Swiss 146 engine explodes at London City [Archive]

dsc810

27th Mar 2014, 19:08

Well of course they will grab their hand luggage
This has been gone over time and time again here.

Modern passengers are not stupid
Their hand luggage contains their most expensive and valuable/hard to replace stuff: and they know the compensation limits
They are not risking the hand baggage being returned to them somewhat later but curiously 'missing' some stuff from inside it or with some stuff now mysteriously 'broken'.
.....and then they will have to argue the toss endlessly with some insurance company about exactly when this happened and probably loose out in the end.

So provided the plane is not disintegrating around them they are going to grab their stuff and run.

MATELO

27th Mar 2014, 20:10

Modern passengers are not stupid

I seriously beg to differ on some occasions.

"Can planes land on clouds"?

"If the plane is on fire, can the pilot just not slow down so we can jump into the water gently"

"or fly upside down if the wheels are stuck down and wont go up"

oh yes... I beg to differ.

mocoman

27th Mar 2014, 20:51

I consider myself to be in the category of 'seasoned traveller' and I wouldn't hesitate to leave all my carry-on baggage in an evacuation situation.

I always keep my passport in a trouser pocket, along with my wallet and phone; everything else, computer, iPad, etc etc etc, is not that important to me and is also backed up somewhere else so is not to be worried about.

In fact, I'd probably get into a spot of bother in such circumstances because I would not suffer the stupidity of these people and that could involve physical action, especially if such people were blocking the aisle while getting things from the locker. :ugh:

We're not all muppets!
:ok:

lomapaseo

27th Mar 2014, 21:10

Passengers seem to have had a lot of time to evacuate and leave the location of the plane without any fire equipment to even have been called.

No wonder they took their hand baggage, time didn't seem to be of the essence.

Pretty good looking #4 engine.

I wonder what the real story was rather than the passenger interpretation?

ELondonPax

27th Mar 2014, 21:13

For those not familiar with the airport layout, it's about 200 metres from the Fire Station to that location.
Other photos on twitter do show the Fire service on scene, might just have been angle that the initial photo was taken from.

500N

27th Mar 2014, 21:17

mocoman

I agree and was going to post something similar.

Passport and wallet are with me anyway (and in future based on someone's suggestion on here, keys), the rest can leave.

And like you, I would get in trouble if someone was hesitating getting onto a slide "in a real emergency" because of a bag !

Re Passports, not sure what other countries are like but Aussie Passorts can be obtained very quickly in emergencies. I got a brand new one in 12 hours, albeit I had ID and old passport but the way it is set up (I asked), they can and will issue with less in emergencies.

Dimitri Cherchenko

27th Mar 2014, 21:39

20 minutes - «C était la panique totale dans l avion!» - Lecteurreporter (http://www.20min.ch/ro/lecteurreporter/story/-C-etait-la-panique-totale-dans-l-avion---17227979)

angels

27th Mar 2014, 21:47

lomapeso - You correctly add in words like, seem to have had lot of time. Time did' seem to be of the essence there are plenty of people who have died in the past because "everything seemed to be all right."

If any old bat or old fool is in the way of me exiting a potentially burning plane because ne/she's got pick up her duty free she'll get an almighty boot up the arse from me.

TxAggie94

27th Mar 2014, 21:58

I was not on the flight, so perhaps it is not fair for me to speak. But it seems to me that if the crew thought it pressing enough to deploy the slide, I should consider it pressing enough not to hold things up getting bags. And you are saying this is not uncommon?

500N

27th Mar 2014, 22:00

"But it seems to me that if the crew thought it pressing enough to deploy the slide,"

Exactly.

How long does it take for an explosion ?

mocoman

27th Mar 2014, 22:40

Yes you would. You're human.

Sorry, but wrong.

My day job frequently involves making split second decisions and taking action where serious injury and lives are potentially at stake.

In order to make such decisions in a timely manner I think about all possible scenarios and consider my reaction to those events prior to it being necessary; call it forward planning if you will, or even conditioning may be a better description.

Any situation, if practised frequently enough even if only as a thought experiment, can become 'human' nature.

:)

tdracer

27th Mar 2014, 22:44

I'm guessing "engine explodes" was a considerable exaggeration relative to what really happened.

Most likely an engine failure, surge, and aborted takeoff. The great balls of fire coming out both ends of an engine during a surge can be pretty dramatic, but it's a long way from an actual "engine explodes".

500N

27th Mar 2014, 22:54

Mocoman

The studies done that show military, police, emergency service type people do better in emergency type situations like plane crashes and have a higher survival rate.

The ability to process information fast and make a decision quickly and then act on that is important.

fr8tmastr

28th Mar 2014, 05:37

Simple solution, anyone who simply must have their bags must wait until everyone else is off prior to leaving aircraft.

If you find yourself blocking a row you must move to the next available empty row to wait to collect your bags.

That way if the plane is in fact in any danger, only those that feel their bags are more important than their own, or more importantly anyone else's lives will be left on the aircraft.

Perhaps a locking mechanism could be developed for the overheads to ensure compliance with this.

I certainly understand the need to keep your bag when traveling, but not at the expense of some 5 year old kid and his mother.

Just because you don't see anything wrong from your 5a window doesn't meant there is not an inferno just outside 32 f.

