RFDS Pilatus PC-12 In NZ

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Please don't tell Capt Wally, but I noticed one of the RFDS PC-12(poor mans version of the B200) cross the ditch and visit the land of the long white cloud.

Nice few days flying Adelaide-Sydney-Wellington-New Plymouth-Wellington-Hobart-Adelaide.

Check it out on Flightaware.com

[morno]

Yeah VH-WBI isn't an RFDS PC-12

[Capt Fathom]

The rego was VH-FVB according to flightaware.

Medical Evacuation?

[morno]

Fathom, you are correct. Sorry CLX, I saw VH-WBI but didn't see FVB until Fathom pointed it out.

Strange.

morno

[Wally Mk2]

Jesus there's some brave people out there doing a medivac in a single!:)

It's scary enuf in a twin & throw in night, storms, torrential rain, marginal ALT dromes & corrupt countries (no guarantee lights will be on never lone the ILS)....pass, some risks are just not worth it the older you get:ok:

Wmk2

[Bevan666]

http://www.avsoft.com.au/ext/pc12-1.png

http://www.avsoft.com.au/ext/pc12-2.jpg



It was a fun trip!

Bevan..

[megle2]

Doesn't pass my risk plan so not something I would do
Your welcome to take the next one to

Is a sales trip a charter

[VH-XXX]

What, no Avplan on the dash?

[Bevan666]

No room with all that glass - AvPlan was on our kneeboards though!

As for risk - this was in a single engine turbine. I've done the same trip in a piston single, so this time was far safer in that regard.

[Howard Hughes]

Would be interested to know routes flown, flight times, fuel burn, etc...

PS: That's why it was parked at the Eastern end of the apron in Sydney the other week?

[megle2]

"In that regard" correct
Using the same logic the next flight will be in a B200 and the next in a jet :ok:

Avplan - Big tick

[Nautilus Blue]

They were at FL280.

Single engine over water and at the Flight Level of Death TM :eek:

[pelosh]

Hi Nautilus Blue,

Do you mind explaining your idea of "FL of death".
Cheers

P

[Jamair]

I was in a 23000 hr B200 thats nowhere near the end of its life and shut down an engine. I yawned, switched on the x-feed and flew on to my original destination without worrying about how many airstrips were in the area......

[dodo whirlygig]

"There was roughly 8 strips they could still land at without power. "


and IMC, or at night?? ---------------- small comfort no matter how many strips within gliding distance!!




I'm with Jamair.

[megle2]

So Dancer, did they pick one out and complete the demo without a restart

[DancingDog]

@Dodo
I don't know what the wx was because I obviously wasn't there, but given that its the outback and a promo flight there's a good chance it was daytime with good visibility.

Regardless, the point is that single engine aircraft are not flying coffins like they're often made out to be.

[Howard Hughes]

I was in a 23000 hr B200 thats nowhere near the end of its life and shut down an engine. I yawned, switched on the x-feed and flew on to my original destination without worrying about how many airstrips were in the area......
Classic PPRuNe! :D

It's all about options, it's nice to know that once you commit to an airfield if it doesn't look good, there is always another option! ;)

[Wally Mk2]

I lurv reading the stuff about SE & how many dromes they can reach, keeps me amused for a little while:)
I recall some years ago chatting to a central section pilot whom was laying over at EN one day awaiting his med team to return & I asked him what's the proc for a cloud break engine-less over the top of a drome doing a non prec App? His answer sent shudders up my spine & I bowed in front of him, he was my new hero:E
And going to Alt & shutting down the only donk you have on purpose is nuts!
I'd break the guys wrist if I saw him go anywhere near the condition lever whilst still airborne & I don't care how LOP he runs it:E:E!:)


Wmk2

[chimbu warrior]

It wasn't a medivac - a short sales tour.

Oh man............don't tell me they are selling the RFDS now.:eek:

[Check_Thrust]

Nautilus Blue:
Single engine over water and at the Flight Level of Death TM
pelosh:
Do you mind explaining your idea of "FL of death".

Pelosh,

I dare say he was having a tounge in cheek go at statements made by Dick Smith in this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/532008-ads-b-mandate-atcs-responsible-deaths.html

I don't think he really considers FL280 to be the flight level of death.

[pelosh]

Thanks CT,
I did follow DIck's ADSB thread but was thinking we were going again down the line SE vs ME ......very popular recently.....:ugh:

P

[Desert Flower]

It wasn't a medivac - a short sales tour.

What a waste of money. :ugh:

DF.

[Oakape]

What a waste of money

Sales tours are generally paid for by the aircraft manufacturer. The charter rate for the aircraft probably ensured some extra funds for the RFDS.

