6000 applicants for 22 positions and that we had what Qantas wanted to maintain their heritage. We were then told in no uncertain terms that this required hard work, dedication and commitment to ensure that we always continued to improve.

Still, I guess the follow up statement about working hard and staying focused isn't as sexy a sledge as supposedly being told we were the best.

On my first day in Qantas itself we we're read the riot act in a huge way and told that if we didn't work our backsides off they'd bin us in a heartbeat. There were reasons for this hard line that I won't go into here but a few of those reasons are no longer in Qantas. No mention then of being the best.

Again though, that doesn't fit the stereotype so tends to be glossed over by those who love chopping down the tall poppy.

[Lookleft]

The talk given to brand new cadets would be very different to the one given to pilots with previous experience. I think it also depended on which management pilot was available at the time as to what was said. When RM was 744 Fleet Manager he definitely stated to the 9 blokes in the room that "we were the best of the best, thats why we were now in Qantas". Thats not second hand info I was one of the 9.

We were fortunate that QF were recruiting ex-Ansett at the rate they were. Any QF pilot who is either VR or CR is not going to have the same opportunity for employment in Oz. If you are an FO then you are going to be in the que like everyone else and if you are an SO then V-Jet is just not telling you the real story. The reality is the most likely place to be employed in a permanent job is the ME and even then they still reject a lot of applicants who don't meet their HR standard let alone the technical standard.

[V-Jet]

You must work for a different Qf than me. Sadly, there are pilots in Qf who I would not want running a local cake stall , let alone operating an aircraft with people in it.

I didn't say I would want them running a cake stall (I wouldn't trust the CEO with that either) but there wouldn't be many Qf drivers who wouldn't get into airlines they applied for. Heaps of hours, current, qualified etc etc.

There aren't a lot of pilots I want to be in a car with either, but thats another matter:)

S/O's of course are generally none of those things - much harder for them.

And we were lectured severely about not screwing up this much or we wouldn't even get a job flying rubber doggie do out of HKG! We were most certainly NOT told we were the best - quite the reverse in fact. It was the most depressing day of my Qf career until the current debacle of financial mismanagement!!

[Vorsicht]

Now that was the best post for a while.

[Flyboat North]

Noticed Barry Jackson(former QF pilots union boss) wrote an article in the AFR today, trying to fleabag money for QF from the taxpayer yet again talking up a "Johny Foreigner" scare campaign.

He is only wanting a few billion in the form of an interest free loan, he actually thinks the public are behind this "concept"

Truly parasitic conduct the QF boys want go back on the public tit.

[Solomons Son]

Truly parasitic conduct the QF boys want go back on the public tit.

Just like Jetstar has sucked off the Qantas Tit....James Hogan has said he has $750 billion in a sovereign wealth fund and 100 years worth of oil. Where's the rationality behind this madness.

Top off the fact that Qantas is beset by a disastrous management team and a refusal to admit they are wrong and you have a looming "Ansett-type scenario" but twice as big!

Flyboat has a chip on all four shoulders!

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Noticed Barry Jackson(former QF pilots union boss) wrote an article in the AFR today, trying to fleabag money for QF from the taxpayer yet again talking up a "Johny Foreigner" scare campaign.

He is only wanting a few billion in the form of an interest free loan, he actually thinks the public are behind this "concept"

I've got the article in front of me, and it says no such thing. Why don't you actually read the bloody thing?:rolleyes:

[Flyboat North]

Well in my view that is exactly what he is saying, post the article, likely they will all agree with you no matter what.

He says some interesting things especially that the QF pilots are "mid range" on an international comparison.

Wasn't my reading of the data but its a free country we can disagree and still all be great mates. I think any objective evaluation of the data tells the story that you guys are just miles in front.

Your own man Barry Jackson said four years ago the average A380 captain was only earning $415K (AUD) , that is before the pay rise.

That is $20K Aussie a month clear think you are up 10% since the payrise, anyone got a link to the actual contract ?

Emirates is $12/13K Aussie a month clear , oh but you get a donga to stay in & we pay your power bill , but you will be flying 90 hours a month. Temps of 45 degrees for months it just sounds wonderful.

