What type of flying do people do after their PPL?

[Falcons11]

Hi again,

I've been reflecting on the thread I started regarding airframe age. The replies were informative and thought provoking.

What I took out of it is that:

a) For training the quality of the instructor, school, weather and other factors play a more important role

b) Once you have your licence then you can think more about what you will be flying in

However something else struck me through this debate, I don't think I factored in the post PPL cost of the hobby.

I again turn to you to help shape my thoughts!

So I have a question for those of you who spend less than £7k/yr

In the course of a year how would you categorise your flying?

Once I have some replies I'll try and create a summary table as I don't think I can create a poll

Some ideas include:


Just keep current with the club, so 1hr/mth
Fly when I can say 1hr/ fortnight
Couple of hrs per month, occasionally with a fly away
Continuously training, IMC, night, etc
the occasional weekend away, otherwise limited flying
fly every week, including club flights
use flying as transport for long weekends away



I took £7k as that is less than 1hr/wk on a club aircraft
If you are not renting a wet aircraft please provide some indication for how your expense breaks down
Ideally I would also like to hear from those who spend less than £4k

[wb9999]

Wouldn't it be easier to say what you want to do post-PPL and then forumites can give feedback on if it is feasible?

It appears that many students (and even PPL holders) don't think about what they're going to do after qualifying. I've been there myself!

[Falcons11]

well I certainly like the idea of flying somewhere for lunch every now and then.
I think the idea of trips to France

Unless I am doing aerobatics, the 1hr flight thing only appeals if taking up friends, but not sure how expensive aero is.

I like the idea of flying somewhere in a group.

I don't like the idea of spending more than £3k/yr and would struggle to sustain £4k/yr
But, the way I see it you cannot really spend less than £2k/yr.

[wb9999]

Based on your other thread, you'll be looking to rent a modern 4 seater around the London area. You will be lucky to get 12 hours for £2k a year and maybe 15-18 hours a year for £3k - and that excludes extras such as membership fee, landing fees, medical, instructor flights for revalidation or if out of club currency.

You probably need to think about downsizing from a PA28/C172 if you're wanting to get more hours for £3k. Or look at buying a share in an LAA aircraft, but that would mean an initial outlay. Or move up north, where hourly rental can be 25% cheaper than London!

[SidT]

1 key word for me ... "variety" including:


Flying with other pilots
Flying different aircraft
Additional training (Night rating, IR(R), Aeros etc)

Of these flying with other pilots is, for me at least, key:


Extends your range and helps prevent you getting bored of seeing the same bit of land (the bit within 1 hour round-trip from your home airfield); If 2 go and you both want to fly/pay for an hour then you can go somewhere an hour away (yeah yeah.. winds dependent), if three then even better , 4 better still etc...
You will learn form each other (whatever the relative hour differences are).. we never stop learning and, hopefully, improving :)
You may go to places you've never thought of going that turn out to be amazing finds (or total flops.. but that can be just as fun)

Taking friends and family up and doing the "see my house" run is ok for a bit, but you may soon get bored flying over the same bit of land (mainly because you'll be limited to flying

The £100 burger run (fly to an airfield within 30 mins and back - for 1 hour rental) will be great initially but there is a limit to the number of airfields in that range (see above re extending range by flying with other pilots)



Flying to a different country (even just for lunch) is cool and feels more special (at least to me) but that may also get stale eventually.


Fly-outs and Fly-ins - get involved they can be fun!


Go places where you can actually do something other than stay at the airfield for lunch.


"variety" is key imho.


SidT

[500ft]

Different to what I expected

Firstly, contrary to others opinions I believe that getting a PPL and then never using it is not a waste of time or money. It’s a challenge you should enjoy in own right regardless of what happens afterwards.

Diclaimer – the following is my experience and may not reflect the experience of other pilots.

