Help - Family of 5 but only NPPL(m) - what license type / conversion path?

[Gbandera]

Hi all,

I hold an NPPL(m) and was planning adding SSEA before April next year, then the paperwork conversion to EASA LAPL - all good.

However, somehow in planning my path I missed the little matter of the 4 POB restriction on both the LAPL and NPPL (SSEA), trouble is I have 3 children and not 2!! :rolleyes:

From what I can see from initial reading if I want to fly the family (my wife is learning too at present), then adding my 3 year old to the passenger list will basically require me to throw most of my existing time and all the exams out the window and start pretty much from scratch on a full EASA PPL???? :ugh:

Are there any other options that would allow me to fly all of us on the occasion we'd want to go somewhere (other than take two aircraft once my wife gets her license!), is it really that cast in stone??

If a full EASA PPL is the minimum I would need to take all the kids, then what is the best path from my NPPL(m) rating held currently?

I have a feeling that I've made a huge mistake in going the NPPL(m) route, and it's hugely frustrating as I did research it at the time - seemingly missing that little detail though that is threatening all our plans...

Any help really appreciated :O

[Mach Jump]

Other than selling one of your children and putting the money towards your SSEA Class Rating there isnt an easy way out of your situation.

To fly with more than a total of 4 people on board, you will need a full EASA PPL. I'm afraid it is 'cast in stone'.

I think that the easiest way to an EASA PPL from where you are is to add an SSEA class rating to your NPPL, as you already intended (You will have to do the full PPL exams for this anyway), then do the extra 10 hours training and Skill Test required to convert that to a full PPL.

Another complication that just occured to me is that there are, as far as I know, no 5 seater aircraft available, although I believe that you can have a small child seat fitted in the baggage area of the Cessna singles. This means that to carry 5 people, you will need a 6 seater. the Piper Cherokee 6, and the Cessna 206 are the ones that spring to mind, and as they both have variable pitch props, you will also need to complete the 'Differences Training' for that.

Don't forget that you will also need a Class 2 Medical Certificate, and it would be best to get that issued before you start.

Maybe my opening suggestion is looking more attractive now? :eek:


MJ:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can see two options:-

(1) EASA PPL

(2) Two aeroplanes, "his" and "hers".

I suspect that (2) is probably cheapest, as the occasions you want to take the whole family will be rare, and on those you can rent the second one.

G

[Mark 1]

There are a few aircraft that I know are certificated for 5 seats. But they generally have 3 across the second row, which might not be too bad for smaller kids.
Jodel D140 and Wassmer Balladou are unlikely to be available to rent, but do the job on 180HP. I believe the Cirrus now has a fifth seat option.

If you intend to regularly go long distances with 5-up, then a six-seater is probably a better bet, especially as they grow bigger and heavier. Add on an IR etc. and it ain't gonna be cheap.

[BEagle]

Option 1: Sell one kid.

Option 2:

Add SSEA Class Rating to NPPL in accordance with the existing requirements; these do NOT require you to 'do the full PPL exams for this' - see http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/NPPL%20XC%20REV%2011.pdf p2/23 which states that the only exam needed is Aircraft (General) & Principles of Flight.
Convert NPPL to 'virtual' LAPL, then do the upgrade course for LAPL-to-PPL. CAP804 gives details of the requirements.
Find something like a Cherokee Six or Saratoga to hire - probably about £210 per hour if the Kidlington-based aeroplane is typical and you'll also need variance and differences training. Plus it's likely that there may be some supplementary insurance-driven PIC time requirements from those offering the aircraft for hire.

[Mach Jump]

...these do NOT require you to 'do the full PPL exams for this'...

Oops Beagle is right about that, :O but just to clarify, the Principles of Flight and Aircraft General Knowlege are two seperate exams now.

Beagle, what is a 'virtual' LAPL?


MJ:ok:

[shortstripper]

By the time you've done all that your kids will be older like mine and will prefer to do their own thing rather than go flying with Dad!

I have five and they all like the odd flight but none have the bug. I guess growing up with a Dad that flies means it's "normal" and has no novelty value? :\
Seriously though ... It's so rare that a whole family want or need to go flying together you will be spending an awful lot for a once in a blue moon event!

It would be interesting to do a poll and see if anyone on the forum ever take their whole family flying ... Most fly alone or occasionally with a partner or friends.

SS

[Gbandera]

I think the virtual LAPL is a reference to the 'paperwork only' conversion that can be performed if you hold a UK NPPL(SSEA) before April 15, 2015. As I understand it you 'simply' fill out the application and 'exchange' your valid NPPL(SSEA) for a EASA LAPL (hence the virtual as you don't actually do any specific training or exams, but the LAPL you receive is fully valid).

