BK117 crash Baltic Sea

[skadi]

Sad news!
Yesterday evening a BK117 of DRF Luftrettung crashed into the sea near the island of Ruegen/Germany while on a training mission ( ship winching ) 2 pilots were rescued by the participating ship, one of him died. The two medical passengers were missed but later on found dead by rescue divers. RIP

Vor der Küste von Mecklenburg-Vorpommern - Hubschrauber-Absturz! Drei Tote! - News Inland - Bild.de (http://www.bild.de/news/inland/hubschrauberabsturz/hubschrauber-stuertz-in-ostsee-34888084.bild.html)


skadi

[206Fan]

ASN Aircraft accident 28-FEB-2014 Eurocopter BK.117 C-1 D-HDRJ (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=164356)

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5313/40dimg2625csmall.jpg

[Reely340]

Gathering info:

Bergung nach Hubschrauberabsturz in Ostsee | NDR.de - Regional - Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (http://www.ndr.de/regional/mecklenburg-vorpommern/absturz199.html)
..suddenly ditched while on approach to vessel upon which a docter should have been dispatched via winch. The whole thing was an emergency exercise.

Hubschrauber-Absturz: "Wir stehen vor einem Rätsel" | STERN.DE (http://www.stern.de/panorama/hubschrauber-absturz-wir-stehen-vor-einem-raetsel-2093604.html)
one pilot,the doctor and the medical assistant are dead. The sea at the location of the accident has a depth of 21ft.
It was a weekly training exercise. The doctor has been lowered onto the ship and brought up again twiche, then during departure the helicopter ditched at 2km distince from the ship.
both pilot were experiences (9500h resp. 7000h incl. OffShore work)

Tödlicher Einsatz über der Ostsee: Hubschrauber versinkt im Meer - n-tv.de (http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Hubschrauber-versinkt-im-Meer-article12371686.html)
4°C water temp, only on of the pilot survived. Both managed to get out of the helicopter, one of them died from severe injuries.

but no clues as to the cause of the accident.

edit:
Maschine wird geborgen: Drei Tote bei Hubschrauber-Absturz in der Ostsee - Aus aller Welt - FOCUS Online - Nachrichten (http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/suche-laeuft-auf-hochtouren-hubschrauber-stuerzt-vor-meck-pomm-in-die-ostsee_id_3652965.html)
According to eyewittness reports the helicopter ditched on his "thrid approach attempt":confused:

Vor der Küste Mecklenburg-Vorpommerns: Drei Tote bei Hubschrauberabsturz - Unglücke - FAZ (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/ungluecke/vor-der-kueste-mecklenburg-vorpommerns-drei-tote-bei-hubschrauberabsturz-12826507.html)
ditched app. 4km east of Darßer Ort (village?) in the vincinity of the wind park Baltic 1. Againg eyewitnesses reporting "thrid approach attempt".
"..specially equipped for off shore service.." here are the floats:Tödlicher Hubschrauber-Absturz gibt Rätsel auf | shz.de (http://www.shz.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/panorama/toedlicher-hubschrauber-absturz-gibt-raetsel-auf-id5880696.html)



amazing how much grossly contradicting information one can find in the press.

[Aser]

What the f....?!
That's a job for a dedicated maritime SAR unit. :ugh::(

[Wander00]

Very sad - RIP

[206Fan]

Updated photo with the Floats attached!


http://www.helifotos.de/component/joomgallery/image-807-orig.jpg

[Aser]

I cannot see a difference to other privatized SAR outfits/contracts.

The difference is like night and day...
If you think floats and two pilots makes a hems helicopter a real maritime SAR... well **** happens.

The list is too long, it's too late, and AFAIK may be the crash has nothing to do with the differences and they just run out of fuel...

[Helilog56]

A loss of life is a tragedy for the family, friends, and coworkers of the deceased...my sincerest condolences.

I guess Aser you seem to have more value of your opinion than others.

