Bye Bye XP?

[BOAC]

As that moment approaches, can someone explain to me what will happen to my XP installed programmes which I run under Win7 if I remove the XP OS from my drive? Do I need to re-install all these on Win7?

Does the 'Run as XP' option require the XP OS? I guess it will need the XP registry?

As a 'supplementary', is there an option to continue with XP on my machine but with internet access disabled for it (XP) or will it still be 'vulnerable'?

I have run the virtualisation detection tool but it tells me I do not 'have the necessary permissions to access the item'. As per the M$ page, do I need to download and install Windows XP Mode, and Windows Virtual PC?

[mixture]

can someone explain to me what will happen to my XP installed programmes which I run under Win7 if I remove the XP OS from my drive? Do I need to re-install all these on Win7?

I'm confused, how exactly are you planning to remove XP from your drive and yet not remove your programs or data ?

Does the 'Run as XP' option require the XP OS? I guess it will need the XP registry?


Of course not. Everything that function needs is built into Windows 7/8.

As a 'supplementary', is there an option to continue with XP on my machine but with internet access disabled for it (XP) or will it still be 'vulnerable'?

Only in a truly and permanently disabled form... i.e. it will never, ever be connected to a network cable or WiFi hotspot ever again.

You of course would also need to ensure you don't infect it via indirect vectors (e.g. plugging USB sticks in).

Basically, the only place for XP is the bin.

[henry_crun]

Basically, the only place for XP is the bin.

I've been trying to tell our local library that for the past year. They are still using it. No doubt our local authority is too. Okay until things go wrong...........

[BOAC]

I'm confused, how exactly are you planning to remove XP from your drive and yet not remove your programs or data ? - you really are an old grump, aren't you?

Answer - by deleting the Windows folder?

[mixture]

- you really are an old grump, aren't you?

Not really, only when it comes to XP clinger-ons.

Answer - by deleting the Windows folder?

Aah... well, you didn't make that bit at all clear. So basically you're turning it into an external hard drive with your old files on it. Which is fine... as long as you don't connect it to an XP machine ! :cool:

You will of course break your software at the same time as Windows, but you knew that I guess.

But really, if I were you, I'd look at a clean migration to 7 or 8. And then only move accross files you really need, and install software from scratch.

[lomapaseo]

I can safely predict that millions will go on operating XP for years on the internet.

Nothing will be said that can stop this

Are there some browsers in the works that can sense XP and block their internet function.

How about FTP programs as well?

Be afraid :eek:

[Lone_Ranger]

Funny how for years now Win versions have gone ..good version-bad, version-good version, bad version etc. win 2000 was good, windows millenium was crap, xp was good, vista was crap win 7 was good, win 8 is crap

[BOAC]

and install software from scratch. - I don't think you have quite understood the question. I have no intention of using XP after 6 April (unless extended), am happily running W7, but I have several little progs collected over the years without install files any more, and would like to continue to use them. I do not understand enough about the 'install' process, and yes, my 'external drive' as it will become has these progs 'installed' on it - in the registry? Thus I do not comprehend "You will of course break your software at the same time as Windows". Your statement "Of course not. Everything that function needs is built into Windows 7/8." appears totally contradictory.

I have assumed that the XP based progs require dll's and the like to run. If I delete the XP OS, they go too, do they not, so the question is what can I do?

[ExSp33db1rd]

win 8 is crap Yes, roll on 9.

Win 97 was OK, too. IIABDFI

[vulcanised]

only when it comes to XP clinger-ons.


and it often sounds like an obsession bordering on hysteria.

What if it turns out to be another Y2K, a marketing ploy?

[mixture]

What if it turns out to be another Y2K, a marketing ploy?

(a) Y2K wasn't a marketing ploy, the effort spent resolved issues before they became issues.

(b) XP becoming obsolete is certainly not something to joke about. It is absolutely not a good idea to be running XP after April, that's a fact backed up by much evidence.

[BOAC]

Is there anyone who understands the architecture of running XP programmes in Windows7 please; do I need to retain the Windows (XP) folder, and are there any risks involved in retaining the XP OS on my drive in order to do so if I do not connect to the internet with it?

Is the answer a VM?

[Saab Dastard]

BOAC,

Your question still lacks adequate information. Are you talking about a dual-boot environment?

It depends on whether the applications were installed through / under Win 7 or not. If they were, then the presence or absence of XP is irrelevant (unless you specifically chose to install them into a Windows XP system folder!!).

By install, I mean to create registry entries and / or locate application files in the Windows directory structure.

If they were installed under XP, but accessible to Win 7 using the XP executables / binaries, then removing XP will prevent them from working with Win 7. However, I wouldn't expect many such applications to function properly.

Any application whose installation process is simply to place an executable file (and ancillary files) elsewhere on the disk (without modifying the registry or the Windows directory) will be accessible to any Windows OS with access to that disk (16 / 32 / 64-bit compatibility allowing).

SD

[BOAC]

If they were installed under XP, but accessible to Win 7 using the XP executables / binaries, - yes, as per post 1? I thought that was clear - "my XP installed programmes which I run under Win7". Yes it is dual-boot but will not be post 6/4.

wouldn't expect many such applications to function properly. - all so far do. I have yet to have a 'failure'. All sorts of useful little utilities culled even from W2000 days and probably earlier.

Any application whose installation process is simply to place an executable file (and ancillary files) elsewhere on the disk (without modifying the registry or the Windows directory) will be accessible to any Windows OS with access to that disk (16 / 32 / 64-bit compatibility allowing).
- I cannot see I have a snowball's chance in hell of finding that out over all the years. So, I would appreciate answers from someone to and are there any risks involved in retaining the XP OS on my drive in order to do so if I do not connect to the internet with it?

Is the answer a VM? (without frightening mixture, of course.

[le Pingouin]

The point is if you can run them from within Win7 now then the presence or absence of WinXP is immaterial as they're self contained and running without reference to the OS they were installed under. They weren't installed under Win7 so Win7 can have no "knowledge" of file locations and settings. The programs themselves are providing that information when they run.

For starters look at the directory they're installed in (as in where does the shortcut you run them with point) - they most likely have their own directory that contains all the files needed. It's much like the current day "portable" installations where you can run software "installed" on a flash drive.

I doubt leaving WinXP intact but unused will pose much of a danger because trying to run anything from it under Win7 will fail (wrong registry, wrong files and everything in the wrong place).

[mixture]

do I need to retain the Windows (XP) folder, and are there any risks involved in retaining the XP OS on my drive in order to do so if I do not connect to the internet with it?

The issue only arises when you boot XP and connect it to the internet.

Preferably you should be looking to achieve both, since in its disconnected state XP will soon start to show signs of obsolescence (bugs etc.).

As mentioned above, if you effectively turn the XP drive into "just another" external/internal hard drive by killing off its ability to boot (e.g. removing C:\Windows as you previously mentioned), then you can just adopt the security posture as you would any other filesystem under your Windows 7/8 machine.

I think the confusion from me (and it seems others here) was your mention of
"XP installed programmes "...... kill your ability to boot XP and you'll kill those programs too.

If on the other hand you're talking about "Run as XP" in 7/8 then just install them in 7/8 and use them there.

[BOAC]

They weren't installed under Win7 so Win7 can have no "knowledge" of file locations and settings. The programs themselves are providing that information when they run.- thanks Ping - therein lies the problem - does Win7 call on the XP OS to track down the dlls via the registry and so on?

Leaving the OS in place may well be the choice (poor Mixture....:)) but I would have thought a VM would be a better and safer option. Otherwise how to ENSURE that no internet access reaches any part of XP?

[le Pingouin]

It's dual boot. Neither OS knows anything about the other. You have it configured so Win7 can access the filesystem that WinXP is installed on but all it sees is a collection of files, not an OS. WinXP isn't running in any way shape or form and the WinXP registry isn't accessed as Win7 doesn't even know it exists.

You can't run WinXP inside Win7 like that. With dual boot it's one or the other. If you never boot into WinXP again there is no risk.

[Saab Dastard]

does Win7 call on the XP OS to track down the dlls via the registry and so on?

Absolutely not.

If - as you claim - all these applications installed under XP still work under 7, why do you need to run XP at all (in the sense of being able to boot into it)?

Why do you need to even contemplate running XP "in a VM"?

There is zero threat if you have old XP executable, system files etc. hanging around wasting disk space if you don't boot into it.

Easiest way to see if all your old gubbins still work is to rename the XP Windows directory to something else - from within Win 7, obviously. If everything works, then the applications don't need anything in the Windows directory and you can just delete it, lock stock and barrel.

SD

[BOAC]

If - as you claim - all these applications installed under XP still work under 7, why do you need to run XP at all (in the sense of being able to boot into it)? - aha! Back to my original question! No, I did not suggest 'booting into it' by the way.

Why do you need to even contemplate running XP "in a VM"?
- seemed like an option? (Thinking of Mixture's ulcer.....)
There is zero threat if you have old XP executable, system files etc. hanging around wasting disk space if you don't boot into it. - good stuffEasiest way to see if all your old gubbins still work is to rename the XP Windows directory to something else - from within Win 7, obviously. If everything works, then the applications don't need anything in the Windows directory and you can just delete it, lock stock and barrel.
- yup, a simple solution indeed. Will try.

[BEagle]

As Windows 8 is widely acknowledged to be an utter disaster, why on Earth haven't the Micro$oft tosseurs brought out something for grown-ups which is as user-friendly as WinXP, if they expect XP users to change?

As has been said, people are going to continue to use WinXP for many years yet, thanks to the garbage which is Win8. Even though Micro$oft are trying to frighten them into paying hundreds of pounds/dollars/€uros to scrap perfectly good systems.....

And don't bother telling me how wunnerful Mac systems are....

[Saab Dastard]

something for grown-ups which is as user-friendly as WinXP, if they expect XP users to change?

I suggest they did - Win 7.

SD

[le Pingouin]

MS is far from being the only ones telling people they need to use something different It's just sensible advice because using an unsupported OS online is a risk, and being WinXP it's an even bigger risk as it's a great fat juicy target with a well developed set of hacking tools to hand and plenty of very experienced WinXP blackhats to use them. It's a fair bet that some very nasty exploits will come to light after April 8th.

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Linux user and have no association with MS.

As SD says there's Win7 and yes, the Metro interface is a dog on the desktop but add something like ClassicShell and it's quite usable.

[Ancient Observer]

Rather a lot of airlines are still using XP, so when it goes u/s I suspect there will be the usual Aviation customer service problems. Tents at T5 and T4 again soon?

[Private jet]

I think M$ are dropping themselves in it big time by stopping support for XP.

After April 8 millions of people will continue to use XP, many oblivious to the potential risks. Many of these machines will end up having security comprimises and rightly or wrongly people will blame Micro$oft.
Millions of others will now rush out and buy a new machine, retailers, in order to cash in, will bump up the prices and people will blame Micro$oft.
Those new machines, if people stick with Windows, will come with Windows #8, or to put it more accurately number two because a lot of people think its crap. Thats right, you guessed it, millions of people will blame micro$oft.

They are losing a LOT of customer goodwill by doing this. Many people are happy with XP because they dont need a powerful gaming platform or a thousand useless apps or want all this social media connectivity crap or cloud computing BS.

[BOAC]

Meanwhile back at the ranch - changing the XP OS directory name seems to allow the progs to run as SD said, but changing the user profile folder name (denying much of the app data) throws a wobbly.

I think the confusion from me (and it seems others here) was your mention of
"XP installed programmes "...... kill your ability to boot XP and you'll kill those programs too. - confusion? Not what the others think! By "XP installed programmes" I mean programmes installed with XP as the OS - simples? I cannot think of any better way to say that. The opinion appears to be that an "XP installed programme" will still run in Win7 without the XP OS.

(PS I am not intending to 'boot into XP')

Out of interest, none of the 'old' Office suite runs in Win7 with a changed XP directory name, so I assume some part of the installation depends on the XP OS.

[le Pingouin]

Until it came to light your were dual booting I didn't know what you were meaning by "XP installed" - didn't make a lot of sense.

The only reason these particular programs will run is that they're "old school" and don't use the registry. Old school as in designed for Win98. Most more modern software unless it's designed to run "portably" will use the registry and can't be run except through the OS it was installed on.

[mixture]

Millions of others will now rush out and buy a new machine, retailers, in order to cash in, will bump up the prices and people will blame Micro$oft.

If you knew the slightest thing about the IT industry, you would know that is utter nonsense !

At the level of anything you as an average Joe home user buys, the competition is fierce, and price point has been overused as a competitive tool that margins have been eroded.

Seriously. We're talking generally about a 5% margin, maybe 8% if you're lucky. Dealing with average Joe home users, its all a bit box-shifting volume game.

[BOAC]

Heavens above! At the time the programmes were installed, in fact, I was 'dual booting' 2000 and XP and sometimes triple with Linux, but these programmes were downloaded and the mouse clicked to install under XP if that makes it clearer? I am NOT dual booting now if that helps? I cannot really see what 'dual booting' has to do with the query.

Your last para does not agree with mixtureDoes the 'Run as XP' option require the XP OS? I guess it will need the XP registry?

Of course not. Everything that function needs is built into Windows 7/8.

[mixture]

I mean programmes installed with XP as the OS - simples?

So you mean you've done a fresh install of Windows 7, and you're magically expecting the XP software you installed back when you used to boot into XP to work ?

If you installed the software as you should, under Windows 7, then I can't see a reason why it shouldn't work unless there are some weird library dependencies.

Maybe you'd like to fire up Paint and sketch us a diagram of how said software inter-relates to Windows 7 and your legacy XP system.... sometimes a picture = 1000 words as they say ;-)

Out of interest, none of the 'old' Office suite runs in Win7 with a changed XP directory name, so I assume some part of the installation depends on the XP OS.

Yes, but did you actually install it under Windows 7 ? Or did you just rename the "old" Windows directory and hope for the best ?

If the latter, then I'm not at all surprised you broke it.

[Avtrician]

Any MS Office programs will need to be reinstalled, so that the W7 registry knows where the program lives. Any program that had data written to the XP registry will need to be ri installed unfortunately.

Do you really need to dump XP?? It will continue to operate as well as it does on the day support is stopped. Those who write programs to exploit vulnerabilities, will be targetting W7/8/9(?) and no doubt forget XP exisits.

Those businesses that continue to use XP, will probably do so, due to the difficulty in migrating their systems to newer platforms.

[le Pingouin]

It wasn't clear what you meant by "XP installed programs" - were they installed in XP: dual boot? VM? XP mode on Win7 Pro? XP compatibility mode? Simply copied from elsewhere?

I understand you aren't booting XP but the programs you are running are part of a dual boot installation.

It's been many years since I've touched Win9x but many programs installed their own directory tree and used .ini files to store settings. Copy the required bits to another computer & it would run. You'd end up with multiple copies of some runtime files of assorted version numbers scattered all over your system because each program brought their own copy.

The fact the programs are ancient and actually run under the arrangement you have would suggest they're of the type outlined above. i.e. all you likely need is the directory tree for the program for it to run.

Avtrician, what makes you think the baddies won't target WinXP? If we believe Netmarketshare's figures WinXP still had a 29% market share in February 2014, meaning there will still be several 100 million PCs running it. I'd call that a huge fat juicy target, and a static one to boot. Qnce a flaw is discovered it will be there forever unpatched. Looks like easy pickings to me.

Not to mention that flaws in one Windows version often affect other versions as well. Every patch released for Win7 is potentially addressing a flaw that also exists in WinXP. The patch will be reverse engineered and exploits created to attack those flaws. WinXP will be included in the exploit as it costs very little extra to do so.