MmeKitten

28th Mar 2014, 06:53

This is the flight we take v frequently. I know that the risk of doing so didn't change but accidents tend to focus the mind

So a question to all - how would I get my precious cargo put in an emergency?
By precious cargo I mean the baby and the toddler and not my bag by te way

I already make sure I know the exits and Mr Kitten insists I count the rows to exit and recall I am not in the car

Flyingmole

28th Mar 2014, 07:06

Last thing on hand baggage. I travel with a £1500 laptop with massive amounts of data. OK, I do have back-up elsewhere, but if it a small aircraft that I have to exit in a hurry and the hull is intact my instinct is that the hassle of taking said laptop is considerably less than that of leaving & losing Call me selfish, but it would be my split-second decision.

ian16th

28th Mar 2014, 07:35

Anybody that even thinks it is OK to mess around with hand baggage has obviously forgotton about this:

British Airtours Flight 28M - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airtours_Flight_28M)

Maybe there is now a generation of travellers too young to know about it.

Al Murdoch

28th Mar 2014, 08:20

Flyingmole, generally speaking, if we order an evacuation, it is absolutely the last resort. It is not a decision that is taken lightly because we are well aware that even when the fuselage is 2 feet off the ground, people will be injured: particularly children, the elderly, the disabled and the infirm. So there has to be a significant risk of you dying in the cabin for us to decide to evacuate. So my advice is if you are told to get off, then just do it - forget your frigging laptop and yeah, you are selfish. And stupid.

Tandemrotor

28th Mar 2014, 08:25

My guess?

Engine stall or surge at full power. Lots of bangs and flames. Engines all retarded to idle. Stall/surge successfully resolved. But some muppet passenger who was probably talking loudly, or reading his broadsheet all through the safety briefing because he/she's an oh so frequent traveller, decided they'd seen enough to panic, and opened a door. After rummaging through the overhead locker first obviously!

I'll be amazed if that's not the scenario we're dealing with here!

Any passengers thinking about taking this sort of action in future. Do be aware that in a 'crew controlled' evacuation, the engines will be shut down (switched off) BEFORE you are COMMANDED to evacuate. The reason being that jet engines have a very real capacity to suck people right through the shredders and furnace before spitting what's left out the back.

Just do exactly as you are told by the professionals rather than panic. Don't turn a non-event into a death by your utter stupidity! And any IDIOT attempting to open an overhead locker during an evacuation down slides when I'm in the cabin is looking for BIG trouble!

WATCH THE BL00DY SAFETY VIDEO/DEMO FOR THE SAKE OF THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU EVEN IF YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOUR OWN LIFE!!!!!!!

ELondonPax

28th Mar 2014, 08:28

There was a short clip on the BBC London news last evening. People seem to leave with commendable speed, a different impression from the still pictures posted on twitter.
The relevant footage starts at about 6m20sec on this item.
BBC iPlayer - BBC London News: 27/03/2014 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03yvtr8/BBC_London_News_27_03_2014/)
(Might not play outside of UK)

His dudeness

28th Mar 2014, 09:16

if we order an evacuation, it is absolutely the last resort

Hmmmm, looking at the pics, I don´t see any smoke or the like.

Sometimes I feel I´d be better to wait and check. The WX looks fine to me and I think the tower should have been able to see the airplane and thus give valuable info to the crew.

I´m sure the crew followed SOPs, still...there is 3 minor injuries now and IF N.4 would have spilled parts, fuel and fire, then an evac to the right side seems wrong to me and could have resulted in more injury.

Q for 146 drivers: can one see the engines from the FD ?

philip2412

28th Mar 2014, 09:30

I would never ever grab my hand baggage if i`m holding up people un an emergency,never,
but
i always have a rucksack ( 40X30X20 ) with me and when i am in row 40,i have to wait for people in front of me to leave their seats,maybe seconds,but enough time for me to take my rucksack with me.

Capt Claret

28th Mar 2014, 09:43

But some muppet passenger who was probably talking loudly, or reading his broadsheet all through the safety briefing because he/she's an oh so frequent traveller, decided they'd seen enough to panic, and opened a door.

Just how does a muppet on an aeroplane with no mid cabin underwing exits, open a door? Are you really suggesting the cabin crew just sat there and allowed that to happen?

As for evacuating on the starboard side, it's entirely possible and reasonable, that the tech crew on hearing an explosive sound shut the engines down and ordered an evacuation. In many airlines, it is up to the cabin crew to look out the door window, assess any visible impediment to opening the door (smoke, fire, water, obstruction) and if deemed clear, open the door and thus deploy the slide.

If the explosive sound was just a compressor stall, and there's no visible damage to the cowling in the photo at the start of the thread, then why not evacuate from the starboard side. Finally, at a guess, the CC probably wouldn't all agree on which side the explosive sound came from and would therefore rely on what they could see.

Tempestnut

28th Mar 2014, 10:36

DSC810 #13Thank god there is at least some one with a realistic attitude left. You are right, and whilst we can celebrate "The Darwin's" every year, most people on that aircraft would have been intelligent enough to sum up the situation for themselves and realise that it would be better to grab their hand luggage rather than leave it and almost guarantee they loss it or have it damaged. If the Airlines and carpers on this forum want to stop this behaviour then they need to provide a more transparent process for returning the hand luggage in a timely manner (within the hour guaranteed depending of coarse on the size of the aircraft) without the aid of jobs worth and red tape excuses.

Aluminium shuffler

28th Mar 2014, 11:13

Tempestnut, while I agree that luggage should be returned promptly, intact and complete after such events, and that doing so may help reduce morons' temptation to evacuate with their baggage, your comments condone this irresponsible and utterly selfish behaviour.

I believe that the problem is now so widespread that ICAO needs to secure mandatory prosecution of all and any passengers who do this. There are already laws in place that would cover this: "failure to comply with legal commands or instructions from crew" and "endangering the safe conduct of the flight", amongst others, and these have a two year custodial sentence in many countries.