Who HooOOOO. What a deal mate !!!. Private school fees there are exorbitant and they are capped in terms of amount, no of kids. There are actually great high schools particularly the selective ones around Sydney (I went to one of them) , high schools in Perth regularly out gun the top private schools (Applecross , Rossmoyne HS etc etc) - don't cost a cracker.

Mega prices for schooling in lovely Dubai, just two /three in primary early middle school you will likely be paying $30 to $40 K over the Emirates allowance - there goes at least a quarter of your take home

South America & Africa - no contest there

The Sand- see data above , good coin for a bloke from a developing country

EU- BA 747 clearing 165,000AUD , QF 747 clearing $240K - so 50% up

Lufthansa & Air France/KLM very seniors might get near but lets have a closer look.

Luft: It is in Germany, and Germany is the strongest economy in Europe , and it has advanced manufacturing and other things like a pharmaceutical industry. Germany has more people than we do and Australia is not Germany

Air France/KLM : A financial basket case which the froggie Govt still owns 20% of , losses for years

China: The best you will do is $18K USD for 80 hours a month. The quote of $350USD pa is complete Bull as is the 42 days annual leave.

Just a few of the disadvantages might be.



20 days leave per year instead of 42
are you allowed to have a sick day in China, almost limitless paid sickies at Qantas
you will fly close to 900 hours per year, instead of Gentleman's 550 at Qantas
working for contract company , which could go belly up anytime
Chinese will change your contract when and how they feel
living working in a totalitarian , overcrowded polluted state
Few basing in Aus
Can get canned in a sim anytime , no rights of redress
astronaut standard medicals
chinese pilots smoking in cockpits
Can get canned anytime for any "cultural" slight that you were completely oblivious about
Contracts are only for 3 years , will the same $$$ be available after that
They will fling you as soon as they can, look at how quick SIA flung the expats

But likely the biggest one is that you are relying on Flight Crew Agency men telling you the big kind airline is paying all your Chinese tax, you can commute from home or be based at home and have to pay no tax to your Govt - sure thing !! I am so sure the ATO has given the Flight crew agency men a binding private ruling , so sure so sure. The Agency men are very knowledgeable to provide this advice and are complete experts on international tax law.

Let's discuss the US next week

The QF pilots are icons and are special and deserve to be paid 50% more than their other first world counterparts. Lefts give them a three billion dollars of tax payer money - we should organize a protest march.

I have to go now , I have a date

[CaptCloudbuster]

The following TED lecture explains the concept of Leadership in action.

This concept is precisely what all of us here who have the misfortune of working for the current crop of QF "management" have been banging on about.

The likes of Professor just don't get it....:ugh:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=em&v=lmyZMtPVodo

[amos2]

As some one who has spent 40 yrs as an airline pilot in Oz and is now retired, I gotta tell you I feel real sorry for you lot!
My 40 yrs was paradise but you blokes really hate each others guts don't you?
Wot a bunch of losers you are compared to my class of 1964!:sad::sad::sad:

[wishiwasupthere]

I have to go now , I have a date

What, with your right hand looking at airliners.net?

[Lookleft]

Amos I don't think anyone who was an Australian airline pilot in 89 should be preaching about how the class of 64 are now a band of brothers!You blokes took the level of hatred of other pilots to a whole new level where even the sons of your so-called Class of 64 were considered fair game. :mad: idiot

[SHRAGS]

Disgraceful thread drift!

[amos2]

You need some counseling LL! :sad:

[Normasars]

Is it any wonder that pilots are considered an easy target!!!

Brotherhood of pilots, and solidarity and all that stuff.

What a joke. You children only aid and abet the management division of labour.

And btw, the same usual suspects have been banging on about QFs issues for 10 years. If you hate it that much, piss off and improve your lot. Here's a reality check for you.

ITS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER. QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

I left the group 5 years ago. The best decision I ever made in my life.

[V-Jet]

Whispers from the bazaars suggest that QF's VR is to pay nothing more than lip service to the 'offer' in the full knowledge that no one will take it up, costing them nothing and progressing with all speed to CR.

