Another degradation of our T&C

[clear.right]

Rumour has it KA pilots have been offered priority 25 staff travel as part of their current wage negotiations.....

I suppose we will be offered 10 weeks leave!

[Ka-life]

All staff will be offered the same. Pri 25 on both airlines. Few benefits to the deal and a few negative also.

[eaglesnest1972]

@Tonytylor

are you from lake Como???

[Arfur Dent]

As someone said earlier, Tony Tyler is a poor, unwitty substitute for The Management. I suggest that we collectively ignore his contrived remarks. I mean, completely ignore him.:mad:

[SloppyJoe]

All staff will be offered the same. Pri 25 on both airlines.

Oh that is fantastic news, finally I will have a better chance of getting on the flights to Whouzhang or Nigshaziang. It is now harder for me to get back to Europe but so what.

So do we now PX in J with KA?

[cxorcist]

TT,

It's just not the same. Please stop. Cheers.

[Progress Wanchai]

Will this apply to any airline Cx/Swire happen to purchase? What if they go out and buy, say, that basket case that is Qantas? Will they get staff travel based on DOJ Skippy? What about part owned airlines? AC? It sets a precedent for other employee groups wage negotiations.

Talking of precedents. Have a guess what DOJ will apply to a combined seniority list. I can see it now "Our IT can't handle 2 sets of DOJ depending on wether you're catching a flight to TPE or doing a 777 command upgrade"

Changes to staff travel.
Joker leave for whoever sooks enough.
Using inflation to give us annual (daily?) pay cuts.
Etc...

It is a constant attack on our CoS by stealth.

When PW handed over the GMA position he's advise to RH was don't just listen to the squeaky wheel. They've taken that advise on board. When they can't hear anything they're playing solitaire.

Time to make some noise methinks.

[badairsucker]

Rod,

Agreed mate!

Sad thing is that the majority of CX employees will just never wake up, sad but true.

Giving KA PRI 25 was right out of the Swire handbook, give them a small pay rise and give them a few token improvements that cost the company nothing.


We at CX will never learn. Can't even get the AOA to follow our wishes.

[airdualbleedfault]

Sloppy, you forgot Shenyang and Chongching :ok:

Wanchai, any company that becomes wholly owned subsidiary of QF gets domestic travel based on DOJ and international based on rank/DOJ

[twotigers]

Little late to fight this gents. When the KA freighter guys came over as DEC's they kept their DOJ for staff travel, ect.. This fight should have happened then. Precedent set.

[SloppyJoe]

Yes far too late to fight this. Lets, like normal, do absolutely nothing but whinge on this site and the AOA forums. Blame the GC, but do absolutely nothing as it is too late. Lets continue to work on G days, help out by acknowledging changes and talk the talk on the flight deck. Far too hard to stand up for our contract so lets all just accept that this is just another degradation to our conditions that we can do nothing about. Awesome!

[twotigers]

Staff travel is not COS my friend.
CX could just as easily cancel it.

[SloppyJoe]

Well my friend, I see it as a reduction to my conditions of service. Housing, would also be a reduction, as would education if they decided to mess with those two policies. They could legally change these two items, should that mean any change should be accepted?

[twotigers]

My COS contains housing and education and annual FOC. It doesn't include staff travel. Big difference. Our staff travel concession is a gift, if you will. Housing is contractual

[Karrupted]

This is hopefully just another step towards combining seniority so that we can share in the expansion of the group. Later this year KA is going to run out of command candidates, and if I can dare to speak for my colleagues, I'd much rather throw open command opportunities to experienced FOs from within the group, than offering fast-track commands to new joiners.

I've just been flying with an FO who, in two years time, will probably get his command; his cadet course mates at CX probably have another 10 years in the RHS. I think that is the big issue which needs to be addressed.

Staff travel priority is small beer, but even if selfishness overrides fairness and good sense, KA are flying far more regional Asian destinations which should please all those weeping over this supposed slight.:ugh:

[SloppyJoe]

Mine too but it mentions something about in accordance with company policy. I am sorry to tell you but that means they can change company policy and it changes your CoS. Any degradation to our conditions should be fought, staff travel included. Yes I know it is not written in the actual CoS you signed, but like housing and education it is company policy!

