Logging PICUS after ATPL issue?

[Globally Challenged]

Is there any point bothering with logging PICUS flights as an FO once you have an ATPL?

I can't see any merit in it myself as I can't see anyone being interested so do people log all sectors as P2 from then on until you jump to the left?

[OhNoCB]

I stopped logging it (apart from LPC passes) after 150h because that is/was the max you could use for issue of an ATPL.

[Bealzebub]

Sure.

For multi crew flying it differentiates those sectors when you are the PF and the PNF. As PF you (normally) act as the pilot-in-command under the supervision of the actual pilot-in-command.

P1/S is normally logged in the P1 columns and P2 in the P2 columns. It isn't only the regulatory authorities, but quite possibly future employers who may well want a breakdown at a later date. It is going to be a lot easier if you separate the hours from the start.

[parabellum]

What Bealzebub says. One application I filled out required P1, P2 and P1U/S


By piston, turbo prop and jet, segregated by weight, AUW, in Kgs), >20K, >50K and >100K, and above 100K. Took a long time to get it right but the secret is, having filled out such a form you should then photo copy it, subsequently you only have to do simple addition to those categories.


My point is, if you log carefully to start with you won't be tearing your hair out later when you have several thousand hours on a variety of types, a personal choice but I would also recommend monthly and annual summaries.


It depends whether or not you regard your log book as a simple electronic record of hours flown or, as in my case, a hand written almanac of my forty year flying career with notes, names and the occasional photo added.

[mad_jock]

Apart from that's a purely UK interpretation of the PICUS rules that you can log it on any PF sector and the company can just pen a letter and say all hours correct.

Most in fact every one apart from the Dutch require the PICUS to be stipulated in the Part D and that there is a signature for every flight. Some also limit it to only with LTC as well and have minimum hours before you can start logging it.

Personally I don't log and didn't log it as an FO as I had enough PIC time anyway when I got my ATPL. All I have of it is the test passes from my training days.

So this is extremely UK orientated advise.

[Globally Challenged]

Thanks for the input guys.

I shall continue to log it for the eventuality that somebody may ask for it in the future - certainly sounds easier to deal with it as you go rather than retrospectively trying to calculate it.

Cheers :ok:

[Judd]

Although each State had its own rules, it sure gets complicated. It seems to me that there is some sort of perceived aviation stigma attached to logging co-pilot time in the co-pilot column. Because it appears that co-pilots, second pilots, first or second officers or whichever label you prefer to attach, are so intent on avoiding logging their flying in the dreaded co-pilot column that they will go to all sorts of tricks to avoid it. In reality it boils down to the fact you are flying either under dual instruction which means you log it as such in the dual column, co-pilot (logging in the co-pilot column) or in command (self explanatory). Dressing it up to make pretend you are playing at being a captain, doesn't fool anyone.:=

[Bealzebub]

I don't think there is any "stigma" attached to it at all. If you are the co-pilot performing P2 duties and you not the de-facto commander of the aircraft, then quite obviously you log the time in the P2 (co-pilot) column. If you are the de-facto commander operating as either the PF or the PNF you log it as P1 (pilot-in command.) As a co-pilot flying as PF and acting as the P1 under the supervision and authority of the pilot-in-command, you can log it as P1/S (PICUS) If you have a log book that maintains a P1/S column for this purpose, that is great. If not, then you can annotate the entry as P1/S and log it in the P1 column.

With nearly 25,000 of logged hours in 8 logbooks I can tell you in a little over a minute how many of those hours were logged as Pilot-in-command, Pilot-under-training, co-pilot operating as the PF, and co-pilot operating as the PNF. This with separation of both day and night hours.

By logging everything as P2 the separation of flight time would take days of laborious line by line dissection. It isn't a case of "fooling anyone" it is a case of logging what you are actually doing and making life much easier when you are talking about twenty five thousand hours rather than twenty five hundred, by which time you will laugh at the absurdity of getting hung up over this sort of nonsense.

[mad_jock]

Its purely a British thing I have found nobody else even looks at it.

And EASA will be getting involved with the way the Brits are logging it. There are quite a few other country's complaining about it and the loose way its done.

You can log what you like in your own log book over and above what the minimum requirements are.

[Bealzebub]

It isn't "purely" or "extremely" anything. The breakdown is a common application form requirement from airlines around the world. I have seen it with large Middle Eastern and Far Eastern operators. Filtering out the information from your logbook can then be as easy or as difficult as you have chosen to make it.

[mad_jock]

The way the UK pilots log it is illegal under EASA.

You need the flights defined as PICUS for the day and a checklist followed from the part D.

The PIC then needs to sign that the pilot completed the day satisfactory. The logging it every PF sector is illegal under EU ops.

Which is the reason why other country's are complaining about it.

People can have a PF column if they like but unless they comply with EU ops on the conduct of the flight it is just a normal co-pilot flight be the pilot PF or PNF.

[Bealzebub]

Citing the EASA Acceptable Means of Compliance and Guidance Material to Part-FCL1 with the relevant parts underlined, which citation are you relying on for your suggestion of "illegality"?

(b) Logging of time:

(1) PIC flight time:

(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC;

(ii) the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor;

(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;

(iv) the holder of an examiner’s certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an examiner in an aircraft;

(v) a co-pilot acting as PICUS on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or as required by operational requirements provided that such PICUS time is countersigned by the PIC;

(vi) if the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.

(2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;

(3) cruise relief co-pilot flight time: a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat;

(4) instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;

(5) PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.

[mad_jock]

Number 5 if its not defined in your part D what the constraints are. And they certainly won't be rock up to work chuck the paper work at the captain listen into his CC brief then head out to the aircraft and crack on as normal. if the 5 pages that I had to write on the subject were anything to go by before it was approved. After getting a finding by a EASA audit by external to the NAA.

And there is another rule which says that every flight needs a signature for it to be logged.

There are certain country's pushing for it to be only available as part of a formal command course. And I suspect they will get there way. Just as they did when the UK didn't really bother with a proper ATPL skills test.

[Bealzebub]

Ok, so it is woulda, coulda, shoulda, might be, maybe as opposed to what it actually says.

[mad_jock]

No the UK current does not apply easa regs to the required evidence logging of PICUS hours when it comes to ATPL application. Also a lot of Parts D's don't have a mention in them about logging it.

Its method of accepting them is now being challenged by other member states as they did with the acceptance of an LPC as a ATPL skills test followed by the ticking of a box followed by signing of a statement to the current state of doing a LST sim profile and signing off a proper test paperwork.

The method of supervision needs to be documented in the training manuals and approved by the NAA before PICUS time is logged.

Under another bit of legislation the logging of PICUS time must be signed as satisfactory by the Aircraft pilot in command. If there is no signature its not legal PICUS time.

All documented and stipulated under law.