[eivissa]

I am also struggling to see the difference. BK117 might not be the most stable platform for offshore rescue, but the basics look right.

-Two qualified offshore experienced pilots (IFR and night experience is not mentioned in the articles?)
-Twin engined, offshore equipped machine.

Not sure what is better...
-Knowing that other/more southerly countries spend big bucks for modern/large SAR machines and then dont spend any money keeping their crews qualified and in good currency for the mission.
-Knowing that Germany is using older/smaller aircrafts for the same job, but then spends more money to keep the crews in frequent training for the daily job.

[Praet]

The difference is like night and day...
If you think floats and two pilots makes a hems helicopter a real maritime SAR... well **** happens.
Aser, helicopters such as the crashed 117 are not "real maritime SAR", they are exclusively providing HEMS services to offshore wind farms and their construction sites as stipulated by work safety regulations.

[Spunk]

On one of the German News Channels a spokesman of the participating "DGzRS" (German Maritime Search and Rescue Service) said that the exercise itself was over and that the helicopter circled the rescue cruiser twice and than suddenly lost altitude and contacted the water.

Aser, I understand that you yourself are in the lucky position to fly a "real maritime SAR" helicopter. That's good for you and your crew and I know that for the kind of operation you guys do you have the right choice of helicopter.

However in this particular case we are not talking about flying over the Atlantic coast at night in heavy thunderstorms at beaufort 10+. I wouldn't do that in a BK117 either.
But for the kind of work that is done by the DRF over the Baltic Sea the BK is more than sufficient. As mentioned before it's "only" about "providing HEMS services to offshore wind farms".

[Aser]

Ok, everybody calm down.

The first post suggested a ship winching at night, so in my opinion that should be a job for German Navy or whoever is dedicated to maritime SAR over there.

I'm not attacking Germany, your friends or the good old Bk-177.

I don't fly SAR any more and I'm happy because even flying an AW139, the bad company safety culture and management, the lack of SOPs, training, regulations etc. caused a deadly crash.

My opinion is based on my hems,sar and offshore experience and it's like the ass, "everybody has one".

Best regards
Aser

[His dudeness]

The wreckage is salvaged:

Hubschrauber-Wrack wird in Rostock untersucht | NDR.de - Regional - Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (http://www.ndr.de/regional/mecklenburg-vorpommern/absturz199.html)

Picture 2 shows the chopper looking relatively intact below the yellow crane. (the pic isn´t that good...)

The md and assistant have been found dead in the wreck.

DRF has a lot of former military guys with a very good traning background, at least thats what the DRF guys at my homebase tell me. Their operation is said to be very professional and from the 'outside' it ceratinly looks like it is.

Time again to say "hats off" and thank you chopper guys, SAR/HEMS/Military/etc, whom fly often in hazardous conditions to help and rescue.

[skadi]

More pics of the wreck. The salvage was difficult, because the helicopter rested upside down on the seafloor and had to be turned prior lifting.

NonstopNews – Galerie (http://www.nonstopnews.de/galerie/18378)

https://www.facebook.com/nsn.rostock/photos/a.584352974993282.1073742139.157517767676807/584354031659843/?type=3&theater

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t31/q71/s720x720/10001027_584354031659843_243315592_o.jpg

skadi

[Hawkeye0001]

Press being all over the place in their assumptions :rolleyes:

Specialists from the federal air accident investigatin board started their investigation after yesterdays fatal helicopter crash. First findings show that the floats on the skids did not deploy automatically; they are supposed to dampen the impact in case of a crash similar to an airbag in a car.

[safelife]

German media now reports that floats can only deployed manually, but weren't; heli itself sustained little to no damage except bent rotor blades. Waiting for medical reports at this time.

[cfr]

My condolences for the families. :-(

As Aser said, a SAR platform for night operations must be inherent stable.
BK177 is not the best for that job...
I have done both Lim-SAR and All Weather SAR and I know how hard is a sailing vessel hoist without autohover at night.