[superfrozo]

Staff travel priority is small beer, but even if selfishness overrides fairness and good sense, KA are flying far more regional Asian destinations which should please all those weeping over this supposed slight.

Yeah, equal priority travel is really quite equitable. CX guys should just stop moaning. After all, who wouldn't want to go to Fuzhou?? I mean, come on - it has some of the nicest battery factories the world. And let's not forget Zhenjiang, twice voted "Lead smelter tidy town" by the PRC Environmental Awards group.

My all time favourite holiday destination though is Qinghai River: the bi-monthly rotting pig carcass surf carnival has to seen to be believed. The kids love it!

Imagine being able to access all that AND get a 'rapid command' in a KA A320, to experience all of these amazing places first hand?? Such a better option than visiting boring old Paris or Amsterdam. Total win/win for CX.

:ok:

[KABOY]

Imagine being able to access all that AND get a 'rapid command' in a KA A320, to experience all of these amazing places first hand?? Such a better option than visiting boring old Paris or Amsterdam. Total win/win for CX.

With that myopic view frozo, the progressive degradation of your conditions will continue unabated. Have you also noted that Penang and Bali are now KA destinations? Don't worry, eventually commands will take 20 years, making that Paris and Amsterdam view from the left seat all the more sweeter.

I think you need to worry a little more about the future....not the past.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Plenty of LCC's to and from Hongkers these days, cheap cheap!

Who wants to be on standby anyway:= especially with a family or commuting.

Get a confirmed seat, check in online, pick up your meal from Burger King on the way to the boarding gate...

Any delays/snags - airlines problem! No stress, no rush, hell, the cabin crew even smile when you board!!

[Trafalgar]

CX has cynically decided to remove our rank when applying for a JS....now I am 'mr' instead of 'Capt'. Ok, from now on I will only release J1 to cockpit crew. When you apply for a JS as a 'mr', email the Captain directly and let him know that you are cockpit crew and that you have applied for the JS. I will always check my emails first before I allocate to someone I don't know. There is obviously a direct attack against our conditions of service where it pertains to staff travel, and our only avenue of offense is to hit back where it hurts. No more JS to any manager or their family members, ever. :mad:

[crwkunt roll]

They even call you "MR" on your G days when they call and offer you a flight. However, you can plainly see if "MR X" is cockpit crew and what rank, when they apply for the JS.

[Trafalgar]

...I stand corrected, you are of course correct about the way it displays on the request page. Still....after all the reductions to our staff travel benefits it is no wonder I thought the worst...!! :ugh:

[broadband circuit]

No more JS to any manager or their family members, ever.

That's always been my policy.

[superfrozo]

Oz2.

I agree with you on one point - the degradation continues. Now, the CX pilots have another degradation of their Benefits whilst KA pilots benefit. It's hardly rocket surgery why KA pilots are pleased with this eventuality. Someone mentioned an equitable arrangement. I can't begin to think how this is 'equitable'.( Why we're there no issues from CX Pilots regarding "equal Priority" with KA all these years?!)

Hot tip: the vast majority of CX pilots are none too pleased about this, just to put it incredibly mildly. My post may have been somewhat tongue in cheek, but please: DPS and PEN being on the KA route list hardly makes up for OZ, NZ, NA and all of EUR does it?? As for being elitist, ha. If that means wanting priority on your own airline for staff travel, then sure - I'm a regular Rockefeller.

Last time I checked, there had been no merger. This is a classic divide and conquer tactic from the Company, and now many CX pilots will struggle even more to get their own Airline's Staff travel flights with the recent two lots of policy changes.

As for working together as professional pilots, you absolutely have my support. If CX offered its pilots some of the KA travel fund, at KA's expense, you would damn well bet it wouldn't be acceptable to me nor the vast majority of CX pilots. It's not appropriate to rob Peter to pay Paul. That's all this is.

Don't try and kid yourself about it being more 'fair' and 'equitable'.

One final word of advice to the Pilots at KA, beware of Management 'Greeks bearing gifts'. Recent changes in CX staff travel have severely limited Pilots' ability to staff travel, and you may find trading away anything in your current Negs for this 'benefit' to be akin to selling the cow for some magic beans. CX cabin crew are now far more likely to "trump" you than you think.