I expected you load up the plane with a bunch of passengers for weekends away. It turns out that was never going to work for me.
• It may only take an hour to fly to the destination but the drive to the airport and prepping the plane takes longer than you think.
• Don’t underestimate the time you spend getting airborne and landing
• A lot of people don’t actually like light planes (hard to believe I know). Some may be happy for a 45m scenic flight on a nice day. But turbulence on a cross country is different. I have seen my wife look really scared, it isn’t fun.
• Weather means you can’t be guaranteed to get anywhere so you can’t book accommodation or plan to fly to a wedding. Unless you live in the USA where flying is dirt cheap and the weather is perfect everyday or so I’m told.
• You need transport to and from the airport at your destination. Often I am more comfortable when I can keep an eye on the aircraft.
• Cost share passengers, the internet assures me they exist but I haven’t ever seen one.
• The keener some is to fly with you the heavier they are. And when you weigh 100kg you are already behind. That skinny vegan mate, too scared, your body-building BIL, he’s up for it. Let me do the Weight and Balance..hmm..

So what actually happened.

I do cross countries on average about once every 3 months, but I might do 1 a month for a couple months then none for a while. Often I may cancel because of the weather. I may be alone, or will friends who wants a ride, but it is more just about taking the plane for a fly than the destination. I find 2-2.5 hours of flying with a couple stops on the way is a whole day away from home for me.

I need to fly reasonably regularly to keep my flying mojo, so often I may be back in the circuit to refine my skills after a couple months away, as other things compete for my time. This is probably my greatest frustration when I feel my flying has degraded slightly. And recently it has become less about the money and more about time.

Although I have a PPL I think I am a student forever, even alone I am constantly coaching myself. "Watch your height", “Maintain straight and level”, ”Set an attitude”.

I have flown a few different types and I like them all including the 152!!. This also means I have done a bit of dual since my PPL. I actually really enjoy learning and flying with instructors especially those who have a another day job and instruct just because they love flying. Career instructors are also great to learn from (but can be demanding). I found young airline wanabees competent but a mixed bag, some don’t seem to be having fun. I think perhaps it is just a different attitude.

I still want to do a night rating, learn some aerobatics, go to USA/Canada and do a float rating. I want to try out a Nanchang/Yak and a Harvard one day and perhaps even a jet or spitfire. I want to own my own plane and/or build one. I was watching Ice Pilots a few months ago and found myself googling DC3 type ratings. “Put the computer down, walk away from the internet..”

Club events can be fun, throwing a flour bomb at 200ft is good for a laugh. Sometimes you do feel like you are hanging out at an old-folks home especially tail wheel / home build events but that might be different in the UK. Those old guys can outfly me anyway. I went to a beach fly in that was cool.
Then there is the low level pass to chase the sheep off the strip, or maybe that is a NZ thing.

And as my wife says if it wasn’t for flying you and your Dad would have nothing to talk about.

[Baikonour]

Well written post.:D
Hilarious bulletpoints - especially the last one :^)

[Camargue]

You can only really decide what you will do once you know what you enjoy and as you get to meet people you might find a plane and budget that fits what you want

my own experience:

family/wife/friends - some liked flying more than others but none have begged to take them up so its a long time since any of them have been up with me but you can fill some hours pottering around the countryside

w/ends away
took my wife away over Easter one time couple of hundred miles away - though it would be great to beat the traffic.
weather was supposed to be great. except on Monday it wasn't. left on Tuesday morning, then had to divert and then complete later in the day. was a right pain for both us with work etc. note to self - only go for long w/e's away if you have an imc rating in a plane capable of imc (I had neither)

I knew I liked aeros. Going for a £100 burger or long distance cross country has never interested me that much, so post ppl aero's have probably accounted for 80% of my hours.

These days with kids and other hobbies, time is as much of an issue than budget so what works best for me is to hang up my flying boots between October and March. Between April and September I will typically do about 15 hours Aero's (trips are generally 35mins each) and 5 hours pottering about in spam can.
this comes to about 4k per year.