If passengers are going to endanger others because of the inconvenience of losing the data on a laptop which has been backed up remotely, to quote and incredibly stupid example, then these idiots deserve to be locked away for as long as the law permits.

Passengers have no idea about what is happening inside or outside the aircraft, of how things work and of what risks exist. Crew don't always get it right, and the SWA pax at La Guardia were right to initiate their own evacuation, but to ignore safety demonstrations and decide that their own luggage is more valuable than others' lives is criminal and should be treated as such. I would love to see an absolutely brutal crack down on this behaviour.

Lord Spandex Masher

28th Mar 2014, 11:18

Q for 146 drivers: can one see the engines from the FD ?

On a
-100 (RJ70) 1.5 engines.
-200 (RJ85) 1.0 engines.
-300 (RJ100) 0.5 engines.

- ish. Depending how hard you try.

Tandemrotor

28th Mar 2014, 11:18

Capt Claret
Just how does a muppet on an aeroplane with no mid cabin underwing exits, open a door? Are you really suggesting the cabin crew just sat there and allowed that to happen?
It would seem you are blissfully unaware that precisely what I described has already occurred on this type before. Anyone familiar with the history of these aircraft will know it was possibly even this airframe!
it's entirely possible and reasonable, that the tech crew on hearing an explosive sound shut the engines down and ordered an evacuation.
Are you REALLY a professional pilot? If you think that's 'reasonable' you need to think again! That's absolutely NOT what we do round here!
If the explosive sound was just a compressor stall, and there's no visible damage to the cowling in the photo at the start of the thread, then why not evacuate from the starboard side. Finally, at a guess, the CC probably wouldn't all agree on which side the explosive sound came from and would therefore rely on what they could see.
It just gets worse!:ugh: You clearly operate on a different planet to me.

cockney steve

28th Mar 2014, 14:30

So, After the loud bangs, flame and smoke display, the FD shuts down.... the Pax sit in a silent, "dead" aorcraft and the order is given to evacuate.....I,m somewhere in the middle, Ican neither seeany smoke,or flame through the 2 open doors, nor from the windows.....the queues are shuffling towards the slides, it's apparent there is ano urgency to clear, by those already on the ground.....I assess that it will take ~30 seconds to recover my valuables, I also assess the evacuation was an over-reaction...(distinct absence of * Police*, Fire Appliances, ambulances, ground-marshalls) and i'm now 4 paces behind the person in front.....butAluminium shuffler would have me hung, drawn and quartered, because someone blindly followed an escape-routine which was a total over-reaction.

A simple surge-situation now involves all the reparations, ferry flight, cost of new slides, time out of service.......

Where there are real and urgent needs for evacuation, I'd be there with the CC, snatching bags and launching the owners onto the slides..... but this wasn. t the case....a passive, silent aircraft...you really think all the Pax are so thick they can't work it out?......OH! so it might explode in another ball of fire? real clever to deploy slides on the same side then!...YES, I'm certain the FD would know which side the malfunction was on, and where the prevailing wind was from hint...turn the a/c , if necessary, so the flames blow away from the pax-area, THEN shut down the rest of the donks.... that saves a damned sight more lives than leaving bags behind when there's no urgency.

just my opinion, of course.:).

Mr Optimistic

28th Mar 2014, 14:37

It's all very well for the professionals to carp on about hand luggage but it is largely a problem of the industry's own making. What is wrong with putting luggage in the hold, downsizing the over-large overheads and freeing us pax from watching the idiots trying to lift their over sized bags above their heads and cc quietly fuming at the disorganised free for all of it.

Trossie

28th Mar 2014, 16:58

Aluminium shuffler,
I believe that the problem is now so widespread that ICAO needs to secure mandatory prosecution of all and any passengers who do this. There are already laws in place that would cover this: "failure to comply with legal commands or instructions from crew" and "endangering the safe conduct of the flight", amongst others, and these have a two year custodial sentence in many countries.

If passengers are going to endanger others because of the inconvenience of losing the data on a laptop which has been backed up remotely, to quote and incredibly stupid example, then these idiots deserve to be locked away for as long as the law permits.

Passengers have no idea about what is happening inside or outside the aircraft, of how things work and of what risks exist. Crew don't always get it right, and the SWA pax at La Guardia were right to initiate their own evacuation, but to ignore safety demonstrations and decide that their own luggage is more valuable than others' lives is criminal and should be treated as such. I would love to see an absolutely brutal crack down on this behaviour.

Absolutely spot on!!

Except for one point: Why limit it to only two years custody? Even more would be appropriate for the selfish moron who feels that his poxy laptop is worth more than the life of the people that he is obstructing in order to retrieve it!

No matter how clever you think you are and no matter how many times you think that you've heard it before, pay attention to the safety demo. For take-off and landing have your passport and wallet in your pockets, have your shoes on and fastened, and have sensible clothing for the first 5 minutes or so outside. When you are told to 'Evacuate', don't try to be clever and second-guess the situation, just get the **** out as fast as you can!! Someone with a lot more knowledge of the situation than you has made that decision. The only people that the above doesn't apply to is infants; once they have their own seats they should be introduced to this process.

One or two well publicised prosecutions should be enough to make those selfish morons start to pay proper attention and act sensibly.

There are a lot of people putting an enormous amount of effort into making this form of transport so very, very safe; those who wilfully chose to go against safety instructions (like retrieve a laptop) and potentially endanger the carefully reasoned process should be prosecuted. No more trying to be clever, if you want to travel on the safest form of transport, then when those who know more than you about it perceive there to be sufficient risk, just shut up and do as you have been told.