Who'd a thunk it:)

[Jackneville]

I concur V-Jet, was told that by someone in Finance on Wednesday, it will be game on and not pretty.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Well in my view that is exactly what he is saying, post the article, likely they will all agree with you no matter what.

He says some interesting things especially that the QF pilots are "mid range" on an international comparison.

You must get a special copy of the AFR. In the one I'm looking at ('Qantas suffers from Australia's extremist "free skies" ', p.35), QF pilots don't get a single mention, mid-range or otherwise.

Here's the part where he mentions interest-free loans:


'What would the Australian government need to do to put Qantas on an even footing with the likes of Emirates, Etihad, and their scion, Virgin Australia?

Well, for a start, the government would have to buy up all the airports in Australia and allow Qantas to land free. It would have to stop Qantas paying any corporate tax. And it would have to allow the depreciation rates on aircraft to be chopped by around two-thirds.

And if the Governor-General could write Qantas a $3 billion interest-free loan - that would certainly help too.

Obviously this is nonsense.' (my bold)


So why is what you're claiming to have read so different, do you reckon, FBN? Or did you just read the bigger writing where it quoted the bit about the G-G?

[donpizmeov]

I do question the motivation of one of the posters here that bangs on about QF pilot pay. His comparison of a top QF Capts pay, including overtime and allowances, against a 1st year EK Capts basic salary would suggest just a lot of manipulation of the truth.
Perhaps if he had used the top EK scale his argument would not be as strong. EK basic salary + flying pay would be close to the QF numbers. Add housing allowance (if taken) and education allowance for kids and training allowance and he is way in front. CX top scale leaves the EK one way behind. So it would seem the QF numbers are in fact middle of the road.
I can only assume he has misrepresented the other figures he has quoted as well.


The Don

[V-Jet]

FBN
I really dislike giving bandwidth to the uneducated, but you are simply not factual and your statements of purported facts are really off.

I don't give a toss either way but wrong is wrong. It takes years to accurately learn the nuances of airline contracts and it is obvious you don't have the experience to comment. I can't be more polite than that.

What is interesting is the play QF is making and what can be done to mitigate the destruction that will be wrought from above. And make no mistake, it will be wrought, it is morally and should be legally wrong, but it is happening.

The idiots that run the place should be nailed up, but tragically the guys who caused the problem are not going to suffer in any way at all.

[Capt Fathom]

Why is this thread still running?

Just stop posting! Starve the troll. :E

[mohikan]

Which means the company is going to have a crack at CR out of seniority.

I have also heard that the cross training costs are so massive that the company will have to conduct training overseas if the WD was legally observed.

Along with the parlous state of the companies finances, this will form the basis of the argument at FWA.

Against this is the fact that the companies submission to arbitration didn't specifically ask for redundancy out of seniority order.

Things are about to get bloody.

[blueloo]

Which means the company is going to have a crack at CR out of seniority.

Chief Pilot Very adamant this is not the case. The Workplace determination would be followed. Now it may be a Tony Abbott promise, but I think he and the company (as he is representing the company) would be very exposed if the company goes against this and people have based their decision to take or not take VR.

Having said that I don't trust the company.

[flyingfrenchman]

You think the CP knows?!!

[oicur12.again]

“But likely the biggest one is that you are relying on Flight Crew Agency men telling you the big kind airline is paying all your Chinese tax”

Actually, the airline is covering your Chinese tax obligations. It’s a tax paid salary and so far after about 6 years the ATO are happy with it, as are the Canadian’s and EU.

The debate here overlooks something more important than how much the pilot is PAID and that is how much the pilots COSTS the company.

For arguments sake, if an EK and QF pilot take home the same money that is almost irrelevant as the QF pilot is costing Qantas much more to employ than the EK pilot.

Qantas are paying a much higher gross salary and have more inefficiency with consequential training costs when movement occurs and carry extra crew during down times as its too expensive to retrench pilots.

EK don’t have these costs.

[V-Jet]

CP's job in Qf is to make the unpalatable missives from above as 'nice' as possible. The position is chosen from 'yes-men' and not (from what I can see) the type a traditional CP should be.