The only concern would be coverage for the RFDS while the aircraft was out of the country.

[megle2]

Can the RFDS do charter, maybe that region has a AOC

[VH-XXX]

It's not charter when someone (manufacturer) borrows your aircraft for a private operation.

Just ask Bevan666, he was at the pointy end :) and can surely set everyone straight :ok:

[megle2]

I see, so if the PC12 was borrowed then no money changed hands for the aircraft or pilot so it wasn't a charter

[VH-XXX]

I see, so if the PC12 was borrowed then no money changed hands for the aircraft or pilot so it wasn't a charter

If I own a charter aircraft and it's used at ABC Air Charter which is a company that I own, I can loan it to you for $1,000 an hour and you can do whatever you want with it (except carry poached Lobster and Abalone) and fly it yourself. No AOC required for that.

[waren9]

fkn love how some are so quick jump to the default "how was that legal?" position. typifies so many in au aviation

onya bevan hoped you enjoyed the trip to nz

[Bevan666]

It was an ace trip :ok:

Just got to get myself into the left seat now..

[Aerozepplin]

They seem to have been pushing the PC-12 here in NZ pretty hard lately. Much interest that you're aware of Bevan?

[Desert Flower]

The only concern would be coverage for the RFDS while the aircraft was out of the country.

Yes - & I am sure there are plenty of other PC12's in the country that could have done the promo tour in its place.

DF.

[megle2]

Quote:
What a waste of money
Sales tours are generally paid for by the aircraft manufacturer. The charter rate for the aircraft probably ensured some extra funds for the RFDS.

Oakape posted the above so I would of thought the AOC comment was fair

[Alice Kiwican]

Could it be that they wanted to show off a medically configured PC12 for the aeromedical guys in NZ? It would be a pretty good replacement for a PA31 for example!

[Howard Hughes]

Perhaps they wanted to show the very latest variant of the PC-12 and that was the only one available in the region!:ok:

PS: Must have been a great trip, you gotta love a good junket! ;)

[VH-XXX]

It would be a pretty good replacement for a PA31 for example!

Wally might disagree, one has 1 engine and the other has 2.... depends on what you mean by "good" replacement.

[Desert Flower]

It would be a pretty good replacement for a PA31 for example!

A KingAir would be a better option!

DF.

[Alice Kiwican]

Good in the fact that it is an aircraft that is able to carry more, easy to load & unload with that big cargo door at the back & of course can cruise higher & faster than a PA31!
Having said that the KingAir can do all that and has 2 engines!

[Howard Hughes]

The two advantages the PC-12 has over the Kingair, are the ergonomic cockpit layout and the little door at the front, it'd be nice not to have to push past the pax on the way through! :ok:

[bentleg]

And how does pc12 price compare with king air, and running costs compare?

[Howard Hughes]

Bean counting is not my area of expertise! ;)

[Desert Flower]

and the little door at the front, it'd be nice not to have to push past the pax on the way through!

That part I would have to agree with, especially when you've got a 6'6" pilot who wears size 13 boots!

DF.

[Captain Nomad]

And don't forget range... PC12 beats the King Air hands down in that department.

[VH-XXX]

You could fly around NZ twice over on a tank of juice in a KingAir eh bro?

[Jabawocky]

should this thread have ever changing Titles as well?? :E

[Howard Hughes]

And don't forget range... PC12 beats the King Air hands down in that department.
In a single pilot aeroplane, the aircraft's range is directly proportional to the size of the pilots bladder! ;)

[Stationair8]

Don't reckon the Kiwis would worry about using grandma's chariot or the Lance on steroids for aeromedical flights when you can operate a Mu-2!

[VH-XXX]

should this thread have ever changing Titles as well?? :E

Now now Jabba, this one is 95% still on topic.

[pithblot]

The PC12 cargo door is much easier and quicker to use than the B200 cargo door mod.

[Howard Hughes]

Don't reckon the Kiwis would worry about using grandma's chariot or the Lance on steroids for aeromedical flights when you can operate a Mu-2!Yesterdays technology today? ;)

[Wally Mk2]

I would have thought the land of the long white cloud would not be a good environment in which to fly around in a SE at night IMC especially Medivac, I mean you are meant to be saving them not putting them at higher risk as well as the other suckers on-board!:}
If I wanted some glider practice I'd go fly a PC & enjoy the benefits of the glider being powered, for most of the time:)
As has been said ergo wise the PC kills the old Beech but that's cold comfort if the only fan stops over inhospitable terrain!

I guess at the end of the day you need to ask what cost do you put on a life?