Tourist

28th Mar 2014, 17:20

Just for the record, If I'm standing waiting for people in front of me to get out, I see no fire then I'm probably going to take my bag.

I also have occasionally broken the speed limit whilst driving.

That is equally selfish in that it puts others at risk for personal gain.

Aluminium Shuffler. and other outraged buggers. Have you ever been done for speeding? If so, then back in your box you sanctimonious gits.

I also drive a car that uses a ridiculous amount of fuel for my entertainment, thus destroying the environment causing untold misery for future generations.
I guess I'm a bad person.

MichaelKPIT

28th Mar 2014, 17:31

I am amazed every time this argument comes up! I was cabin crew for two years, my wife has twenty years in with another airline, and we were both told in training that when you're on a passenger seat, be it for pleasure, for business or deadheading, in or out of uniform, put your book down and afford your colleagues the courtesy of listening to the demo. You're not going to learn anything from it (we can recite those things verbatim!) but that act may just prompt the person sitting next to you to do the same. (Trust me, we actually do fly more than you.)

If it comes to an evacuation (and we all hope it doesn't) Trossie sums it up perfectly above: Someone with a lot more knowledge of the situation than you has made that decision. Get out! Leave everything behind and get out. If you're messing about with your bag you're slowing things down. With cooperation and all exits usable we can get you all out in 90 seconds or less.

When you reach the bottom of the slide, if you have two hands free you can help others not blessed with the same degree of mobility as you. (And I don't mean with their carry ons!) We all know that in an evac the probability of injuries is high. People fall - it happens. Have two hands free and without endangering yourself be ready to help someone who may have fallen to prevent a build up behind.

I will concede one point though. While the airlines continue to charge for checked baggage they are driving more and more into the cabin as carry on.

bbrown1664

28th Mar 2014, 17:36

Tourist, that's all well and good of you not to hold anyone up whilst you rummage through the bins but whet then? Then you (maybe not you but others definitely) hold the bag in such a way that it takes up standing room that someone could have used thus preventing them from getting out for a couple more seconds as your bag makes its way through the exit.
What happens when you drop it and people start tripping over it causing everyone behind to get stuck and die from smoke inhalation?
What happens when someone else with an even bigger bag sees you taking your bag out the bin and thinks they can do the same but holds people up?
What happens when the smouldering fire that you couldn't see because you were on the wrong side of the cabin suddenly erupts and those few seconds delay you caused mean a couple of people die?

Selfish is all it is. If the crew say get out now and leave stuff behind, guess why they say it?

tdracer

28th Mar 2014, 17:45

If the explosive sound was just a compressor stall, and there's no visible damage to the cowling in the photo at the start of the thread, then why not evacuate from the starboard side.

If the explosive sound was just a compressor stall and there's no visible damage, WHY EVACUATE? Evacuating an intact, undamaged airplane is just asking for trouble. :ugh:

A A Gruntpuddock

28th Mar 2014, 17:48

"hassle of taking said laptop is considerably less than that of leaving & losing"

But if you stay and die as a result, then you have lost it anyway, as well as everything you ever owned or might have owned in the future.

Jump Complete

28th Mar 2014, 18:04

I have today just completed a Fire and Smoke refresher course. In the classroom part of it, we watched the video showing what happened during the Manchester Airtours disaster. Watch that then tell me its acceptable to delay, even for a second, to getting your precious f£&@ing laptop. It's not sanctimoniousness, it's a matter of life and death. And, Tourist, you are not a bad person for driving a big car and I have been known to speed occasionally too, but you are an arrogant arse for thinking you know better than the professionals responsible for your safety.

Tourist

28th Mar 2014, 18:13

Jump Complete

"I have been known to speed occasionally too"

"but you are an arrogant arse for thinking you know better than the professionals responsible for your safety"

Oh the irony

DaveReidUK

28th Mar 2014, 18:20

One or two well publicised prosecutions should be enough to make those selfish morons start to pay proper attention and act sensibly.Absolutely.

And while we're at it, a couple of prosecutions of any thieving gits who subequently liberate high-value items that have been left behind by those passengers who have exercised responsibility and consideration and left their carry-ons in the locker.

Aluminium shuffler

28th Mar 2014, 18:21

It's a shame that professional pilots are not as clairvoyant as Cokney Steve or Tourist, who seem to know by divine inspiration when to ignore emergency instructions. In addition to the custodial sentence, perhaps a lifetime ban on flying with any airline would also be appropriate. For those two, and others making similar arguments, it's a shame they can't be identified by the ISPs and banned now before they do kill another passenger.

When things go wrong, every split second makes the difference. I suggest the pair of you have a look for footage of the Chinese 737 that went up at Okinawa. That was only half full. Imagine twice the number of passengers, but half the exit rate because of people clogging up the aisle and exits with hld alls and backpacks.

An evacuation may or may not have been warranted in this case. I'm not going t second guess the crew - none of us should do that because we don't know what information they had at the time. But evacuations are not initiated lightly, and each should be treated as the utmost emergency. Ill-informed second guessing and selfish disobedience by greedy passengers is a massive threat to life. Perhaps, since it seems to be so deliberate rather than panic induced, as demonstrated by our respondents above, it should be treated as attempted murder?

Una Due Tfc

28th Mar 2014, 18:23

The best solution IMHO is mandate an automatic locking mechanism for the overhead bins linked to the fasten seatbelt sign, with a manual override the CC can use in cases where somebody has left medication or whatever inside.

The only people qualified to decide how serious the situation is are sitting in the flight deck with a headset on. What if it was an APU fire? Pax wouldn't have a clue. Just get up and get the :mad: off the airplane, helping your fellow pax do the same along the way.