In short, a CP at Qf who even looked like standing their ground would lose their executive car park faster than you could say 'Dubai'. Its a rubber stamp position, the conclusion is inescapable - otherwise, where are the resignations? Anecdotal evidence suggests the position was involved up to its neck in the shutdown so I wouldnt expect any support from there.

Employees seem to be the only ones who have to comply with WD, employers with big legals seem to be able to cry foul and call 'hardship' if they dont like any outcome....

[Australopithecus]

Oicur12.again...

Some of the costs to the company for any particular pilot are a result of the very high cost of living, and the high punitive tax rate applied to PAYE workers earnng pilot salaries.

The other costs-the training and the over-staffing, are the consequences of failed strategy. The airline has been carrying increasing numbers of surplus crew for at least five years yet failed until now to attempt to manage the situation.

As it stands right now the Qantas group has as many pilots surplus as they have hired in Jetstar since they knew of the problem (How could they not? The problem is Jetstar, and they caused it!). Because of one-eyed insistance that Qantas pilots not corrupt the Jetstar culture they were largely blocked from those jobs. So the problem, and the obvious solution, were created in-house, and the obvious ramifications ignored.

[Mstr Caution]

The current QF pilot surplus is a direct result of the "one airline two great brands" failed Joyce strategy.

The two entities are & never were one airline.

Of course it suited Joyce to piggyback QF's reputation of operational safety, but now there's a mainline pilot surplus the two are now separate airlines with their own pilot groups & management structure.

Keeping in mind the expansion of JQ is the root cause of the mainline surplus.

[Mstr Caution]

If the pilots VR is anything like other departments it will be a screw up.

A friend of mine in another department had a quote on a VR payment, then completed an EOI to leave the business via VR. His departure is binding but there was no agreed exit date.

He has organised another job to go to, however QF have not advised a departure date from the business and are now telling him they may not release him till late this year or early next year.

He is now in a position that he may loose the offer of employment at the other company & will need to resign without the VR if he wants to go. If the offer of employment is withdrawn because he can't start within a reasonable time, he still has the binding VR to exit QF.

Note to pilots, don't enter a binding VR if you need to exit the business at a fixed date, cause they will screw you around. Get an agreement on a fixed date exit if you need one before entering a binding agreement.

MC.

[Metro man]

For arguments sake, if an EK and QF pilot take home the same money that is almost irrelevant as the QF pilot is costing Qantas much more to employ than the EK pilot.

EK have higher additional costs such as housing, medical and school fees which they have to pay in order to attract the quality of employee they want. A premium must be offered to get people to live in the desert thousands of miles from home. EK pay free market rates for their pilots according to supply and demand.

QF are forced to pay above market rates by the union. There are plenty of suitable Aussie pilots flying overseas who would happily return home to fly for QF on 2/3 of the current pay scale, but they can't be employed as the union won't allow it.

If the EK pilots don't like what's on the table they can leave, however management will keep turnover to a reasonable level, recognising the value of quality employees to the company.

If the QF pilots don't like what's on offer they go on strike until one side backs down. Turnover used to negligible as it was a job for life.

Aer Lingus had some unbelievably highly paid senior pilots who had to be bought out as part of the companies restructuring. The travelling public wouldn't pay the necessary fares when they could fly cheaper on RYANAIR, or better on any other full service airline. The Irish government weren't going to subsidise things either so nature took its course.

[nitpicker330]

Another troll :D:mad:

[Metro man]

Not at all, just being realistic about the changing aviation landscape.

British Airways are now the only European Airline flying to Australia and now that Qatar Airways are in Oneworld it could prove cheaper to operate their high cost/low margin flights via a code share than using their own aircraft. BA pullout of Sydney and give the slots to Qatar, making more profit with a lower cost base partner doing the work.

Soon the kangaroo route will be Asian/Middle Eastern carriers only.

[V-Jet]

Soon the kangaroo route will be Asian/Middle Eastern carriers only.

Which has nothing to do with QF Crew pay rates and everything to do with the outstanding DCDLVIXXXII pillar plan from the genii at QF HQ.

Where's the arena when you need one??