[mixture]

Do you really need to dump XP?? It will continue to operate as well as it does on the day support is stopped. Those who write programs to exploit vulnerabilities, will be targetting W7/8/9(?) and no doubt forget XP exisits.

:ugh:

Oh what it is to be so naive !

(a) The dark side will be well aware there will be a whole generation of clinger-ons like you ... and they will take much enjoyment from "p3wn'ing" your system. XP users are a dream for them .... they know their exploits will never get patched, and there will be a reasonable number of XP clinger-ons ... as a result they can demand and get $$$ for their exploits on the black market.

(b) As well as XP specific exploits, they will also be looking at 7/8 exploits and backporting those to XP.

So no, they're not going to leave you alone and forget about it. Infact, I fully expect more rather than less XP exploits to become available, and that those XP exploits will be quite nasty !

Those businesses that continue to use XP, will probably do so, due to the difficulty in migrating their systems to newer platforms.

Please... DO NOT.... compare yourself as a home user to businesses.

For home users, there is only one option.... get rid of XP. There is no excuse.

The same goes for mom & pop small businesses..... get rid of XP. There is no excuse.

Large Businesses & Government have more options because they have a well financed IT department and the money to pay Microsoft for XP support (the NHS for example are about to write Microsoft a cheque for £40m to cover extended XP support.... for 12 months ). The cost and hassle of supporting obsolete systems is simply not worth it unless you have to.

However you will find that even large businesses & government are moving away from XP unless they absolutely need to stay.

[henry_crun]

Aha! So that's it, the uk NHS and, no doubt, local authorities can buy ongoing support.

So what about the small users? If support is possible on large systems, it must also be possible on small systems, and if m-soft refuses surely this puts it open to independent companies to offer support? In fact, doesn't it make XP an open-market product? Look for some interesting legal cases in coming years!

[mixture]

If support is possible on large systems, it must also be possible on small systems, and if m-soft refuses surely this puts it open to independent companies to offer support? In fact, doesn't it make XP an open-market product?

Yawn. :ugh:

Microsoft have given every man and his dog more than enough notice about the impending obsolescence of XP (EOL first announced 14th April 2009). The fact people are too lazy to have done anything about it is not Microsoft's problem.

Do you realise how much it costs to maintain a complex codeset such as those in operating systems ? Microsoft cannot be expected to support everything forever. They now have support for 7 & 8 running, and are busy working on 9 .... so its only to be expected that they have to drop old products in order to make way for new.

There won't be any "interesting legal cases". And there won't be any "independent support" ... the XP source code remains Microsoft's own intellectual property.... only the same idiots who use XP after April would trust third-party patches !

I've already made it clear above why Microsoft give large government and businesses the opportunity to pay for support .... its because they have legacy systems that will take longer to migrate (or in the case of the NHS they've simply got a vast PC estate of some one million plus PCs... that's just going to take time to get into every nook and cranny). Home users and small business do not have such legacy systems or large estates, and thus they have no excuse not to migrate away from XP.

[henry_crun]

Not convinced that Europe will agree, they have a pretty good track record on bringing New World upstarts to heel.....

[Booglebox]

I guess the black market for XP critical updates will be more widespread and more available than the one for W2K, which is already pretty good :}

[le Pingouin]

That'll work really well Henry, particularly when it's finally settled sometime after 2025 and MS has no-one left who knows anything about the code and the last time it was maintained was 2017. Would you really be prepared to pay $200 in the first year, $400 in the second and $800 in the third for support? That's what MS is charging per seat.

[henry_crun]

Pingouin - not a prob for me, I get a new tablet each year, currently on Jelly Bean, next will be KitKat.......

[Andy_P]

Probably a bit late to this thread. but Under Win7, you can run XP Mode, which is a Virtual PC running Windows XP. It works fine, I use it regularly to run some older software.

BTW, not sure why everyone rags on Win 8. Its exactly the same as Win 7 outside of the UI. If you dont like the UI, you can install the 8.1 service pack and you can revert it back to the old UI.

I am really getting to like Windows now. I run it as my main OS, then run XP,Ubuntu and Red Hat in Virtual Machines. Now I just need to figure out how to make OSX run under VM and then I am down to just one PC and one Laptop.

[FullOppositeRudder]

My situation will require the ongoing use of an XP computer in the office network which includes limited file exchange and printer sharing for the XP box with the rest of the system.

Given that my internet work will be done on a W7 box, is this an acceptable option for keeping the XP machine alive on the local network but shut off from the big bad online world?

Block Internet Access over Network but allow Network Access / File & Print Sharing in Windows 8 , 7 , Vista , XP | TroubleShoot Windows (http://www.troubleshootwindows.com/misc/block-internet-access-over-network-but-allow-network-access-file-print-sharing-in-windows-8-7-vista-xp/)

Please just technical advice if you can - there is no need for your personal opinions on my circumstances and motives. I know the local requirements and this is what has to happen.

Thank you,
FOR

[cattletruck]

FOR, a good firewall and XP machines that cannot surf the net or receive uncertified software should be fine.

However, a few weeks ago I was reading a paper on how a bunch of smart hackers came to exploit a PDF file and make it launch executable code. Adobe has since patched up their PDF reader but you can bet that if something similar is discovered after XP support ends then Adobe *may* not provide an update for XP. This means that something as innocent as opening a PDF file may work ok on W7 but compromise your XP machines.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Thanks cattletruck, appreciate your comments.

Interestingly a friend of mine got "caught" about 6 months ago with a infection which somehow came with a PDF file. It was quite messy, but the local 'mixture' was able to restore order. :ok:

A good point - I'll keep it in mind. It will be a different world and I need to work with that.

Thanks again ...
FOR

[mixture]

However, a few weeks ago I was reading a paper on how a bunch of smart hackers came to exploit a PDF file and make it launch executable code.

PDF files... pah... that's for beginners.

I've seen tales of exploits hidden in innocent looking jpeg images. :E

Given that my internet work will be done on a W7 box, is this an acceptable option for keeping the XP machine alive on the local network but shut off from the big bad online world?

Configure the IP manually (both v4 and v6) and do not set a default gateway.

Machines on the local network will still be able to see the XP machine, but the XP machine will not be able to find its way out on to the internet.

BUT ... the ideal solution is still to rid yourself entirely for XP though, because if you get an exploit on to the XP machine, it will still be capable of infecting your local network, and thus get onto the internet indirectly.

I still have difficulty believing you have a genuine reason for running XP though .... print & file server is no excuse.... ;-)

[Saab Dastard]

Under Win7, you can run XP Mode, which is a Virtual PC running Windows XP

Yes, you can, but if it's internet connected it's just as vulnerable as any other instance of XP.

SD

[mixture]

after XP support ends then Adobe *may* not provide an update for XP

As I've said a million times before on the subject, its not a case of the third-party vendors providing updates for their products, otherwise anti-virus etc. on XP would be a viable option.

The problem is that anti-virus, Adobe and every other software package is running on top of the Operating System and are dependent on it and its APIs (developer coding interfaces).

As a result... unsupported, obsolete and vulnerable Operating System equals vulnerable software.... no matter what the software or whether its developer is still providing updates.

[le Pingouin]

FOR, the "traditional" way of doing that is to use 127.0.0.1 as the DNS - that's internal reference to the computer itself.

The problem with this approach is it just blocks address resolution and not Internet access. By using IP addresses it's possible to get in and out. Also it's not isolated from the network so if another system happens to cop a dose of something the WinXP system is vulnerable, and as has been highlighted it's still vulnerable to infected files. Obviously those are a smaller risk than actively taking it online, but it's a risk none the less.

[cattletruck]

Much to mixture's chagrin, I plan on running my XP machine until it dies.

Now before the ever so helpful and knowledgeable 'mix' gets all riled up please let me explain. I purchased this ASUS EeePC some 5 years ago with the intention of it being a sacrificial net surfing machine. The computer is not powerful so I had to turn off many Windows services to make it run to my liking. I do not run virus protection software although I have occasionally installed a free version when my suspicions were aroused only to find nothing, then I uninstall it. I only use the windows firewall that came with XP for internet protection. I do not install Windows updates.

Other than Windows XP the little NetBook also runs FireFox 26, Office 2003, VLC, Quicktime, Photoshop (old version), vim, Winzip, Cygwin and Kyodai Mahjongg - that's quite a punch for a little tacker - and they all work well enough to be useable.

I have recently setup another W7 laptop to become this one's replacement should it eventually croak. After 5 years and many net hours of use, the little EeePC is showing some physical signs of stress. The power supply plug has been replaced 3 times. The batteries are almost unusable and confusing the run-on-battery mode OS feature. Sometimes I can even hear faint electrical arcing noises emanating from the back.

But I will persist with it dammit....until its very last CPU cycle regardless of what those Microsoft people say. :ok:

[mixture]

I do not run virus protection software..
I do not install Windows updates.


I trust you are merely pulley my leg, because that sort of computing is incredibly reckless and you have been very, very,very,very lucky to not have been caught out by your utter contempt in more ways than one (i.e not only talking about viruses here, but the overall benefits that come with installing windows updates).

[cattletruck]

I wouldn't say I was lucky, nor reckless, I guess the good outcome is more a reflection of the kind of internet activity I choose to engage with. I should have also added that I did reconfigure that internet firewall to be extremely strict. The only thing of value on this laptop is the time invested in setting it up.

I recall many years ago working at a big Swedish multinational telco when one of their retarded employees who wanted my job told me about a new super duper flight simulator to download. It was in RAR format which immediately raised my suspicions. He even downloaded it onto my work computer but he chose not to install it even though he was talking up its amazing appeal. See where this was going? I put the file on a usb key and stored it for posterity. 4 years later I decided to run a virus check on the RAR file and sure enough, just as I suspected there was a half recognised virus in it.

There are plenty of internet sites that invest a lot of time and effort to help you stay out of the dark side on the internet, use them and a lot of your net experience will be worry free.

[mixture]

As I said, updates in particular are not always to do with security related matters.

Anyway, I'm not being drawn into this one, so I'm not commenting any further other than to say your style of computing is very much questionable and not an example for others to follow.

One day it'll come bite you in the backside, don't come here looking for tea and sympathy.

[Pelikal]

Just curious, does anyone know what XP 'stands for'?

[mixture]

According to the press release way back in 2001....

The XP name is short for "experience," symbolizing the rich and extended user experiences Windows and Office can offer by embracing Web services that span a broad range of devices.

[henry_crun]

I thought it was originally to be called Windows 2000 but the code name was so good they kept it...

...around the same time the 586 became the Pentium. We were hoping the next in the series would be called Hex, but Terry Pratchett got there first.

[cattletruck]

Anyway, I'm not being drawn into this one, so I'm not commenting any further other than to say your style of computing is very much questionable and not an example for others to follow.

Well said. What I do here, which is motivated by dirt cheap computing and getting the biggest bang for your buck won't work for everyone. I am computer literate and can smash 'em and fix 'em anytime I like, well most of the time.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Thus spake Mixture:

I still have difficulty believing you have a genuine reason for running XP though .... print & file server is no excuse.... ;-) It probably seems that way. However there is a reason - it's to do with space in the domestic office. The only physical option for my Canonscan 9000F is where it is. The only computer which can drive it in that location is the one at the amateur radio desk on the other side of the room. It presently runs on XP under which regime it operates the scanner.

Next month it will be a dual boot linux mint machine for the online AR requirements. But XP is still needed to operate the scanner and also for a very few quite specific offline AR requirements which W7 could not accommodate if it were to be installed.

Scanned files need almost always to be fed back to the (wired) local network printer which is connected to the new W7 machine at the main desk.

There is one other XP computer which has six years of emails on it (this one actually). They ain't being copied to the new W7 box which is getting a clean install of T'bird and Firefox. Only the AD book and the bookmarks are being imported to what will become the primary online desktop - running usually 15 hours a day. I still need access to those older emails from the older XP box from time to time - with facilities to produce hard copy. That machine also needs to be available to the local network, but nothing beyond that.

There might be other ways of doing this, but that's what the domestic situation will stand and I need to work with that. (I can't cook) :O

Apologies for the complexity, I can work with it, indeed I have to. And thank you for your helpful comments.

Rgds

FOR

[mixture]

However there is a reason - it's to do with space in the domestic office.

Huh ??!?!? :confused:

You have a machine running XP. You install Windows 7 or 8 on said machine.

Consumed office space remains unchanged.

[Fly-by-Wife]

I thought it was originally to be called Windows 2000
No, Windows 2000 was called Windows 2000. Something to do with the year it was released in, I believe.

XP was released in 2001, so Windows 2000 would hardly have been an appropriate name for it.

Of course, many people did say that XP was what Win2K should have been, rather like Win 7 and Vista, so perhaps that's where your confusion originates.

FBW

[BOAC]

Under Win7, you can run XP Mode, which is a Virtual PC running Windows XP
Yes, you can, but if it's internet connected it's just as vulnerable as any other instance of XP. - this is where it is quite confusing! You are saying that if, in W7, I run an XP installed programme (or even one installed under W2000) which uses the internet, the Win7 'security', plus patches will not protect the machine?

Surely the onus is on M$ to ensure that any internet activity actioned via the W7 OS is protected as much as possible?

Recalling Pinguin's post earlier, why is 'dual-booting' relevant in all this? Surely as far as the machine is concerned it is running the selected OS and is technically 'oblivious' to any other installed OS, be it Mac or Linux etc?

[Andy_P]

- this is where it is quite confusing! You are saying that if, in W7, I run an XP installed programme (or even one installed under W2000) which uses the internet, the Win7 'security', plus patches will not protect the machine?

Surely the onus is on M$ to ensure that any internet activity actioned via the W7 OS is protected as much as possible?

Recalling Pinguin's post earlier, why is 'dual-booting' relevant in all this? Surely as far as the machine is concerned it is running the selected OS and is technically 'oblivious' to any other installed OS, be it Mac or Linux etc?

Ok, first things first. When you run a OS in a virtual machine, its a valid OS and is therefore vulnerable to all attacks. So you have to be careful.

Host OS = Windows 7
Guest OS = Windows XP (XP mode running under Win 7)

Win XP mode is 'sandboxed' which means its independent of the host OS (in this case win 7) and any vulnerabilities should remain in the 'sandboxed' guest OS.. However, XP mode maps all you host OS drives, so any corrupted files opened in XP mode can affect your host OS. BUT, if you are running a fully patched host OS with good virus protection, you host OS should be secure enough to prevent any attack. Your guest OS however still remains vulnerable.

[mixture]

Essentially I say what Andy_P said.

I would add that you have to look at it in the context of Windows 7, in that when Windows 7 was introduced, Windows XP was still supported.... so the XP feature was introduced to ease the migration pain. However, now Windows 8 is the current version of the system people should have by now really been fully migrated over to Windows 7 and no longer be relying on the XP VM.

So yes, in essence, you should not be using Windows 7 XP Mode just as you should not be using Windows XP. In particular I would highlight the following bit from Andy's post ...

and any vulnerabilities should remain in the 'sandboxed' guest OS..

"Should" being the operative word.... there are exploits out there that can figure out they are in a virtualised environment and actively seek to work around that temporary obstacle in their path.

In the end we're talking about software virtualisation here, so the segregation is only as good as the memory management (and other aspects).

[BOAC]

Andy - very helpful, thanks. It would seem that those of us who wish to continue running those 'older' programmes should make sure that internet access is not available for them to be sure. Other than something like Zone Alarm where each internet connection has to be 'approved', is there any other safe way? The problem lies in being certain that any particular prog does not try to connect.