NutLoose

28th Mar 2014, 18:24

Think of it this way, what if your bag contains your duty free and that spills out at the bottom of the slide breaking and puncturing the slide or injuring those following you?

Aluminium shuffler

28th Mar 2014, 18:29

Una Due Tfc, absolutely, or another example would be the same 737 burn-out where the pax would initially have been unable to see the fire start on the gear. Some did take bags in that event, but not most and they were lucky with having a low pax count.

Incidentally, for those criticising the crew for not being outside marshalling the passengers away in a safe direction, they were still inside getting the morons and their bags out - the crew have to get everyone else out before leaving, whether all of those passengers deserve the help or not. As for the lack of fire crews, they don't arrive the instant the problem arises, but if you have a method of time travel that allows emergency services to react and accident site as the event occurs, I'm sure you can make a lot of money from it.:ugh:

Tandemrotor

28th Mar 2014, 18:53

Tourist

Having reviewed a little of your posting history, I am ashamed to have to concede you may possibly be a pilot of some description..

Doesn't stop you being an arrogant ignorant and stupid tw@t though!

Jump Complete

28th Mar 2014, 18:54

Tourist; I see the point you're trying to make (about speeding) but I do think there IS a difference between drifting over the limit on an open road (which is what I'm talking about) and second guessing the crew who certainly know more about the situation than you, and may DIE because they are on the aircraft just that bit longer trying to get muppets like you off. Think about it, no matter how often you fly, you are unlikely to experience a situation like this. Lets be clear, if the crew order an emergency evacuation, it will only because it has been assessed as potentially life threatening to stay onboard a moment longer than necessary. We will call for an emergency evacuation knowing that people will get hurt but that it is the lesser of two evils. In that context, tell me again how inconvenient it will be to loose your laptop?

Sunnyjohn

28th Mar 2014, 18:55

Two points:
1 - How many people have been killed by failing to leave their cabin bags behind during an evacuation?

2 - The only way to really solve the problem is for ICAO to mandate that the only items that may be brought into the cabin are hand/shoulder bags - no cabin bags and no use of the overhead lockers, handbags to be of a specified size and kept with the passenger.

Mr Optimistic

28th Mar 2014, 18:58

Passengers in the cabin, luggage in the hold. Easy.

edmundronald

28th Mar 2014, 19:01

The stuffed carryon problem has got out of hand

People stuff their carryons because they cannot get insurance replacement

They cannot get insurance replacement because the loss ratio is sky-high

The loss ratio is sky high because the industry has given "security" and baggage handlers a license to steal. Not to speak of all the pickpockets who congregate around the X-ray devices where they can get at the valuables most easily.

Fix the above, and I'll be glad to get aboard a plane in a paper kimono, with just an ipad and my passport and credit cards. The camera set, computer etc can go in the hold. Most pro photographers I know transport at least $100K of equipment. With a 1% loss rate, that means you would "lose" it once every year if you take two flights a week.

Rather than threaten the paying customers, why not threaten the staff whose outrageous behavior is causing the runaway handbag issue - or would you pilots accept finding that half the instruments have been stolen out of your cockpit, and the fuel indicators have been messed with so your tanks are half empty?

500N

28th Mar 2014, 19:06

I do tend to agree that the airlines have been a big factor in this.

Lower bag weights in holds.
Slow getting bags afterwards
Theft from bags in holds
Theft of goods after a crash
Bigger OH Bins.

Blondie2005

28th Mar 2014, 19:08

"Just for the record, If I'm standing waiting for people in front of me to get out, I see no fire then I'm probably going to take my bag."

I have not been in an aircraft fire but I have been in a flat when a fire started. I have seen with my own eyes, and smelt with my own nostrils, how it's the smoke that gets you, not the fire. And you have seconds. Oh OK, minutes if you like - two or three minutes tops. I've no problem if you want to play chicken with your own life by retrieving your bag, but you cannot do that without risking others, which you have no right to do.

Mr Optimistic

28th Mar 2014, 19:20

Logical arguments are fine. Judgements are fine, but we must recognise how real people behave in real situations.

good egg

28th Mar 2014, 19:23

Sooooooo, heard a lot of stuff on here.
Is there much/any evidence of personal items being pilfered/stolen from aircraft that have had to evacuate??
Concrete evidence, from YOUR experience, not second hand ("I had a friend who...")
As I say, just curious.....

500N

28th Mar 2014, 19:24

"Just for the record, If I'm standing waiting for people in front of me to get out, I see no fire then I'm probably going to take my bag.""

Like the bloke on QF32 ?

From memory didn't one of the CC take the bag and throw it across the cabin when the passenger didn't comply with instructions ?????

phiggsbroadband

28th Mar 2014, 20:24

There is one further reason why all the doors were opened; It creates a through draught of breathable air in the case of a fire.
The Manchester aircraft had both its back doors closed, and that was the region of maximum fatalities.

Ooh, and I think those who are really 'Professional' would want to be the last to leave the plane, after making sure no-one was left stuck in their seat.

RobertS975

28th Mar 2014, 20:35

Having never been on a 146, I have no idea how large the overhead bins are. But I suspect that the standard roll aboard bags need to be gate checked like a CRJ. So it is entirely possible that people simply exited the bag with stuff that was either on their lap or at their feet. Maybe in some instances, taking it actually helps the person sitting next to you avoid tripping over it?

Super VC-10

28th Mar 2014, 20:44

For those intent on taking their cary-on luggage with them. British Airtours Flight 28M was mentioned earlier. I'd like to go back a bit further.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Jane_Harrison

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC_Flight_712

Pay particular attention to the bit about Katriel Katz.

