Question: re-issue of JAA PPL from the US

[grosfion]

I need to get my CAA JAA PPL re-issued by mid of this year, since it is expiring.Since two years I live in the US (NYC) and fly there with my foreign based FAAPPL license. My SEP (UK) rating has expired but I have a current BFR and a US medical.

So can I just apply from the US for a re-issuance for my UK license or do Ihave to find an instructor/examiner here in the US to sign my application.


Thanks,
Marcus

[worldpilot]

I experienced the same situation in which you are. My SEP Rating expired and I had to get a CAA certified examiner to renew my SEP Rating.

Here is what you need to do to get your SEP Rating renewed.

1. Get a JAR medical licence (Must be valid and current)

2. Get a CAA certified examiner

3. Get CAA Form SRG 1157 Issue 04

4. Fly with the examiner to complete a skill test or proficiency test

5. Get the examiner to complete CAA Form SRG 1157 and submit it to the CAA (including your copies your JAR licence and your JAR medical certificate)

Be aware that this is the procedure to renew your SEP Rating.

If you let your JAR PPL Licence expire, then that will be a totally different circumstance and you will have to submit a different application form to get your JAR licence renewed.

For more information, check the CAA document "CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance".

WP

[riverrock83]

You will also need to convert to a Part-FCL licence.
This means you need English Proficiency checked (which could be done by an examiner at the same time as renewing your SEP rating) which is often a sumbling block for people.
You apply for this online:
See here: Converting UK and JAA Licences and Ratings to Part FCL | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=2685&pagetype=65&appid=54&mode=summary&appprocsum=20)
Online application form here:
Apply for a Licence Conversion | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=2685&pagetype=65&appid=54&mode=detail&appproc=25)

However might be easier to stick with paper if also renewing the class rating at the same time.

As mentioned, details to renew your class rating are here:
Renew a SEP Aeroplane Class Rating | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=2685&pagetype=65&appid=54&mode=detail&appproc=29)

For the conversion, there are many other threads on here...

Your US medical / BFR mean nothing as far as your UK licence is concerned.

[grosfion]

thanks very much for all the info. So is it mandatory to convert to the Part-FCL licence? Do I need to have a valid type rating to renew my licence?

If anyone knows a CAA examiner (or a list of examiners in the US) in the North East of the US please let me know, also I guess I need to find a doctor who can issue the medical.

regards,
Marcus

[worldpilot]

Yes, it is mandatory to convert your licence to the EASA due to the fact that it is expiring. CAA is not issueing JAR licence any more.

In this case you will actually have to complete CAA Form SRG 1104 for the conversion. The conversion fee is £73.

Be adviced that your SEP Rating must be valid too. If it is not, your application will be denied.

Be adviced that your FAA licence must be revalidated thereafter.

WP

[MrAverage]

grosfion

It's not clear from your initial post whether you understand that your UK licence must be valid (including your medical and SEP) in order to fly on your "piggyback" FAA licence.

My apologies if you were aware, I'm purely thinking of your best interests.

[MrAverage]

Worldpilot

Actually they will issue an EASA licence without a valid rating but grosfion needs one anyway.

grosfion

There don't appear to be any AMEs capable of issuing UK medicals in the NE states. I think your nearest are in Ontario or Florida.

[grosfion]

that is an interesting point, so the licence just states under validity:
"The privileges of the licence shall be exercised only if the holder has a valid medical certificate for the required privilege."

It does not states that the type rating need to be valid.
Also I checked with the FAA that they do not requiere a JAA medical, they told me a FAA medical is sufficient.

Initially I thought the same as you but could not find anything in writing.

Marcus

[BackPacker]

Just to reiterate, to renew a JAR-FCL licence, and thus to convert it to an EASA Part-FCL licence, all your ducks need to be in a row. This means you have to have:

- A valid EASA medical, appropriate for your licence (class I or II). (And in fact the CAA needs to be the "holder" of the medical, not some other *AA within EASA-land.)
- At least one valid class or type rating (which, in turn, requires a proficiency check, or a revalidation by experience in case of SEP)
- At least an LPE 4 which has not expired yet. (LPE levels 4 and 5 expire, a level 6 does not)
- It's also a good idea to include the application for as many ratings as you qualify for. You can get the aerobatics, mountain flying and a few other "new" ratings for free when your EASA licence is issued for the first time, provided that you qualify for them. But if you want to add ratings later, it'll cost money.