[mad_jock]

mixture to be honest I think your screwed. It doesn't matter how much the IT pros go on about it there will be millions and millions of XP computers out there for years and years.

The rest of you take a clone of your hard disk as the last update goes through in fact make 2.

Keep your data on an external disk and have a plan how your going to clean it. Then if you get anything clone back the OS and clean the data disk before plugging it back in.

This is either going to go three ways.

1. The whole of the internet will be screwed when the next big one goes through and MS won't do a thing.

2. Same as 1 but MS sorts it out mainly because they are supporting huge corporate XP setups anyway.

3. Bugger all will happen.

[mixture]

Other than something like Zone Alarm where each internet connection has to be 'approved', is there any other safe way? The problem lies in being certain that any particular prog does not try to connect.

Please read what us very experienced IT people are telling you !

When we say disconnected .... we mean DISCONNECTED.

i.e. never, ever , ever connected to the internet ever again ... I don't care if its only sometimes/intermittently/whatever...... we mean NEVER connected.

As I've said time and time again.... I don't care what third party "security" tools (e.g. Zone Alarm) you are thinking of running on your obsolete good for nothing XP system.... they are ALL vulnerable because the operating system and system APIs they rely on are vulnerable. You wouldn't build a house on weak foundations in the middle of a boggy swamp-like field.... well that's exactly what you're proposing when you're thinking of running "security" software on XP after April the 8th..... its utterly pointless.

mixture to be honest I think your screwed. It doesn't matter how much the IT pros go on about it there will be millions and millions of XP computers out there for years and years.

Yeah, and all you clinger on home users sit there and don't give a damn, whilst the rest of us have to spend thousands and expend thousands of man-hours fighting DDoS and spam attacks launched by your infested zombie computers against corporate networks and ISP infrastructure.

Thanks very much indeed. :mad:

[mad_jock]

That about sums it up btw i don`t own an xp machine. But everyday i work with them. They are provided for me and I know there is no plan to change them until the unit is replaced.

Unless there is a free upgrade path and even then i suspect alot won`t bother people will stay with it.

And they really won`t care how much it costs the pro`s

Lets face it there is still 30% of internet connections in feb are xp. You will be lucky if that drops below 25% by the cut off date. MS must be pooing themselves a bit because this could get quite spectacularly silly very quickly. As i bet there will be something just waiting to be released on that day. If i was synical i might even say MS would have an input into it.

[Booglebox]

MS are going to be making patches for XP Embedded until at least 2019... :E

[lomapaseo]

Yeah, and all you clinger on home users sit there and don't give a damn, whilst the rest of us have to spend thousands and expend thousands of man-hours fighting DoS and spam attacks launched by your infested zombie computers against corporate networks and ISP infrastructure.


if you can't or won't change it then live with it.

It seems to me with your ability to cajole and communicate that you might have more luck in setting enforced standards that the millions of us have to follow

[BOAC]

Please read what people ask and TRY to understand without going off on the usual rant.

You almost got it right, but should have writtenwell that's exactly what you're proposing when you're thinking of running "security" software on Win7 after April the 8th. - then you would have understood. I was NOT posting about using security software on the XP OS. It would have helped if you could have read my whole post through the red haze. Ah well! Your rants are effectively wasted, I'm afraid. I suspect there will be those who feel like running XP just to annoy you!

[FullOppositeRudder]

Agreed. My earlier post was not read properly (even though I typed it very slowly :rolleyes:), and a totally false assumption and useless response resulted.

One thing really worries about these promises of the end of the world for anyone who turns on an XP computer connected to the WWW on the morning of the 9th April.

They are asserted with such confidence that I find myself wondering if those who make them aren't in the know in some degree or another with the people who are writing these nasties. The more I read about this, the harder it becomes to evade that conclusion. I'm sorry about that, it's almost certainly the case that they aren't, but given the absolute confidence of those assertions it is becoming ever more difficult to dismiss an uneasy connection.

Fact is that millions of XP computers will be going on line on April 9th just as the were on the 8th. No amount of gentle coaxing otherwise within these peaceful walls will change that. If the online world comes to an end as a consequence, the media will go for the obvious target and it won't be pretty for the big M.

FOR

[Andy_P]

Andy - very helpful, thanks. It would seem that those of us who wish to continue running those 'older' programmes should make sure that internet access is not available for them to be sure. Other than something like Zone Alarm where each internet connection has to be 'approved', is there any other safe way? The problem lies in being certain that any particular prog does not try to connect.

Ideally, you should look to update your software so you dont need XP mode. Most stuff should run natively under win7.

In saying that, I use a program that wont run under Win7 at all. I could upgrade (its protel, electronic design software) but I just dont use it enough these days to justify the cost. Plus the new sofware is subscription based, you pay $8000pa. So its just not worth the upgrade. I digress..

Yes, you should avoid the internet if possible. The connection to the internet is also sandboxed, so it has to run through the host OS's firewall, so once again there is some protection. If you can, you should block XP mode from connecting to the internet. As mixture said, its possible for someone to exploit the Virtual machine and attack the host, but provided you keep the host patched and run up-to-date virus software you should be fairly safe.

[mixture]

It seems to me with your ability to cajole and communicate that you might have more luck in setting enforced standards that the millions of us have to follow

Its simple....

You pay me, I'll happily sit there hold your hand and dance around on eggshells waffling away paragraphs of nicely composed rose-tinted advice....

However, expect me to give you advice for free when you don't even fall into the "family & friends" category ? Sure I'll spend a little time here giving you advice, and of course it will be technically accurate..... but its going to be brief and to the point, I'm not going to beat about the bush.

And when it comes to certain topics, like Windows XP. There is no debate to be had.... no matter who you ask in the technical community, pro, anti or neutral Microsoft .... the answer will be the same you are taking substantial risks running XP after its expiry in April. I really fail to see what's so difficult to grasp about the concepts, and why the complaints about something Microsoft have given you years of notice for ! You've had the time to prepare, now just bite that darn bullet and make the switch !

None of the XP clinger-ons on this forum has demonstrated to me an ounce of viable justification as to why they must continue using XP other than their pure stubbornness....

[lomapaseo]

Its simple....

You pay me, I'll happily sit there hold your hand and dance around on eggshells waffling away paragraphs of nicely composed rose-tinted advice....

However, expect me to give you advice for free when you don't even fall into the "family & friends" category ? Sure I'll spend a little time here giving you advice, and of course it will be technically accurate..... but its going to be brief and to the point, I'm not going to beat about the bush.

And when it comes to certain topics, like Windows XP. There is no debate to be had.... no matter who you ask in the technical community, pro, anti or neutral Microsoft .... the answer will be the same you are taking substantial risks running XP after its expiry in April. I really fail to see what's so difficult to grasp about the concepts, and why the complaints about something Microsoft have given you years of notice for ! You've had the time to prepare, now just bite that darn bullet and make the switch !

None of the XP clinger-ons on this forum has demonstrated to me an ounce of viable justification as to why they must continue using XP other than their pure stubbornness....




Agree with everything you post

It's like my pappy told me, "do it and you will go blind eventually"



While the great majority will keep on using it until they need glasses.

You need to gear up to sell glasses and not advice :E

[Mike-Bracknell]

This is a tedious argument.

Personally, I don't think there will be a Big Bang in April. I think what will happen is that those people who say "aww nothing's going to happen, you're scaremongering us" will crow about it for a while and wallow in self-congratulation either that they've dodged a bullet or stuck it to the IT man.

However, slowly but surely there'll be the odd user here and there who'll find their XP machine doesn't work quite right. They'll call their IT guy and get one of two responses: either "XP? Are you mad?", or an IT kid who spends an inordinate amount of time trying to fix the issue only to either have it repeat the very next day or have to admit defeat.

The end user, not knowing their arse from their elbow, will chastise the IT guy for not making it work, and will dismiss the counter-argument of XP being inherently flawed from that moment on as unproven.

It'll therefore be a slow-moving mass of pain to a greater or lesser extent depending upon how much reliance is placed on the system by the end-user, how we'll they've achieved their own updating obligations, and how soon an API exploit becomes generally available.

All in all, it's going to be miserable for all concerned, but to what extent we will have to wait and see.

[rh200]

Ideally, you should look to update your software so you dont need XP mode. Most stuff should run natively under win7.

Dam I'm screwed, I'm still running an old XP with programs set to run in windows 95 compatability mode.

But then its not hooked to the internet anymore as I know for a fact its virus ridden:p And just run Linux instead;)

[mixture]

This is a tedious argument.

That summarises things nicely ! :D

I agree with your entire post Mr Bracknell ... some people will only learn the hard way.

[mad_jock]

I don't think they will.

However, slowly but surely there'll be the odd user here and there who'll find their XP machine doesn't work quite right.


So situation normal then.

The end user, not knowing their arse from their elbow, will chastise the IT guy for not making it work, and will dismiss the counter-argument of XP being inherently flawed from that moment on as unproven.


Again situation normal. And has been ever since we moved away from terminals onto mainframes. Well to be honest it was like that before then even though I only saw the tail end of them getting removed out of service.

It'll therefore be a slow-moving mass of pain to a greater or lesser extent depending upon how much reliance is placed on the system by the end-user

I would say extremely slow moving as the majority don't actually use them for much. If they were high end users they would have upgraded their hardware years ago.

Only way your going to stop people using it is if you make the OS useless for general use.

ie . Change the major web sites such and search engines, social media, mass email system refuse connection and be unusable to XP machines.

BTW I just finished work and in the course of this morning I came across 8 XP machines.

Then again there are quite a few NT4 machines still kicking around and nobody makes a fuss about them. But then again the numbers will be low enough that nobody can be bothered doing anything to stuff them up.

[henry_crun]

I'll happily sit there hold your hand and dance around on eggshells waffling away paragraphs of nicely composed rose-tinted advice....

Awwww - luvvit! Please, please keep it up mixture, your posts are the best ever prose posted on pprune.


avid reader but unaffected, am on jelly bean contemplating update to kitkat :}

[Capn Bloggs]

I just finished work and in the course of this morning I came across 8 XP machines.
So what Jock? I'm a user of XP and will be until the 8th. There may be some under-the-bonnet stuff that is out of date security-wise, but the rest of the new-fangled OSs is just nerds running the asylum. The best move I never made was Vista, nor Windows 8. Ooohh goody, it looks like a mac! Woopy Doo! :hmm:

[mad_jock]

I was just saying this idea of a mass transfer away from it is cloud cuckoo material.

If people can turn it on and it fufills its function then it will stay as it is.

[Ancient Observer]

Being a nosey person when bored in airports, I looked at what systems were up and running on a recent trip to Siem Reap and Saigon via Bangkok on Thai Air.

Thai are very definitely still using XP.

Getting a bit late for a global change by them........

I predict more customer service issues when they become infected.

[mad_jock]

I haven't been to a single airport in the last 6 months over 35 of them which isn't using XP on checkin and gate dispatch also for flight status.

And yes they are all linked to the internet because they use terminal windows to get onto the various databases for check in, load control etc.

[mixture]

I haven't been to a single airport in the last 6 months over 35 of them which isn't using XP on checkin and gate dispatch also for flight status

How many times do I have to repeat myself ?!? :ugh:

DO NOT compare yourself and your home PC with a large corporation with a large IT department that know what they are doing.

You don't know doodly squat about their network and you don't know doodly squat about their Windows 7/8 migration plans (which I can pretty much assure you they are almost certainly undertaking).

Just stop clinging on to XP.... there is no excuse for home users or small businesses to stay there.

[mad_jock]

with a large corporation with a large IT department that know what they are doing.

Actually I do because I have to get our company link working on them all so have spoken to the IT boys to get it working. Along with the pilot briefing package.

And they have zero upgrade plans because they are terminals that link into servers either a web link or terminal window. The plan is to have a central clone depository on a samba server, if anything happens they will blow another copy down to them using a USB to boot it with a link to the PC's identity. There is no local data stored on the PC.

Anyway we shall see how the netstats get effected after D day I suspect not a lot. Those that have will have already been upgraded those that haven't won't be doing it .

[Andy_P]

How many times do I have to repeat myself ?!?

DO NOT compare yourself and your home PC with a large corporation with a large IT department that know what they are doing.

You don't know doodly squat about their network and you don't know doodly squat about their Windows 7/8 migration plans (which I can pretty much assure you they are almost certainly undertaking).

Just stop clinging on to XP.... there is no excuse for home users or small businesses to stay there.

There is no excuse for business to hang on to XP either, probably moreso than private individuals. To do so is putting your business at an unnecessary risk, and any IT department that suggests otherwise is totally irresponsible, and dare I say ignorant.

[rh200]

Just stop clinging on to XP.... there is no excuse for home users or small businesses to stay there.

Well then, I have a question for some advice if you will. Whats the best way to deal with legacy software. Several scenario's, some will only run on 95 or 98, some will sort of run okay on XP on compatability mode. Some won't run on machines higher than XP. Software that is produced by OEM to support equipment and they don't change it much. Software that when installed on the same machines (laptops) don't work well together.

I sort of envisaged a toughbook with a few virtual machines set up with each respective os and OEM diagnostic software on it. Problem is you need it dumb proof for floor personal so its just double click on a icon.

One should not underestimate the amount of secondary legacy software out there that rely's on the old OS

[mad_jock]

any IT department that suggests otherwise is totally irresponsible, and dare I say ignorant.

They more than likely aren't saying that to be honest.

But the accountants are blocking it. They have memory's back to Y2K.

Even if they can hold off paying out the cash for 6 months they see it as good business.

One should not underestimate the amount of secondary legacy software out there that rely's on the old OS

I don't I can think of 4 applications our engineers use that can't be ported onto modern laptops because they rely on the Rs232 port. And upgrading the software costs a 5 figure sum. And they need the internet to fire the data up to the OEM's database. Must go and clone them again actually. 2 of them are NT4 one is win95 and the other 98. Including software upgrades it would cost in the region of 250k to replace them.

[rh200]

I don't I can think of 4 applications our engineers use that can't be ported onto modern laptops because they rely on the Rs232 port.

RS232, :{:{:{ If that didn't cause some hassals until the usb 232 converters became half consistent. Though I presume theres some that still won't play the game.

[cattletruck]

I actually see the need for change driven by the move towards 64 bit systems rather than a Windoze deadline. In the next decade we will probably be quite nostalgic about 32 bit systems as we are today about 8 and 16 bit systems.

A good business would deal with the upgrade issue as follows: All infrastructure needs to be life cycle managed including IT infrastructure. Either one pays small amounts in upkeep as they chug along or pays one large amount up front for a clean slate every 5 years or so - if done properly the costs should even out over the life cycle of the infrastructure.

For us personal users the IT budget is significantly smaller and writing off assets that are still working becomes difficult without a tax offset. I have a pressing need for 64 bit computing but I cannot see myself updating my standalone XP computer (not my XP laptop) which has thousands of dollars worth of software on it that all works very well.

I guess there will be many millions of users stuck in that same predicament for some time to come.

[Andy_P]

One should not underestimate the amount of secondary legacy software out there that rely's on the old OS
I don't I can think of 4 applications our engineers use that can't be ported onto modern laptops because they rely on the Rs232 port. And upgrading the software costs a 5 figure sum. And they need the internet to fire the data up to the OEM's database. Must go and clone them again actually. 2 of them are NT4 one is win95 and the other 98. Including software upgrades it would cost in the region of 50k to replace them.

