Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately? [Archive]

Birdstrike737

1st Mar 2014, 17:15

Pigeon Voyager, what planet are YOU from? Ryanair headquarters?

Do you really think that a reputable law firm in Luxembourg would lend its name to a "Nigerian Scam?" How many "Nigerian Scams" operate through Luxembourg banks? I'll help you: none.

You are clearly not in the water with the Ryanair pilots, and apparently you think that by sitting at the edge of the pool you have the right to throw things at the people who are treading water in it. Don't give discredit to the privilege we have here, which is to use a website without giving away our real names -- it's supposed to be used for purposes that help pilots, not hurt them. Personal responsibility does not end at "anonymity."

And "a general giving away his battle plan." Really? If someone is about to execute something that 3,000 pilots have been waiting for (for a long time), and hundreds of Ryanair pilots are a part of it, the "General" is supposed to suddenly become a "magician" and tell everyone to trust him that a rabbit is in his hat? WHY? OF COURSE WE GIVE THE PLAN AWAY! WHAT IN THE HELL IS THERE TO HIDE??

Out of decency, you should pull down your post.

Birdstrike737

1st Mar 2014, 17:26

Pablo Diablo,

Thanks for passing out the word here. Sorry that in my first posted response to Pig. Voy. I used your call sign by mistake. Problem is now corrected.

Let's make Spring 2014 "The Ryanair Spring"

Keep spreading the word.

Wodka

1st Mar 2014, 18:46

I wonder if this exodus will force a change in recruitment strategy to consider experienced guys - TP's, Other jet time, 73 rated etc - assuming they will need to plug these senior FO's

captplaystation

1st Mar 2014, 20:13

They don't need to replace Senior FO's, 200hr Cadets will suffice for that. . . but, they do need to persuade the Senior FO's to remain & take upgrade (with a 5000€ bond :=) for no more (or even in some cases less) money than they have as FO, whilst giving up their base to be sent to . . . . well, 56 (? ) potential other locations.

For a lot of guys I spoke to recently (most of whom are ,or will be soon, somewhere else) this doesn't (surprisingly :rolleyes: ) add up.

When the Command carrot ("2 yrs here in the LHS & the world is your oyster" ) was working, all was Hunky Dory, but the senior FO's have wakened up & the Nescafe is smelling strong.
Why exactly would you accept the responsibility of Command for less money, when you could go somewhere else & have it there within a year or two for a whole lot more dosh ? :ugh:

PigeonVoyageur

1st Mar 2014, 20:14

I appreciate your views. FYI, I am very very far away from Ryanair Headquarters and no vested interests in any form whatsoever in the company.

I know a couple of guys in RPG, and I'll ask them to ascertain whether all this is genuine (including with Themis-Lex and Coficom) - and I can assure you that I'm all for the interests of the RYR pilots and for any scheme which could improve their T&Cs - contrary to what you believe.

If this is genuine, I'll remove my previous post and submit my sincere apologies for having been completely wrong.

captplaystation

1st Mar 2014, 20:21

PigeonVoyageur.

Right with you there on the scepticism, and your polite offer to retract after due diligence is an example to those who sometimes post rather brusque responses to those not perceived to be following the "party line".

Like you, I hope it will transpire to be complimentary to the fine efforts of the RPG.

wind check

1st Mar 2014, 20:54

Guys, please, please, please....STOP DREAMING, pilot shortage will...NEVER EVER exist because there are (and there will always be) thousands and thousands of young european cadets that would sell their mother and sister(s) just to be able seat on a B737-800 flight deck. They will be so proud to put their pics with 2 stripes and rayban sunglasses on facebook. They will also film themselves on youtube with their gopro camera in front of them while landing or taking off, with a stupid star wars or superman song in the background.

Ryanair will now recruit more and more cadets (that will generate more cash). Ryanair will now make them fly 35 hours a month with a crap hourly salary so they can stay longer with MOL. There will always be some volunters for a LHS upgrade, and if not, there will always be some 5000-10000 hours guys stuck at Dubai or Doha that would come back home as a Ryanair captain, even with a :mad: salary, what matters to them is just returning to Europe. :yuk:

felixthecat

2nd Mar 2014, 03:33

Yeah…Im 'stuck' in Dubai …have been for a while now.
Well actually I'm down route in a nice hotel, on allowances. I hate earning nearly 12000 Euro a month tax free and not wondering when the tax man is coming knocking at my door, I stress about it regularly whilst I drink my bottle of water in the cruise and eat my lunch/dinner/breakfast…. Home tomorrow, hope my boat is out of service, need to get out fishing for a few days ….Happy to have left Ryanair? Oh yeah ….. :}:ok::ok::E

wind check

2nd Mar 2014, 07:57

Oh but you can live at Faro, Majorca, Tenerife, and have your own boat with a mini fridge on board, no problem. Every months there are lots of resignations at Emirates, Qatar and Etihad, it seems that your mates are fed up after 5 years in a rented flat earning 12000 dollars a month for a 900 hours/year long haul roster.

