Bye Bye XP?

[mixture]

(I know I promised not to come back to this thread, but I'm not talking on the topic of XP here.... :cool:)

In fact, I am using that MBA to type this post. When it gets a bit hot, the kernel starts taking back CPU cycles in order to cool it down. As a result, any application you are using starts running like a dog.

As I've said before, you've got a very Apple bashing slant to your posts Andy.

I've no idea what you're doing to your poor MBA if "it gets a bit hot" just because you are posting on PPRuNe. Seems to me like you're looking for problems where none exist... aka spreading FUD.

I've extensively used and dealt with others who have used every laptop out of the sun. Apple laptops are consistently better than your average PC laptop, as I said earlier, if you go higher up the PC range, then of course the spread narrows and you get some decent products on the PC side... although I'd still have an Apple any day... in my experience they're far more reliable. I push my personal Apple devices very hard indeed and have had never had major issues at all.

[MidlandDeltic]

There are two sides to every story. The Joe Bloggs the Consumer doesn't help things by encouraging the IT industry in the "race to the bottom", the consumer only ever wants the price point to go in one direction.

Of course they do. That is what has happened to all products - as they develop, the price goes down. That applies to IT as much as air travel.


That's why Apple maintain their high quality, and everyone else produces rubbish in their standard ranges (go up the price points, and of course you can find quality in the PC arena too).... most of the stuff you find in the shops or airport duty free is not worth touching with a bargepole.

I know many iphone users who would disagree vehemently with that, from screen fragility to the inability to replace batteries without an expensive trip to the repair shop. On the desktop front, I remember my first encounter with a Mac, which was used to design printed leaflets, the IT bod having been advised by a smooth saleman that an Apple could not be beaten for DTP work. Despite having a trained, dedicated user this machine caused 3-4 times as many support issues as the PCs around it, and was ditched when the dedicated user moved on.


Microsoft are NOT ripping off the consumer by making XP obsolete though ! They've given you more than enough notice .... they've brought out three operating systems in the intervening period.... they can't support everything for ever.

Not directly maybe. But by not providing modest and second user machines with an upgrade path, and not allowing an install over the top of the existing (forcing a back-up and format - and we all know how M$ back up processes have been, er, less than stable in the past), they as part of the industry forcing users to replace perfectly servicable hardware. The ONLY beneficiaries are the profits at the IT firms - it is not good for end users (cost), economies (investment money diverted into otherwise unnescessary replacement of equipment) or indeed the environment. That is abuse of an effective monopoly. Yes, I know there is Apple, Linux etc, but for most home users these are neither user friendly (Linux), or appropriate (Apple - perceived issues over running "mainstream" programs designed for Windows).

Many of these machines are in use because their users are cash strapped - elderly, young, unemployed, charities etc - and upgrading is out of their financial reach. Having enticed people in to use the IT, is there not a responsibility to ensure that even these "low value" users still have access? I think there is, but of course there are those who think sectors of society who, for whatever reason, are not "viable economic units" should be left to rot.

Drat. Just realised I posted in this idiotic thread again. Quiet Sunday I guess. Definitely the last time ever, I'm not coming back here.

You will - it's the scab you love to pick at.... :)

[Guest 112233]

I can confirm from experience: of teaching people in the groups that you listed, that your points are fundamentally correct.

The Rev Keef accurately described the circumstances of some of his support community.

Don't bait Mixture; the avenging Angel of the IT Apocalypse, his perspective is technically valid and comes from experience and concomitant commercial responsibility and all that it entails (no pun intended). Remember he/she is taking the trouble to post useful info on PPRuNe.

M$ are exploiting their Monopoly as any rational commercial Company will do to placate/maintain their Shareholders.

They could have provided an easier/cheaper upgrade path for their XP users to Win 7 to maintain their XP user base.

Old Kit will run Ubuntu/Mint/Fedora very efficiently, but the rub comes with the peripherals and the user facing interfacing software design.