There is a huge problem with this. The people who typically write firmware for embedded systems typically dont understand how high level operating systems work. They are used to writing software that talks directly to hardware as opposed to working with a layer of hardware abstraction. I know, I was the same once. So with win 95 and earlier, you could write software that talked directly with the UART for serial comms, but come Win NT you could no longer do this.

Enter the USB to Serial. First, you cant talk directly to the serial port. Second, there is another layer of abstraction that is the USB part, which essentially simulates a com port.

I have spent a lot of time, rewriting software that was written by hardware engineers so it works with modern OS's. Its not that hard. We have had 20 years now to sort this issue out. The problem being, most industrial hardware is designed to last more than 20 years. Any industrial hardware designed to last that long is not going to be cheap. AT some point, business just has to fork out the money to upgrade software. What annoys me, is most software from that era can be rewritten in a few weeks, it should not cost that much to replace.

[mad_jock]

rh200 don't start about it, its been a bloody nightmare.

I managed to get 4 applications working using usb RS232 port but the others will just not play at all there is a funny interface driver thingy. You can telnet into the device to configure it but as soon as you start mucking around with data downloads it just doesn't work.

if your needing a easy one the old aspire 1's have a proper port :ok:

The OEM say send us a PO and we will give you the software that does work we don't support that anymore. Oh and now the licensing is per engine not a company policy single license. OK so that's 46 licenses we will need and that's the cost of a brand new engine. Or I can buy on ebay 3 laptops of exactly the same model. And fire a clone of the original laptop onto them once I give them a new HD. Then one lives at the hanger, one in the fire safe, one at the CAMO's house and one in the bosses basement. Total cost 400 euros versus 250k.

Anyway I recon 4 out of 8 was pretty good. Certainly more that the IT department managed.

AT some point, business just has to fork out the money to upgrade software.

Not unless it breaks, and even if someone already has upgraded it and it costs 5k to upgrade and the old system still works it won't be upgraded.

Thanks Andy for that explanation I was wondering what the hell was going on. First time I came across it was 2 million worth of ATR sitting out the front and everyone ****ting themselves because they couldn't get a Pentium pro win95 machine to boot.

[Andy_P]

Not unless it breaks, and even if someone already has upgraded it and it costs 5k to upgrade and the old system still works it won't be upgraded.

Point is, its now unsupported, so its good as broken... In fact, if you need win 95 to run it, its been broken for a long time now. The longer you delay that upgrade, the harder it becomes. This is one reason I now I insist all our clients upgrade as each new os/dev upgrade occurs. Its much cheaper in the long run that way.

[mad_jock]

Exactly nothing has happened yet in how long?

Can you honestly believe that anyone is going to spend 250k to replace something which works everyday with no problems?

Those laptops will be going with exactly the same software on until the last of the type is turned into razor blades.

The fact is you say its good as broken but the fact is it gets used everyday and it works so until its properly broken akin to the engine compressor is seazed it will be staying on the wing. To be honest if any of the IT guys even attempted to touch them they would get there fingers broken.

[Andy_P]

mad_jock, I see the argument from both sides. I have to deal with it on a regular basis. Trust me, it gets that bad you can no longer find hardware that will run the software you need. People resist, it just makes it harder in the long run. Upgrading and spending money is a sad reality these days, you just have to do it to survive.

[mad_jock]

Thats why i have 3 spares for each essential laptop all fully functional and tested.

And the broken fingers has happened during a discussion about if the device was going to be earth tested.

Well I will have remove it if it doesn`t have a valid safety check.

No you won`t

<snap> as fingers removed from laptop.

Apart from when I actually worked in IT. At no point did they have any control over the computer hardware attached to any equipment that i have used. Some of the equipment the oem has been out of buisness for the last 10 years. Your not going to junk half a mills worth of calibrated engineering test equipment just because it runs only on NT or XP.

[rh200]

Point is, its now unsupported, so its good as broken... In fact, if you need win 95 to run it, its been broken for a long time now. The longer you delay that upgrade, the harder it becomes.

The point is you have equipment that is worth millions of dollars and even more in downtime that is reliant on half baked software made by the OEM to only work on there equipment and will only run on say 95.

Its not a mater of won't upgrade, its can't upgrade. Had this not so long ago, one farsical example up until a couple of years ago still required DOS. Hell being able to use XP on these things would be a god send.

Apart from when I actually worked in IT. At no point did they have any control over the computer hardware attached to any equipment that i have used.

Basically the case in the industry I'm using as an example. The problem we have today is a lot of the IT people these days are more of a ghost stuff and reload packages type people. A lot of the ground level diagnostic software is usually dealt with by one of the ground level end users who has the "nerd" skills to try and sort it.

[Andy_P]

The point is you have equipment that is worth millions of dollars and even more in downtime that is reliant on half baked software made by the OEM to only work on there equipment and will only run on say 95.

Its not a mater of won't upgrade, its can't upgrade. Had this not so long ago, one farsical example up until a couple of years ago still required DOS. Hell being able to use XP on these things would be a god send.

I understand the problem, dont worry! When it comes to commercial gear, its absolutely piss poor that manufacturers dont provide an upgrade path. I see it all the time, and old PLC used in a factory that is 30 years old and the only software is dos based. Factory is running around the clock, so why bother upgrading all the controllers? Down time = lost money, upgrade time = down time. Its hard to justify.

I had one case just recently, software written for DOS. I tried to make it work under XP, gave up and rewrote the software for Win 8. Took me all of 3 days. Lucky for me it was an inhouse product, so I had access to the source code.

Just thought of another example where upgrade to win 7 is a problem.

We have a piece of software that we designed for reporting and tracking of hardware faults on a casino floor using mobile terminals. The casino is doing the Win 7 upgrade thing at the moment, and when they ran out client side software, they discovered they cannot print. So I load it up on win 7, sure enough when you hit the print button, it no longer shows the print dialog box. So reading around, this is because MS has upgraded the print dialog box in the API to use the new Win 7 look and feel. To make it work is simple, you just have to tell windows to use the old interface. Easy fix, and we roll out a new version of software. Imagine this was a large software package used for commercial environment like a bank, not so easy to fix.

[mixture]

The casino is doing the Win 7 upgrade thing at the moment, and when they ran out client side software, they discovered they cannot print. So I load it up on win 7, sure enough when you hit the print button, it no longer shows the print dialog box.

And what sort of muppets do a production rollout without testing it first ? :cool:

Testing print functionality prior to a rollout seems to be a bit of a no-brainer in the scenario you propose !

[rh200]

I had one case just recently, software written for DOS. I tried to make it work under XP, gave up and rewrote the software for Win 8. Took me all of 3 days. Lucky for me it was an inhouse product, so I had access to the source code.

Yep, if you got the skills and the source code, at least your up the creek with something that can be used as a paddle.

[mad_jock]

And what sort of muppets do a production rollout without testing it first ?

Every roll out I did had something similar come up and some of those rollouts were designed and built by the likes of ICL in there day. Who I presume knew what they were doing.

Floor walking was a nightmare there was applications coming out of the woodwork that had never been heard of before never mind made into deployment packages.

And the day that they took the SNA gateway down to the mainframe was just bizarre. The amount of crap that was routed through that thing which nobody seemed to have a clue that it was going through there was unbelievable. Client IT was pooing themselves because some major stuff was off line and was wanting it put back. The drop down that night was pretty much irreversible because it had taken 2 weeks to write the scripts we had run the previous night to reconfigure everything. Plus the cisco guru had buggered off after working 24hours and wasn't answering his phone.

And yes we had spent 3 weeks testing with what we thought was the deployed spec.

I was Unix, Micro****e and amateur level routers/networks , we had a sprinkling of netware skills as well. The phrase of the day was "how bizarre"

Linked to my personal one of "which idiot moved the switch night to Tuesday instead of Thursday like I had planned for?" this was due to everyone being on flexi time and usually disappeared at Friday lunch. So my thinking was mayhem for 6 hours then get a snag list which we could sort Friday afternoon, sat and sunday. But o no that was over ruled for some reason which I never found out why.

Anyway the life of the contractor. If you don't want to listen that's up to you I get paid whatever happens and I don't have to live with the consequences.

[OFSO]

OFSO is back in town, and riding the UBUNTU wave on his new PC. Three OSs installed, UBUNTU, MINT, and on a separate disc theres....no, I better not say.

[exeng]

I particularly enjoy the input from mixture. Is he running a bit rich?

Mixture will blow a gasket at this rate to be sure - calm down old son.


Regards
Exeng

[mixture]

exeng,

Well, I guess I should probably compliment you on the wordplay there ! :D

As I said on my last post, I've resorted to applying the "some people learn the hard way" motto to those here who have XP stubbornness.

[rh200]

As I said on my last post, I've resorted to applying the "some people learn the hard way" motto to those here who have XP stubbornness.

Thats true to a sense, but there's those that don't have a choice due to legacy software issues that have no alternatives.

I'm sure theres a way to work around that if there was the expertise that could configure things at and indepth level But frankly most IT guys at the first level and one removed just don't have what it takes.

[Heathrow Harry]

I know some guys who worked in IT at a major UK Company - they were installing a completely new system and it took forever - every weekend they took the system down, installed the new bits and brought it to life on Sunday evening only to hear around 11:00 am on Monday that yet another hitherto unknown, but largely used and financially significant, application wasn't working

there was stuff there that had been patched in from the mid 60's apparently that people were still happy (indeed insistent) they used for everyday work

scarey stuff

[Andy_P]

And what sort of muppets do a production rollout without testing it first ?

Testing print functionality prior to a rollout seems to be a bit of a no-brainer in the scenario you propose !

Clearly you dont work in an enterprise IT environment ;)

There is thousands of bits of software to be tested, over tens of thousands of computers. A rollout of a new OS en masse across a large enterprise organisation is no simple task. Sometimes, things get overlooked. Sure, we could spend a couple of hundred million doing full system testing of everything, but interestingly enough sometimes you still miss things... Let me know when you are perfect.

BTW, its our software, not the clients and we have never tested it on win 7 as we have never had the requirement. Now the client wants to run it on Win 7, we have upgraded the software and fully tested on Win 7. This week it will be tested on win 8 and win 8.1, even though we have no need to do so just yet. Now I have not checked MSDN yet, but there is a rumour win 9 beta is due out in a couple of months, and I will probably also restest on that too. Happy?

[Cacophonix]

The Chinese don't appear to be hearing the Microsoft XP mantra... or are they?

Microsoft announces extended Windows XP support in China -- or has it? | Microsoft windows - InfoWorld (http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/microsoft-announces-extended-windows-xp-support-in-china-or-has-it-237531)

Caco

[OFSO]

Browsing vendors in London this week, I was only offered WIN8 as a private user.

I asked - if I was a business user ? Oh, you can have WIN7. Do you need proof ? No.

And if it's for education purposes ? Oh, you get a discount. Do you need proof ? No.

[mad_jock]

Users refuse to chuck XP as Windows 8 uptake flattens - Computerworld (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9246706/Users_refuse_to_chuck_XP_as_Windows_8_uptake_flattens)

I suspect this is going to get quite amusing at some point.

[mixture]

Clearly you dont work in an enterprise IT environment

I've worked in all sorts of environments large and small.

But I don't know the details of your project, so I think we'd best agree to disagree there..... I was merely commenting on based on the vague wording of your original post.

[Wigglyamps]

So I understand that XP support will cease after April 8th, I am tempted to stick with it for a while as I am going to have to replace my ageing computer anyway but can't afford it just yet.

Presumably there would only be a big problem if they discovered a major security flaw after the support has stopped which left computers vulnerable.

Also, when I do upgrade, I understand that Windows 8 is basically Windows 7 with touch screen capability which I don't want/need, so would I be better sticking with Windows 7?

Thankyou for any thoughts/feedback

Wigglyamps

[Andy_P]

Despite all the people who say you will die a horrible burning death and you computer will cause it if you dont upgrade, you will be fine. Not sure if the virus mobs will keep updating for XP, but if they do just make sure you stay up to date. You should make a conceded effort to upgrade why the time/money permits, as it makes it safer for you and prevents your computer being used as a method of attacking other servers.

Windows 8 is more or less the same as Windows 7. There is quite a few changes under the hood that the public does not see that makes it better, but for the average user it will make no difference. From your perspective, the big difference as you suggest is the user interface. For the layman, I would say get used to the new win 8 format, its better suited to those who are not technical. However if you are most comfortable with XP, then make sure you buy a computer with Windows 8.1 and get the shop to configure it so its like Windows XP.

[fireflybob]

Am in same situation - XP working perfectly!

Buying Apple Mac this week!

[Guest 112233]

With all due respect with Mixture et al.

What really matters is what the user PC population of China and other parts of the world do.

The statistics are estimates of course, without the margins for error stated, but something like 29 % of all active Internet connected PC's in use are still using XP. A lot! hopefully using revision SP3, which in many ways was a new operating System.

Fixes will still be applied to XP if you are prepared to pay for them.

Some mitigation may be provided by running as a restricted user when accessing the internet, but unfortunately its the normal background processess that are the real threat.

Mixture, among others, has mentioned the API's ie Application Programming interfaces, where human created program code meets the application services provided by the computer operating system.

These families of "low level" programmer / machine interaction functions are by good reason, shared across various versions of Windows and siliarly within other operating systems. Vunerabilities discovered, (not a trivial task) and fixed in later versions of operating systems, can still be leveraged in un patched older versions still used on the internet, causing trouble in their wake.

A glaring example (a much simpller case) is covered elsewhere on the Forums where a user has had the potential hijacking of an email A/C to send spam. Not the users fault, but it still happens - I have been lucky, but a few years back i had the data on a HD destroyed interactively, Anti virus, Firewall and all on XP SP3. That's an old fashioned attack now but the methodology can be used for much greater harm.

The big problem for Microsoft in particular is the persistance in the tail end of the user base still using XP. 13-14 Years on

"It works OK for me - Why change" is the mantra chanted as a barb, in the tech press, but the reality for many users; is that the Computers used represented a significant cost of purchase and cannot be easily be replaced.

CAT III NDB

[OFSO]

Wiggly, check your PM !

My apologies to all here. During the period between my motherboard failing the week before last, and a new PC emerging this weekend, with Ubuntu on one drive, and the other drive holding The Operating System That Does Not Dare To Speak Its Name, I dug out my very first laptop, running WIN98, and posted a few times on PPRuNe using that. Hope nobody caught anything.

[Mac the Knife]

Most people (including me) don't like the tiled Win8x interface, finding it irritating and clumsy on a desktop.

If MS persist in making it obligatory for Win8 AND want to get folks off XP then why not offer a cheap upgrade to the appropriate version of Win7?

Or is that too simple (and unlucrative)?

Mac

PS: Classic Shell - Classic Shell - Start menu and other Windows enhancements (http://www.classicshell.net/) - is free and solves many of Win8's interface problems but most Win8 grumblers seem to dumb to find it.

[Guest 112233]

"Or is that too simple (and unlucrative)?"

A hole in one there - There are generations of users who prefer the earlier approach to application selection - Done to death elsewhere.

Change for the sake of profit.

OK with the changes under the hood and PS Older Drivers seem to work with on probs with 64 Bit Versions of 8.1 [So far] for me.

CATIII-NDB

[Andy_P]

Am in same situation - XP working perfectly!

Buying Apple Mac this week!

This post is coming to you via a mac. Seriously, its one of the most overrated, over hyped, over priced pieces of **** I have ever purchased. Dont waste your cash. I have more grief with this POS than any modern windows machine. If you want the pain, you are better of going down the linux path.