[Anotherday]

Australia2

You took a job at KA over CX because:

A) better housing straight off the bat at KA
B) No S/O bullsh*t to put up with
C) Left seat in 3 years
D) short patterns
E) travel allowance so you can buy full fare to get home

And having avoided the downsides that are a part of a career at CX you only feel it fair you should get CX staff travel too? You've got all that and you want more and you want to call others arrogant?

Mate we all work hard, we all end up in some ****ty hotel spending nights away from our family. And before you do the "we fly into China, we fly into China, we fly into China" that my KA mates keep telling me. Bless them. Yes you do fly into China but that's the job you took. It wasn't a Cairns-Brisbane shuttle that relocated to Hong Kong 5 yrs ago.......

Let's be honest, none of these changes cost the company a cent. This whole argument isn't about KA DOJ for staff travel, it's about future KA DOJ for CX bases isn't it?

[Dan Winterland]

Now, the CX pilots have another degradation of their Benefits whilst KA pilots benefit. It's hardly rocket surgery why KA pilots are pleased with this eventuality

It's not all benefit - the whole deal is not just about getting Pri 25 on CX. It will affect a lot of people in other ways and it's not as popular as you would expect. It's been put to KA as voluntary and I reckon a lot of people won't sign up to it.

[Liam Gallagher]

On the CX side of the road, we have been told nothing by the company nor the HKAOA.

To remove some of the speculation and mild hysteria developing in this thread, can you explain exactly what you have been offered?

I am also curious as to why you believe a lot of people won't sign up for it, what are the downsides?

Thanks.

[twotigers]

It will cost them .5 a trip of travel allowance (11,000 HKD ish), some confirmed
Business FOCs, perhaps more bits.
They are not ALL enthused.

[giggerty]

I am extremely disappointed the way this news is being received on this forum.

Back in 2008 all KA non flying staff were integrated into CX. We are talking a lot of people. All were given CX staff priority based on their DOJ with KA. There was not one whisper of protest from any pilots at CX.

The only KA people excluded from this were the flying staff.

Now after all these years of getting bumped by 19 year old office staff, CX has decided to address this anomaly and include us as part of the company. Amazingly the one group that is most vocal in raising opposition to this is our fellow pilots at CX.

There are less than 500 pilots at KA. at least half of them were hired after CX bought KA and as such have always been paid and worked for the CX group.

KA has been part of the CX " one team one dream" for 7 years now but only when it suits it seems.

As far as KA's destinations go the vast majority of jump seat requests I get are from CX employees ( admittedly there aren't many left at KA now). It may surprise you guys but there are a large amount of Chinese who work for CX who actually do want to travel to China. I'm sure they will appreciate the boost in their boarding priority. As well as the CX commuters from Phuket who are always after a JS. Plus the many CX cabin crew from Korea , Japan, Taiwan, Philippines India etc. KA is a regional airline and believe it or not most CX employees are from " the region" not everyone want to go to LA, London or Sydney.

As far as what's been offered. The barriers between the two airlines will be removed. Priority 25 on either carrier based on DOJ. FOCs on either carrier. ID 90 on freight ( we had this before but lost it when all our freighters went to CX).
Some of the down side is we lose the cost of an ID 50 from our travel fund. The big one though is KA recognizes common law spouses where as CX don't. This deal not only does not recognize CLS for staff travel But also takes away the medical benefit for the CLS they currently enjoy. Many of the guys with CLS have said they won't be signing over to the scheme as it's too big a financial hit for them. Many other guys are unwilling to give up the cash from their travel fund and would rather stay where they are and buy a full fare with the cash they saved.

Not sure what the take up rate will be. If you're married on a local contract then it's a no cost item and the take up will be 100% from that group. If you're an expat or have a CLS ( or both) then there is a financial hit. Each individual will have to weigh it up if it's worth it. Some will some won't.

[flyhardmo]

To the DPA and it's members,
Be warned that whatever you are offered is for their Benefit and not yours.

[Liam Gallagher]

Thanks for the sane replies.

Is this "deal" part of a wider deal on Pay and T&Cs or just limited to a trade off between Staff Travel priority and a portion of Travel Fund and benefits for CLS's.

Ps How do you prove someone is your CLS as opposed to a "special friend"?

[giggerty]

Liam

That's a bit of a contentious issue at the moment.