[Fool Sufferer]

"If the QF pilots don't like what's on offer they go on strike until one side backs down."

Metro man, subsequent to the 1966 dispute, which I believe mainly revolved around the issue of seniority rather than pay, could you please specify the occasions when QF pilots have gone on strike.

[Metro man]

Management obviously preferred to pay rather than have a strike, as evidenced by the terms and conditions of the pilots.

Striking Emirates pilots would find themselves sacked and deported very quickly. They would soon be replaced. Emirates management pay enough to retain their pilots and keep turnover at a manageable level. None of their pilots expect to retire in Dubai and many have an exit plan for when one of their two buckets (s**t/money) fills up.

Should EK have difficulty in attracting the quality of applicant they want they will simply increase the package. They are profitable and can afford to.

[Keg]

Another clown for the ignore list. Life is so much better than with these tools who have no idea as to the IR reality between Qantas and it's pilots for the last 40 years. Ignorant, ill informed, ideological driven dills.

[Alloyboobtube]

Sadly Australian Pilot jobs are being off shored by stealth , the foreign airlines with slave labour are unbeatable in our environment and as they expand they have reduced the size of QF International.
Domestic is. A safer option until these mega carriers buy them and alter conditions.
Jetstar International was a half hearted attempt to compete with the foreign carriers , it also has no chance , the war is not internal it's outside.
Between the ME carriers and the emerging Chinese ones Australian Aviation may not exist in 30 years.
Not to mention if QF relaxes the foreign ownership cap and becomes majority foreign owned it will be open slather an a blood bath on the domestic routes until the most efficient airline wins.
Lots more hurdles in the future.

[Fool Sufferer]

Metro man you did not answer my question. You made the statement "If the QF pilots don't like what's on offer they go on strike until one side backs down."

I am simply curious as to on what occasions, post 1966, this group has done what you have stated. Please be specific.

[V-Jet]

I want an answer too, metrosexual man. My father was involved in that '66 strike and I remember it clearly (he worked as a labourer during the day and at the Post Office at night to make ends meet). Later, I was involved in what I believe was the next strike action by QF Pilots when I militantly made approved statements on a PA and wore a red tie. To be fair it was VERY (QF?) red, but again, even the non-fashion conscious tie was actually approved.

Answer please... My memory may well be incorrect.

For accuracy, I do need to add that AIPA also had approval for us to wear our (matching!) red armbands. It is probably fortunate that BGA had his epiphany and shut the entire airline down at an (admitted) cost of $200,000,000.00 rather than let the world witness the holocaust of industrial unrest that armbands would have wrought upon the world. It lives still (as I assume most of them do) unworn in my top drawer. I will save it to use as a last line of defence in case 'Ze Germans' invade. Things like armbands are powerful, and you can never be too careful!

[Metro man]

The threat of a strike is on the table during negotiations and that is enough. If you can get what you want by holding a gun to someones head there is no need to pull the trigger.

If the company knows that not agreeing to demands WILL result in strike action then the effect is the same.

QF pilots had the upper hand over the company where as EK management have the upper hand over their pilots.

Emirates are profitable, Qantas aren't. Emirates have competent management who have built a mega airline in less than thirty years. Kuwait Airways is a basket case despite enjoying many of the same advantages as Emirates, such as geography and labour laws.

E****d and Qatar have a bottomless pit of money to play with and can easily sustain losses until they have wiped out the competition, then the prices go up. Just like the big supermarket chains.

Qantas isn't the only basket case in the airline world, Malaysian Airlines are racking up massive losses due to overstaffing, inefficiency and corruption. The government can't/won't do anything because their own politicians have fingers in the till and any job losses would affect people who vote for them.

I'm simply stating the facts, no axe to grind.

[Australopithecus]

Metro Man..those are not facts, they are modern myth. Prior to Joyce's instantly conceived and executed lock-out, the pilots were in early negotiations with the company, and many improvements were in play. Instead, the lock-out took us a long way to our current trading losses, and he ended up with much less than he could have had for the asking.

QF made its record profit just prior to Joyce was appointed CEO. The dismal results since then speak for themselves. Hell, even the cook at my local noodle joint knows "Joyce very bad".