Most people (including me) don't like the tiled Win8x interface, finding it irritating and clumsy on a desktop.

If MS persist in making it obligatory for Win8 AND want to get folks off XP then why not offer a cheap upgrade to the appropriate version of Win7?

Or is that too simple (and unlucrative)?

Mac

PS: Classic Shell - Classic Shell - Start menu and other Windows enhancements - is free and solves many of Win8's interface problems but most Win8 grumblers seem to dumb to find it.

It would seem you are the minority apparently. According to MS, the main userbase prefers the metro interface. In Win 8.1, they only reintroduced the old desktop to keep whingers like you and me happy...As a developer, I am forcing myself to use the metro interface as it looks like its going to be around for a while.

[mixture]

Seriously, its one of the most overrated, over hyped, over priced pieces of **** I have ever purchased. Dont waste your cash. I have more grief with this POS than any modern windows machine. If you want the pain, you are better of going down the linux path.

You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about and you obviously have inherent bias towards Windows and Linux.

I have used all three. I would favour Windows or Mac over Linux any day for desktop computing, Linux is just not ready for prime time on the desktop.... fantastic as a server with console interface.... but desktop... no way !

There is nothing wrong with mac and is is certainly not a POS that gives you grief.... nor is it " overrated, over hyped, over priced" .... its one of the most solid, stable platforms I've used over the years. They are robust systems with decent components that will take a beating and given that OS X works on a BSD backend you are basically hoisting yourself by your own petard saying OS X is a POS because you are effectively saying your beloved open source community BSD is also a POS !

[FullOppositeRudder]

According to MS, the main userbase prefers the metro interface. In Win 8.1, they only reintroduced the old desktop to keep whingers like you and me happy...As a developer, I am forcing myself to use the metro interface as it looks like its going to be around for a while. Yes, I've noticed that there has been a subtle swing to tiles in some form or another in a lot of internet sites.

And most advertisements for laptops these day proudly offer W 8.1 with a touch screen interface as though it's some sort of big deal. Perhaps it is - I've yet to be seduced - despite having a few android tablets and phones in the family.

It's seems unlikely that there will be a return to former more familiar (mouse click) selection options. At present of course one can use either mouse or "stab" options (I think), but could it be that some point in the future, the move is made right way from mouse selection altogether? :(

[Andy_P]

You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about and you obviously have inherent bias towards Windows and Linux.

I have used all three. I would favour Windows or Mac over Linux any day for desktop computing, Linux is just not ready for prime time on the desktop.... fantastic as a server with console interface.... but desktop... no way !

There is nothing wrong with mac and is is certainly not a POS that gives you grief.... nor is it " overrated, over hyped, over priced" .... its one of the most solid, stable platforms I've used over the years. They are robust systems with decent components that will take a beating and given that OS X works on a BSD backend you are basically hoisting yourself by your own petard saying OS X is a POS because you are effectively saying your beloved open source community BSD is also a POS !

Wow, you certainly have got me wrong!!! If I had any bias, its probably toward MS cause I spend so much of my working life with it. As for linux, I use it because I have to, not because I like it. To be honest, it probably makes me more money than anything else.

IF you are going to buy a PC/notebook you can do mucher better value for money than Mac is what I am saying. In saying that, I make money from it, so I dont really care either way. I have more crashes on MAC than any other OS these days. And BTW, OSX does not work on a BSD backend, its bastardisation of many things of which one is BSD.

As I sit here typing this message on my MacBook, the fan is going flat out trying to cool the machine down. After while, it will get so hot that it will shut down a core and start running slow.

Yes, I've noticed that there has been a subtle swing to tiles in some form or another in a lot of internet sites.

And most advertisements for laptops these day proudly offer W 8.1 with a touch screen interface as though it's some sort of big deal. Perhaps it is - I've yet to be seduced - despite having a few android tablets and phones in the family.

It's seems unlikely that there will be a return to former more familiar (mouse click) selection options. At present of course one can use either mouse or "stab" options (I think), but could it be that some point in the future, the move is made right way from mouse selection altogether?

These days everything is moving toward portable computing, ie tables and laptops so the old mouse and keyboard are on they way out. I have one of those Asus Zenbooks (FWIW, best laptop I have ever owned) with a touch screen. You dont use the touch screen much, but sometimes its a nice addition when scrolling through documents and web pages.

[mixture]

As I sit here typing this message on my MacBook, the fan is going flat out trying to cool the machine down. After while, it will get so hot that it will shut down a core and start running slow.

Aah... so you're basing all your harshness towards Apple products over your very unscientific survey of one.

Well, let me tell you, neither my current or my previous MacBook pro, nor those of others at work exhibit the issues you describe. The only time you can get the fan going on a MacBook pro is if you are deliberatley performing CPU intensive tasks such as video rendering etc. ... but the CPU tasks have to be pretty intensive ... in which case I would fully expect the fan to start running, I'm surprised you would not !

Just typing and browsing the internet, you'll never get the fan going... ever !

I owned my previous MacBook pro for over 6 years and it performed flawlessley throughout despite me working it hard. Same with my current one. The only reason I upgraded was to get access to GPU rendering in Adobe in the newer model, otherwise I would have happily continued using it for another few years.

They are excellent value for money.

[Andy_P]

Aah... so you're basing all your harshness towards Apple products over your very unscientific survey of one.

Wrong again buddy, just stating something that is occurring right now, on this particular mac. Dont forget, I work in enterprise computing, so I deal with a lot more of this **** than you care to know about.

[llondel]

You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about and you obviously have inherent bias towards Windows and Linux.

I have used all three. I would favour Windows or Mac over Linux any day for desktop computing, Linux is just not ready for prime time on the desktop.... fantastic as a server with console interface.... but desktop... no way !

I have them in reverse order. Linux, then Mac with Windows at the bottom of the pile. I'd put Windows 8 down with ME and Vista, too, at the bottom of the Windows collection now I've had the misfortune to have to use it for a week or so.

I have no problems with the Linux desktop, KDE is a mature and stable interface. I guess it helps that regardless of OS, I turn off all the eye candy and other pointless desktop animations and run a basic interface. For Windows I load Classic Shell and set it back to the good old interface too. My wife prefers Macs, so I've had plenty of experience maintaining them. My son, once I set up Minecraft on Linux on his dual-boot PC hasn't been back to Windows, "I think I've outgrown Windows" is what he said. :E

[Andy_P]

My wife prefers Macs, so I've had plenty of experience maintaining them

Wot, you have to maintain them? :E

[mixture]

Wrong again buddy, just stating something that is occurring right now, on this particular mac. Dont forget, I work in enterprise computing, so I deal with a lot more of this **** than you care to know about.

Well on another thread I see you saying Linux is a POS .... so I suspect you're just one of those grumpy old farts who is never going to be satisfied unless they've coded it themselves ! :cool:

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Mac the Knife]

"According to MS, the main userbase prefers the metro interface."

Well they would say that, wouldn't they!

It's hard to find anyone in the business users world who likes it.

Fine for a tablet but not for serious use.

And mix, the fan control in my old MacMini has been up the chute for a couple of years now - always on full and yes I did all the resets imaginable to fix it. Had to install a 3rd party fan control app to tame it.

My black MacBook has also not been hardware or software problem-free tho' running OK at the moment.

Macs are great but but very expensive and the Macs of today are essentially unrepairable - no problem if you've bought the (expensive) AppleCare Protection Plan which gives you a swap replacement but if you haven't and it goes titsup you just have to throw it away and buy a new one.

Gotta say - these days I think the best thing is to get the most generic gear you can and install an LTS mainstream Linux distro.

Mac (sic...)

:8

[maxed-out]

To all the IT gurus out there.

Is my current hardware suitable for windows 7? I have found these items on my pc:

Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3

System Manufacturer: PACKARD BELL BV
System Model: IMEDIA 2579
System Type: x86- based PC
BIOS: Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
BIOS version/Date: W7301 VP2.303 , 05/12/2006
SMBIOS Version: 2.4
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 2046MB RAM


Graphics:
Chip Type: Radeon x1650 Series, ATI Technologies
DAC Type: Internal DAC(400Mhz)
Memory: 512MB
Current Display Mode: 1280 by 1024 (32 bit) (60Hz)


Am I correct in assuming that by using a 64 bit version of Win 7, I can upgrade my RAM significantly or does that depend on the age of my PC?


Thanks.
mo

[Andy_P]

Gotta say - these days I think the best thing is to get the most generic gear you can and install an LTS mainstream Linux distro.

Pretty much my opinion too, except I say go buy the cheapest thing that suits you needs and requires the least amount of user input.


@maxed-out - your biggest problem putting win 7 on an older PC is the lack of drivers. Manufacturers of hardware tend not to go back and write new drivers for old hardware unless is very specialised stuff. If you want to upgrade, buy a cheap PC from Dell or your local chain computer store is probably a better way to go. Otherwise just stick with XP for now, which these days is fairly secure provided you dont go clicking on links in emails too often (or surfing for porn :E ).

[Saab Dastard]

maxed-out,

That CPU is 64-bit.

However, it appears that the motherboard is limited to a maximum of 2GB RAM. It's got 2 slots, and it appears that it only supports up to 1GB modules, DDR2. It's possible that a BIOS update may allow larger RAM modules.

It will run Win 7, x64, but it will be hamstrung by the lack of RAM - 4GB makes it a lot faster.

You will need to go to the Packard Bell website to see if there are Win 7 drivers (and possibly a BIOS update) available for your particular model.

SD

[mad_jock]

Nah actually mixture your coming across as one of those IT types who has a very admin encentric view on the way the world wrks similar to the bloke whoes fingers i broke.

You have your picture but not the big picture. You have your views on your ideal world but that doesn't fit with reality.

I have been running high end hardware since i was a finite element engineer and its never changed we run them at 100% cpu and disk and when we are generating images the video gets a kicking as well. Our runs especially none linear take days not mins. The code we used to use was optimised for crays, which roll royce used.

My salary was 22k as an engineer, the hardware and software was approaching 35k a year when i was 25. Silcon graphics extreme grahics and ansys.

I will admit i fired a screw driver into the apple talk port on the A1 plotter when we got it.

[Andy_P]

Nah actually mixture your coming across as one of those IT types who has a very admin encentric view on the way the world wrks similar to the bloke whoes fingers i broke.

You have your picture but not the big picture. You have your views on your ideal world but that doesn't fit with reality.

I have been running high end hardware since i was a finite element engineer and its never changed we run them at 100% cpu and disk and when we are generating images the video gets a kicking as well. Our runs especially none linear take days not mins. The code we used to use was optimised for crays, which roll royce used.

My salary was 22k as an engineer, the hardware and software was approaching 35k a year when i was 25. Silcon graphics extreme grahics and ansys.

I will admit i fired a screw driver into the apple talk port on the A1 plotter when we got it.

Not sure who you are talking too, but my main work is 2 things, consulting work for large enterprise systems and electronic engineering. From a development perspective, both jobs require fairly high end, high powered systems. I am one of those exceptions to the rule though. You will find that for 99% of people here, all they need is email, web and word processor. Any cheap piece of hardware will do that just fine these days.

[mad_jock]

No its not at you. You seem to be the type i used to want to work with.

My game after rollouts was rnd packet switching with enterprise destrubuted bata bases with golbal live servers where the load was with sat backup when the internet went tits up. The current live DB moving with the time zone from primary to secondary etc. The engineering stuff was ours short and sweet. Raid 0 ram to max proc has hard as you could get at the time and IT had sod all to do with the purchase or the spec. In fact most of the time it was unix boxes and they didn' t have root anyway. We had our own subnet and they got there arses kicked if there was any ****e on that subnet.

Macs with that broadcast crap were just pushed off and relegated to the extreme bollocks subnet. With a switch so the rest of us didn't have to deal with that crap.

The even thought that a machine isn' t running at .98 .99 from the day its live is a waste of resource to me.

[davidpotter]

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[Andy_P]

This might make some people happy Microsoft is bringing the Start Menu back | The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574830/windows-9-start-menu-new-desktop-experience)

[mixture]

Nah actually mixture your coming across as one of those IT types who has a very admin encentric view on the way the world wrks similar to the bloke whoes fingers i broke.

You have your picture but not the big picture. You have your views on your ideal world but that doesn't fit with reality.

No idea what you are on about mad_jock, and quite honestly I'm not interested in wasting any more time trying to figure out what you are on about and attempting to discuss it with you.

There is no "view on the world" to be had when it comes to XP. XP is obsolete and people insisting on using it after April 8th are nothing but stubborn mules. XP is obsolete and people are taking very real risks with their insistence on using it after April 8th.

I've had it up to here with this stupid little thread.... time to grab the popcorn and watch people learn the hard way !

[Andy_P]

You guys/gals will be pleased to know I still run some Win 95 and NT4.0 boxes! All off network though. Also got some OS2/Warp 4 machines scattered around the place (ATM's)!

hey mad_jock, apple stuff can be noisy on networks, but some of their networking stuff is pretty neat. Bonjour is excellent, likewise the spin off GNU stuff (avahi) is also pretty good. I am no network engineer, but I work with some and they do constantly have challenges with it on large networks with multiple subnets. It also makes up for a large amount of network bandwidth when you have a lot of devices. Its becoming a real problem with things like iPads. However, like you said, if you can segregate it to a small subnet then it really is a good thing. Mobs like cisco and motorola are doing grand things in this space now from what I have been told.

[Ancient Observer]

mixture - you know my view on this. As a pensioner, nothing that Apple makes is "good value for money". They appear to be good products, but they are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive for us poor people.

[Andy_P]

mixture - you know my view on this. As a pensioner, nothing that Apple makes is "good value for money". They appear to be good products, but they are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive for us poor people.

My basic rule for advising people on what to buy is, if you own a mac and are familiar with it, then stick with it. If you are familiar with windows, then stick with that.

As for quality, well mac is no better than any midrange pc based stuff. I have had pc laptops last 12 months, I have had ones last 12 years. Mac is no different. Ugly as they are, I would vote HP as the most rugged laptop, and ASUS as next. Asus stuff is probably better these days. Worst I would say is toshiba, which given they were the best in the early 90's is a sign that what is good now may not be so 10 years down the track.

[mad_jock]

Just got a rog asus g750jw for 999 quid. I stuck a ssd in and it really shifts.

Not really doing IT these days but have to sort the occassional issue out in the office. I have a look at what they have done every couple of months and sometimes reconfigure things when some bright spark has piggy backed hubs etc.

I think next time i am in i will setup an apple wifi network for all the i gadgets and stick it into the current apple subnet. I had forgotten about them getting into the pc network.

To be honest i don't per say care if someone has a mac or not. Its when they try and use some gizzmo productivity crap without seeing what bandwidth it uses.

[maxed-out]

Saab,

Thanks for the info. Maybe I should look at a new motherboard then.

Cheers,
mo

[FullOppositeRudder]

Interesting that Avast is requesting an online survey this morning from its users who are still running the XP OS.

Of most interest is that they seem to be promising to provide modules and protection systems which will guard against XP vulnerabilities which may be exploited after Apr 8th.

A bold step indeed....

FOR

[llondel]

Also got some OS2/Warp 4 machines scattered around the place (ATM's)!

I still have an OS/2 v4.5 virtual machine running.

[mixture]

Of most interest is that they seem to be promising to provide modules and protection systems which will guard against XP vulnerabilities which may be exploited after Apr 8th.

Please read what has already been explained on this thread a million times !

Avast is spouting utter bull, as is any other company promising to protect you after April 8th.