Bk's rigid rotor is a handicap for that kind of operation.
Not every helicopter is suitable for every job...

[eivissa]

The thing is, that according to most of the reports so far, the crash happened after the hoisting exercise during circling the training area. Only a couple of miles from the shore (shore actually in visible sight even) in good night VMC conditions.

That AW139 crash Aser is reffering to, was in very similar similar conditions (close to shore, night, good weather, after the exercise going home) if I recall correctly.

Actual SAR in Germany is still in military hands and done by MK41 Seakings AFAIK.

[Thone1]

@cfr:
Autohover is not required for night winchings. The kraut Sea King actually never uses the Aux Hover for winchings, only during transition training.

However I do agree that a slightly bigger platform should make nite ops over the sea a bit easier.

@eivissa:
You are correct, SAR is provided by the Sea King Mk 41 alone.
The DRF and a few other operators in the North Sea are doing HEMS only.
Some of them only during daylight.

Tom

[terminus mos]

@cfr:
Autohover is not required for night winchings. Do you mean legally or operationally? Over water at night no autohover = insanity

[Turkeyslapper]

Auto hover for night winching from boats....insanity?? With a decent sized vessel with plenty of references why do you need an auto hover?? Hell, a mate of mine flies 100 nm out to sea at night in his a109 to transfer people onto ships. Not sure what the circumstances were in this case however, I don't think auto hover is necessarily the answer to everything?

[terminus mos]

Yes Turkey, but he lands on the ship and is not SAR winching at night.

[skadi]

With the seaking we never used autohover while shipwinching at night and even for SAR winch out of the water it was rarely used, mostly for training.
Its hard to find a three handed winch operator :E
1. hand mini joy stick
2. hand winch control
3. hand guides winch cable

skadi

[helifreddy]

Acer @crf: You said that the BK 117 (NOT 177) with its rigid rotor wouldn`t
be stable in hover. How many flight hours you have on the BK 117?

[Vie sans frontieres]

skadi


Number 3. Where does he guide it to? Hand on winch cable isn't necessary.

[safelife]

Co pilot left hospital and will be questioned about the incident.

[Thone1]

@Skadi: So do we. Maximum is RadAlt height hold engaged when next to the ship. Everything else happens manually.

Tom

[Vie sans frontieres]

What about rescuing someone from the water at night if you don't have a solid reference, a horizon or surface spume to refer to? Why make life difficult for yourself and do everything manually when you fly an aircraft with an auto-hover facility?

[SASless]

VSF......What if you do not have the luxury of "Auto Hover" and have to do the old fashioned way it was done for decades before that advent of "Auto Hover"?

Some Kids today seem to forget what it was like in the "Not Good Ol' Days"!

We got the job done back then....but had to work a lot harder to do it....and had to maintain a skill level that might be missing today with the advent of all the improved automation.

[skadi]

VSF
Number 3. Where does he guide it to? Hand on winch cable isn't necessary.


But its mostly done this way, except in autohover....

Westland Seaking HC4 - ZA298/Y - Royal Navy - 845NAS Cliff Winching Training | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56454775@N06/9138434532/)

skadi

[Vie sans frontieres]

SASless,


Those observant contributors that aren't inclined to just shoot from the hip will note that this line of discussion started with this statement:


'With the seaking we never used autohover while shipwinching at night and even for SAR winch out of the water it was rarely used'


Therefore your 'what if you don't have autohover?' comment is an unnecessary interjection.


If you are seriously advocating that in 2014 night wet winching should be being conducted without the use of some form of autohover facility, then I think it would be for the best if you simply continue to congratulate yourself for your performance in the good old days and allow others to continue with their 21st century discussion.


Skadi,


Although placing the hand on the cable provides the winch operator with the ability to manually determine whether there is any cable slippage/runaway/broken strands of cable (if his winching glove is thin enough) and helps him to take out any swing during the winch in, in truth for the vast majority of occasions it is not actually necessary.