Printer Support for the uninitiated ? Wi-Fi Grrrrr. Plotters.... and installing re configuring software.

Untrained, poor (in all its forms), That's where XP Wins unfortunately.

To all the techies out there remember where you started from and you will begin to understand the scale of the problem - we are talking Millions of users world wide.

CAT III (Techie of sorts).

[mad_jock]

I was never as bad as the average user.

I think it was three days in my first job when I was promoted to network and hardware guru for SGI, Sun and PC hardware.

It all just seemed so bloody logical and easy to setup.

Now accounts and HR completely different story. I suspect to this day they still think that their files are completely secure on the network and only they have access to them.

If I had shares in MS just now I would be thinking about selling them I suspect there is going to be a major change in the market over this issue and its not going to be pleasant for them. And I don't think apple are going to reap the benefits either.

[OFSO]

Bounce Cycle: the time between Mixture announcing he will never never post on this thread again and his next and subsequent post on this thread.

[Andy_P]

As I've said before, you've got a very Apple bashing slant to your posts Andy.

I've no idea what you're doing to your poor MBA if "it gets a bit hot" just because you are posting on PPRuNe. Seems to me like you're looking for problems where none exist... aka spreading FUD.

I've extensively used and dealt with others who have used every laptop out of the sun. Apple laptops are consistently better than your average PC laptop, as I said earlier, if you go higher up the PC range, then of course the spread narrows and you get some decent products on the PC side... although I'd still have an Apple any day... in my experience they're far more reliable. I push my personal Apple devices very hard indeed and have had never had major issues at all.

See its not just apple bashing I do, its apple, microsoft, linux, IBM (among others) bashing I do. When I see favoritism, I like to point out the failures in your argument. Just remember, I dont deal with 10 or 20 of any device, I deal with thousands. I also write software on all the major OS's and some you would never had heard of.

BTW, the MBA getting hot thing, all I was doing was running 3 instances of chrome, with about 3 tabs open on each, low end stuff compared to most MBA users.

Now would you like me to tell you about Android on Samsung?:mad:

[exeng]

Don't bait Mixture Remember he/she is taking the trouble to post useful info on PPRuNe.



Whilst I do see some of the point you are trying to make I do have to say that poor old mixture seems to come across as a 'know it all grumpy' who sort of buys his own bait from the fishing shop. I'm sure he is a thoroughly decent chap/chapess, but when he types it doesn't seem to come across that way.

Anyway back on the thread. I've got an old XP laptop that has been used as a doorstop the last few years. I'm going to fire it up and leave it connected to the internet for a few weeks and see what happens. Nothing on the machine of any personal nature - I formatted it a few years ago, reloaded the OS and left it at that.

I'll let you know what happens.



Kind regards
Exeng

P.S. Is it possible that I will see a mushroom cloud of atomic proportions over the city of London from the leafy lanes of Surrey? Or will life go on as normal for most of us non IT people?

[Booglebox]

You may see a mushroom cloud from Mixture Towers when he has an aneuryism after reading that :}

[mad_jock]

Unless you go surfing its unlikely anything will happen.

What mixture and the other admins are concerned about is that the machine will sit there and turn into basically a tool for various types to do harm on there corporate networks.

There is a strong possibility that it will sit there and visually there will be nothing amiss. Just at certain points it might slow a bit as it launches a heap of crap onto the internet. 10-20 machines won't do much. But what the guys are worried about is when 6-7 figure numbers of machines get involved at a synchronised time point. The only way sometimes they can deal with it by pulling the plug to the outside world until it goes away. So what you might say but taking out say amazon for even 30mins is a huge lose of sales.

[Saab Dastard]

I'm going to fire it up and leave it connected to the internet for a few weeks and see what happens

If it is behind a firewall - even a NAT home router - then almost certainly nothing will happen, unless you are using it to at least surf the net in some way, as MJ says.

If you are directly connecting it with a public IP address, then it will be compromised, probably within hours.