The DPA have concluded pay negotiations with the company. Predictably it has come out at the lower end of expectations. It's a three year deal of 3% / 2% /2% combined with a rise in FDP. Can't remember the exact figures but it's ends up being a 75% increase over 3 years. So it works out around 4 ish % per year if you work your standard 110 hours a month.
The company wants a COS change for this. They want to stop new joiners swapping fleets within the first 2 years of starting. Unlike CX we can swap fleets every two years but no such restriction applies to a new joiner.

We have a meeting on the 30 th to vote yes or no on this.

The conspiracy theory is that we were offered the staff travel deal to placate us for the low wage offer and COS change.

My personal opinion is that the deals aren't related. Both have pros and cons. The pay deal is not guaranteed of getting through. There is plenty of debate for and against. Plus as I said before not all want to take up the staff travel offer.

As to saying your CLS is a special friend. The staff travel deal allows a single crew to have a travel companion, but there are the normal restrictions with that plus they still lose the medical.

[giggerty]

Sorry, missed the common law spouse special friend bit.

In most western countries to prove you have a CLS you need to prove you live together and share finances. A joint bank account is a good start. Having kids will clinch it. This gives your CLS all the same rights a normal spouse, even in the case of divorce/ separation.

KA recognized this about 15 years ago or more. However neither the HK government or CX have entered the modern world and recognized the rights of a CLS. Unfortunately CX has chosen to take a backward step here and not take the opportunity to recognize CLS's like modern countries and companies do. It's the cheaper option not to.

Unfortunately those with a CLS are not only battling the company but the Government as well. It will be a long struggle I think

[AnAmusedReader]

So the answer to Liam's first question is that this is still just a rumour?
I haven't heard officially that this is to happen. Or have I missed something?

[twotigers]

Fact.

GMO offered it up about 14 days ago I understand.

[trevfly]

Most KA *guys will be paying for the privilege of DOJ staff travel. The I'd 50 is worth around on average $10 k , and it's upto the individual wether they can justify that giveaway every year for a better priority and some extra bookable J class FOC on CX.

Personally I'd be happy to pay twice this to get my 20 years seniority recognized for KA DOJ staff travel. The arrogance of those CX white shirts on the bus from the p,aza after a few B scale beers has been a thorn in my crotch for many years. Now I can pick a flight with a few listed CX guys, with 19 years of service n say see ya in economy Loosers !*

Ah let's not get spiteful. It's the Devine right of all CX pilots from the day they walk out with their shiney one bar to take command of their widebody, from that cockpit middle seat .Complete with FCOMs and With their wobbly legs and stomach all butterflies. But hey the bravado on their return after spending a very rewarding trip to Paris or Amsterdam, alone in their rooms scratching their ball$, You are welcome to than. And I'm not even voting for the KA payrise. That's baloney . But bet CX get similar offer. 3/2/2 wow I'm loving it.*

And let's not forget the 1900 cabin crew who will get DOJ too. Welcome aboard !*

[Liam Gallagher]

Thanks for the explanation. In terms of HK, KA's acceptance of CLS for the past 15 years was quite progessive. HK is still very conservative (with a small 'c')

Final questions- honest. Is the Staff Travel Deal separate to the Pay Deal? Would I be correct in assuming the Pay Deal is a DPA negotiated deal and it is before the DPA membership now to vote to accept or reject by the end of the month. I assume the Staff Travel deal is a separate deal and is down to the individual to accept or reject and once you accept, you can't go back.... Presumably, individuals have to accept by a certain date.

For the cabin crew or locally employed pilots I assume it's a similar choice, get DOJ but sacrifice CLS. I guess they don't have a travel fund, so the choice is more defined.

If my assumptions are correct, what's the date for acceptance of the Staff Travel deal?

[Gnadenburg]

trev

You Bloody Idiot. Belt up. Don't inflame the boy Captains on either side.


But really, what of the demographics of all this? Won't it benefit CX employees? Regional flying is going the way of KA according to scuttlebutt- Maldives and somewhere else next according to rumor.

Of our 500 pilots, only 150 at most are significantly beyond the ten year mark in seniority. Our cabin crew retire at 45 and the target employment for the last 10 years has been a group that don't travel terribly exotically- OK perhaps shopping trips to Tokyo but mostly they like Taiwan.