[SASless]

Therefore your 'what if you don't have autohover?' comment is an unnecessary interjection.


You really cannot having anyone differ with you can you?:hmm:

[Vie sans frontieres]

What shouldn't find its way onto these pages is a 12900 post, 50 year veteran, who inexperienced flyers will obviously give a certain amount of credence to, suggesting that in-built safety features are added extras that we really shouldn't have to bother with if we were all up to scratch. We're not.





Night, in the hover over the water without any references is not a place to prove what a man you are. It'll only end in tears.

[hueyracer]

Guys, i like to follow your discussions-but was this accident really caused by the absence of an "auto-hover-mode"?

No-definitely not..

Lets focus on the facts we have-and think about how we can avoid similar accidents in the future…

What will be the "lessons learned" out of this specific accident?

[SilsoeSid]

If you are seriously advocating that in 2014 night wet winching should be being conducted without the use of some form of autohover facility, then I think it would be for the best if you simply continue to congratulate yourself for your performance in the good old days and allow others to continue with their 21st century discussion.

Without doubt one of the best retorts I think I have ever seen on PPRuNe :D

[SASless]

VSF.....you should learn to speak for yourself and leave off speaking for others who are far more able to speak their own minds.

You certainly do not add to the quality of the discussion carrying on the way you do.

You may certainly free to disagree with anything posted here by anyone. What you should do is learn how to do so politely.

You certainly have failed to do that as evidence by your posts.

So...I would remind you of the simple rule we follow here....."Play the Ball.....not the Player!". Violate that too often or in too energetically and you will find yourself batting a very sticky wicket.


Sid.....go back and try to find where I said anything remotely like that and get back with us will you.

To save you the time and effort which I doubt you would take.....here is exactly what I said.

I have added the Bold Print so VSF and you can focus upon what was actually said.

VSF......What if you do not have the luxury of "Auto Hover" and have to do the old fashioned way it was done for decades before that advent of "Auto Hover"?

Some Kids today seem to forget what it was like in the "Not Good Ol' Days"!

We got the job done back then....but had to work a lot harder to do it....and had to maintain a skill level that might be missing today with the advent of all the improved automation.

[krypton_john]

Apologies if this is a dumb question but here goes: When winching from vessel at sea, won't the vessel be steaming at a speed to allow a steady heading into wind? If so then isn't auto hover moot, as forward speed required?

Also, someone said: "Night, in the hover over the water without any references is not a place to prove what a man you are. It'll only end in tears."

Again, if winching from a vessel, then isn't the vessel lighting going to allow sufficient visual reference?

Cheers

[Vie sans frontieres]

krypton john


The problem comes when the man overboard is nowhere near the vessel.

[SASless]

From Post One of this Thread......

Yesterday evening a BK117 of DRF Luftrettung crashed into the sea near the island of Ruegen/Germany while on a training mission ( ship winching )


Was not the training exercise the night of the accident for the purpose of Winching to/from the Ship.....much as in either a Pilot Boarding or Casualty Lift from a Ship?

Or......did they do some exercise away from the Ship too?

[krypton_john]

Ah, ok. Threads getting a bit confused - I thought it was about winching from the vessel itself.

[John R81]

KJ - the thread has drifted from discussion of this event to something different. As ever, the posts in that 'drift' sub-thread tell you more about the poster's personality and outlook than they do about the thread topic. Tracing back you can see who has 'raw nerves' and where they stick out (not just this thread drift, all of them).

In that vein, this post (drifting the drift) discloses mine I suppose.

John

[sky2000]

Very sad indeed!!! RIP

I have no idea what could have happened. I doubt it was a missing autohover. Night over water is a hostile environment and there is not much space for errors (technical or human). I just hope the accident investigation team finds out soon, what caused the crash.