[Hempy]

The threat of a strike is on the table during negotiations and that is enough. If you can get what you want by holding a gun to someones head there is no need to pull the trigger.

The threat of strike action??? So by your definition, any industrial relations negotiations involve one side (management) cowering in the corner and the other side (employee representatives) waving big .45's around? Withdrawal of labour is any employees right if the situation decides. Just like pay freezes and reduction in working conditions are the employers.

There are two sides to any argument d1ckhead. Credibility zero.

[Fool Sufferer]

So Metro man, I take it you are not going to answer my question.

[Flying Spag Monster]

I suspect not, but you can't negotiate from a position of weakness. His point is at EK pilots have only supply and demand to improve their lot. They cannot negotiate at all as they have no leverage. QF and any other union supported pilot group have at least that.

[Snakecharma]

It is funny that some people think that EK or any other foreign carrier is an industrial nirvana.

Emirates don't retain people because they set their terms and conditions appropriately, they retain them because the alternatives are worse!

Don't get me wrong the money and conditions are OK, but no better than in Australia.

People don't stay in Emirates because they love the place, they are trapped with what can only be described as a 777 or 380 shaped straight jacket.

It isn't because they are rapturously happy as metroman seems to allude to, it isn't because of world leading T & C's, it is because in most instances seniority relegates anyone who leaves to junior FO status if they can get a gig in a "career" airline or they are stuck wandering the world as a contract pilot.

All the Middle East carriers (some worse than others) use the "beatings will continue until morale improves" theory and anyone who steps out of line very quickly has an attitude readjustment or a relocation (out of the Middle East).

I look on with amusement as some of the FO's I fly with describe how bad it is in my current airline and they look forward to getting a start with EK. Funny how most that have travelled that route last about 2-3 years (by which time the travel the world in my big wide body jet shine has worn off) and start seeing if they can come back into a command as they now have "international wide body experience"!

I wish the QF guys well, it seems to me that we are afflicted by the cheaper is better syndrome everywhere.

You can buy milk for about a dollar a litre retail, which means the dairy farmer gets naff all to produce it, same with veges and other staples, all because the "big 2" woollies and Coles are beating themselves to death trying to sell stuff cheaper to people who are not directly impacted by the lack of profitability caused by the cut throat pricing - pricing that is below the cost of production (sound familiar?)

Eventually the producers who funnily enough cannot sustain the losses associated with selling their product below the cost of production will up stumps and bugger off and we will be left with importing the product - be it veges from china, milk from NZ or airline seats from the Middle East or Asia.

We need a "way back" machine to go back and adjust the marketing that leads the great unwashed to believe that it is ok to pay $100 bucks for parking at the airport, but not ok to pay $100 bucks for the ticket they use to fly on the aeroplane worth nearly a $100 million dollars.

Sorry another long ramble - got to take the kids to school now!

[Metro man]

Exactly, an expat is paid according to supply and demand. Airlines don't pay anymore than they have to and only for as long as needed.

SQ recently terminated their expats, however their pilots have a strong union, unlike most other workers in Singapore. Apart from the odd quarter or two the company is profitable with large cash reserves.

Air India keeps getting government bailouts as does Malaysia Airlines. There are too many negative consequences for their governments if they go under.

What happens if the company is neither profitable nor government subsidised ?

If AJs request for a $3 billion dollar loan has been rejected and the company continues to lose money, what happens next ?

[hotnhigh]

Metroman, seeing you are unable to answer the questions asked of you, I shall have a stab at yours...If AJs request for a $3 billion dollar loan has been rejected and the company continues to lose money, what happens next ?
What should happen next is Alan, the chairman and the majority of the board should fall on their sword.
As has been intimated on these forums for a very long time, the Qantas strategy has been wrong for a very long time.
What you don't seem to grasp is the likes of Clifford and Joyce bully their way around employee relations, attempted to do so with government relations and treat the most important people, the paying customer, with sheer contempt.