If you are currently based in the US, you may find it easier to do the written exam and a flight test and get a standalone FAA PPL, and let the JAR-FCL one expire. If you ever get back to this side of the pond it's relatively straightforward to get the whole EASA-FCL PPL revalidated even if it's expired: Renew your medical first, then do a checkflight with an examiner. This will revalidate your class rating, and that same examiner can also sign you off on an LPE 6. You then send the whole lot off to the CAA and a few weeks later you should be sorted. (*)

(Do note that you do need TSA clearance to get a standalone FAA PPL, as this will be the initial issue of an "airman rating" as far as the FAA is concerned. There may also be specific prohibitions on flight training - any training really - depending on what visa or green card you are currently holding.)

(*) Well, yeah, maybe not quite. I've been e-mailing, phoning and snail-mailing stuff back and forth with the CAA for well over half a year now. I did my IMC course and test over the summer, and I still don't have my EASA licence. The latest snag is that the CAA has somehow "lost" my LPE 6, for which I already did the exam end of 2010, and whose results were registered with the CAA early 2011.

[grosfion]

thanks very much that helps. I was planning to do my FAA CPL anyway thissummer (got my IR already, so the TSA is sorted out already). Did not know that the re-issue of an expired licenseis not too complicated.

[worldpilot]

Grasfion,

If your SEP Rating has expired, you're not allowed to fly as PIC though. And also, you need to have JAR medical. If this has not been the case, you've not been flying in a legal manner.

At least, thats my understanding of the ramifications. To stay on the legal side, I would refrain from flying until your documents have the required validity.

WP

[BackPacker]

There's one other thing to check. One of the entry requirements for an FAA CPL is an ICAO PPL, but I don't know whether that ICAO PPL needs to be valid at the time you do the FAA CPL exam, or whether an expired PPL would also be sufficient.

And also, you need to have JAR medical.

I think, but I'm not quite sure, that the medical is an exception. You can fly an FAA piggyback PPL on a medical that goes with the underlying "based on" licence (in this case a JAR-FCL medical) or on an FAA medical class III. So for your FAA piggyback PPL to be valid, you don't have to have a JAR-FCL medical per se, as long as you have an FAA medical. But it's something to check out.

However if the underlying JAR-FCL licence is invalid, or if the class rating is invalid, or something like that, then the FAA piggyback PPL is also no longer valid. That's the problem with these piggyback licences: You're building a house of cards, and all it takes is the removal (expiry) of one bit, and the whole house will come tumbling down. An FAA piggyback is great for the occasional holiday touring, but if you're going to do more flying than just that, for a more extended period of time, it's better to get a standalone FAA PPL.

[wb9999]

You can fly an FAA piggyback PPL on a medical that goes with the underlying "based on" licence (in this case a JAR-FCL medical) or on an FAA medical class III. So for your FAA piggyback PPL to be valid, you don't have to have a JAR-FCL medical per se, as long as you have an FAA medical.

I'm not sure about JAR without checking my old JAR licence, but certainly with an EASA licence the licence is only valid with a medical. So no EASA medical = no EASA valid licence = no valid FAA piggyback licence (as you need a valid foreign licence for the piggyback licence to be valid).

[Level Attitude]

So no EASA medical = no EASA valid licence = no valid FAA piggyback licenceNo, read the wording of Part-FCL carefully - semantics can be your friend:

An EASA Licence is valid for life (a JAR one for 5 years). A valid medical is
only required if the licence privileges are to be exercised.

Those privileges are to act as a pilot in aircraft that are registered in EASA states.

If the FAA deems a US Medical adequate to exercise EASA Licence privileges
in an N-Reg aircraft then that is nothing to do with EASA.

[wb9999]

Level Atitude, from Part-FCL (which has been read carefully):

FCL.070 Revocation, suspension and limitation of licences, ratings and certificates
(a) Licences, ratings and certificates issued in accordance with this Part shall be limited, suspended or revoked by the competent authority when the pilot doesn’t comply with the requirements of this Part, PartMedical or PartOPS, in accordance with the conditions and procedures laid down in Part Authority Requirements

PartMedical extract:
MED.A.020 Medical certification
(c) Applicants for and holders of a private pilot licence (PPL) shall hold a valid class 2 medical certificate.



So the CAA CAP804 definition below is in accordance with Part-FCL:
A “valid” licence. A licence is valid if it has been issued and: (a) it has not expired (or is non-expiring); and (b) it has not been provisionally suspended, suspended or revoked; and (c) the holder has a current and valid medical certificate or medical declaration appropriate to the licence

The bottom line is under Part-FCL and Part-Med you must have a valid EASA medical for the EASA (and JAR) licence to be valid, otherwise you invalidate your FAA piggyback licence. The FAA have no power to decide if your EASA licence is valid - they just require that it is valid.