[flybymike]

Brilliant post 500ft, and a refreshing dose of reality in that bullet point list. :ok:

[RTN11]

Unfortunately most don't renew after the 2 years. Fot the rest half are probably chasing a CPL and an airline job, the others are flying once a month if they're lucky.

[shortstripper]

Buy a share in something and treat the share price as an asset that can later be released ... That way there is no cost as such over the monthly and hourly rate. Lots of cheap flying to be had that way.

I have a Piper Cub share .... £1500 to buy in. £350/year fixed costs and £40/hr wet. So discounting the share cost, £2k would give me around 40 hours of flying or a bit less if touring and paying landing fees at other aerodromes (it's private strip based with no home landing fees). My budget per year is around £2-3K btw.

SS :ok:

[Hornet863]

I passed my skills test last August and pretty much straight away did my night rating as a means to keep current over winter. (shorter days / weather and aircraft availability were an issue in going for random flights etc...)
I am now at the point where I am trying to think what to do next, I have done a few flights with my 10 year old son on hour or hour and a half round trips from my home airfield (Southend) but now feel I need to branch out a bit more but time and commitments seem to get in the way as its a lot easier to squeeze an hour here or there of just flying than a whole day flying to a destination. It is proving tricky enough to fly once a month and keep the 90 day landing rule current!!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Depends what floats your boat. I am one of those tailwheel / aeros old farts 500feet refers to and that floats mine. I did my PPL in 1978/9 and was disillusioned with poor-handling club aircraft (spam cans) to the point of thinking seriously of jacking it in after qualification. It was like driving a Vauxhall Viva - I wanted and expected a Lotus 7!

Luckily a wise CFI introduced a bunch of us to a dH Chipmunk, and we bought it. Flew that for the next 33 years! I was in love! Aeros, strip flying, visiting fly-ins etc in this wonderfully characterful fine-handling machine was just what I needed to stay in the game. I did do the occasional Le Touqet for lunch trips in a spammy, but quite honestly bumbling along for several hours straight and level seemed to me to be a very expensive way to get bored. But some seem to like it. :)

Flew a Yak 52 for a few years as well (too thirsty for me, but great fun otherwise). And I loved the basic Cub - could go for one of those now if I could find a share on a strip.


As I said - what floats your boat?

[Camargue]

I agree shaggy. I learnt on an airsquadron in the days where it was possible to get lots of hours. I liked aeros, formation and nav flown at 250 ft.

Having got my ppl i would have given up as I was bored of all the planes on offer and could not afford a Pitts and in those days (early 90's) virtually impossible to find one to rent. Then one day I was put in touch with a chap who owned a Zlin 326 who wanted some one to help him put some hours on it. He charged me no more than a Cessna 172, it was based on a mown patch of grass in a farmers field in the middle of nowhere - I barely flew a circuit for 9 years, run and breaks at 500ft and less or a PFl onto the field for practice. Utter bliss until the owner and plane had motor problems so he sold it. Happy days!

[Maoraigh1]

I flew 71.7 tach hours for £4902, including standing costs, but not including landing charges, in 2013, in a group-owned P to F Jodel DR1050. A share costs £2200 at present. (None for sale.) I bought my share for £1600 at the start of 1990. 115kts cruise, 2+2 seats, run on mogas. Group funds are increasing at these prices, and catching-up rapidly on an adequete engine fund.
Find what sort of flying you enjoy first. Drop out if you can't find any flying you enjoy.
PS I agree with the bullet points post.

[shortstripper]

It is proving tricky enough to fly once a month and keep the 90 day landing rule current!!

Not a typical flight for me, but not unique either -

Passing the airstrip the other day with an hour or so to spare, so called in. Decided to have a superfast flight just because I could. Pulled her out of the hangar and did a low level circuit with touch and go ... another circuit and full stop landing before a quick wipe of the prop / screen before putting her away. I was at the strip maybe 45 minutes? Cost of the flight (not including fixed costs) ............ £3.98!

Maybe not a way to build hours, but value for money? ... Hell yes!