Without Windows being patched up, you are up :mad: creek without a paddle. There is absolutely ***NOTHING*** Avast or anybody else can do to protect you against exploits that make use of vulnerable APIs and other aspects of the Operating System itself.... how many times do I have to repeat myself on that point ! :ugh:

Please don't allow them to pull the wool over your eyes with marketing/PR nonsense... for that is all it is.

The only place for XP after the 8th of April is the bin.

[mad_jock]

Over 25% of internet users disagree.

And unless microsoft releases something which kills them i really can`t see that number dropping for years

[cattletruck]

I still have an OS/2 v4.5 virtual machine running.

I still run a virtual Commodore Vic-20 via VICE and PCVIC. Even run the games I wrote as a kid (even wrote a converter for extracting bits off the cassette tape).

http://arthurguru.users.sourceforge.net/extra/jetr_screenshot.jpg

I wish I was still as smart, maybe that's why I'm still hanging onto XP :ouch:.

Mixture is espousing the right info, we need to let go and move on.....

Personally, I'm surprised Apple hasn't temporarily dropped its prices to near cost to capitalise on this enforced change by Microsoft. One might think this would be a good time for them to lock in new users to its products.

[mad_jock]

Elite for the bbc micro still whips alot of the newer games.


None of us are actually saying he is wrong.

Just that he is living in cloud cuckoo land thinking that even a small minority of xp users are going to upgrade without something happening. And even if something major happens there will still be a load that won't change because they can't due to required software usage.

[vulcanised]

Chucky Egg on the Atari STFM is still good fun too.

[mixture]

Over 25% of internet users disagree.

Useless random internet statistics.

Where did they get the data ? Nobody asked me, and I'm an "internet user" :cool:

How many of the supposed 25% XP users are corporate/government users who are guaranteed to be moving away from XP in within 24 month.

How many of the supposed 25% have any sort of IT knowledge ?

etc etc etc ad infinitum....

[mixture]

Personally, I'm surprised Apple hasn't temporarily dropped its prices to near cost to capitalise on this enforced change by Microsoft. One might think this would be a good time for them to lock in new users to its products.

The OS X 10.9 upgrade was/is being given away free to 10.8 users.

I agree in principle it sounds like a great idea to do so but....

The problem is the business model doesn't really permit it. Since unless its an upgrade scenario (10.8->10.9 excepted), they don't charge for the operating system as such (unlike Microsoft where you can buy Windows off the shelf, or manufacturers pay royalties). With Apple the hardware subsidises the software. The cost of developing and maintaining OS X for desktops/laptops (and iOS for phones and pads) is paid for by the hardware.

Which is one other reason why people saying Apple is expensive are just spouting FUD ..... they use premium parts and don't cut corners in their hardware. On top of that, margins from the hardware go towards the software.

Also Apple probably know realistically that by the time they discount the business/government XP users, the stubborn users, the budget/developing country/"BOAC the Pensionner" XP users,that the number of new users they would gain from temporary agressive pricing is probably limited (in relative terms).

Apple are starting to make some efforts to start catering for those on a lower budget (e.g. the plastic versions of the iPhone 5) ... but they don't want to start cutting corners and going all cheap because that would risk brand integrity. I suspect we will probably eventually see a re-introduction of a plastic option for Apple laptops (and maybe even desktops, but I suspect they're waiting to see how the desktop game pans out in the industry).

Its a bit like saying BMW or Audi should go competing in the Ford Mondeo world. Sure a Mondeo is cheaper and it will get you from A to B.... but the cheapness shows in the parts and construction and it would be tiring to drive on long distance jaunts.

What people could look at doing under their own steam would be to get a WEEE recycling company to buy their computers (or just flog em on Ebay) and use the money from that to contribute towards the cost of buying an Apple.

[mixture]

None of us are actually saying he is wrong.


Glad to hear it. :cool:

Just that he is living in cloud cuckoo land thinking that even a small minority of xp users are going to upgrade without something happening. And even if something major happens there will still be a load that won't change because they can't due to required software usage.

I'm merely trying to encourage people not to learn the hard way. And as for "required software usage", for the majority of people it'll be irrelevant and stuff will run on 7/8 that ran on XP.... and most home users do little more than browse the web, send emails, write letters and play a few games..... none of which needs XP.

Its certainly inexcusable however for businesses of any size not to migrate (unless they're paying Microsoft for ongoing support of course).... of course there are edge cases, primarily with embedded systems such as ATMs and machinery control... but one would hope those systems have no ability to access the internet and are on locked down isolated networks anyway !

[cattletruck]

Apple are starting to make some efforts to start catering for those on a lower budget (e.g. the plastic versions of the iPhone 5) ... but they don't want to start cutting corners and going all cheap because that would risk brand integrity. I suspect we will probably eventually see a re-introduction of a plastic option for Apple laptops (and maybe even desktops, but I suspect they're waiting to see how the desktop game pans out in the industry).Almost every non technical user I've come across has stayed with Mac once they made the switch. It is fair to assume that most XP hanger-on'ers are of the non technical variety. I feel it's wrong for Apple to start making el-cheapo hardware as this puts it on the path of a race to the bottom. I also feel Apple are missing a golden opportunity in reigning in users who will experience Mac ownership for the first time and probably never go back. Maybe they should offer a price discount to those that hand in a genuine XP license.

Furthermore, with W8 being a supposed flop (metro interface isn't for everyone), Apple should have further seized upon Microsoft's bad marketting of itself.

[mixture]

as this puts it on the path of a race to the bottom

That indeed is one of the major problems in the broader IT industry, and in particular the part of the industry that deals with home users. What you end up with is today's marketplace where there is "choice"... but most of it is not worth touching with the proverbial bargepole.

Unfortunately most home users (and indeed many businesses) do not realise that a low price point does not necessarily equate to value.

Apple should have further seized upon Microsoft's bad marketting of itself

They could perhaps be doing a better job of getting the message across that by buying Mac you're not necessarily choosing between Mac or Windows.... Windows runs perfectly well on a Mac either natively (Bootcamp) or virtualised (VMWare or Parallels).

There are other areas they should highlight too.

[llondel]

Elite for the bbc micro still whips alot of the newer games.

There's a modern equivalent for PCs, Oolite (http://www.oolite.org/). Same basic game, just with better graphics and a huge expansion of the trading options.

[Keef]

Interesting to read Mixture's put-down of the Mondeo versus other car brands. I'm curious to know if he's driven one this century. Shades of Win ME?

[Booglebox]

Government signs £5.5m Microsoft deal to extend Windows XP support (http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240217389/Government-signs-55m-Microsoft-deal-to-extend-Windows-XP-support)

Tee hee. I eagerly await these updates to fall off the back of a virtual truck :} :cool:

[OFSO]

Interesting to read Mixture's put-down of the Mondeo versus other car brands

Surely Mr K, you are questioning neither our esteemed colleague's knowledge both automotive and computive, nor his right to express himself the way he does ?

OFSO (former owner of - among others - Mercedes, Range Rover and Porsche, and now very contented owner of current model Mondeo.)

[mixture]

Interesting to read Mixture's put-down of the Mondeo versus other car brands. I'm curious to know if he's driven one this century.

Actually yes I have. :cool:

Rented one at an airport this very year.... did a 250 mile round trip. Frustrating and tiresome to drive. No doubt a car perfectly well suited for pottering around town for shopping trips.... but beyond that.

Rented a piece of German engineering at another airport.... happily drove that all the way from California to Nevada.

If I'm doing a mile munching trip, with a lot of time on motorways and country roads, I'd much rather do it in something that's the product of Germany.

(Anyway, you lot made me digress... the original post wasn't really a put down... it was a figure of speech, so to speak).

OFSO (former owner of - among others - Mercedes, Range Rover and Porsche, and now very contented owner of current model Mondeo.)


But as you keep reminding us OSFO, you're an impoverished pensioner... so you belong in a Mondeo... the car of choice for your peer group I believe. :)

[mixture]

Tee hee. I eagerly await these updates to fall off the back of a virtual truck

The same fools who cling onto XP are the same fools who think its fine to apply security updates obtained in the darker parts of the internet. :cool:

[papabravowhiskey]

This morning on BBC R4's "Today" programme (45 mins into the podcast), they rolled out Brian Blick (?), editor-in-chief of Computer Weekly, who IIRC basically said that there's not much of an issue and the threat is low. He really underplayed the threat.
ARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!

PBW

[lomapaseo]

Even dark clouds have silver linings.

All it will take is for one government to block it's citizens from using the internet via an XP based system. Then this government can spread XP borne virusi throughout the rest of the world as a means of hostage to all those still using XP.

Mass suicides among the unwashed destitute are sure to follow :E

[Keef]

Actually yes I have. :cool:

Rented one at an airport this very year.... did a 250 mile round trip. Frustrating and tiresome to drive. No doubt a car perfectly well suited for pottering around town for shopping trips.... but beyond that.

I see. A representative sample of one. Statistically accurate, is that?
A bit like the statement further up Aah... so you're basing all your harshness towards Apple products over your very unscientific survey of one..

[seacue]

I support 6 PCs still running XP. All will have their Internet access disconnected by The Awful Day.

Then I'll sit back and see how many of the predicted horrors occur.

I wonder whether the dire predictions are partly a marketing tool to sell more-recent versions of Windows. I haven't been as faithful as I should about installing the very many patches which MS is still issuing after XP has been in use for more than a decade, but "my" PCs have been OK so far. And MS has said that they will be informing the protection software outfits about problems they find for at least another year. That won't solve the day-zero problems. How many of you have kept track of patches well enough to handle day-zero problems -- or would automatic updates from MS even be quick enough anyway?

[Andy_P]

They could perhaps be doing a better job of getting the message across that by buying Mac you're not necessarily choosing between Mac or Windows.... Windows runs perfectly well on a Mac either natively (Bootcamp) or virtualised (VMWare or Parallels).

There are other areas they should highlight too.

And therein lies yet another one of those problems with mac. So not only do you have to pay premium dollars for it, if you want to run half the software out there, you then have to either dual boot and pay for another OS, or run a virtual machine and pay for another OS.

As I said earlier, you can do a lot better with your dollars than buy a MAC. The current generation of Windows OS's is in my opinion more stable than OSX (and yes, I speak from experience working with hundreds of apple devices) and you can pick up a full system for a mere fraction of the price of a mac.

[mixture]

Keef :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

If you had bothered to read the end of my last post, you would have seen I quite clearly noted that my original post on the matter of Ford was **NEVER** indented to be slagging-off Ford.

It was a mere figure of speech... you know... comparing cars vs comparing computers.... that sort of thing.... it was never intended to be a serious comment.

So please, do me a favour and don't take it out of context.

Thank you !

[mixture]

And therein lies yet another one of those problems with mac. So not only do you have to pay premium dollars for it, if you want to run half the software out there, you then have to either dual boot and pay for another OS, or run a virtual machine and pay for another OS.

Oh Andy.

For every so-called "problem" you enjoy nitpicking and spreading FUD about Apple, I can find equal amounts (if not almost certainly more) "problems" with your beloved Windows and Linux.

So please... stop the fanboi nonsense .... if you've genuinely worked with hundreds of machines then you will know that EVERY platform has its pros and cons. There is no such thing as a perfect platform.

I too have used and maintained many Apple computers and don't share your negativity. They are solid, robust and OS X is a great OS.

But equally, there are situations where I'd choose Windows or Linux instead.... right tool for the job. But as far as home users go (which is the basis of this thread) .... there is absolutely nothing wrong with Mac and it is an excellent platform for the home user.

Apple platforms are not poor value for money..... they are no more poor value for money than a cheap POS Windows desktop you can buy from a highstreet shop. In American terminology the TCO of an Apple is not much more than the TCO of a Windows box.... there's more to life than just the acquisition cost of the device.... sounds to me like you need to learn that value does not equal price.

[BOAC]

While you are getting yourself 'sorted', Mix, only one 'n' in pensionner':)

[mixture]

While you are getting yourself 'sorted', Mix, only one 'n' in pensionner'

Heh... I knew it was a mistake to come back to this thread. I think I'm done here for good now ... I'll leave you lot of stubborn clinger-ons to stew in your own juices.

Thank you Mr Pensioner....glad you're making good use of your time proofreading people's forum posts. :cool:

[mad_jock]

With the decision to go open office I wonder if there will even be a mass migration by public office installations to another flavour. All it will take is one country to succeed and the rest will follow. The howls from the button clicking admins will be hilarious.

I suspect a mass rollout of linux desktops is more likley then they break the noose of microsoft than a mass rollout akin to y2k.

[Keef]

...frustrating and tiresome to drive...

... from a representative sample of one.

Comment taken in context, however embarrassing for the commentator.

[Andy_P]

Oh Andy.

For every so-called "problem" you enjoy nitpicking and spreading FUD about Apple, I can find equal amounts (if not almost certainly more) "problems" with your beloved Windows and Linux.

So please... stop the fanboi nonsense .... if you've genuinely worked with hundreds of machines then you will know that EVERY platform has its pros and cons. There is no such thing as a perfect platform.

I too have used and maintained many Apple computers and don't share your negativity. They are solid, robust and OS X is a great OS.

But equally, there are situations where I'd choose Windows or Linux instead.... right tool for the job. But as far as home users go (which is the basis of this thread) .... there is absolutely nothing wrong with Mac and it is an excellent platform for the home user.

Apple platforms are not poor value for money..... they are no more poor value for money than a cheap POS Windows desktop you can buy from a highstreet shop. In American terminology the TCO of an Apple is not much more than the TCO of a Windows box.... there's more to life than just the acquisition cost of the device.... sounds to me like you need to learn that value does not equal price.

And yet you clearly forget that I am a mac user... I own several and I often recommend them to people. I do not share your bias.

[Capn Bloggs]

TCO of a Windows Box? Am I supposed to put it in for a service every 12 months?

I see Malware Bytes claims it is going to look after those of use who refuse to be forced... :}

I'd be happy to pay 6.8 pounds for 12 months support of XP! :oh:

[BOAC]

Thank you Mr Pennsioner....glad you're making good use of your time proofreading people's forum posts.- it's a lousy job but someone has to do it - just think yourself lucky we pennsionners are here to keep you safe.:p

[mixture]

- it's a lousy job but someone has to do it - just think yourself lucky we pennsionners are here to keep you safe.

I guess that's a subtle hint that I have not yet thanked you for fighting in that war....without which I might have been German. :cool:

Anyway, guess I better make haste and go back and find and correct that spelling mistake of mine !

[BOAC]

without which I might have been GermanAppreciated, but some of us began to wonder if you were...................:)

I did enjoy that game of football at the trenches.

[Guest 112233]

The only problem that I've had with Open Office, was that in the version that I used (ver 3 from memory); Libre Office, was, when editing large documents i.e greater than 15 pages, Libre tended to become very slow indeed.

Note: I was using a Portable with 3 Gb of ram and a slow Dual core 1.8 GHz processor under XP or Vista + Norton or ESET and virus software.

Under Linux, the same spec P/C's things were better but still slower than Microsoft Office 2003/2007.

CAT III

[llondel]

Heh... I knew it was a mistake to come back to this thread. I think I'm done here for good now ...

Don't leave until after the final patch is released this week. That's when all the fun supposedly begins. :E

[OFSO]

He might not be German but he drives a BMW......

[mixture]

He might not be German but he drives a BMW......

Nein.... ich nein bin ein BMW driver. :cool:

I do like the Germans and their engineering prowess however.

[mad_jock]

I wouldn't say i am a power user of it so don't have a clue what open office is like.


I just read somewhere that vast quantitys of public service type organisations have gone onto it.