So CX employees over 10 years seniority are going to have priority access to a rapidly building regional network- some of it over their own routes. Well thought out from over the road I'd guess!

[Dan Winterland]

Well thought out from over the road I'd guess!

By a CX manager who commutes from a place which is either a new KA destination, or one which will be soon is my guess!

[Loopdeloop]

twotigers:
"fact" or "I understand"? You can't have it both ways!

[twotigers]

I was shown the GMOs email/ update, and then told the DPA president
was presented with the offer.

[giggerty]

Yep. Your assumptions are correct. The pay deal and the staff travel offer aren't linked. The timing appears to be coincidental. The vote on the 30th is only for the pay deal. Although you can bet there will be some fireworks at the meeting regarding the staff travel deal.

The DPA negotiated the pay deal and that needs a vote. The staff travel deal wasn't negotiated. It was just presented by management one day. I think the introduction is not until next year so everyone will have a while to decide. We don't have a final date yet to accept by. Actually the info we have been given is pretty threadbare. There are a lot of questions being asked with very few answers coming back. Hopefully we learn more this week. Apparently it's a once only offer. You take it and can't go back or you reject it and stay as you are for the rest of your KA carrier.

There may be a few guys making trips to the registry office. It's certainly a quick and easy way to solve their problems. Although not very romantic

The locals don't get the travel fund so it's just the CLS issue for them. Interestingly the standard contract which has been in place for all new joiners in the last 3 years or so does not recognize CLS. It appears KA is falling back in line with the CX masters rather than the other way round. I would say CX is trying to ring fence the remaining crew with CLS.

[Loopdeloop]

If KA really are following CX in every way they do business, feel free to change the words "once only" with "first opportunity"

[Rice power]

Trevfly, it is infantile comments such as your last that do no service to the advancement of pay and conditions for BOTH KA and Cx.
Truly, if the travelling public had any inkling of the juvenile nature of some of the inhabitants forward of the flight deck door they would catch the bloody train !
Give yourself an uppercut.

[Anotherday]

It's pretty obvious as the number of Oz based KA commuters goes through the roof as to why there is a big push now by the DPA to get KA DOJ for CX staff travel. Anyone who says it benefits CX crew because we all want to jump on the KA network is taking the piss.

Biggest loss here is to the CX new joiners who knew their package when they joined but now find they have lost 600 places in seniority when they rock up at staff travel.

Any newbies pondering AOA membership won't be happy with the change. The DPA on the other hand have pulled off a master stroke in taking from CX to give to it's members.

DPA 1 AOA 0

[twotigers]

Thru the roof? Really?

Perhaps there are 450 ish KA Pilots.

A third of them are local.
Of the remaining 300 or so.. over 60% are from countries other than Austrailia.

Out of those 120 left.. maybe half of them have more than 10 years service.

So.. 60 guys .. perhaps , likely less are NOT thru the roof.

Given as previously posted, we ALREADY allowed both the Freighter Captains & all the Ex-KA ground staff to keep their DOJ for staff travel when they transferred, you'd really wish to penalize the pilots?

You really do buy into this divide and conquer nonsense.

What should have happened at the merger/take over whatever, is everyone who was at KA received that date as their DOJ the CX system.

That still could be done & would seem in keeping with fairness for both.
The KA crews would still have 7 or so years of seniority, so any new hire hello kitty receptionist couldn't bump them, but have a
fair place against a CX guy with 8 years service to our brand.


That wasn't done and won't be so they can play us off each other. Buy a clue.

[Oasis]

I find it pure genius that CX has again somehow managed to have us fight amongst ourselves, again.
Dragonair pilots are not to blame, neither is their union.
It is CX that offered them something that they should've cleared with CX pilots first.

Divide and conquer.

[badairsucker]

It is CX that offered them something that they should've cleared with CX pilots first.



TOOL!:ugh:

[Oasis]

Takes one to know one, I guess. Bad air.
Or you maybe you can elaborate.

Stay classy brother.

[Anotherday]

If only it was that convenient.

If you're in the AOA you'd know that the KA pilots put it to the DPA that they wanted staff travel on CX from their DOJ at KA. The company never offered the travel, the DPA asked for it. Conveniently the AOA wasn't informed until after the company had accepted the DPAs proposal. It was pointed out at the time to the DPA that junior CX pilots would get shafted.