MichaelKPIT

28th Mar 2014, 20:56

"Ooh, and I think those who are really 'Professional' would want to be the last to leave the plane, after making sure no-one was left stuck in their seat."

No! They don't WANT to be. What they WANT is to get as far away from the aeroplane as possible. What they WANT is to save themselves. What they WANT is to go home that night and hug their kids. What they DO is stand there, yelling commands, coordinating the evacuation and getting bloody frustrated at people who waste time (their own and ultimately the crews') by dragging their bags and clobber to the exit, only to stand there in dull surprise, wondering how they're going to get themselves plus luggage down the slide!

flight_mode

28th Mar 2014, 20:58

RobertS
Swiss usually manage fit a full load of pax and their carry-on in the cabin but its a tight squeeze especially if your seated under the wing. I travel frequently between Zurich and City and can tell you the 146 is usually rammed full of pax with jackets, overcoats, laptops, briefcases, trollies, ridiculously oversized umbrellas and shopping bags galore.

500N

28th Mar 2014, 21:07

"by dragging their bags and clobber to the exit, only to stand there in dull surprise, wondering how they're going to get themselves plus luggage down the slide!"

:ok:

And when they hit the concrete at a higher velocity than normal because of the extra weight of the bag and not being able to prepare for "landing", no wonder people get injured.

And in regards to your first part, :ok:, takes courage to stand and wait.

NutLoose

28th Mar 2014, 23:53

Personally I'd ban duty free booze from aircraft luggage, you have the injury possibility from flying bottles in a crash, fire risk, extra fuel burn etc, sell it at the departure airport by all means, but make it a voucher redeemable at your destination.

edmundronald

29th Mar 2014, 03:09

Remind me again, what was the cause of the evacuation? An uncontained engine failure?

RobertS975

29th Mar 2014, 03:51

500N, heavier objects do not fall faster... Galileo demonstrated that 400 years ago in Pisa. Makes the landing clumsier, I agree.

Shed-on-a-Pole

29th Mar 2014, 04:21

Interesting to note so-called aviation professionals baying for lengthy "custodial sentences" to be imposed upon passengers unfortunate enough to be caught up in a terrifying evacuation situation. Increasingly we see media witch-hunts and public vendettas in pursuit of "revenge" sentences against aircrew, marine crew, bus / train drivers, ATC staff etc who have the misfortune to be involved in an accident. I strongly believe that a decent society should resist this lust for revenge punishments unless true criminal activity (eg. drunkenness, drug-abuse) is a causal factor in the accident.

However, if instead we as an industry advocate an environment in which Captain Hitler of Pol Pot Airways campaigns to have his panicked PASSENGERS incarcerated for picking up a bag … well, what chance has common sense got where aircrew arrests / charges are concerned? Do you really want a vindictive society in which aircrew and passengers lobby to see each other jailed following tragic accidents? Think about what you are saying, and be very careful what you wish for.

Frequent_Flyer

29th Mar 2014, 08:07

Hi guys and girls!
I used to be cabin crew for SWISS, and have deadheaded or flown privately on this 4-engine aircraft which is lovingly known as the "Jumbolino". It's quite narrow inside and when it is max PAX (which on London flights it usually is) then it is already tight to get through during boarding. I can't imagine what it was like during evacuation when everyone got up AND took their luggage out! Surely there were elbows and bags going into each other's ribs! However, until they REALLY understand the imminent danger of an evacuation, they will not abandon their bags. The "90 secs" rule is something they just don't (want to) grasp. Perhaps it should be part of the in-flight video: "Remember, in the case of an evacuation, you have exaclty 90 seconds before we blow up." Lol.:p
Also, hats off to my ex.colleagues at SWISS: I now they are very serious about safety and did an excellent job in the cockpit and cabin to keep everyone safe!

joy ride

29th Mar 2014, 08:18

The problem is that the airlines want as much as possible of the cargo space free for profitable freight, and for many passengers this now means that the more they can get in the cabin the less they have to pay in surcharges. If they CAN grab their bags they will. The BCs might not be keen on smaller overhead lockers as that would cut freight capacity.

Perhaps corporate bean counters should admit to some responsibility for this behaviour.

Yeah I know, "dream on"!

Al Murdoch

29th Mar 2014, 08:23

At the lower cost end of the market, it's nothing to do with freight, because they don't carry any. It's about reducing airport service costs and time on the ground. Bags in the hold take time and money to load and unload.

joy ride

29th Mar 2014, 08:33

Ah! Time is money, so BCs and airport/airline efficiency DO play a part in this bag-grab behaviour.

ShyTorque

29th Mar 2014, 09:05

This airline travel sounds far too dangerous for my liking. They treat you like a criminal, take half your stuff off you then charge you a fortune to buy exactly the same things, herd you like cattle, cram you into seat next to some fat sweaty bloke, the engines blow to smithereens, then you go to jail for getting off in a hurry.

Happy holidays, chaps.

Nemrytter

29th Mar 2014, 09:51

And when they hit the concrete at a higher velocity than normal because of the extra weight of the bag Time for a refresher in how gravity works? I doubt air drag will have much of an effect when jumping a few meters.:}

Tourist

29th Mar 2014, 09:57

Fortunately, during my life I have spent time and effort remaining fit, strong and healthy.

The result of this is that I am likely to be sprightly when exiting the burning aircraft.

Some people have led sedentary lives. They are fat and unfit. They will take much longer to exit the aircraft. Probably longer than me whilst collecting my bag.