Linked with the fact that most other work is done via web apps i can see that from a bean counters out look a common linux desktop will seem very atractive.

Slight issues with support for a few years but then again we only used to need 20% of the support team than the button clickers needed for the same number if not slightly more machines and triple the number of users. That was on a NIS+ enterprise network.

It only used to take 2 people a week to design a roll out and we would blow down 1500 solaris boxes in one weekend. First time i saw it done i was waiting for mayhem monday morning. Not a peep from the unix users. Just the usual clueless ****e from the pc users.

[OFSO]

I do like the Germans and their engineering prowess however

Which consisted in my 25 years living there of hiring English for the design department and Turkish for the labourers.

Still, the German guys at Cleverbridge in Brabanter Str Köln are doing a good job, as are the ones at The Documentation Foundation, Kaufbeuren.

[mixture]

Still, the German guys at Cleverbridge in Brabanter Str Köln are doing a good job, as are the ones at The Documentation Foundation, Kaufbeuren.

Whilst we're patting German tech employees on the back, the guys on the mission critical support desks at Oracle München are also the dogs proverbials. :ok:

Each one of them knows that complex software inside out, left to right, upside down and absolutely love a good problem to chew on which they take ownership of and will ruthlessly see through until the problem is fixed. Of course they speak absolutely spotless fluent English too ! Truly some of the best vendor support I've ever had the pleasure of working with.

[Capn Bloggs]

It was with a heavy heart I shut down my friend, Windows XP, last night, for the last time. A bit like a funeral; we'd done so much together, had a few trials along the way but overall, rock solid with no complaints.

So now I'm off on a PITA "adventure"; where's this, where's that, how do I do this, how are my elderly friends going to cope...

Apart from getting full access to my 3tb data drive, nothing's new (OK, I accept there may be some under-the-hood stuff which needed updating) so to the nerds who like re-arranging the interface every couple of years to look nice n pretty...thanks for nothing!

[lomapaseo]

Well the nightly news got my wife's attention regarding the demise of XP. Of course the first question was what's XP

After explaining to her that it was what makes her computers work, she then asked what she should do about it. Simple I told her we could just replace the whole box with a new-use computer that doesn't run on XP.

She immediately replied why don't you

I advised her that she would then lose all those programs she had come to love along with all her imbedded passwords since she could never remember where she got the program from or even what her password was at the time.

She decided to keep her old computer and ignore the warning.

[P.Pilcher]

Well - I've just done the last XP updates so, presumably, that will last for a month. I have now managed to get a new hard drive installed in my main machine with a working, fully updated copy of XP on it and the Linux Ubuntu or maybe Linux Mint disc is just waiting to go in. If it all goes pear shaped then the old hard drive goes back and the opinion on the block seems to be to shell out for Win 7 until Microshaft issue an OS which everybody likes - er like DOS 6.22!.

P.P.

[mixture]

I advised her that she would then lose all those programs she had come to love along with all her imbedded passwords since she could never remember where she got the program from or even what her password was at the time.

Sounds to me like typical FUD spreading by the XP clinger-on brigade. :ugh:

I'm sure if you wanted to you could have migrated your wife over to Windows 7/8 without much effort.

[FullOppositeRudder]

I'm sure if you wanted to you could have migrated your wife over to Windows 7/8 without much effort. Only a single man could make such a statement :E

[mixture]

Only a single man could make such a statement

Oh the crap that comes out of people's mouthes round here !

Only a single man could make the stupid statement you have.

I really truly am done with this thread now.

[Duckbutt]

I really truly am done with this thread now.

Again! How many times have you promised that now, I've lost count.

[FullOppositeRudder]

OK, I apologise. It was an error of judgement and a total loss of SA.

I had come straight from Jet Blast where flippant off the cuff remarks are more or less SOP. I moved to this Board and failed to flick the switch. I had briefly forgotten that this is a very serious thread and any attempt at humor will not be well received. Again, I'm sorry. It won't happen again.

And just for the record - married 45+ years - to the same girl (and I'm still trying to get he to check her own email).

(sigh)

FOR :{

[mad_jock]

its an attribute of certain techy admin types Full.

It can get quite amusing sometimes when things don't quite go the way they should with them.

Its actually a big difference between Connys and perms.

As a conny you get over ruled with something which is blatantly stupid, and you just shrug your shoulders and move on with the knowledge that its not going to be your problem or if it does you will make a tidy sum sorting it out.

The joy of submitting your invoice at the end of the month and thinking

"h'mm that's 25 billing days, 15 mins per day sat on the throne squeezing one out. That will be over 6 hours and 300 quid, they want it they can have it"

And that can be XP or some dodgy ****e subnet setup and even that device of Satan an exchange server. But I did threaten to walk out when they said they were getting a Mac server on my Unix server subnet until I had seen that we had a decent cisco router coming in and I could gag the bastard into solitary confinement with its own line to the backup robot tape drive.

But some of the permys get their knickers in a right twist over things. Sometimes months after an "argument" it will be brought up even after the whole setup had been evicted from the enterprise. There are some conny's like that as well but they are really not very happy individuals and suffer from permanent failure of contract renewals.

[Booglebox]

that device of Satan an exchange server

I would disagree with you, but I have had the misfortune of setting up the latest version... :{

[mad_jock]

I even had it on my CV for my last 2 jobs as a conny.

"No knowledge what's so ever about exchange server, any mention of it by references is a complete lie"

It was asked about in interview. Only thing was the last job I ended up in for years outlasting quite a few perms. And I did end up having to fix the bloody thing though when the raid went tits up and the ickle button clickers managed to screw up pressing a button waiting for a light to stop flashing and going green. Then pulling a drive pressing another button pressing the button again and then leaving it completely alone until its happy.

That was 18 hours billable.

Thankfully the sparc2 with 1Gb of ram and a 500mb local disk was configurable in 10 seconds with a pre-prepared script to take the load and only 6 hours worth had been lost. Which I sorted for the next time by buffering 24hours to the exchange server in the future. It did happen again after I had left.

When met up with mates from that contract 4 years later they had dumped exchange. And apparently my sparc2 was still going strong. With its lead weighted keyboard, laser mouse on a mirror grid. Those Keyboards were something else you could bang nails into walls with them. It might even be still working 14 years on as I had soldered in a paper clip instead of the slow blow fuse in the power pack.

[maxed-out]

Hi all,

Is it possible to move programs I have on Xp to Win7 such as all the Oxford cbt stuff I own, RANT XL, Bristol GS course etc.

If it's going to be impossible can anyone suggest the best way to run a dual system whereby I don't allow XP to connect to the internet. Is it best to get a new HD to install internally or just install win7 to the same internal HD as XP.

There is a lot mentioned in ealier posts but if one can skip the IT jargon that would be super. Also happy to be recommended to a decent site for a tutorial if it's to complex.

Thank you.

[mad_jock]

Its a bit of pain to be honest. What size is your current disk?

You can't just move the programs you have to reinstall them again.

If you still have all the disks etc it won't be to bad.

[maxed-out]

Mad jock

Thanks for the feedback.

I have 50 gb left out of 120 gb but I can move loads of stuff to an external that I've got. Can't really re-install as Ive got to provide unlock keys again.

I think I'll run two systems MJ. Any gotchas?

Cheers
mo

[mad_jock]

get a new large disk for internal and clone the current disk onto it.

How to Clone a Hard Disk | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/how_5919364_clone-hard-disk.html)

Then install a copy of win 7 on as a dual boot.

Then go into XP and disable the network.

its pretty easy to be honest.

[maxed-out]

Thanks. Can't I just install win7 onto the new internal Hard Disk and forget about cloning the old one. i.e use 2 disks. Or am I missing something here.

mo

[mad_jock]

Your going to run out of space very quickly if your running two OS's and wanting to install programs in win7 as well.

Better to bite the bullet and get a bigger disk before you put all the effort in moving everything.

[maxed-out]

Ok got it. put everthing on one disk.

Cheers MJ

[llondel]

Get a new hard disk (makes life easier), install Win7 on it, and install something like VirtualBox or other virtual server software, then follow the relevant instructions to either set up a VM using the old hard disk or clone it as a virtual disk image. This method leaves your XP data intact.

That lets you run XP stuff at the same time as Win7. You can set up the networking for the XP side so it can't see the outside world too. You can use your stuff on XP until you get around to installing and configuring it on the Win7 machine. It's possible to set up folders on the Win7 machine that appear as shared drives on the XP machine so moving data between them is relatively easy if you want to copy application data across.

[mad_jock]

I think that might be an over tech solution to the chaps problem.

He has a installation which he needs to do training with and nothing else.

I know its a good solution but the chap obviously isn't that happy with IT "crap" and a clone with dual boot is relatively easy and involves minimal setup.

Max before you clone the XP disk go into control panel and remove all the software you not going to use under XP but will be using under Win7.

[maxed-out]

Thanks Mad Jock and llondel,

Think I will go for the simplest option and pay someone to come around should I get stuck.

Cheers,
mo

[mad_jock]

if your of a mind to pay someone let them do it from the start.

If you give them the machine without you fannying around with it, its a relatively simple job. Once you have half screwed it, it will take twice as long and mucho frustration to fix.

Don't go to PC world they will feed you some bollocks.

You want current disk cloned to a larger disk 500mb or 750mb will do fine.

Windows 7 or 8 installed as a dual boot with XP.

XP rendered safe by removing hardware drivers for the networking.

[BOAC]

Apologies for waking mixture, here, folks, but this (http://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-xp-is-a-much-greater-risk-than-heartbleed/#ftag=RSS56d97e7) is what 'TechRepublic' has to say today.

[mixture]

Apologies for waking mixture, here, folks, but this is what 'TechRepublic' has to say today.

:)

Yup... as the article summarises

At this point, spending no money isn't really an option -- it's just a matter of whether you spend the money to proactively address the situation or spend it cleaning up the mess after it's too late.

Keanini summed it up the pervasive threat of Windows XP: "Hunt down expired versions of XP and terminate it!"

So you lot of clinger-ons.... dump XP ... replace it with 7/8/Mac/Linux.... what I've been saying all along !

[mad_jock]

Well I suspect that 30% of internet users will give that the same amount of ignoring as they do your posts on here. ie complete.

Until the IT industry realises that people arn't going to do as they are advised for a variety of reasons and alter the way they do things they are stuff.

To be honest I suspect even if MS gave away free upgrades people still wouldn't upgrade. So your stuffed.

[Keef]

That's the reality, though.

I'm the "only game in town" when it comes to computer help for a fair number of silver-surfers in the three congregations here. Most of them are using XP because that's what the computer came with, and they have no intention of spending a hefty slice of their pension on upgrading to something different. So XP it remains, and will.

What I have done for them is to make sure that they have decent (free) virus protection, and educated them NEVER to click on links in e-mails from people they don't know, or on strange-sounding links from people they do know.

All have had the usual crop of e-mails from hijacked Hotmail and AOL accounts, and all have let me know that they did what I said and deleted them without clicking on anything. I've only had to to one "disinfection" in the last year or so.

If Hotmail and AOL can screw up to the extent that complete ID and password lists are compromised and the users' address books hijacked for spamming and virusmail, I see continuing to use XP as "undesirable, but not the biggest problem in town."

[BOAC]

The problem is, Keef, that the 'baddies' will eventually find a way to sucker your SS's into catching a cold - and they are very unlikely to know it has happened. Isolation from the internet is the only safe option long term.

I suspect the 'shock/horror' your oldies will feel having to shell out for 7 or 8 (or 9) may well dent M$'s attractiveness to the general public - and industry judging by the reported proliferation of XP there.

[Keef]

Indeed, BOAC. Most of these delightful people use the internet extensively to keep in touch with children and grandchildren in far places, so "no internet" isn't a viable option.

So far, the stuff that might have caught them unawares has been stopped by anti-virus and their own caution. They've seen the "hijacked" Hotmail and AOL stuff, and in many cases spoken to the hijackees, so they know Keef is telling them the truth about the risks.

XP lacunae are only one of several sets of traps they have to be protected against: the biggest single effort has been to stop them updating anything from those providers who bundle all sorts of crapware into packages (Adobe being the worst but not only offender). Browser hijackers scare the daylights out of them - these are totally non-computer-literate people.

[mad_jock]

keef I know its a pain but with those sort of users it worth thinking about giving them Linux.

They will only use a set number of apps most of thier stuff is web based.

The other advantage is you can set them all up so you can remote access them at home as well.

At lets face it most of the time your just going to go in and type "sudo yum update" and that's it.

I am actually against people moving away from XP. I just don't think its going to happen for multiple reasons.

[Keef]

MJ, I installed Linux on a PC here a few years ago. It took me days to get it working properly - after which, yes, it was impressive. I had to learn a whole load of batch file processing stuff that took me back to Windows 3.1 and the late 80s.

Then the graphics card died and was replaced with a different model: it refused to have anything to do with anything. I had to install Windows to get the thing working again.

I'm not going there again, nohow. Not even for a dozen or so lovely people who aren't into computers. I could see several weeks of my life trying to sort a batch of different machines with a load of historical and treasured stuff on them. If anything gets lost, it's my fault.

If they do something silly with their XP installations, it's not my fault: I'm the chap who turns up and fixes it for nothing more than a cup of coffee. An afternoon a year isn't too bad.

[le Pingouin]

Any way you can encourage them to put away a couple of quid a week? They'll have saved up for a new version of Windows by Christmas.

[BOAC]

It took me days to get it working properly - ditto here - Ubuntu 13 - no network connection. Back to 12, same, not even switching on the HP 510 wireless card. Eventually found an obscure fix on the internet. Way to go, Linux!

[mad_jock]

please try it again. But I can completely understand why you don't want to go near it. But at least you will have a plan for if it all goes pete tong.

Personally I like fedora but there are more user friendly versions out there.

Just make a live OS usb stick and boot it using that and see if everything works.

I haven't had to go searching for drivers for a good 5 years with any Linux installation. If its an old machine with XP on it I would be very surprise if the hardware required any tinkering of drivers to get it all working.

[Keef]

Any way you can encourage them to put away a couple of quid a week? They'll have saved up for a new version of Windows by Christmas.

These are old age pensioners. If they could put away a couple of quid a week, they'd have better things to spend it on than Microsoft. Most of the computers they are using are "hand me downs" from grandchildren and the like.

[Keef]

please try it again. But I can completely understand why you don't want to go near it. But at least you will have a plan for if it all goes pete tong.

Personally I like fedora but there are more user friendly versions out there.

Fedora was the only one of the several flavours that I tried that I'd bother with again, based on experience then. Ubuntu wouldn't let me do stuff I wanted to do (and decided to change itself to Kubuntu for some reason). Some of the others had a pretty awful GUI (or none). Slackware appealed to the geek in me in the early days, but I think that's long extinct now anyway.
They were all a pain in the neck to network - I had to mess with long strings of samba stuff, some of which worked and some didn't.

And then the graphics card died. The new card worked "just like that" with Windows, and threw up all sorts of error messages in Linux. That was the end of the Linux experiment for me.

I do keep a Knoppix CD for unscrambling damaged Windows installations. A friend of mine (now retired, but until recently a Professor at London University) had a load of research stuff on his PC; the PC went on the blink, and he found that his regular "offline" backups hadn't been working correctly. Knoppix saved the day. That is a very useful tool!

I tried several versions of "Linux bootable sticks" last year. None would sway me away from Windows 7.

[Andy_P]

The biggest problem with linux is that there is just too many ways to do everything. This is great if you like playing, but its not much fun when you just want to use a computer. When you have a problem, you end up scouring the ends of the internet to find a solution.