There is no way Qantas should receive any government assistance for their failed strategy. They, (the qantas board) thought they could bully, threaten and ultimately beat their main domestic competitor by using their initial better fiscal position to sustain losses to kill virgin. Borgehtti out played them and was able to source funds to match qantas. For the first time, someone stood up to the arrogant bully... And look what happens, they back down. Because they have nothing when matched on equal terms. I acknowledge that virgin has also lost a truckload but it demonstrates the point of these bullies and what they will attempt to do.
As for employee relations, well enough said already. And as for the paying passenger....It is all about choice, and they are choosing. The answer to qantas' problems is not more jetstar.

A final question metroman. Why do qantas management continue to hang their hats on the Bain groups net promoter score as the be all and end all?
If everything is so great in net promoter score land, why are yields and profits so s#$%^house?
Answer: Net promoter score can be used to achieve executive bonus targets even with a reducing passenger number.

[Mstr Caution]

What's happened since AJ's $3b loan was passed over?

A. JQ Asia brakes applied on growth
B. Parked aircraft still observed in JQ Japan
C. Rumours of delayed 787 JQ deliveries
D. The not negotiable 65% line is the sand is withdrawn
E. An increasing amount of JQ widebodies observed parked in MEL & SYD when they should be flying.

Regardless of AJ and the boards fantastic contribution over the last few years & in no way a reflection of their outstanding performance. Its time for them to move on.

MC.

[Australopithecus]

Hotnhigh...

+1 on your net promoter score comments.

On my last trip the CSM spent :30 minutes of bus time debriefing the pervious day's net promoter scores, comments and such. It was very, very earnest. At the end she thanked the crew for helping her achieve her KPIs.

Brave new world where you need a number to detect if you were providing the acceptable customer service. Back in the old days we just tried to be genuine, helpful and friendly.

Here's a question for anyone: why do we need KPIs with a supervisor for every three staff? Can't they tell in real time if you aren't doing your job?

[maggot]

On my last trip the CSM spent :30 minutes of bus time debriefing the pervious day's net promoter scores, comments and such. It was very, very earnest. At the end she thanked the crew for helping her achieve her KPIs.


I hope the CSM held the bus on the kerb at the airport for this important brief. As is the current trend. No one really wants to get to the hotel in a hurry, after all :rolleyes:

[Australopithecus]

Uhhh no. That wouldn't be happening. Well, it did once, but we had an attitude calibration once they finally made their own way to the hotel.

[amos2]

...yes, once they realise that they have to wait an hour after the debrief/demo for the bus to arrive back at the airport they soon drop that nonsense! :ok:

[Falling Leaf]

Qantas versus Piloting excellence-the axe swings again | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/06/04/qantas-versus-piloting-excellence-the-axe-swings-again/)

Article mentions demotions for Captains and FOs...

[Keg]

Yep. That's been a given for about 8 months now. It might be new to those external to Qantas but those of us on the 767 have understood it was likely for 12-18 months and even more sure of it since about July last year.

[S.E.A.L.11]

The above was finger trouble on the app, sorry folks.

[Dogslay]

Original hotnhigh"'What you don't seem to grasp is the likes of Clifford and Joyce bully their way around employee relations, attempted to do so with government relations and treat the most important people, the paying customer, with sheer contempt.

Actually I find the flight attendants do this fairly well!!!

[Capt Kremin]

Reductions in Numbers.

50 747 Captains
50 747 F0's
All 767 Captains (74)
All 767 FO's (59)

Slots:- 12 A380 Captains MEL
10 A330 Captains Mel/Per
15 737 Captains ADL

2 A380 FO SYD
3 A330 FO Per
1 A330 FO SYD
15 B737 FO ADL
14 A380 SO MEL
8 A330 SO SYD

:(

[Falling Leaf]

So, aside from me stuffing up the maths (to be expected), that's a net loss of 87 Captains and 88 FO's...

[Keg]

Kremin, I think the redeployment slots are in addition to the training vacancies. Otherwise why advertise that they have 12 SYD A380 captain slots for redeployment?

So the way I read it, to your list we can add:
8 A380 Captains in MEL
12 A330 captains in SYD
8 A380 F/Os SYD
10 A330 F/Os SYD
20 A380 S/O MEL
14 A380 S/O SYD

Clear as mud?