SD

[lomapaseo]

\
Looks like the good ole aftermarket internet will take care of the archaic XP.

At lease those still running Internet Destroyer

Serious Internet Explorer Bug Leaves Half of all Browsers Open to Hack - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/serious-internet-explorer-bug-leaves-half-all-browsers-open-hack-n91281)



Serious Internet Explorer Bug Leaves Half of all Browsers Open to Hack

By Julianne Pepitone

Microsoft is scrambling to fix a newly found bug in Internet Explorer, which leaves all versions of the browser open to potential attacks.

Hackers have already used the flaw to launch "limited, targeted attacks," Microsoft said a "security advisory" on Saturday.

As with many attacks, hackers can start with methods like convincing users to click on fake websites, Microsoft explained. From there, the glitch could allow attackers to run malicious software on the user's computer -- and even gain the same level of access to the computer as the real user.

It's a serious flaw, and a widespread one: Internet Explorer comprised almost 58 percent of all desktop browsers in March, according to analytics company Net Applications.

Even the Department of Homeland Security weighed in with an advisory on Monday, calling on users to run alternative web browsers until Microsoft is able to fix the problem.

The Internet Explorer issue affects the browser's versions 6 through 11, Microsoft said in its post. Microsoft's response came one day after security company FireEye revealed the flaw in a post on its own site on Friday.

FireEye said attackers are focusing mostly on Internet Explorer versions 9 through 11, which make up about a quarter of all browsers. FireEye dubbed the attacks "Operation Clandestine Fox" and called the flaw "significant."

FireEye recommended that users disable Adobe Flash, saying "the attack will not work" in that case. But Adobe posted its own advisory on Monday, offering users a security update that it said will fix the problem.

Microsoft is still investigating the issue, and the company said it may fix the problem through either a scheduled or off-cycle security update.

Until then, Microsoft wrote in a separate blog post, the company recommends typical protection steps like installing anti-virus software and being cautious when visiting websites. Microsoft also suggested using Internet Explorer in "enhanced protected mode" and downloading a "toolkit" to help guard against attacks.

Those steps could help protect users of newer Windows versions until Microsoft releases a fix. But the glitch is a sobering reminder that no help is coming for users of Windows XP, as Microsoft dropped support of that operating system earlier this month.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Well, I have made transition to a W7 machine :confused:. It's taken nearly three days of very intermittent activity to get most of my programs operational. I hasten to add that there was the small matter of a crashed memory module in the midst of all of this, now replaced with 2 x 2 Gb slabs and a faster machine as a result.

I'm still trying to find out how to do old familiar tasks. If it weren't for Classic Shell I'd almost certainly be back to the previous system whatever the risks. Just imagine if every time you bought a new car you discovered that the gear shift patten was the opposite of the old one, the gear lever was on the back seat anyway, the steering wheel is now in the middle of the front seat area, and you needed to turn it clockwise to go left. Then there is the small matter that the accelerator and brake pedals had been swapped around. They just have to frigg about with everything don't they :sad:.

However there are few nice features in there; it's just that the other changes obscure these for much of the time. I may get to like it in time, but there's a long way to go. :8

But at least Mix' will be happy.

FOR

[llondel]

If you are directly connecting it with a public IP address, then it will be compromised, probably within hours.

Tests have been done that show that if you do a fresh WinXP install from disk and put it unprotected on the internet to download all the important updates, it'll be compromised before it's finished downloading them. I think it's reckoned to be under an hour before something will attempt to scan it.

[mad_jock]

that's the same with all OS's though.

Which is why I never connect them to the internet until after they are all set up and firewall in place.

[mixture]

Well, I have made transition to a W7 machine .
But at least Mix' will be happy.

Good boy. Buy yourself a beer. :)

You see you clinger-ons, it is possible to migrate.