[mad_jock]

Must admit I went for fedora about 8 years ago now and haven't had many issues with it at all.

In fact my aspire one hasn't had any tampering with for years. It just gets a yum update and it always goes through with no problems. In fact it must of had 5 full OS upgrades using that method.

I just followed one of the "prefect fedora desktop" aka

The Perfect Desktop - Fedora 18 XFCE | HowtoForge - Linux Howtos and Tutorials (http://www.howtoforge.com/the-perfect-desktop-fedora-18-xfce)

type things.

Must have done 20 odd machines now without any issues.

Network I will admit I have a old but pretty functional knowledge of all the various *nix config files, so I think I had one intel wifi card 5 years ago that was a pain in the bum. But after 30seconds I fired in a new one of a different make swapped from another laptop and it worked a treat. Put in another repo and got the correct driver and then swapped it back.

To my knowledge none of the machines I have set up have needed any tampering with after setup. They just do what they are intended for and updates go through and they continue to work.

As you say not much point if there is a usable Win 7 installation you can use. It was just a suggestion for the XP users in your flock.

[OFSO]

I was in my local Ford dealer's spares department today - Ford are the biggest seller of new cars in Spain with the PRC cars - and was impressed by their software. Give the guy your registration or even your name, up on the computer screen comes all the details of your car, and then devolves into lists, graphics, pictures, instructions. Ordering the moulding I wanted was simplicity itself.

Only thing is, Ford's spares and parts software (certainly in Spain) was written for and runs on....XP.

[seacue]

Sure, monthly updates for XP programming flaws have been discontinued.

While there have been dire warnings about XP, has anyone heard of any ACTUAL attacks that weren't caught by antivirus systems, etc.

My XP PCs are not connected to the Internet. I keep them because some important software won't run on Win 7.

seacue

[mixture]

While there have been dire warnings about XP, has anyone heard of any ACTUAL attacks that weren't caught by antivirus systems, etc.



Here we go again ! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Anti-virus and any other software WILL NOT protect you from XP vulnerabilities. They all rely on the OS and its APIs. I do wish people would take 20 seconds to get that into their heads !

Its only a matter of time before we hear publicly .... if, not when ! As time goes on, there will be more and more exploits released of increasing seriousness.

I suspect there have already been zero-day exploits but the clinger-ons probably are to busy being artificially smug to notice.

[mad_jock]

If you show more empathy you will have more success at getting people to move away from xp.

You will note I am trying to get them away with a solution. But with a more sympathetic outlook to the situation.

[BEagle]

OFSO wrote: Only thing is, Ford's spares and parts software (certainly in Spain) was written for and runs on....XP.

It was the same at a Mercedes-Benz bodywork repair centre I visited today - WinXP running on their core system.

mixture and other techie geeks, the simple fact (as mad_jock has explained very well) is that the day-to-day user who simply does a little e-mailing, web-surfing and who cannot afford to throw away sound equipment has no idea about Micro$oft's decision. Those who perhaps do then take one look at the Windows 8.1, 8.1 update, 8.2 chaos and Windows 8.1 support nonsense and throw their hands up in confusion.

As has been said, how many other companies are prepared to abuse their dominant market position in such an obscene manner? M$ really seem hell-bent on handing their non-geek customers over to Apple....:uhoh:

[mad_jock]

BEagle mate that sort of user if the perfect one for the transition to Linux and to cut the tie forever to microtwat.

Your system speed will seem if its a new machine. Most software is free. Unless you have a xp software only application you need to use its definately an option.

[mixture]

If you show more empathy you will have more success at getting people to move away from xp.

You will note I am trying to get them away with a solution.

As someone with technical knowledge, they are turning to you for advice.

If you sit there and empathise away, telling them not to worry, then you are sending them the wrong message. Its a lose-lose situation, they are not getting the correct advice and you are not helping your own cause when you have to then go tidy up the mess later.

As that article OSFO linked to said. Not spending money is not an option. Its simply a case of whether you spend it proactively now (i.e. by migrating to other OS) or you spend it later (i.e. clearing up the mess you've caused by being a clinger-on).

[Keef]

Here we go again ! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Anti-virus and any other software WILL NOT protect you from XP vulnerabilities.

Stamping the feet rarely convinces anyone to change their mind.

I think most of us are aware that ONCE THE VIRUS HAS GOT IN, then AV and other software won't protect against it. However, it's got to get past the router and its firewall, and then the AV, and then be clicked on (or activated in another way) before it can do its thing. That's the same whether it's an XP virus, or a Win 7 one, or a non-specific one.

If I banged my head on the wall at these folks, their bottom lips would quiver and they wouldn't talk to me any more. Right now, I'm the chap who sorted out their recalcitrant PCs, installed (free) anti-virus, and set up their broadband for them. In most cases I also got Skype working so they can chat with the family. They trust me.

They aren't going to spend a week's pension money on Microsoft stuff (especially not after they've heard the horror stories from the treasurer, who bought a Win 8 laptop a few months ago). I'm also not going to spend the next few weeks of my life going around installing Linux and then being forever after responsible for everything that goes wrong with their (old) machines. That isn't my primary role in this community.

[mad_jock]

Your coming across as a OCD geek mixture.

As the rev keef who I might add has more human interaction training that all the admins in the UK I suspect. Your method off interaction to get people to change will do more harm than good.

[mixture]

and then the AV, and then be clicked on (or activated in another way) before it can do its thing. That's the same whether it's an XP virus,

No Keef.

I think you have to go back and read up on your fundamentals.

Anti-virus and all other software runs on top of the Operating System and relies on APIs and other aspects of the Operating System to function.

Compromised OS integrity equals compromised software functionality. No two ways about it... that's the hard facts. They WILL have a way to bypass Anti-Virus... not IF... but WHEN, and that "when" will come sooner than the cling-on brigade would like to hope ! :)

Just look at all the EXTRA security measures you get in operating systems later than XP if you want another good reason to upgrade :

http://blogs.technet.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/550x0/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-00-50-43/7317.Untitled.png
(Image courtesy of this article (http://blogs.technet.com/b/security/archive/2013/08/15/the-risk-of-running-windows-xp-after-support-ends.aspx)... which should be one of many on the required reading list for the cling-on brigade)

[mixture]

Your coming across as a OCD geek mixture.


The fact you have to resort to name-calling means you've realised you've lost the argument and are desperately trying to save face, when instead you're just digging yourself into a deeper hole.

[vulcanised]

I think Mr mixture's computer has been hacked.

Over two weeks ago, and not for the first time, he said

I really truly am done with this thread now.

It's obvious that someone is using his id and we should not blindly assume that all these subsequent posts have come from him.

[mixture]

:cool:

I blame OSFO (I think it was) for mentioning my name and citing an article that supported my point of view.

Thus I felt it merited a reply.

I then allowed myself to fall pray to the madness of jock and his sidekick from Dibley ....

But, I know I've said it before, but this time I mean it. I've well and truly had it with the cling-on brigade and am now leaving you lot to stew in your own juices.

Good riddance.

[exeng]

Mixtures back in the game and running on high octane. We are lovin' it, Mixture's lovin' it.

Come on it is game on again!


Regards
Exeng

[llondel]

If the OAPs have older machines then Linux would probably run quite well on them. I upgraded my father to Linux from Window 2000 (!) a few years back. He wanted to stick with Windows until I told him what a retail copy would set him back. I can fix most of his problems remotely, even to the point of getting his scanner working, when I told him to leave something on it so I could have something visible to scan and check the resulting file.

If it's a bit of email, web surfing and occasional letter writing, Linux is cheaper and easier, especially on older hardware as used for XP. It's bleeding-edge new hardware without drivers that lets it down, and that's the manufacturers' fault for not making them available, despite providing several flavours of Windows driver. Strangely enough, Windows sometimes has the opposite problem, new OS doesn't have drivers for older hardware because the manufacturer didn't bother to write one.

[mad_jock]

Far from digging a hole I would think that my message is having more of an effect than yours.

And if you look I am not saying that people shouldn't change. I am just stating the fact and reasons why they won't even if the upgrade was absolutely free.

[OFSO]

Of the computational engines in my household, all have an anti-virus scan at least once a day (except the Linux netbook which is currently asleep).

Some machines have double scans morning and night from two different antivirus.

The only machine which has thrown up a malware detected notification since support for XP was withdrawn is a WIN7 laptop.

[Keef]

No Keef.

I think you have to go back and read up on your fundamentals.

I do that every morning, and preach on them most Sundays.

However, to get into my computer (and those of the folks in question), the "nasty" has to get through the firewall in the router. That comes before any APIs in the computer. Or do firewalls not work if the connected computer is using XP?

However, the argument is now in a spin. The folk in question are using XP and aren't going to change. I'm not going to spend weeks swapping them to Linux (not even Linux Mint), and they aren't going to spend a large chunk of pension on Microsoft products. Their firewalls and AV are all they have between them and eternal perdition. So far so good...


The only machine which has thrown up a malware detected notification since support for XP was withdrawn is a WIN7 laptop.

I get several per day from Avast, invariably referring to one of those pesky Russian spam e-mails with virus attached. They are obviously trying to convert me...

[cattletruck]

It wouldn't surprise me if M$ executives leak out future WinXP exploits to drive up profits - after all that's what their busine$$ is all about.

I find that security features table above to be very interesting. Seems to be a lot of obfuscation of the execution image in the heap, or in layman's terms, a sign of a bad original design.

It sure is very hard to change something when you don't have the funds. I recall years ago people used to change their laptops readily providing a trickle down effect that would eventually filter down to the technologically challenged demographic. It all seems to have slowed down since the GFC.

If only some smart cookie would quickly "invent" LinuXP :8

[Ancient Observer]

I DO NOT want Mixture on here coming across as all sympathetic and empathetic and cuddly.

I want the usual strident opinionated simple messages. Even the wrong ones about we all know who.

We'd miss him/her if they went away.

[le Pingouin]

cattletruck, there's no need for MS to do anything of the sort. All they have to do is release patches for their supported OSes and the blackhats will take care of the rest. A good percentage of the flaws will also affect WinXP so they reverse engineer the patches (as they've always done) and bingo! Flaw after flaw after flaw that will never be patched on XP.

[OFSO]

I blame OSFO (I think it was) for mentioning my name and citing an article that supported my point of view.

My fervent and grovelling apologies to all here for doing this. It won't happen again.....

[mad_jock]

Oh and thanks very much for the oolite game suggestion.


Thanks to you it has now given the next generation of kids the BBC elite experence. Think that's over 10 machines it's now going strong on. Youngest player 10 oldest 75.

[BEagle]

Good old BBC Master allowed me to create all the AAR rendezvous data for the RAF (and NATO) 23 years ago, having taught myself how to convert trigonometry into BBC Basic. I still have the 'Parrot double sided double density soft sector 96 T.P.I. unformatted' 5" floppy disk, but nothing on which to run it!

Of course an ever-generous MoD paid me the grand sum of £0.00 for my work - which is still in use today!

[Guest 112233]

Enthroned in my rightfull position in the middle of the circle of the 9th level of Hades (i.e a vista user) the references by parties anon, to "Dibley" and "Perdition" mean that the thread is becominng a bit of a Divine Comedy.

Keef: This is what 12-15 Years of IT Support does to you. Hence my ensconsement.

Mixture: Keef has through his work, a perspective that corporate IT Peop's like I became, do not have. The Silver Surfer's unfortunately are often dealing with a technology that is totally alien to their perspectives and previous experence.

To all: I always thought Perdition referred to purgatory and not hell its self.

Mint: Is the way ahead or we are all on "The Road to Perdition"
CAT III

[OFSO]

in the middle of the circle of the 9th level of Hades

Ah yes, with the Sowers of Discord.

"Who though, with words unshackled from the rhymes
Could yet tell full the tale of wounds and blood*
Now shown me, let him try ten thousand times ?**
Truly all tongues would fail, for neither could
The mind avail, nor any speech be found
For things not named nor understood".***

* "Wounds and blood" sustained in trying to get Vista to run at a reasonable speed on an early HP laptop.

** An early reference to dear Mixture who has ten thousand times warned us of the dangers of staying with XP.

*** Possibly Ubuntu or Mint

[Guest 112233]

A Problem - I had to get of a Bus once. People were complaining about the smell of sulfur. Try making Vista work on a 7 yr old Vostro Lap top.

CAT III

[MidlandDeltic]

Strangely enough, Windows sometimes has the opposite problem, new OS doesn't have drivers for older hardware because the manufacturer didn't bother to write one.

Or, in the case of Epson, write one but don't release it to individual markets! I have an Epson printer/scanner, about four years old so in no way end of life, which has a US equivalent. Epson HAVE released Win 8 drivers etc for the US version, but NOT the EU version, suggesting instead I buy a new device (adding further cost to this whole Win 8 upgrade rip-off). Fortunately, I looked on the MS forums, which suggested running the original install disks in compatibility mode. This solved the issue - they ran bizarrely as Vista SP2 - but the drivers and software all work.

Epson support was quite frankly, cr@p. Another example of the IT industry trying to rip off the consumer.

[mixture]

Epson support was quite frankly, cr@p.

Yup, I gave the team at Espon HQ a thorough going over after I was told I had to wait 30 days for some bod in Japan to manually authorise access to software for a newly purchased scanner.

Software obtained, the scanner works pretty well though. :cool:

Another example of the IT industry trying to rip off the consumer.

There are two sides to every story. The Joe Bloggs the Consumer doesn't help things by encouraging the IT industry in the "race to the bottom", the consumer only ever wants the price point to go in one direction.

That's why Apple maintain their high quality, and everyone else produces rubbish in their standard ranges (go up the price points, and of course you can find quality in the PC arena too).... most of the stuff you find in the shops or airport duty free is not worth touching with a bargepole.

Microsoft are NOT ripping off the consumer by making XP obsolete though ! They've given you more than enough notice .... they've brought out three operating systems in the intervening period.... they can't support everything for ever.

Drat. Just realised I posted in this idiotic thread again. Quiet Sunday I guess. Definitely the last time ever, I'm not coming back here.

[mad_jock]

they've brought out three operating systems in the intervening period

But unfortunately the consumer considers them utter crap from the user perspective.

Maybe if they brought out a win 8.xp with the same front end they might get some movement.

Oh and a method of upgrading without loosing all the already installed applications.

[Andy_P]

That's why Apple maintain their high quality, and everyone else produces rubbish in their standard ranges

So today I am using a macbook air to test some software I am in an airconditioned office. In fact, I am using that MBA to type this post. When it gets a bit hot, the kernel starts taking back CPU cycles in order to cool it down. As a result, any application you are using starts running like a dog. This is a common complain from the MBA users in the current org I am working with. Easy fix is to stop the kernel taking back CPU time, but surely that has to be detrimental to the reliability of the machine or why would Apple do it? The cooling system design in the machine is clearly flawed.

Dont be fooled. Not everything apple makes is of high quality. Much of their stuff has design flaws, like every other product out there.

[mad_jock]

Andy its design compromise which every engineering design has to do.

If you want decent cooling you go twin fan huge ducted heat sinks. This doesn't work well with the style department.

But I would agree about the quality side of things. There are some things that are very well made but others are lacking.

But controlling heat by dropping the performance is perfectly acceptable. I no I wouldn't advise fiddling with as you can do an Acer and cook the innards resulting in a very short service life.

If you want a machine which runs cool what ever the load you have to go for something like a ASUS ROG with its twin fans. But you have to sacrifice portability, the thing is 5kg. And also the slim line style that apple users seem to want.