As for some of the replies (on this and other threads), can´t you guys take your personal fight somewhere else. As much as I like to follow the rumours und ideas of what might have caused something, it really annoys me to read through all the bashing. As a native speaker that might be easy, for readers that are not as eloquently as you are, it is not.

sky

[SilsoeSid]

Sasless;
Sid.....go back and try to find where I said anything remotely like that and get back with us will you.

To save you the time and effort which I doubt you would take.....here is exactly what I said.

As it happens Sasless, I was quoting Vie sans frontieres' post number 32 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/535067-bk117-crash-baltic-sea.html#post8352356) :p

[skadi]

I just hope the accident investigation team finds out soon, what caused the crash.I think they will. At first, the copilot survived physically unharmed, and on the other hand, the BK was fitted with voicerecorder and other equipment, from which the memory stuff was recovered ( news from BFU ).

Bergung des Hubschrauberwracks aus der Ostsee | NDR.de - Fernsehen - Sendungen A - Z - Nordmagazin - media (http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/nordmagazin/media/nordmagazin21835.html)

skadi

[hueyracer]

Just from what i read and "heard" (which-btw-is NO "insider-knowledge"!), it seems to me that the pilots did something…..lets say "stupid"..

I hope i am completely wrong with this…..but it seems to me that they were trying to do some "tight and low turns" to say "Good Bye"…..maybe overturned it (you all know the "tight right turn & collective"-stories)..

I do NOT say it was a pilots error…just my feeling from the articles, the "witnesses stories" and experience from previous accidents give me this impression…...

[SASless]

Would that not require "Right Hand Orbits" for an overturning event due to the collective-cyclic situation BO and BK's (and 135's and 145's too I guess) are known for? Misapplication of controls could result in a similar but different situation for Left Hand Turns if I remember correctly.

[Jet Ranger]

Can someone explain that "misapplication of controls in right turn" on BO and BK models, one more time. I've heard about that, but never enough?

JR

[Spunk]

If I'm not mistaken:

The Exercise Itself Was Over

...and has nothing to do with the accident.

[BQCH53]

@hueyracer
I belong to the DRF offshore unit and I had a very similar night trainingsflight 10 days ago with the trainingscaptain, who unfortunately died in this accident.
At the time being I do not have any Insider knowledge of what had happened. So far there are no official nor unofficial facts about this fatal crash.
But I can tell how this Captain acted in my trainingsflight.
As PICUS on the left seat (BK117 has the hoist on the left side) I had been on the controls during the winch ex at the vessel and transferred the controls for the departure from the vessel. During the departure (me not on the controls) I did a radio call to inform the vessel about our departure.
In the debriefing the trainingscaptain argued that it was unsafe to do the radio call and not being "attentive hands off" (to backup the PIC) during the departure. He made pretty clear that both pilots should concentrate exclusively on the departure until reaching a safe altitude.
With this experience in mind I doubt that there was any room for "stupid things" under his command.

As it was said earlier our unit is no maritime SAR outfit. We do Offshore HEMS. Our operation is limited to winch operation on ships/vessels or wind farms.
We don't do winch rescues out of the water. Especially not at night.
Most of our crew members are Ex mil mainly with maritime SAR background ( as ex Army I am an exception). We regularly get training from active maritime SAR crew members.

I hope we get answers soon, so that we can learn from it.

[krypton_john]

Sincere condolences to you and your unit, Brother. :sad:

[Michael Gee]

The No 2 Pilot left hospital last week - has he still not made a satement as to what happend or what they were doing ?

[Torquetalk]

The silence is deafening. Rumour has it that there is a lot to talk about.

I personally found the reaction to Aser’s comments a bit tight, even if he was mistaken on some details. The accident he refers to was a grave lesson in how not to do offshore operations; namely, on-the cheap. And if he had first-hand knowledge of that operation then his concern to shout up the need to do things properly is understandable.

