View Full Version : Lufthansa Pilots! Are you going to let this happen?

19th May 2002, 20:23
For all you Lufthansa pilots out there. You have probably heard that Privat Air will fly a BBJ from DUS to EWR, 5 times weekly, under contract for Lufthansa. Is your pilot union going to let this happen giving your flights away to a contract airline. Do you have pilots on furlough at all?
I am on furlough myself with a major airline, and I would hate to see somebody doing a job for my company that I am supposed to do.

19th May 2002, 21:35
A bit like GB flying for BA really!

19th May 2002, 21:58
.......except GB make money ;)

20th May 2002, 04:06
Hmmm....most airline pilots would not know much (as in NOTHING) about corporate flying....just why would it be desirable for LH line crews to fly this service?

20th May 2002, 04:40
411A, Job security is the reason. Who is going to be next to fly your routes for possible less money?
United and Avolar was the same issue! ALPA interfered and the corporate A320 was then manned by UA pilots. Besides, I don't see a difference between a corporate pilot and an airline pilot flying an airplane from DUS to EWR.

20th May 2002, 08:51
I have to agree with 411A - as this appears to be a new niche service for which Privat Air has the resources and Lufthansa does not. They make a profit where Lufthansa may make a loss, so using their own crew is not a problem.

In Europe we don't have all this fuss over scope, and this is in many ways a good thing, because routes that can never be profitable with the main airline CAN be profitable, make the main company money, and increase the network with a smaller subsidiary or partner.

Quite frankly it isn't taking Lufthansa jobs anyway as it is a new route, and why fuss about it when many of us have flown for subsidiaries in the past on the way up, or will fly for poeple such as Privat Air after retirement from the majors.

Good luck to Privat Air, a very well run and friendly company.

20th May 2002, 09:38
Lucifer, this is not a new route. It was a regular service for an A340 before 09/11 and was scrapped afterwards.

20th May 2002, 10:22

It's not like the GB franchise relationship with BA. GB pays BA so that GB can operate BA style services on routes that BA does not want to/cannot economically operate itself.

LH has contracted Private Air to run a specialist service with a specialist smallish long range aircraft (BBJ). I imagine that it is a fixed term, fixed price contract. If successful, and the passenger numbers increase to that which would fill a full size LH type trans atlantic aircraft, then LH would cancel the contract and do it themselves. If LH pilots are, by then, on strike - one presumes that Private Air will be given a long term contract, and Private Air will be able to name their price.

20th May 2002, 11:11

I only said a BIT like, and it is a bit like.

If you look at the thread on GB/BA you will see that it is rumoured at least that more BA work (even long haul) may be about to end up at GB.

I think that LH pilots need to beware, thin end of the wedge etc.

20th May 2002, 11:23
If the A340 could not make the route economical, then that suggests that my argument is indeed valid. If in the future they find that demand is picking up to larger levels, then there would truly be a case for asking why LH pilots are not flying it.

As I can see though, it is still a new niche service.

Bear in mind that PrivatAir do not operate anything larger that a 757, and they only have one of those, and there is unlikely to be much freight that can be placed on the BBJ extra to the pax and their kit due to the extra tanks.

20th May 2002, 12:02
So is this BBJ flight in addition to LH408 daily DUS/EWR by A340 , shown in the summer timetable, or does it replace it?:confused:

20th May 2002, 13:33
If the passengers simply want to get from A-B then a company like privatair is not the answer. If they want to do it with bells on then an airline style service may not necessarily be the answer either. It realy does depend on the client.
I work for a major schedule airline who have worked deals with private companies so that the service runs regardless of booked pax, the customer pays the costs plus a bit. Everybody is happy!
Surely Lufty could sort something like that out the system works, honest.

20th May 2002, 13:56
Replaces it chippy. A340 out, BBJ in.

20th May 2002, 14:38

Job security is fine - if you have a job
Do you know how much PrivatAir pays? You should, before you start the discussion.

@checkthrust, Kondorski
The A340 and the BBJ operate on the same flight number, the A340 flight was suspended after 9/11.
Besides that the BBJ flight is a new concept, it is what we all can read about in our magazines: A nonstop service with a smaller aircraft to (in future) new destinations.
I dont think you can compare a 3 class 260 seat A340 with a (single class) 48 seat Business class BBJ. This is a possible new market.


Next please keep in mind that PrivatAir does employ pilots for this new operation. Who else does employ in our current crisis after 9/11 ???

None of these jobless pilots would have been employed by LH for formal reasons:

- older than 32 years and 356 days = no LH job
- LH entry test failed = no second test for your LIFETIME
- no unrestricted access to German University = no LH job

How many Captains with thousands of hours of B737 experiance are younger than 33 years?

These formal rules for employment with LH are made from pilots and pilot unions! LH is forced to these rules by contract with the unions - these rules are not made by LH!

What kind of union is this that prohibits member pilots and possible future member pilots and colleagues the employment with the major German flag carrier?

We are all equal - are we?

All pilots hold the same licence, but
- not having the chance of employment due to age - how do you call this? Some are more equal?
- not having the chance of employment due to education - what is this? Don't these pilots have the same licence?
- not having a second chance for a test - do you never have a bad day and nothing runs well?

At least the first two points, age and education (not ability) - I call them discrimination - how do you call them?

I can only hope that PrivatAir is successful with this new kind of operation and they are opening more new routes with more new aircraft and continue employing more qualified and good pilots!

Good luck to them.