A quick look at the LAPL to EASA PPL(A) doesn't look that bad, actually. This link outlines it;

LAPL to PPL. (http://www.fenland-flying-school.co.uk/easa_lapl_ppl.html)
(I'll go read the CAP itself when I have time / built up the will :) )

If it's correct then some flying time from the LAPL will count, and there is ground-school to cover but no exams to sit (which seems a little odd).

Aircraft wise it is indeed looking like a 6 when I get there, although there are some 5 seat Robin's (the all metal 100 series I think from memory), and of course the current generation SR22 has a 5 seat option if I'm 'doing OK' at that time!!

Of course the selling of my third child will always be the most attractive option, but I need to check the appropriate CAP to make sure it's done properly :) !!!

Thanks for the responses - much appreciated.

[BEagle]

Mach Jump, it means that an NPPL SSEA holder needs to meet NPPL to LAPL conversion criteria before taking the LAPL to PPL upgrade course, but does not actually need to apply for a LAPL.

[Heston]

Flying the whole family sounds great, doesn't it? But is it what they will want, or simply a romantic notion that is more for your benefit than theirs? I tend to agree with Shortstripper. The number of times that you will take the whole family probably will be so few that you will feel it isn't worth it.


It would also be a good exercise to think through what you really mean when you say "fly the family". Do you mean regular trips to, say, the continent, or the odd Sunday afternoon bimble? What will they expect?

[Gbandera]

Apologies for the delayed responses but my posts are still being moderated.

I do get what people are saying regarding how common will flying with the family be. However, I really do think this will be more often than perhaps is common - namely because;


My wife is totally hooked and is learning to fly herself.
My eldest son has be aircraft mad since 3 years old, already spends far more time than he should flying FSX (properly), reads all sorts of texts (including Pooleys), and is not reach 8 years yet!
My youngest son is already following in his brothers footsteps.
My daughter doesn't have an interest in flying herself, but is extremely into being a passenger!


As such I can honestly see lots of bimbling, along with annual holidays within the UK and Europe involving private aviation...indeed the £100 burger is going to be more like the £125 burger!

I honestly get that most people will think of whisking the entire family off at regular intervals and it never transpires (indeed I see it at my club where spouses get dragged along every once in a while much to their clear displeasure!) - but dinner table conversation in my house revolves around GA, and it is often hard to divert the subject. Indeed my wife and I talk about the kids, or flying - that's about it!!

To be honest I cannot believe how lucky I am - I have a successful business that can support my hobby, and a wife / family that are genuinely as enthusiastic as I am - can you ask for more I ask??! :ok:

[worldpilot]

Go get a Honda Jet. The parameters look good and will accomodate your family. The range is ok for reaching all attractive locations in Europe. It is single pilot certified too.

WP

[500ft]

There is apparently an optional child seat for the baggage area of a 172M.

Not that I have ever seen one in real life, perhaps even rarer than a cost-sharing passenger:)

[BackPacker]

I heard a story about a family like yours who took both the car and the plane on vacation. In that particular case only one of the adults had a licence so the flying was done by him, and the driving by her. The children alternated between riding in the car and the plane.

In your case, you and your wife could alternate the driving and flying obviously.

This not only solves your dilemma about the number of POB, but also sorts out the W&B issue (for a family of five with full holiday baggage you probably won't have enough capacity in a six-seater, but OTOH you probably already have a car with sufficient space for everything) and sorts out the issue that an aircraft really takes you from a place you don't want to be (an airport) to another place you don't want to be (another airport). And it also means that on bad weather days you still have the means to go somewhere with the whole family.

The occasions where you really want to take the whole family up at once are probably going to be so few and far between that it's not worth converting to a PPL and getting a six-seater. You may be better off by renting a second plane for those occasions.

[Blink182]

Full EASA PPL , Twin Rating and buy an Aztec ?

[Gbandera]

The drive / fly idea is an option, but the real driver here is that we all enjoy GA flying - so I can see the car being seen as a 'penance' rather than part of the fun.

With all of us seriously into GA I do honestly do believe that we will want to fly together a whole lot more than many might expect.

Seems like the full EASA PPL is the only option, but if further research holds up what I've initially read then it isn't going to be that arduous - especially as much of the requirement involves flying!

Abridged / abbreviated then, I think my route is now;


Class 2 medical
NPPL(m) > NPPL(SSEA) - Tuition, GST, NST, and the additional couple of exams.
NPPL(SSEA) > EASA LAPL - Paperwork exercise or 'virtual'
EASA LAPL > EASA PPL - Flight training, GST & Solo NavEX


Then decide on the aircraft and do what ever type / differences training is required...