[Level Attitude]

That's the problem with these piggyback licences: You're building a house of cardsI totally agree with this and would always advise someone to maintain the underlying Licence usable in State of Issue.

However the FAA must have some basis for stating:
Also I checked with the FAA that they do not requiere a JAA medical, they told me a FAA medical is sufficient.FCL.070 Revocation, suspension and limitation of licences, ratings and certificates
(a) Licences, ratings and certificates issued in accordance with this Part shall be limited, suspended or revokedThe Licence remains valid, but its (EASA) privileges are suspended.

MED.A.020 Medical certification
(c) Applicants for and holders of a private pilot licence (PPL) shall hold a valid class 2 medical certificate.This is completely meaningless.
No one is required to surrender their Licence just because their Medical has expired - so they remain the 'Holder' of a valid PPL - just one whose Privileges have been suspended.

Even if the CAA Medical Department is written to, in order to inform them
of a reason (eg: broken leg) that the pilot is no longer fit, the letter they
send out does not say the Licence is no longer valid, it says the privileges
may not be exercised.

A “valid” licence. A licence is valid if it has been issued and: (a) it has not expired (or is non-expiring); and (b) it has not been provisionally suspended, suspended or revoked; and (c) the holder has a current and valid medical certificate or medical declaration appropriate to the licencewb9999,
I was unable to find this quote in CAP804. Do you have a reference?

In any case CAP804 is explanatory, and cannot contradict Part_FCL which is mandatory and, especially since they use "Bunny Ears", I would class this as a simplification of the Law to aid in understanding.

Could also say that an FAA Medical is "appropriate to the licence" for use in N-Reg aircraft.

I reiterate that, to be certain, I would strongly recommend that nobody flies on an FAA 'Piggy Back' Licence unless the Licence it is based on is also usable in the State of Issue - However I do not think there is a legal reason why an FAA medical would not be acceptable for N-Reg aircraft in the US.

[wb9999]

Level Attitude,

The quote from CAP804 is on page 34 of the PDF (Section 1, Part B, Page 10) - Validity of Licences. I know that CAP804 is not law, but the CAA's definition in CAP804 does tie in with Part-FCL and Part-Med (and the ANO for UK CAA licences).

The Licence remains valid, but its (EASA) privileges are suspended

If the privileges of a licence are suspended, then the licence becomes an expensive piece of paper that you cannot do anything with. So it is no longer a valid licence as required by the FAA.

FAA 61.75 states that the piggyback license:
(3) Is subject to the limitations and restrictions on the person's U.S. certificate and foreign pilot license when exercising the privileges of that U.S. pilot certificate in an aircraft of U.S. registry operating within or outside the United States; and

If your EASA licence has a limitation of privileges due to a non-valid medical then these apply to the FAA certificate. The above paragraph would also apply if you don't have a valid rating for your EASA/JAA/CAA licence. A US BFR is not sufficient on its own.

As for MED.A.020, the word "shall" is used. You must have a valid medical if you have a PPL. The two are intrinsically linked - you can't have one without the other. This is the same for UK CAA licences - CAP393 (the ANO) states "A medical certificate forms part of the licence" (p76). So no medical = an invalid licence.

From what I have read previously, the European model of the medical certificate forming part of the licence is different to most ICAO licences - which is why I think the FAA is giving out advice that an FAA medical is sufficient. For anyone outside of Europe it most likely is. I wouldn't expect an FAA employee to know the regulations of every civil aviation authority worldwide.

If somebody had an accident in the US flying on a piggyback licence I think it is highly probable that the NTSB or FAA would contact the UK CAA to check the validity of the licence. It could have been suspended or revoked for other reasons, and the FAA would want to check. If the medical is not valid, what do you think the CAA's response would be? Licence valid or not valid?

[grosfion]

So I decided to do the entire FAA PPL (NOT FOREIGN BASED) which cost me +$1000 (only 3hrs training, TSA clearance, written and checkride) and I spend 2 1/2hrs with the examiner to sort out the paperwork.

One thing I learned was to convert your CAA licence to EASA you do not need a current rating (of course you will not be able to exercise) and a medical which needs to be issued in the UK (so no CAA approved medical examiners in the US).

Maybe someone can confirm, if I'm coming back to the UK in the future that I will not have big trouble to apply for a EASA licence with my expiered CAA JAA licence.


Marcus