Wmk2

[Capt Fathom]

Hey Wally, do you have one of those med-alert bracelets that says No PC12 :E

[Wally Mk2]

No I don't but gee that's a good idea:ok: One can never have enuf safety features not just 2 engines:)

Wmk2

[Stationair8]

Home » Westpac Air Ambulance (http://www.westpacairambulance.org.nz)

[Lindstrim]

Also this one too

Air ambulance services | Life Flight (http://www.lifeflight.org.nz/what-we-do/air-ambulance-services)

[Al Fentanyl]

There is a significant difference in operating costs - the B200 is LESS. PC12 is maintenance intensive. The B200C has a hydraulic cargo door that is no harder to operate than the PC12. The B200 doesn't actually require cargo door to load / unload stretchers, the airstair is plenty big enough. They are both capable aeroplanes, comes down to personal and organisational preferences.

[pelosh]

True, but the PC12 cargo door is much quicker and easier to open and close/lock.
And the position of the stretchers ( on the same side) give you more room to move around. IMO.

P

[Desert Flower]

They are both capable aeroplanes, comes down to personal and organisational preferences.

You have to wonder why the Broken Hill RFDS still have KingAirs, given that they fly in pretty much the same sort of territory as the South Australian guys.

DF.

[Wally Mk2]

DF the SE Section (BH, DU, SY & LT & EN in the past) did once upon a time some years ago look at the PC I believe but the added cost of training & maintaining a diff type, spares & some of the SE work is contractual meaning twin engine was stipulated all meant nup, to risky/costly, besides the Ambo's union (In Vic when that contract was being drawn up for the start of 2000) where concerned about SE Ops & the members where very vocal about the dangers so that was put to rest once & for all.
The SE Section have had a great run out of the old Beech so there is that thinking that if it ain't broke don't try to fix it:ok:
The old twin V Single, they both have their places in aviation but personally not in Aeromed, they save, not add risk:-)


Wmk2

[Desert Flower]

The old twin V Single, they both have their places in aviation but personally not in Aeromed, they save, not add risk

You won't get any argument from me there Wally! The old argument that PT6's never fail just doesn't hold water. I remember one of the Queensland RAAF pilots telling me that he had an engine quit on him on climb out in a B200 once. The aircraft was fully loaded, & he said that if it hadn't been for all the alarms going off he wouldn't have noticed much difference as it was still climbing out as if nothing had happened.

DF.

P.S. You've also just confirmed what I believed to be the reason why the SE section still have KingAirs. ;)

[Howard Hughes]

Let's face it the PC-12 is bigger, faster, more ergonomic, more cost efficient and has better single engine climb performance! :ok:

Still I'm happy SE has stuck with the old Beech! ;)

[Jamair]

the PC-12 is bigger, faster, more ergonomic, more cost efficient

UUUmmmmm......

There is a significant difference in operating costs - the B200 is LESS

[Hans Solo]

HH I'm sure that was said "Tounge in Cheek"....

On an average return flight from PD to JT, the PC 12 takes about 30 -40 minutes longer than the B200 did...Slower in climb (both R.O.C and IAS and cruise).

Perhaps we should use the term "One Engine-Out Performance" rather than Single-Engine Climb Performance.....Think the B200 might have a slight advantage.

Not saying the PC-12 doesnt have its good points, it surely does, but is not the best option for Aeromed in terms of safety, particularly at night/IMC.

Still, the bean counters assure us that it is well and truly cheaper to operate these than the B200's.
Hans

Put simply its a Risk Vs Cost exercise and the ones conducting it will probably never have their asses strapped into it.

[Towering Q]

In a single pilot aeroplane, the aircraft's range is directly proportional to the size of the pilots bladder!

Not a problem....when the Flight Nurse passes up the bottle. :ok:

[VH-XXX]

A single engine is not dangerous.

The most dangerous thing on an aircraft, is a schedule.

[Howard Hughes]

Not a problem....when the Flight Nurse passes up the bottle.
Come on Towering Q, what about the pisserphone?

Of course asking for the pan means a lifetime of ribbing from your workmates! ;)
On an average return flight from PD to JT, the PC 12 takes about 30 -40 minutes longer than the B200 did...
I'm shocked, maybe the sales hype, was just sales hype after all!:}

[megle2]

After watching that King Air crash in India on the PP Bizjet and AG forum maybe the 12 is safer

[pithblot]

This?



http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=046_1398741457

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/538798-india-king-air-crash-caught-video-march-27-2014-a.html

[MetGirl]

Flying doctors' plane on wish list | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/9946103/Flying-doctors-plane-on-wish-list)

[VH-XXX]

The region's air ambulance trust is currently working closely with the flying doctor service to buy the fully kitted out plane on offer for about $2 million, trust chairman Bruce Findlay said.

New planes cost more than $5m.

So the Aussie RFDS bought one for $5m and are selling it to NZ for $2m, have I got that right?