There is a trend in German Bight and Baltic right now for operators who have had their traditional experience base in the onshore world to try and get a slice of the offshore windpark pie. In fact, that's almost a direct quote from the OLT/NHC boss who said (whilst referring to a desire to expand beyond the current HEMS/rescue service they are offering, into future personnel transfers) "The cake is big".

Is it? I heard a different: That contracts are short-term; that there is considerable market uncertainty, and that there is very strong competition on price - with one operator offering the AW139 at less than €50 a minute (for personnel transfer to platforms). Now I'm no bean counter, but that sounds unsustainably (laughably?) cheap to finance offshore operations for all they entail. How big will that cake be if it is a race to the bottom (no pun intended) just to get market share?

So how can you save money and be competitive on price? You can fly single pilot; you can fly with two pilots up front but only one of whom has a type rating; you can employ people for buttons (or nothing!) who want offshore experience, or make offset deals on the type-rating; you can employ military pilots “moonlighting with approval”; you can accept that bankruptcy is part of the game, re-shell your company, and start again.

I thought these kind of tactics were common parlance (and part of the endemic weakness) in the onshore sector, but that the North Sea sector was largely spared such de-stabilising and dangerous nonsense.

Perhaps the LBA and contract providers should conduct due diligence of all potential bidders, including their pricing structure, financial sustainability, employment practices, adherence to operational minima, maximum take-off weights, performance planning, proper scrutiny of duty and rest periods and so forth.

With respect to this accident, it is awful and my condolences go to the families and colleagues. As an important provider of HEMS services, you should expect that DRF had a properly type-rated, IFR qualified, operationally experienced and current crew. As to the BK117 being suitable for only a bit offshore, the lack of a gear-up warning system was probably the final nail in the coffin.

TT

[BQCH53]

Torquetalk you are right. The problem is that there are only short term contracts for Offshore - HEMS at the german coast at the moment.
Therefore at the time being there is no big interest from the traditional Offshore-Operators to provide this service in germany.
Without longterm contracts it seems not possible to provide state of the art helicopter equipment to this kind of operation.
In addition HEMS operations in the offshore context means a lot of training and currency flights but low hours of paid flight time.
On Wind-Offshore manager told me that his company estimates 3-4 accidents per year where a helo is needed. With this number in mind it is easy to understand, that managers tend to accept the risk of "cheap"-services.
It would be different, when personal is transfered regulary to offshore sites. In this case the employes actually see the standards every day.
In HEMS operation the provided service is invisible most of the time.
It might change in the future, but due to the political situation in germany investments in offshore wind operation are at least delayed and presently there is no "big cake".

[Michael Gee]

Reported today 03 April 2014 by BFU that 117 had no technical defect - I understand that the No 2 pilot has gone to a lawyer. Statement may follow in 2 weeks

[zalt]

The report is out (http://aerossurance.com/helicopters/night-windfarm-winching-cfit/).
Unimpressive mission readiness.

http://aerossurance.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/dfs117-wreckage.jpg

Immediate Causes:

•Little experience of the crew regarding the applicable procedures at night over sea

•The approach deviated from the described approach procedure

•In regard to the altitude, the airspeed, and the rate of descent the approach was not stabilised

•The descent was commenced prior to being on final approach and without visual contact with the ship

•Insufficient monitoring of the flight instruments

•Loss of situational awareness in combination with loss of control

•Non-reaction to visual and audio altitude warnings of the radio altimeter


Systemic Causes:

•Insufficient descriptions of tasks and procedures regarding the flight-safety improving crew cooperation particularly for the offshore scenario

•Insufficient company specifications for the use of the flight attitude stabilising functions of the autopilot system during approaches and departures and in traffic circuits above sea

•Lack of go-around criteria for a non-stabilised approach

•Lack of aviation regulations for offshore helicopter flight operations in Germany

•Insufficient assessment of the operator’s procedures by the responsible supervising authority

•Insufficient understanding for the characteristics of offshore helicopter operations by the responsible supervising authority

[John R81]

That report makes difficult reading.