As for the rest of you on page 12 etc. having fun stabbing me behind my back... :mad: you. I'm not even going to deign you with contemplating a reply, infact I'm probably going to add you to my ignore list as a punishment... that's at least three fewer people eligible for free IT support round here. :)

[mad_jock]

No body is denying that fact that it is possible.

Just the vast majority won't

[Keef]

There's a valid point there.

When I bought a new PC some years ago, before I had a "proper" router with a firewall, I connected it to the internet to download the necessary updates and anti-virus. Before I did that, I watched to see what happened.

The first "probe" into it came after 40 seconds. I'd expected it to be a few hours, which would have allowed me to do the updates.

I downloaded the anti-virus into the old machine, and copied it across to the new one without an internet connection.

[mad_jock]

Microsoft: Patch Internet Explorer NOW ... er, INCLUDING XP USERS ? The Register (http://m.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/01/internet_explorer_patch/)

So the first sign of anything and their arses collapse.

Microsoft's Azure cloud wobbles in West Europe ? The Register (http://m.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/01/microsoft_azure_cloud/)

Someone with a clue has obviously realised that the majority of attacks are going to be targeted at M$ servers and 25% of internet users being used to attack the micro****e cloud is going to be somewhat limiting to their business plan.

So I suspect XP will subjected to numerous updates whenever the cloud has a wobble and fails to provide the customers with what they have paid for.

XP users have M$ over the barrel they can't afford to not support it or there core services will get annihilated.

[Guest 112233]

Mixture: and in all fairness to the rest of us - Enlightened Self interest prevails see here. I meet your Four Kings with an Ace of Spades and a funny look.

Microsoft updates Windows XP to dodge IE flaw | News | PC Pro (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/388477/microsoft-updates-windows-xp-to-dodge-ie-flaw)

Mods: I have no pecuniary connection with the commercial site:

The Dynamic of usage has changed - M$ have at the last mil-second realized that the scope of their responsibility extends beyond their business model of profit.

Perhaps the world has changed (a bit) - PS I received very good and detailed help from their support staff in a very difficult situation a few weeks back.

I was genuinely surprised by the response.

CAT III

[OFSO]

- Now listen, we're not going to support XP ANY MORE so you'd better get used to it.

- Oh dear, a breach in Internet Explorer....all versions you say ? And it's serious ? Right we'll issue a patch...except to those silly fools who clung on to XP.

- What, it's REALLY serious ? Oh all right then, we'll include XP. Yes, I know we said we wouldn't but....it's JUST THIS ONCE, D'YOU HEAR ME ? Won't happen again.

- Unless it does.

(Glass of water for Mr Mixture, please)

[mad_jock]

Thier whole business model relay on the clouds being accessible. And Windows 8.x needs the login server if you have the daft Windows account.

If they don't support XP the legacy users are the only ones going to be able to use their pc's. The cloud users etc are going to left with a useless brick on thier desks

[Andy_P]

Just checked a few of our webservers, just over 20% decline in XP usage over the last month, with the increase being taken up mainly by Win 7 as opposed to Win 8.

[mad_jock]

Just looked at our booking servers and it was down 1% just before the alleged stopping of the support and since, its up 0.25%. So we can put that down to nothing changed and just variation over the month.

[Cameronian]

Well, I got a new HDD and installed W7 in my desktop. After reinstalling programs etc. and copying data I decided to leave the old XP drive in for a couple of weeks in case I had forgotten something. All now seems to be well with the functioning of W7 and I appear to have got everything in its proper place on the new HDD. The old XP one is causing me little problems and is responsible for various warnings and error messages so now I want to clean up. Is it sufficient just to remove the little power connector on the old drive, leaving the drive in place and the big ribbon connector still connected? That's easier and the drive won't get lost or fall into the hands of the Philistines. Will that simple action be enough to prevent it causing problems, please?

[mixture]

Is it sufficient just to remove the little power connector on the old drive, leaving the drive in place and the big ribbon connector still connected? That's easier and the drive won't get lost or fall into the hands of the Philistines. Will that simple action be enough to prevent it causing problems, please?

Yes that's fine... no power no problem. :cool:

[Cameronian]

Thank you for that very welcome information, Mixture. I want to get it right first time but I am no longer so flexible that I want to guddle about for longer than necessary but I don't want to have to revisit it either. My machine has always been fairly quick for an oldie (Pentium with two 3.20 cores) but it's doing everything noticeably quicker now with W7 and its new 1TB Seagate. Happy days are here again!

I'll just go and turn it on again so that I can leave my wife's laptop in peace.

[BOAC]

Why not do a full format, or better still, wipe the drive? You could leave it in place and use it for backups? but I don't want to have to revisit it either.There is bound to come a time when the XP drive is 'removed' and disposed of - you may sometime replace the PC and not have any IDE connectors - are you not concerned about its contents?

[Cameronian]

I am normally the most cautious of the cautious, BOAC! I'm not going to use the old drive for anything because it has some bad sectors and is also starting to get a little noisier than before. Security isn't really an issue because it's sitting two inches away from the new functioning one whose data is already more valid and rather easier to steal - and without the need for a screwdriver too!!

When the time finally comes I will smash it to bits and steal its magnet!!

Thank you for your interest and advice.

[mad_jock]

how much did that cost in the end?

[Cameronian]

About €40, mad jock.

[mad_jock]

IS that all how much was the win7 license?

[MG23]

Tests have been done that show that if you do a fresh WinXP install from disk and put it unprotected on the internet to download all the important updates, it'll be compromised before it's finished downloading them.

I certainly remember that happening to an XP machine some years ago, at the last company I worked for which ran Windows. However, it's not such a big deal for a home user, as they're probably behind a router firewall and can't be remotely scanned.

[Capn Bloggs]

When the time finally comes I will smash it to bits and steal its magnet!!

I quite enjoy banging up my old hard drives with an axe. They are surprisingly strong buggers! :}

You could leave it in place and use it for backups?
I always have my backups going on to a second drive in the machine JIC the main drive carks it unexpectedly. And yes, I also have an "out of the machine" backup as well.

[BEagle]

Well, I had to say good-bye to WinXP on my primary laptop computer this week. Not because I wanted to, but because the dreaded 'Disk Read Error' came up on Sunday, confirmed by Dell to be a hard drive failure....:(

Fortunately I'd paid for an extended warranty, so the technician called at BEagle Towers on Wednesday and sorted everything out. Plus a new keyboard and touch pad, then installed Win 7 which had been supplied with the laptop, plus sundry drivers. I left the system merrily downloading 4 years of Windows updates whilst I went to an excellent lecture at White Waltham by Rich Graham about his time flying the SR-71.

Yes, Win 7 SP 1 and IE11 are a vast improvement - and cost me nothing. But I no longer have Outlook Express, so have started using Outlook, which is probably more advanced, but lacks the simplicity of OE6....

For some reason, PPRuNe keeps logging me out even though I've clicked 'remember me'. There's also an automatic spell checker which has appeared from somewhere. Is there an 'options' setting tab which I've overlooked?

[Ancient Observer]

Beagle,

we have had a few threads on the sad death of Outlook Express. I moved to Outlook, but probably need 1/100th of its capabilities.
It's OK. A steamroller to crack a very small nut.

Although it says it will arrange meetings, it has yet to set me up with Emelia Fox............

[Booglebox]

For those looking for a simpler mail program, Windows Live Mail may do the trick.
Outlook is cool though. I have the "ribbon" minimized and the things I actually need are pinned to the "quick access toolbar", like this:
http://i.imgur.com/iE27DxU.png

[BEagle]

In my opinion, 'Windows Live Mail' sucks more than a sycophantic remora. I tried it and it was awful.....

I will tiddle about with Outlook to tweak settings / defaults, but I really think that Micro$oft dropped a bollock when they binned OE!

[BOAC]

OE CLassic?

[Heathrow Harry]

LiveMail is truly awful............