That's quite a loss for Aus although many may argue that it's a good thing to get rid of it.

[Alice Kiwican]

I would think it's unlikely the RFDS will be selling one of their NG's but maybe one of the older one's that there is talk Queensland Section will be retiring next year. Could be way off the mark though!!!

[Stationair8]

Maybe when the new PIlatus jet arrives for Central Section, the bean counters may offer our Kiwi cousins a few of the older PC-12's at the right price!

Perhaps they were going to give the PC-12 a run around the pylons at Wanaka?

[Howard Hughes]

Maybe when the new Pilatus jet arrives for Central Section,
Ha-ha, that's funny! :D

Actually I'm just jealous because we won't be seeing a jet anytime soon! ;)

[Stationair8]

HH, didn't somebody from your section put in for the FOM job at central section. Perhaps a little fly in the PC-12 to discuss secret mens business?

[Nick 123]

The blokes that are saying that there is not a lot of difference In operating costs between the PC-12 and the b200 how are you arriving at those figures? I've run a rough count over fuel figures alone based on 600lb for the b200 and 450 for the PC-12 which over 20000 hours works out to a saving of 3.75 million alone for the PC-12. Chuck on top the extra 2 million for the purchase price on the kingair. The PC-12 must be a hell of a maintenance hog if the operating costs are similar.

[Jamair]

The PC-12 must be a hell of a maintenance hog if the operating costs are similar yep, the maintenance is the killer and nope, the PC12 is actually more.

That part I would have to agree with, especially when you've got a 6'6" pilot who wears size 13 boots Actually the rudder arrangement in the PC12 means that you cannot - as a 6'4" pilot - extend your feet down between the pedals for a stretch, unlike the B200. Also the pilot seat in the B200 has multiple adjustments in all dimensions plus inflatable lumbar support. The door in the PC12 is nice but not nice enough to forgo the advantages of the B200.

[pc12togo]

Would be interested to see your figures on maintenance Jamair, having operated both types the PC-12 in our operation is approx 75% cheaper to run than the B200 including maintenance.

Even the independent 3rd party costing programs show the PC-12 to be cheaper to run. What are we missing here ?? The extra fuel burn alone in the B200 breaks the wallet.

We've got a 6'3" pilot on staff and he says he rests his feet on top of the rudder pedals comfortably in the PC-12 when he needs to stretch his legs.

The pilot seats in our PC-12's have a multitude of adjustments (and also inflatable lumbar support) as standard. I know the earlier legacy PC-12's didn't have as much adjustment (or lumbar support) but the ones we fly do.

[Jamair]

Yeah, nah, stick with what works for you dude. 75% cheaper? Riiiighttt....:hmm:

[Wally Mk2]

75% cheaper all sounds good for the bean counting boffins sitting in their cosy offices 9-5 they aren't the ones out there flying over tiger country in a SE at night in solid IMC all the way to the hills!!!
PASS:-)


Wmk2

[Nick 123]

Jamair until you can come up with some figures I just can't see how you can justify that. I fly the classic Pc-12 and I'm 6"3 and 110kg. I have 1000 odd hours on the b200 and find the PC-12 cockpit far easier to get into and with has more room than the kingair. Yes you do lose a bit on the leg room but I can deal with that.

As far as an aeromed aircraft give me the PC-12 anyday. Trailing link undercarriage, huge cargo door. More range and more payload and gives away very little in speed. The new b200's are so heavy and the 250 even more so they are becoming more and more impractical. It will be a a ridiculous waste of money when the rfds has to start replacing them with the 350

[pc12togo]

Whoops, typo. That should have read 25% cheaper. Or alternatively 75% of the cost of the King Air. Thanks for picking that up.

[aileron_69]

Could anybody give an accurate estimation of the overhaul cost of a PT6A-42 compared with the overhaul of a PT6A-67?

[David Eyre]

I would think it's unlikely the RFDS will be selling one of their NG's but maybe one of the older one's that there is talk Queensland Section will be retiring next year. Could be way off the mark though

RFDS Western Operations at Jandakot are retiring some of their older PC-12s. There is already one parked on the grass in the 'boneyeard' area at Jandakot: http://www.aviationwa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/20140530_VH-KWO_Pilatus_PC-12-45_David_Eyre-1.jpg

They also have three new PC-24 jets on order: Royal Flying Doctor Service (Western Operations) orders three Pilatus PC-24 jets plus one option | AviationWA (http://www.aviationwa.org.au/2014/05/22/royal-flying-doctor-service-western-operations-orders-three-pilatus-pc-24-jets-plus-one-option/)

[Towering Q]

OMG, I've never seen Kilo look that clean before!:ooh: