Swanwick problems...

[N380UA]

Just got an SMS saying a BA flight went down? Anything to that ?

[NigelOnDraft]

Sounds like a day not to be flying in the UK...

BBC Web / R4 say Swanwick software problem, due to a changeover last night (database / upgrade?)... long delays...

I'll stay in the garden...

NoD

[NigelOnDraft]

No sign on the news..??

However, part of the UK ATC system has "crashed", so maybe (and hopefully) someone got their wires crossed...

NoD

[N380UA]

Apparently BA 712 (LHR ZRH) is now on the ground in LHR no further details were given.

[NigelOnDraft]

BA712 is not due to depart for another 8 minutes...

However, the BA website says it has been "cancelled"...

NoD

[huw stunn]

This is just the regular Swanwick ATC failure. LHR on 1 departure every 10minutes at the moment and arrivals may have to be diverted as there is no where at LHR to park them !

Happy Friday

[N380UA]

Uff that’s good news.

:)

[PPRuNe Radar]

More detail here

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53571

[The Hooded Claw]

Got airbourne this morning just as it all went horribly wrong!!

We were held low (FL190) as the sector above couldn't be opened.

On arrival at destination we found ourselves with a slot delay which kept slipping back to 4 hours before working its way forwards again to just an hour and a half.

Despite having to put up with 200 grumpy passengers, a big thank you to ATC for keeping the delay to a minimum

[Phoenix_X]

Is this one of those crashes that 'could never happen again' or 'a one in a million chance?'

But as said above, a big thank you and heads up to the ATC guys who kept us all going and with far less delay than I expected!

[paulo]

It's been fairly grim for passengers. Down here at T1 - not best able to cope with foot traffic at the best of times - it's been chaos, if reasonably well controlled chaos. A large number of cancellations has pushed passengers back into being reticketed, and so the queue at the BA desk runs round the terminal.

At one point ground staff were trying to work with police to move the queue outside on to the pavement, but that plan seems to have failed.

For me, being a weekend trip, it's basically game off. I can't get to where I'm going in time, so I'll just have to go home and take the refund.

Perhaps next time I'll fly myself. Lower Airspace may be slow, but at least it doesn't screw up.

And one last irony - my job is technical architect. Building 24x7 resilient systems.

By the sounds of it I've been let down by one of my own. :(

[Raw Data]

Now what's all the fuss about then..!!!

Got advised of a four hour slot delay... refiled at FL180... left ten minutes later (out of LCY).

Got home 20 minutes late. :cool:

[FlapsOne]

Try doing it ling haul!

[Avman]

FlapsOne : stup tryong to spake Franch :)

[Pointer]

Ok RD how did you fix that???

I had my day.....a regular 14 hour shift... well almost ...
first delay..just a few hours.... getting to MAN and then stuck in MAN...four more hours finaly able toleave they tell me wait another half hour on stand before starting...and the delays kept stacking up and up.

:D :D Yeah Go Swanick Go.. :D :D

[Warped Factor]

RD,

Got advised of a four hour slot delay... refiled at FL180... left ten minutes later (out of LCY).

By doing the above you no doubt remained outside of airspace controlled by Swanwick.

WF.

[BEXIL160]

Just so y'all know...

Swanwick is critically short of controllers and assistants.

(Don't beleive it? Ask WHY their have been SO many closures of sectors at night... The real answer is ABSOLUTELY NO CONTINGENCY)

Those that remain are doing their level best to provide as good a service as they are able despite the poor equipment we have to deal with.

Not surprisingly morale at Swanwick is rock bottom. Just to "kick us when we are down" NATS management have offered a derisory pay offer, DESPITE all the extra effort its operational staff are making to keep things afloat.

It makes me very, very sad to post this. I am INCREDIBLY sorry that people have have their travel plans disrupted today. As an ATCO I feel frustrated and let down AGAIN.

Todays problems were due to a FAULT that NATS management knew about but deemed "not urgent" to fix (go see the thread on the ATC issues forum). I wonder what other faults they know about but deem "not urgent?"

BEX

[FLEX42]

Bex, just got in from the day (make that night) DLM. You guys & gals are the best in the world bar none ! It's a crying shame you don't get the equipment and salary to match your skills. Thank you to all of you for keeping us safe up there.

Descending FL250, 30 before MID

[BEXIL160]

Thank you for the Kind compliment. It is VERY much appreciated, believe me.

Too bad our own management don't see us in the same light, but no matter, we will continue to provide the best ATC service we can.... despite our, er,um handicaps

Rgds BEX

[Capt H Peacock]

To hear that NATS management don't understand the meaning of contingency doesn't surprise me at all. Beancounters have great difficulty in coping with anything 'off track' and their presence in the aviation industry is becoming a serious problem. Aviation is a business for experienced professionals to take the important resourcing decisions, whether it be how much fuel you load, or manning levels in a critical function. The plan is only a basis for change, and from the moment you set off you're managing displacements from the plan. That is simply not management psyche and sadly we will be faced with many more days like yesterday whilst the beancounters are in charge. They see 'just in case' as 'unnecessary waste'.

That said, may I just express my gratitude and admiration to all you guys at SwanLake and LHR who coped with calm professionalism and good humour when you had every reason to burst into tears.

I'm glad it was UK ATC in charge, it could have been sooooh different elsewhere.:D

[Fly747]

Keep up the good work guys. Can anyone think of a country with better ATC?

[411A]

Netherlands, Germany, Austria, USA, Thailand, Japan...the list goes on.....
Computers that break, too few controllers...just some of the reasons why the UK is not at the top of the list. Near the top...yes...at the top, certainly not. :rolleyes:

[Avman]

.......and, 5 years late, coming in November will be Maastricht's new super sophisticated but highly complex system. It will be a joy to work with, but its complexity may generate plenty of teething problems.

[no sig]

Respect! for all the ATCO's and ATCA's who helped us through Friday's failures.

But, if there are not questions in the 'House' over this last failure then I don't know what it takes. Honestly, I find it incredulous, that we have yet another system failure of this magnitude. Combined with the Brussels failure it amounted to one of the worst days I've expereinced, we had to cancel 44 sectors.

But translate this into human misery, missed holidays, frustration and all that goes with it, add the cost to the airlines - it is simply unacceptable and NATS management had best listen up and sort themselves out. I frankly feel they have NO excuse.

Who is going to carry the can over this one?

[G.Khan]

411A - Those countries you mentioned, good for overflight, as good as the UK perhaps but when it comes to arrival and departures it is the UK every time.

And ALL atc units have breakdowns, for whatever reasons.

[411A]

Hmmm, seem to remember somewhere else on this august forum that LHR leads Europe in delays on departure...personally have ALWAYS held the longest on arrival into LHR.
If ATC at Heathrow is the "best", I wonder why?
:confused:

[Fly747]

I should have said ATCOs in my previous post. LHR is best because of their controllers, no-one else could jam so many aircraft into such a small place safely.

[Warped Factor]

411A,

Hmmm, seem to remember somewhere else on this august forum that LHR leads Europe in delays on departure...personally have ALWAYS held the longest on arrival into LHR.

Well, you seem to have the answer for most things around here, so if you can tell us how to better squeeze a quart into a pint pot we'd be very pleased to hear from you :rolleyes:

Why not drop me an e-mail the next time you're over and you can come in and see the operation first hand and let us know where we're going wrong.

WF.

p.s that is a genuine offer to visit us.

[Big Nose1]

If ATC at Heathrow is the "best", I wonder why?

411A,
I suggest if you compare the number of runways available at LHR compared with say LFPG,EHAM,KDFW,KATL,KORD to name a few you will find your answer!

[411A]

Fly747...
ATCO's...yes, in that case would agree, altho I personally prefer AMS controllers...just a personal choice.

Warped Factor...
Would be pleased to come 'round for a look...and pleased to buy the beers after. Could very well be next month as we are planning sim training in the UK.

[Sky Goose]

I was one of probably millions of people inconvinienced by the NATS problem.
What I want to know is who is accountable for all the disruption and expense incurred by everyone involved.
If it was as a result of a direct failure on NATS's part, do they get off the hook without having to compensate airlines, passengers and all others involved?
Seems that if its their fault, they should be accountable.

[Taildragger67]

At the risk of attracting much derision...

I used to work in financial markets. If I had to staff a dealing room, the first place I would head would be to a busy ATC unit and offer you real money. You guys are fantastic - thanks for the great job you do. much as I detest industrial action, here's an idea: in Australia several years ago, the ATCOs had a series of rolling stoppages for better pay & conditions - after some >>good PR<< to let the punters know that the guys & gals directing them through the maze worked silly shifts for peanuts, the punters got on-side and the pressure for decent pay became political. Do it, guys - you deserve it.

[BEXIL160]

The difference is financial people take RISKS as part of the job, as an ATCO my job is all about SAFETY and the avoidance of RISK.

Still, wouldn't mind some of your paycheck (wouldn't we all though?)

Best rgds BEX

[Taildragger67]

Agreed BEX...

My point is simply that some people with what appear to be similar skills - quick thinking, keeping within bounds, ability to know where things are in relation to each other (eg. the prices of different instruments, the historical track of each of those instruments) and keep a cool head under pressure) - often get paid more than ATCOs who use their similar skills to prevent a/c from running into each other - and that you guys are a bargain at the price the community pays for your talents.

My post was simply to try to say, 'those of us who have even an inkling of what you do, really appreciate you'.

[BEXIL160]

Thank you....
:)
BEX

[paulo]

I've been watching this (and the other thread in ATC) with interest. I got a bit caught up as PAX in Friday's stuff.

As a technical architect and PPL, I find the ATC stuff, and the systems that are used, fascinating but mysterious! My contact with the profession and it's services is limited to the odd ATCO or FISO at local airfields.

Is there any opportunity to come and have a look-see at what you guys do somewhere sometime? Or alternatively, is there any kind of general easy to read book about ATC ops?

[Born Sinner]

Here's one for yer...

Checked in at LHR 0800 on friday - Chaos!
Eventually went out, prepped up a/c - cancelled
Back to compass.
Did this another 3 times, each time returning to compass at company's request.
Final occasion had a/c, crew, catering, fuel, tug and 150 pax - cx!
Eventually checked out at 2100 having been precisely nowhere!
Talk about not being able to organise a **** up in a brewery!

[chiglet]

paulo
If you are serious, then a 'phone call to your local ATSU should work wonders :D
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[M.Mouse]

Born sinner

I can understand your frustration but had you witnessed what was happening in operations all day and night Friday and much of Saturday I would challenge you to do much better.

I was on the telephone to our schedulers at 0300 on Saturday morning calculating the earliest we could operate back to UK. You could hear the activity in the background.

I think you are being uncharitable.

[chippy63]

taildragger67,


You're right, we had an application from an ATC in one of our asian branches in the 80's, decided to give him a try after some market training. He developed into an excellent trader, great ability to absorb constantly changing market info and to act on it.

Bexil,

You are quite right; in the financial markets you are generally measuring and pricing risk, not eliminating it. Dealing requires excellent self-discipline, which the zero defect environment of aviation inculcates.

The guy that I mentioned took quite a while to get used to the fact that it was expected that he, like any other trader, would make bad- in hindsight- trading decisions. The hallmark of the good trader is the speed with which he or she cuts the lossmaking positions, and runs the winners. Incidentally, if you follow this thinking, you can often make an overall profit even if the majority of your decisions are wrong
:eek: :cool:

[Roobarb]

Sky Goose
If it was as a result of a direct failure on NATS's part, do they get off the hook without having to compensate airlines, passengers and all others involved?

Why should ATC be different from so much management in the UK. Inept, unaccountable, pugnacious, unreconstructed, unreproached individual players who get highly rewarded for repeated abject failures.

Born Sinner, M Mouse

Having spoken to many about BA’s reaction to Friday, and having suffered first hand, the whole response was crippled by indecision, particularly from the CC management. I sat for 5 hrs in an aeroplane occupying a valuable stand whilst we waited for a cabin crew, most of whom had been in the Bouncy Castle for hours.

The solution?

Tiered incident response. Flexible supervision constructed to respond to rapidly changing events. A man for now, a man for next, and a man for 6 hours time. NOW allocates resources in a firefighting role, (eg allocating crews to flights) and that’s all. NEXT searches out resources, in this case calling out extra personnel, polling volunteers, and grouping them into bands of duty time available, and organising them into crews. Mr 6hrs looks at the impact and assesses the effect on future plans, in our case the planned schedule of flights, and looks to see where resources can be amalgamated or cancelled. For instance fly a 777 to FRA and hub and spoke the customers for HAM, DUS, TXL etc, optimising available capacity. The same model applies to many other operational functions, it’s a tried and tested technique. It’s not rocket science, the police use a similar system and they used it at Potters Bar for instance. I thought that went particularly well.

Sadly at BA we had a large number of talent free ‘managers’ rushing around to create the impression of activity and no-one taking decisions. In one case a ‘decision’ to cancel a flight was followed in seconds by a ‘decision’ to re-instate it. That resulted in 95% of the passengers on that flight going without their bags as the CS staff tried to implement their leaders whims. That’s not just my warped and bitter impression, it’s reflected right across the company.

What we did have though was a very large number of really dedicated staff who tried their very best to clear up the mess. A driver who had been on for 14hrs voluntarily, rostering staff, dispatchers, push back tugmen, customer service staff who worked in the zoo that was the terminals. To all of you it was a pleasure and a privilege working with you.

To all at NATS and Heathrow, you have my heartfelt admiration. To carry on through all of that with frequent good humour and consummate professionalism was highly commendable.

http://www.80scartoons.8k.com/roobarb10wee.gif
I’ll take on the opposition anyday, it’s my management I can’t beat

[160to4DME]

So who'll offer me a job as a trader then ??!! :D :cool: :D :cool: ;)

[M.Mouse]

Roobarb

Excellent theory and can't disagree. The situation is so dynamic though I wonder just how well ANY system would cope.

The point I was making that people at the coalface ie schedulers and the like did not have the resources you talk about to enable them to do a better job, but they were doing their best.

I endorse your comments about individual employees.

[eyeinthesky]

Roobarb:

Your description of the CC is remarkably similar to what I witnessed at Swanwick on Friday morning. There were large numbers of people grouped around the offending console, which was being manned by two controllers with live traffic, trying to decide what to do, (no-one actually knew what was wrong) and it took the best part of 2.5 hours for the decision to be made to try splitting off the other sectors which had hitherto remained together because of fears that to do so would cause further failures. NOBODY was prepared to stand up and say: Do this, and I will take responsibility for it. This typifies the management of Swanwick at present: everybody has something to say but is not directly accountable for their actions. I suggest if they were then our present Manager Operations would no longer be in his job.... :p :mad:

Compensation? Unlikely! Haven't you heard that NATS has got no money? (Despite the item on the One o'clock news today that they predict a surplus of £54m on their investments!).