Why they did away with OE beats me.......

[Booglebox]

BOAC refers to OE Classic - Easy to use Outlook Express replacement (http://www.oeclassic.com/)
Another good one is eM Client - eM Client - the Best Email Client for Windows | eM Client (http://www.emclient.com/)

[goeasy]

Is it really still possible to buy win7? Everywhere I have asked, they have said no looking at me like I was asking to buy win95...

[Bushfiva]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=windows+7&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Awindows+7


Amazon.com Software: Microsoft Windows 7 (http://www.amazon.com/microsoft-windows-7-8-software/b?ie=UTF8&node=1286119011)


etc
etc

[PowerDragTrim]

goeasy, Why don't you just download a genuine article from Digital River (MS's own site) or from here Windows 7 Digital River direct links: Multiple Languages; X86 & X64 (http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/14709-Windows-7-Digital-River-direct-links-Multiple-Languages-X86-amp-X64)
They are FREE!

[Booglebox]

You can buy new PCs with Win7 preinstalled until the end of this year, AFAIK.

[JimR]

PDT
Maybe the download is free, but you still have to buy the licence!

[mad_jock]

Well that's xp usage gone down to 26%

Seems that Mac is getting quite a bit of business out of this ie more gains than Win7 and 8.

[Capn Bloggs]

Seems that Mac is getting quite a bit of business out of this ie more gains than Win7 and 8.
I can understand that. Win 7 has virtually nothing that makes it stand out from XP and Win 8 looks like it was designed by a 4 year-old. Pathetic (and a waste of two weeks of my life "upgrading").

Oh, the cycling desktop wallpaper is really cool.

[Booglebox]

I was waiting for this. Registry hack to make Windows Update think that your XP machine is a POSready 2009 machine (support until 2019).

Registry hack enables continued updates for Windows XP | ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/registry-hack-enables-continued-updates-for-windows-xp-7000029851/)

This more-or-less confirms what I suspected - MS are making updates for XP anyway, for POSready 2009 and for schmucks who pay $200/desk/year.

Conclusion: XP is not dead. Your move, Mixture :}

[johngreen]

For some reason, PPRuNe keeps logging me out even though I've clicked 'remember me'.
If you work out the solution to this, please explain how you did it. Having reluctantly made the change to Win 7 this is the only thing that I cannot seem to make work as I would like.


In fact, on both pprune and on some other sites, if I click on the username box, the correct information appears in a drop down window and if I select this, the password then automatically fills in and I am logged in. I always tick 'remember me' though it never does...


Any ideas out there???


jg

[mad_jock]

Whats your internet security settings and privacy?

It sounds like you have them so they delete all cookies on shutdown.

If you have them both set to medium it should work.

[johngreen]

Jock, Assuming you were addressing me, the default settings were both medium high but even with internet security and privacy set to medium, it is exactly the same.


Strangely (perhaps?) sometimes it does remember who I am but this seems to be rather without rhyme or reason.


This is a brand new machine and a clean install... So far it has defeated any attempt to convince it to act differently...

[mad_jock]

What version of IE are you using?


And do you use any form of cleaner?

Its a cookie issue so you can reset IE or upgrade IE it should in theory reset things back to working.

If you are using a cleaner there should be an option to not delete the cookies.

[johngreen]

Excellent - and thanks for the suggestion.
Now using IE 11 and it seems to be working properly.
Should have tried that before perhaps but always dread opening a new can of MS worms...

[mad_jock]

Well last month was the first that XP dropped below 25% of OS used on the internet.

[mixture]

Well last month was the first that XP dropped below 25% of OS used on the internet.

Says who ? Those "on the internet" style statistics are utter bull as there's no way you can measure that stuff (unless your name is NSA or GCHQ perhaps !).

Nonetheless, irrespective of whose measurements were used, glad to see numbers dropping....

[mad_jock]

I only really use them as a comparison for a trend up or down.

When XP went out it was 28% and now its 25% on the dot.