Good job the better weather should be ahead of us!

[BackPacker]

Along the way, make sure one of the examiners signs you off as an LPE 6. The CAA doesn't issue an EASA licence without an appropriate (non-expired 4 or 5, or a lifetime 6) on file.

[Sam Rutherford]

Our C182 has six seats - though the rearmost seat has a maximum of 54kgs for two kids (giving 6 POB) or one small adult (5 POB).

Cheers, Sam.

[oscarisapc]

It is one thing having a dream but quite another living it. From your post, you already have a microlight license which you have obtained as an expeditious way of getting a Group A licence (for those of you who wish to correct my terms, note that I have held a PPL(A) with various ratings but I have now retired from flying after 25 years of fun so I may have got the new names wrong). You are also a person who runs a successful business and will not be baulked from a set path. Your flying so far has been daylight VFR (solo hours?) in a microlight which is a totally different ball game to making Go/NoGo decisions when you have promised the family a weekend away somewhere and the weather is marginal. Do you think you are going to be comfortable with all four of your loved ones depending on you as you shoot an approach to minimums in turbulent conditions? There are a number of accident reports on families that have died as result of Dad (often a successful career man who sees flying as just another task on the to-do list) experiencing get-home-itis and pushing himself beyond limits in order not to let the family down. Read some crash reports for what happens when Dad loses control of the cockpit shortly before he loses control of the aeroplane.

We have all pushed things in a flying career – and fortunately I am still here but I have had my share of clean laundry moments when the weather has closed in and the old adage of “much better be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than the other way round” has come to mind. It is one thing to have unrelated passengers but quite different when the people depending on you for their lives are your family. So my advice to you and your wife is to enjoy flying, and get whatever additional qualifications you want for their own sake. You will still have masses of fun, and if the family all want to go flying during a holiday there is always the taking it in turns option described in a previous post.

[Gbandera]

Lots of good advice and food for thought there, so thank you for taking the time for such a comprehensive response.


Everyone is different and just to clarify this specific instance my microlight path was not out of some sort of expedite; I had undertaken a lot of research and had trial flown both microlight and group A. My decision (rightly or wrongly) was that the 3 axis microlight offered more feel with such a light aircraft and would give me exposure to 'grass roots / ground up' flying. The plan was always to build on this with heavier / more complex aircraft. The intension being to 'layer' experience. My ambition is and always will be simply to learn and constantly improve.


Flying has been a desire and strong interest since I was about 4 years old. I started to learn in my late teens, ran out of money and then focused on building a business and growing my family. Flying for me has never been something to tick off - there have simply been a stream of extenuating circumstances which until relatively recently has meant I have had to apply sense, temper my personal needs / desires and refrain from pursuing my license.


I won't deny for a minute that the family trips are dreams, and that they are shared by my wife. Dreams are what drive us on after all!! However, I have waiting to the point where I do not need to put pressure on, and would never plan something so restrictive or timed so as to not being able to leave a day or two early or late if conditions looked less than ideal. Ultimately I would opt for alternative transport rather than take risks.


That said I would be more reticent to fly a trip with only part of the family, and as for feeling comfortable with all the family relying on me - we'll I don't think I should be in the air at all if I didn't feel I was safe and sensible (and always aware / focused on the risks to myself, those on the ground and fellow aviators).


Floats has always been a dream too and have had the privilege to passenger on several small float planes - a PPL gives me a route to this too so again something to work towards at some point.


Like I say, everyone's different and motivation comes from all sorts of places. Whether I reach my current aims I don't know, but I know I will have fun on the journey and without dreams or ambitions I would not have experienced the most amazing feeling that flight bestows...


Hopefully my path is technically correct / viable at least - I'd welcome any insight or comment if I have it wrong.


Thanks everyone

[Piper.Classique]

Sounds entirely reasonable to me, Gbandera. You can always hire a car when you arrive at destination. Do remember that vfr flying doesn't have a high dispatch reliability, and be prepared to spend some time waiting for weather. Well, actually, a lot of time...
I have met a lot of interesting, charming, and helpful people touring in a slow aircraft with no instrument flight capability. It will be a great adventure for the family, too. I do have a feeling for two aircraft though, his and hers as it were. One that you own, and hire another for the times you really need the luggage space, that would keep the costs somewhere short of stratospheric. Six seater singles being a bit thin on the ground, as it were. Or an An2 fitted with beds? And a personal oil tanker :-)