Their selfishness in not maintaining an acceptable fitness level shows astonishing arrogance.
Their tardiness in vacating the aircraft will undoubtedly lead to deaths in the event of an evacuation being required.

I vote we ban fatties from air transport.

People such as myself may slow things down because we may collect our bags.
Fatties will, thus the only safe option is to ban them.:)

Next, children and the disabled....

deptrai

29th Mar 2014, 10:28

evacuation was ordered from the flight deck, according to media reports of pax accounts. In the absence of more credible sources, this seems likely. No need to second-guess if it should or should not have been ordered, as long as we obviously know close to nothing, and don't know what the crew knew. Four people were lightly bruised, and got medical help on site. I see nothing highly unusual, and all I assume at this time is - job well done, by the pilots, cabin crew, emergency services and atc.

ShyTorque

29th Mar 2014, 10:52

Tourist, I say let fatties fly. It's useful to have something to tread on when you're skipping over the seat backs with your hold all. ;)

philip2412

29th Mar 2014, 10:59

Una due tfc,

in that case you will find a lot of people needing surprisingley their medicine from the overhead lockers.

JamesGV

29th Mar 2014, 11:54

This "...and don't forget to collect your bag as you evacuate" is becoming a bit of a habit it would seem.

Asiana 214 anyone ? Lessons still not learnt !

Skipness One Echo

29th Mar 2014, 12:26

Time for a refresher in how gravity works?
Momentum as the component of mass x velocity is increased so the force at the end of the slide is greater, which means anything you hit at the end is more painful.

EDDNHopper

29th Mar 2014, 13:51

shed-on-a-pole,

spot-on! :ok:

Pax WILL grasp their belongings, blame them or not.

Lord Spandex Masher

29th Mar 2014, 14:47

Momentum as the component of mass x velocity is increased so the force at the end of the slide is greater, which means anything you hit at the end is more painful.

Except the sticky patch (oooerr missus) slows you down before you hit the ground. I've tried it, proper wedgie.

llondel

29th Mar 2014, 19:41

A couple of days ago I heard an account of someone on a flight where they lost an engine on take-off. It was supposed to be a long flight, so presumably had a lot of fuel. The briefing apparently included explicitly pointing out that if you stopped to get your bag on evacuation then not only might you die, but so might everyone else waiting behind you. Nothing like spelling it out, and probably giving the passengers behind an incentive to shove people out of the way if they tried it.

However it was noted (and it was a woman telling the tale) that 'carry-on baggage' didn't appear to include women's handbags/purses because they all took them. To be fair, most of them probably already had their purses surgically attached so there was most likely no delay.

Laarbruch72

29th Mar 2014, 21:49

Tourist's posts on this subject suggest that he quite fancies himself as PPRuNe's resident Jeremy Clarkson, which let's face it is not something any rational person should be aspiring to. He also seems to be very much enjoying the reaction to his stupid posts so do bear that in mind.

S.o.S.

29th Mar 2014, 22:11

This thread was moved here from R&N, because the discussion moved towards the behaviour of pax in the evacuation.

I'm not interested in hearing about how good some might be at getting out or others telling them what they think they might be. You both know that we discuss the TOPIC and that is one that has been discussed here before. So, if there is more squabbling across the aisle - this thread will get parked on a remote stand.

Octopussy2

31st Mar 2014, 08:53

I take this flight fairly frequently (last time was 19 March). I used to be a very nervous flyer and I really do watch the safety brief every single time etc etc.

I'm trying to think what I would have done on that flight - my handbag and laptop bag were under the seat in front of me (nothing in the bins). I can't exclude that I wouldn't have taken my handbag (probably acting on "automatic pilot"). I think I almost certainly would not have taken the laptop.

For me, stopping to get stuff out of the bins would be unthinkable, and I suspect I'd have shouted at someone who did.

But I suspect I'd be guilty of taking the handbag and consequently wouldn't have both hands free going down the slide (a good point raised by someone earlier).

Rwy in Sight

31st Mar 2014, 11:36

I am not sure if it deserves a new thread but I am curious to know what one considers essential to have once outside the aircraft and where to put them so as to have rapid access to them without delaying the evacuation. I think radeng had a question few years back but a fresh perspective might be intersting.

ExXB

31st Mar 2014, 12:10

Does anybody have any first-hand (or even second) knowledge of how long it takes to reacquaint passengers with their (left onboard) hand baggage? Are there any processes/procedures in place?

My gut instinct tells me that it could be some time, hours, days or even weeks. I can't see this being a priority.

But if I was fairly confident of getting my stuff in a couple of hours, max, I'd be more likely to follow instructions and leave it behind.

In my case (pun not intended) it is not knowing how long it's going to be that would affect my decisions. Don't forget the airline told me not to put any (long list) valuables, medicine etc in my checked bag. I'd be a lot more comfortable keeping all that stuff with me.

PAXboy

31st Mar 2014, 19:42

Good question ExXB.

I agree Rwy in Sight, that radeng did give a strong contribution the last time we discussed this topic.

For myself, my jacket will have:

Wallett
Passport
Mobile (cell) phone
24 hrs medication (if relevant at the time)

With those, I can do most of what is needed. I would put my jacket on for warmth as it might be 24 hrs and if the machine IS on fire, that's the end of my case!

Shoes: I always wear modern boots (ankle lenth) that have soft sides and simply untie the laces to let me feet swell but I would not have to waste time looking for them. If I'm asleep horizontaly, I have taken my boots off but it's anyone's guess if any of us will have time to gather ourselves before impact. But this thread is about runway evacuations and I always have my boots on and laced until the cruise and then from the top of descent. No point in running across tarmac onto rough ground in socks. Again, it may be 24hrs before I get my case, if ever.