SS

[foxmoth]

It does need to be flying YOU enjoy, but personally I would see if I could get into a group round an (Aerobatic) RV. Doing aeros can be a bit like the last post, get the aircraft out, get airborne, up to height, aeros sequence and back on the ground in 20 minutes or less with WAY more actual handling experience than an hours bimbling, so you may do less hours, but you will be a much better handling pilot for less cost, also with an RV, if you DO want to go somewhere it will get you there nice and quickly - 140kts at around 25l/hr!

[thing]

I only got into powered for one thing and that was to go places. I came to it three years ago after decades as a glider pilot, so it had to offer me something that gliding didn't and that was the ability to fill the plane with mates and have a day or few days out. I did my night and IMC as soon as I'd done the PPL as I wanted to be well armoured just in case. As it turned out I actually enjoy instrument flying greatly so that was a surprise. If I had the sponds I would do a full IR, not that it would be much use with the flying I do but just for the experience.

So it's exploring new places that floats my boat flying powered. I've clocked up 250 hrs, four countries and around fifty airfields in the last three years, not that it's a competition but they do start to build up after a while. There are some very helpful threads on here regarding nice places to visit which for me usually means a grass strip with a pub nearby! I have a list of 'keepers' which are places that I've revisited several times.

As for costs I've spent about 16K if you take off the cost sharing contributions. That includes the instructional flights and what have you. I gave myself 10K in a lump sum to do all of the licensing stuff-it actually cost quite a bit less by the time I'd finished- then I budget £300 a month, so I'm quite a bit in credit at the moment for when I fancy that solo trip to Timbuktoo. I'm very lucky in that I have lots of semi or fully retired friends who love flying and will go at the drop of the hat. Cost sharing this way makes flying affordable, plus I much prefer having company in the aircraft and sharing the experience. I reckon I pay between thirty and forty quid an hour for rental overall.

As for aeros I've done them in gliders and powered just doesn't do it for me. It's all about energy conservation in a glider, less so in powered. Unless you're Bob Hoover...:):). But each to their own.

500 ft makes some very valid points and I'm sure that we can all recognise ourselves in his post. However there's more to flying than flying. I've been involved in aviation for 40 years this coming week and it's something that get's into your blood. It's not something that you do, it's what you are.

Ther's nothing on the planet, to me at any rate, as good as sitting on a grass strip on a summer's day surrounded by vintage aircraft and cars, the smell of freshly mown grass, the smell of the cockpit on a warm day, the faint whiff of avgas and oil, a picnic under the wing and of course most importantly, the company of like minded people.

Best of luck and my advice for what it's worth would be to try everything mentioned and see what you are attracted to. It's a wallet emptying experience so make sure you decide well!!

[green5498]

You could refine your map-reading and landing skills by coming along to the "Navigation and Landing Challenge" at Old Buckenham on Sunday 1st June.

You may see this event billed as a precision flying competition and this description may concern you but, until you have a go you won't know how much fun it is. You'll get to fly a given course of six or so legs around south Norfolk, staying on track and time, and looking out for photographed features. A gps logger will show you where you've been. Later you'll do four different types of spot landings aiming to touch down on the zero line.

The aim of both parts of the event is to improve your basic handling skills, not relying on gps for nav and preparing you better for a forced or precautionary landing. With practice you can become very accurate, and that's very satisfying.

Old Buckenham is on many pilots' places to go list, so why not go there and have a go?

[strollerweb]

having been skydiving for 27 years I always promised myself that I would try sitting up front where the heater. Ive been flying 3 years now and having done my complex training on a Piper Arrow, IMC, Night endorsement and tailwheel I have managed to keep myself motivated by currently learning new skills.

I read in aviation magazine article that gliding was a good way to improve your handling skills, so I went and did that as well. what the article didn't say was gliding is one of the best kept secrets in aviation. access to load of different types of two seat and single seat gliders a host of milestones to aim for. They are almost all clubs with plenty of coaching and mentoring to be had and of course the option to do tugging means its all you need.