If anyone can give me an example of the AOA getting something that involved screwing over DPA members to get it, I'd love to hear.

[Gnadenburg]

Did you protest as loud when KA non-flying staff where given DOJ staff travel at CX? The AOA knew full well of this and did they protest?

And don't BS us, professionally immature folks like yourself have been banging on for years that KA was a take-over and that KA pilots should be integrated straight to the bottom of a CX seniority list.

Personally, I've said it from day one, KA pilots should stay away from any integration talks until CX pilots wise up as evidenced by the poster above. And why integrate anyway? There is no advantage I can see whatsoever.

[Oasis]

Another Day,
I stand corrected.

[Anotherday]

Professionally immature? Seriously?

It would have taken a single email from the DPA to the AOA to say this is what we're negotiating and this is how it affects your members. And I'd guess most AOA members would have been ok with it for the greater good of the pilot body.

And you have to ditch that chip on your shoulder. AFAIK yes KA was taken over, the CX parent company acquired a majority shareholding in KA, there was no share swap, no legal consideration of both companies into one entity. But the thing is no-one at CX cares, no really, we don't. Both airlines benefit from each other.

I didn't mention KA starting at the bottom of seniority. You did. It's ridiculous.

The DPA was desperate to get the staff travel through at all costs, that doesn't appear to me like your pilot body wants to avoid integration.

[Loopdeloop]

Gnad

From your last post it seems like you're basing your thoughts on the posts you see from purported CX pilots on PPRune. If so, you're operating with only half a brain!

[Gnadenburg]

Anotherday

Staff travel was not negotiated at all - it came from left field.

Yes, I'm sure that the KA pilot and flight attendant unions asked why KA ground staff and management get expanded staff travel privileges. I understand it came on deaf ears since the take over as the managers over the other side of the table enjoyed the improvements and had no interest in sharing.

Conspiracy theories abound such as it is to sweeten a low-ball pay offer and the fact that KA is expanding rapidly over regional routes which effects CX Staff.

Pilots on both sides are pawns and have little control over staff travel so please don't try an incite a fur ball between pilot groups who should be working far more closely together.

Nope, most of us are happy too. Please don't believe a majority want your bases or your flying. The take up rate was so low of KA-CX transfers on take over it shocked your management. They probably even had hurt feelings all of our cadets came back. Even Geoff, the Chief Pilot we were sent, wanted another term over this way…..so yes, a few of our guys will push agendas to try and get over your way and I'm sure a few of your guys may want our expansion ( especially the expansion over your routes ) but for the most, CX is not a desired place to be.

Loopdeloop

Yes, your right, here and the B scale bars of mid-levels. Far more mature and harmonious company at the gay bar. :}

[giggerty]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Can I fill you in with some info?

When CX bought KA back in 2006 we got our first pay rise in 8 years. Life was good.
Then we lost our entire freighter fleet to CX. ( sure I know some ka guys joined Cx but the majority flying those aircraft are Cx guys).
We lost routes to Bangkok, Tokyo plus the planned Sydney flights were canned ( all operated by CX).
Next all other staff other than "us flying staff" were given the CX staff travel DOJ deal.
Next we gave CX some of our slots to PVG and PEK. ( operated by CX pilots)
Our over all fleet size had shrunk by 30% and command upgrades ground to a halt. They would take 6 years to start again.

Next CX started to operate "our routes"under "our call sign" to Taiwan. We don't have a scope clause so we couldn't successfully protest, but no one in the AOA seemed to mind that you were doing our flying and slowing up our commands and growth. This still happens now.

The basic feeling amongst KA crew is that the AOA doesn't really give a damn about us. To be honest why should they, they represent the interests of CX crew. Even when integration is mentioned we are told " that's fine, join at the bottom of our list". ( personally I think we have nothing to gain by integrating but it's galling none the less). So yes there are examples of the AOA screwing over KA pilots.

Supposedly we've been one company group since 2006.

Also

The DPA hasn't suddenly asked for staff travel equality. It has been every committees position since we were left out back in 07. This is not something new and previous AOA coms were aware. It's just that finally someone in management has recognized the disparity and corrected it.