The only problem is that, given limits to phone battery life, I would need to find a spare charger (I would have cash and credit cards) but I could send messages to those who needed to know of the delay. There would also be enough juice to take a Selfie as I run away from the machine, showing others carrying their luggage for me to post in PPruNe. :ok:

HamishMcBush

31st Mar 2014, 19:54

Don't the cabin crew at the head of each emergency slide stop Pax from taking belongings such as bags down the slide? Perish the thought that I'd ever need to leave a plane in a hurry, but my life is more important than, yes, even my camera and lenses (and the bag itself)

jimmybr

31st Mar 2014, 20:30

Anyone blocking mine and anybody else's exit from the plane in an evacuation would be getting a firm push onto the seats out of the way. Find it amazing that people value their laptop more than the lives of over a hundred people on board a plane :ugh:

The simple solution to the problem of people messing about getting bags in an evacuation is get rid of the overhead lockers, job done. The ones that don't contain the cabin crew's emergency equipment that is. Also reduces the security queue.

To do this successfully though there would have to be major improvements in baggage handling as at the moment I wouldn't trust them to get a piece of bubble wrap to the destination unharmed. Anything I can't afford to lose goes in the cabin, that said though, without doubt it would be getting left behind if I heard the words evacuate!

PAXboy

31st Mar 2014, 22:06

Human nature being what it is, when our own life is at risk? We tend to forget everyone other than our self and our closest.

Gibon2

1st Apr 2014, 06:06

The Onion reveals that the way to ensure a smooth, quick, comfortable evacuation is to fly first class:

Flight Attendant Quietly Informs First Class Passengers Where Real Emergency Exits Are | The Onion - America's Finest News Source (http://www.theonion.com/articles/flight-attendant-quietly-informs-first-class-passe,35661/)

Super VC-10

1st Apr 2014, 09:04

Onions should be taken with a large pinch of salt. :hmm:

rethymnon

1st Apr 2014, 15:32

Couldn't we just have a tongue-in-cheek addition to the cabin briefing? Something along these lines:

'Should we need to evacuate the aircraft in an emergency, any passenger wishing to take with them hand baggage, laptops or handbags should remain seated until all other passengers and crew have left the aircraft.'

mixture

1st Apr 2014, 22:22

I always wear modern boots (ankle lenth)

That must be a bit tedious for you going through security at the airport. :cool:

llondel

2nd Apr 2014, 03:07

Don't the cabin crew at the head of each emergency slide stop Pax from taking belongings such as bags down the slide?

The problem is that by that point, the damage is done in terms of time, and trying to extract someone's bag from them is likely to result in more delay if they argue. That's unless you've got a flight attendant who's trained to kick the offender in the nuts, grab his bag and push him down the slide in one easy, fluid motion.

ExXB

2nd Apr 2014, 09:39

Question:

Does taking an approved cabin bag, or laptop, or handbag delay the process? Have any studies been done?

Don't shoot me, I just want to know if there is any evidence (for or against) to prove/disprove this assumption.

PAXboy

2nd Apr 2014, 11:34

mixture [re boots] That must be a bit tedious for you going through security at the airport.Considerably. The metal eyelets and hooks are large and always set off the metal detector. But I got used to wearing them in 'the good old days' when I was a student and won't change my ways. Stubborn old git?? Moi??

Re: Staff at exit door to remove stuff from pax
Unfortunately, taking the stuff off the pax at the door provides an argument and a growing pile of stuff. :*
llondel I think you have a great idea :E

ExXB A good question and I am fairly confident that the answer is: No.
All the test evacuations for certification are done by folks who know from the moment they sign the form (days in advance) what is going to happen. :rolleyes:

The a/c is on the ground and they are waiting for the 'off', often the a/c is in a hanger! They are not disctracted by having already had too many drinks in the lounge and flopped into their seat, in a strange a/c taxing out in darkness. Or be hardly awake after 12hrs sector. Etcetera.

I recall watching a film of one such practice for certification (A380, I think) and it was obvious that it was going to work. I don't think anyone doubts that such tests are almost pointless and are left over from earlier aviation days. But - like the stupid liquids ban - no one is going to change the rules.

Also, no one is going to hire 300 'extras' and get them to sign a form for a mystery flight and subject them to an unexpected evacuation. It should be done but it won't be.

On the other hand, it probably doesn't make any difference. We can see that the few runway evacs in recent years have gone reasonably well (Noting, Asiana 777 with pax under the foam) and I suspect that pax have probably ALWAYS been taking hand luggage with them. It's just that we have not had instant photographs to tell us so. ;)

joy ride

2nd Apr 2014, 12:35

I too have seen film of evacuation tests such as A380 and B777 and noted that among the test "passengers" there were no old or disabled people, no particularly large people, no babies and children and no-one confused and/or panic-stricken.

DaveReidUK

2nd Apr 2014, 13:35

Requiring that the evacuation tests are carried out using young, fit, healthy adults is the only way the regulators can be sure that manufacturers aren't going to fiddle the results by using sprightly pensioners and infant athletes.

Of course the tests aren't representative. That doesn't mean they're pointless.

TrakBall

2nd Apr 2014, 16:25

No, they are not completely pointless. If I remember correctly I believe the test for the DC-10/MD-11 (can''t remember which) found that the angle of the slide versus the jump the passengers took leaving the door was a definite problem.

The "passenger" generally leaped out of the door instead of dropping onto the slide. This cause the passenger to be catapulted like they had been jumping on a trampoline. If memory serves, a woman broke her leg during the test and they had to modify the angle of the slide to help prevent this from happening.