Judging by that lot though it looks like I may not even get to the A380.

[ramius315]

Poor Keg: may not even get a gig as a 380 FO and the corresponding payrise.

Meanwhile pilots are in serious threat of being made CR (77 330 SO slots anyone?)

Qantas confirms up to 223 pilots to go by end of June (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-confirms-up-to-223-pilots-to-go-by-end-of-june-20140606-39nva.html)

:ugh:

[Australopithecus]

It must be on everyone's mind that anyone not affected on this particular RIN is whistling past the graveyard. I'll be astonished if there are more than 1500 total mainline pilots in a few years.

[OhSpareMe]

Problem with that Ballsdeep is that the VR on offer is not for everyone - only 744/767 Capt and FO.

[Flyboat North]

They should have got rid of at least 500 now, the A380 Pilots are lucky to crack 500 hours per year. Of the 2000 QF pilots there now , about 1250 are LH - how many LH Aircraft are there ??

Got to be one of the highest crew /aircraft ratios in the world.

Heard the wages bill for long haul pilots sitting on reserve was 100 million last year.

Not how they do it at SIA and Cathay & that would be one of the reasons they are in front of you.

[maggot]

Poor Keg: may not even get a gig as a 380 FO and the corresponding payrise.


not sure on the payrise, the junior 767 capts that may get on the 380 will be doing 10 dayers and won't see a pay rise.

[ballsdeep]

i see…… Maybe I take it back then….?

[Stalins ugly Brother]

ballsdeep
I hear there is over 200 pilots over 65 at QF. Shame on every one of you for not taking VR. What a bunch of selfish `s

Whilst I won't agree or disagree with your sentiment. Unfortunately most of these guys weren't eligible for the VR package that was on offer as they aren't on the fleets that it was offered to.

I'll go out on a limb here and state that this RIN process and all the training that it will cause will never happen. Once the numbers are sorted it will be rushed off to fair work by AJ claiming it will send the company broke and we will be left with training being assigned to the fleets that requires training numbers and redundancies off of fleets.

They are working to a timeline, hence only 2 weeks until bids close.

Watch this space.



I see FBN has put another very useful and helpful post on the forum. FBN, you keep quoting all these marvellous numbers but the fact is you never back them up with anything. That to me just says you are full of ****. Go away.

[noip]

Dear Mr Tiny Testicles,

I know you think this is great sport but it is not.
Your posts are completely wrong and cruel. Fcuk off.

There are a significant number of people who through no fault of their own are facing major problems, and you are just being ignorant.

Fcuk off and let some decent hard working people sort out their future.

Love

N

[Flyboat North]

At least 1300 Long Haul Pilots , 13 each of 747/767, 12 380s, & 22 330s

Remember that of the fleet of sixty WBs , 40% of the fleet do domestic only (all 767s, half 330s) before
someone starts babbling about the complexities of LH WB international flying and the reserves required.

Fairly high crewing ratio you might think.

Oh and how many hours are the A380 pilots flying per year, anyone got a raise on 550 hours ?

[mohikan]

Keg has been calling for a pay cut on this forum for A380 pilots. Didn't have the cohones to do it on Qrewroom under his real name of course...

FBN

The issue is that the flying program has been steadily shrinking in favour of JQ for years now, but the company has not progressively dealt with surpluses through a rolling VR program, more opportunities to go to other group airlines and through demotions ect

Not the fault of those employed. All of us are available for 1000 a year, as per the previous and current contract

[goodonyamate]

SUB

I'll go out on a limb here and state that this RIN process and all the training that it will cause will never happen. Once the numbers are sorted it will be rushed off to fair work by AJ claiming it will send the company broke and we will be left with training being assigned to the fleets that requires training numbers and redundancies off of fleets

I wouldn't say you were out on a limb. Its either that or with the 77 330 SO positions 'available', they are prepping for CR.

There is no way the Company will pay for all that training. And I don't believe that when the displacement clause was originally written that it was ever foreseen that we would have so many numbers being moved, or so many types of aircraft.

Its not going to be pretty. Look out for each other.