[John R81]

I fly about 30hrs per year in EC120 (mostly) and R44 helicopters.

Additional / refresher training (a real forced landing is unlikely to go well if the last practice was a year back)
2x LPC to complete each year
Taking friends for a short flight
Lunch / weekends away (landing at the hotel)
Vacation trips (2+ days)
Occasional transport for meetings elsewhere in the country
Transport to a wedding (this year was a first)
Air Search volunteer
That last one means using the skills learned during PPL and having variety - plus giving something back to the community.

[Rod1]

I am the sole owner of a PtoF aircraft. I spend about £4500 doing 75 hours a year including touring Europe. At £7k if you get a share you will have no issue doing 70+ hours a year, even if the fist year has to include the share cost.

Rod1

[flybymike]

It's all relative Rod.
Hangarage alone at Leeds is around £8500 before you have even wheeled the bloody thing out on to the Apron , put any fuel in it, insured it, and paid for an annual and a 50 hour check, let alone actually flown it....

[Rod1]

You can spend an huge amount on flying. If I was lucky and lived in Yorkshire there are many strips at around the £1k a year - or I could keep it at Leeds. I could operate on a P to F and pay about £350 a year on maintenance all in (average over the last 9 years) or I could pay through the nose.:ugh:

You can even get aircraft which you can take home every night and keep on the drive or in the Garage.

Rod1

[flybymike]

Alas very few strips in Yorkshire compared to "dahn sarf," and most significantly of all, only one which is within remotely convenient travelling distance for me, and that also happens to be a regional airport.

Roll on retirement and a house move in the next year or two and I think I may well be in touch with you for advice Rod. Those sort of running costs are dreamworld figures for me...

[Rod1]

If you were to move to the midlands tomorrow I can get you in at the strip I am based at - 650m. We have one space available - preferably for an LAA type - £1000 for a two seater £1200 for a 4 seat (PA). Strip is near Tatanhil.

Rod1

[Ampage]

Aerobatics, Aerobatics, Aerobatics

About 40 mins a week, C152 Aerobat out of Cranfield.
Would do more if I had time.

[mary meagher]

Hey, Falcons 11, take a look at what Strollerweb has to say at the bottom of page one!

Most of those who replied to your question are straining pretty hard to keep current or interested. Alas, the pilot's license once obtained often languishes unused while the once keen and delighted pilot either runs out of money, takes up golf, or goes sailing...

Camargue tells the truth about weekends away by air!

So why am I still flying since taking up gliding in 1983? Every flight is a challenge. Using the elements instead of an engine.
Going solo is only the beginning. Going cross country the next step, get that wrong and you visit a farmer, and your friends come to get you with the trailer and you all stop off at a pub for a meal on the way back to the gliding club.

Then, adventure! Soaring to 20,000 ' in the Cairngorns! Rock polishing in Wales at the Black Mountains Gliding Club. Average flight along those hills is more than two hours. My longest flight in the UK, in a regional competition, was 8 hours and 52 minutes, to cover 511 kilometers. On that day, 50 gliders flew the task, 27 got round, I was the slowest! but what a sense of accomplishment! I have flown in France, in Russia, in Ireland.
Every where gliding clubs welcome another glider pilot.
I then gained the PPL, did flying in the US with power, got the seaplane rating, flew at night, over the Missisippi, in Florida in a J3 on floats. And became useful at the gliding club as a tow plane pilot.
Enjoyed instructing most of all, very sad to have retired from that now, also have to fly with a safety pilot owing to lapsed medical. Still flying, however. Forever and ever, a glider pilot.

[Private jet]

I think you'll find that the reality of the situation is that unless you are going on to do it professionally (gamblers/fools... who knows) or have a seriously realistic financial budget then the majority of those that qualify won't be doing much flying in the future. This has always been the case, nothing changes, only the fresh faced mugs turning up at flying schools.