For info KA has 470 pilots. 270 were employed before Cx bought KA. Of those 270 number 200 was employed 04, number 100 was 01 and number 1 was employed in 85. It's not exactly the vast invading hoards of your nightmares.

[Fac6]

Oasis

Don't worry Badair is famous on our fleet for being a total and utter tool, for the very uptight and bitter FO that he is :-)

[404 Titan]

I have it on very good authority from within the AOA that it was management that proposed the staff travel deal to the DPA at the last moment to try and sweeten what is a crap pay deal. It would appear that it may be a Swire objective to have a “Group Travel” policy rather than separate travel policies for the different groups.

It should also be pointed out that almost all KA ground staff are actually CX employees. That is why they get CX staff travel based on their DOJ.

If Swire intend to have a “Group Travel” policy it should be assumed that the same deal will be offered to CX employees on KA flights. As has been pointed out by giggerty, 100 pilots of the current KA pilot group were employed by KA prior to 2001. On the other hand about 1200 of the current CX pilot group were employed by CX prior to 2001. The granting of priority 25 staff travel to KA pilots on CX flight may not have a huge effect to CX pilots but the granting of priority 25 staff travel to CX pilots on KA flights will have a huge effect on KA pilots trying to staff travel on their own flights. Now extrapolate that out if all CX staff get the same thing. This isn’t a win for KA pilots at all. It is quite frankly an attempt by management to polish a turd.

[swh]

giggerty,

Your an idiot for picking your start date, how many tristars did KA fly to Taiwan, Malaysia, or China ? I know CX did a lot when they routes were given to them.

The made scramble to get slots in HKG has resulted in a large fleet growth in KA, give you a hint, time to command at CX is 5-8 years higher, pay is lower, 13th month does not appear, no travel fund, and $2000 bonus if you were not sick. Wanna jump on this Air China bus ?

You are so frig-gen short sighted, they are giving the employees SFA, selling off assets like you would not believe to Swire companies with unbreakable contracts that generate massive profits for Swire at the expense of CX/KA.

WHO IS THE FOOL ?

KA was purchased, not merged. They ARE a 100% CX SUBSIDIARY.

Good news is the forecast issued by the observatory talks between CX and CX staff is they will be offered priority 24 on CX and KA for staff, and 25 for companions. Naturally all based on DOJ CX. The forecast is only valid withing 5 decimeters of CX city reference point. The forecast is due to expire in good faith just before the talks in 2035.

:ooh::ooh::suspect::suspect::suspect:D:D:ok::ok::*:*:E:E:sad :sad::mad::mad:

[tsimbeit]

In January 1990, Cathay Pacific, Swire Group and CITIC Pacific acquired an 89 percent stake in the airline, with CITIC Pacific holding 38 percent; while the family of the airline's chairman Kuang-Piu Chao reduced their holding from 22 percent to 6 percent, with the remainder held by minor shareholders. The change of ownership saw Cathay Pacific transferring its Beijing and Shanghai routes to Dragonair, along with a Lockheed L-1011 TriStar on a lease basis.

That's TWENTY FOUR YEARS AGO!

[Gnadenburg]

404

Yes, so why all the fuss and conspiracy theories that the DPA has tried to shaft the AOA?

I think I know. And that's why my continual position has been to avoid any integration.

[broadband circuit]

And that's why my continual position has been to avoid any integration.

There are many arguments for & against integration, but whether you support it or not, the travesty is that we've got partial integration. Most KA ground staff are in fact CX. Not sure about KA cabin crew. And did someone post earlier that any KA pilot joining after the buyout is in effect CX staff??

[404 Titan]

Gnadenburg

There are some on both sides that quite frankly need to take a deep breath before posting here. I can assure you though that those at the very highest level of the AOA know that the DPA was offered this so called "sweetener" by management to try and get the pay offer over the line. The DPA didn't propose it. It is also a belief by some at the highest levels of the AOA that it is a Swire objective to have a "Group Staff Travel Policy". If this does come to fruition then the staff of the smaller airline in the the group will be shafted. In this case KA. My advise to KA pilots is don't be fooled by the shiny brochure. The devil is in the detail and if CX staff get priority 25 staff travel on KA flights, the majority of KA staff will get scr*wed. Maths unfortunately doesn't lie.