20th May 2002, 16:17
And what business is it of yours anyway, waverunner?

Maybe you should worry about your own situation, being on furlough from a major, as you say, rather than stirring someone else's pot.

Does this mean you won't accept a position with Privat Air, or have you been rejected and therefore have an axe to grind?

20th May 2002, 16:52
...not to mention the fact that UAL trashed the Avolar concept...wonder if the thought of very high priced UAL ALPA line crews had anything to do with it?:rolleyes:

20th May 2002, 17:01
I think there is cause for oncern here.......

As an example, for every four RJ's that United Express recieves the United looses one more mainline station.

The Bread and butter of most airlines are the business traveler. A lot of pilots might not know it, but many airlines book large numbers of seats weekly on scheduled flights.

It is a simple manner to scour the reservation system and look for block customers and then offer them the BBJ as an alternative.

Avolar at United would have done that. Surfed our res system and stold our bread and butter.

United is rapidly becoming a virtual airline. When I was a F/0 on the 747 out of JFK in the early nineties, we had 85 F/O's on the airplane. Great trips, a perfect month for me was a trip to Europe, a trip to South America, and a trip to Asia.

After 1 year after code sharing, we had 27 First Officers on the airplane at JFK.

United is content with selling tickets on the Deathstar Alliance or a fee for departure basis with the United Express, and would rather do that then operate its own airline.

This way, United buy no fuel, pay no pilots, put up with no flight attendents, and still makes a profit.

It is a very grievious situation here evolving in the US. What management is establishing are in fact Alter Ego airline to avoid current labor costs.

Those BBJ's and RJ operators of today, **willl** , in the future, no doubt operate 757/767 class aircraft.

20th May 2002, 17:37
I agree with FL´s post 100%...

20th May 2002, 18:03
DownIn3Green, I am worried about my own situation that's why I posted the topic. I am just thinking about fellow union pilots.
Ever heard of scope? That's the issue.
No offense to the PA guys.

Hand Solo
20th May 2002, 22:15
I think the Lufthansa union support this move on the basis that the DUS-EWR A340 isn't viable, there are no 737-700 rated pilots in LH to operate the BBJ and they don't have anything like an Airbus corporate jet config available in the near future. If they can fill a BBJ with high-profit passengers then why not, its probably better than having them disappear off to the states on Continental or United. The key is to ensure that this concept is a short term move only, and not the start of management cherry picking the lean but lucrative routes out of mainline flying.

21st May 2002, 05:15
Considering that LH has been operating LAX-AKL with the MD-11F for Air New Zealand for some time now, how could they not approve of this?:confused:

21st May 2002, 06:12
Thanks, konkordski!:)

21st May 2002, 11:46
No pilot at LH was furloughed after 911.

The FEs at LH-pax are in negotiations about severance, but since they´re bringing back the 742s, they might even fly again.

The furloughed contract-FEs at LH-Cargo were reinstated after intervention by the union.

Besides that... DLH is testing the waters for the BJ concept and DUS might just be the market.
LH currently does not have an A319 configured for this sort of business and the old 340-200s are being used elswhere.
Several A320s are still in storage - since the 1st quarter of last year, due to lack of crews (and FL: quit whining about the entry requirements - if you were "in", you´d have no problem at all with them, right?!)

The contract allows up to 6% of the SKO (seat kms offered) as LH-flights to be "outsourced".

Has anyone ever wondered, why Cityline (LH CRJ and Avro RJ operator) pilots managed to get one of the best contracts in the world for "regionals" a few weeks ago - without having to go on strike?...

Who will operate all those Dornier jets if/when they come as ordered by DLH??

Will the 70+ seat scope clause be questioned again??

Will two 742 freighters be sold and leased back to be operated by Air Atlanta, at a cost of ca. 500k Euros per aircraft p.a. more than with LH-Cargo crews - but at a contract termination notice time of only ca. 2 weeks???

It´s the same game at all major carriers.
The union is watching all the "creativity", don´t worry.

21st May 2002, 13:24
Can you please elaborate on Air Atlanta taking over freighters for LH. :confused:

21st May 2002, 15:33
re Air Atlanta:

One, or rather, "the scenario" to get two parked freighters back into biz was to sell them (don´t know to whom) and lease them back, whilst having them operated by Air Atlanta crews.

The advantage of this "deal" being the much greater "flexibility" (at an extra cost of ca. 500k € per ac p. a.).

In a memo Air Atlanta was described as having a much less (!!!) homogenous group of pilots (than DLH) - consisting of a "golden" core of well-paid pilots, some folks earning a little less (the "silver" group) and the "bronze" group on the outside, whom he compared to "quasi-freelancers" who can be "set free at two weeks notice"...

"Of course management would like to see a flexible in-house (Lufthansa Cargo) solution, but the numbers have to add up, blablabla..."

Basically everyone is seeing the currently huge market potential for us, but they´re scared [email protected] that GWB will pull some stunt on Saddam.

22nd May 2002, 09:15
Grüss dich Wonderbus

Good God, it was high time you stepped in !
Gents, I'd just like to remind you that LH are the last be given a lecture as to " Will you take that kind of donk " blabla ......... when they managed to get a 26 % raise a little than over a year ago with just 2 1/2 days of strike over a period of 3 weeks !!!
They do it german art ya know, discreet and efficient and for all I know this seems to be working wonders.
By the way Wonderbus, eure Sandwich smecken lecker, das muss sicherlich mit dem Senf zu tun haben !! Alles Gute.;)