jeehaa

2nd Mar 2014, 08:03

At least they did long haul, got wide body experience and got rid of (most of) their loans, which are impossible to pay off when remaining in RYR, on the current contracts/ under current tax regulations / current hrs vs pay

wind check

2nd Mar 2014, 08:27

But guys, stop moaning! YOU did accept to sign an outrageous rubbish deal with Brookfield-Ryanair. And now you want to be paid and treated like a SOUTHWEST AIRLINES pilot. That's ridiculous.

Superpilot

2nd Mar 2014, 09:24

If you can't beat them, join them. Then, have a go at beating them.

Pablo_Diablo

2nd Mar 2014, 10:08

Birdstrike737 No probs at all earlier :)

windcheck the problem so far is that these deals are always signed on your own without any bargaining power on a take it or leave it basis. It´s you vs. the world. It becomes a real problem if the airline or whomever else is doing the same thing is determined to reduce the terms year after year as there is nothing you can do to prevent the decline. On top of that no complaining which in combination with the above can become a bit masochistic really ;)

Now it looks like the pilots have decided they want to reverse that trend and improve the outlook, all in one go by creating this new agency taking back control of their own labor. Instead of using intermediaries that have failed to keep the pilots interests in mind for a very long time. I think the idea is great also and fail to see why it should be considered ridiculous to improve your own working environment. I think everybody should give credit to them instead for doing this and supoort them since they deserve all the support they can get.

Ronand

2nd Mar 2014, 12:18

Could you pls tell me where you earn 12000 euro? As far as I remember Ek captains are on abt 9k a month...

captplaystation

2nd Mar 2014, 13:46

It says $ now, don't know if it said € before.

felixthecat

2nd Mar 2014, 14:15

In EK and its Euro not dollars, in dollars it was a little over $16000 last month. I live out so I have the housing allowance and bought my own place. You have a choice to live rent and utility free in company accommodation or take the money and do with it as you please. Some say that that doesn't count as salary…well to me it does since in the rest of the world the companies just pay you a salary and you have to sort out your own accommodation…

Yes I could live in Faro, Tenerife or where ever with FR …. I did FR and hated it in the end. I moaned daily about how the terms and conditions had dropped how we were continually being bullied and badly treated…now I fly and I am content….and thats all I want. Maybe I will buy a place in Tenerife or where ever for holidays ;):}

Not noticed many of my 'unhappy' mates leaving, but I guess I don't notice that from the inside Windcheck ;) I have noticed how many ex FR pilots we have coming through the door, I wonder how many go the reverse direction? :zzz:

Callsign Kilo

2nd Mar 2014, 20:38

You obviously have a fantastically large ego to go with that salary of yours. Thanks for your look at 'me, me, me' post. It reminds me of the reason why I turned down the assessment with Emirates. Nice one.

directvector

2nd Mar 2014, 21:46

PigeonVoyageur (http://www.pprune.org/members/406318-pigeonvoyageur), the guys behind GTD are legit, they are flying the line 5 days a week like the rest of us :ok:

Nobody's out to take anyone's money, lawyers don't come free, simple as that, especially with the legal :mad: they will get in from FR.

The "general" has to spell out the strategy, otherwise the 3000 random "soldiers" won't join together and fight...
(I don't like your analogy, but just rolling with it anyway)

The phrase behind GTD may be pushing it a bit far, but we've been pushed a long way... Think of it as a dig in the ribs for calling pilots that in the first place.

PM me if you like if you want to know more.

FYI, before anyone says it, I'm not personally involved in it, but man, do I support it 110%, and so should everyone else who is "a service provider"!!! :ok:

Alycidon

3rd Mar 2014, 01:35

Well actually I'm down route in a nice hotel, on allowances. I hate earning nearly 12000 Euro a month tax free and not wondering when the tax man is coming knocking at my door, I stress about it regularly whilst I drink my bottle of water in the cruise and eat my lunch/dinner/breakfast…. Home tomorrow, hope my boat is out of service, need to get out fishing for a few days …

Life with no kids, elderly parents or a sick relative to care for.

Well done you.

felixthecat

3rd Mar 2014, 08:10

The point is C/S Kilo is that there is life outside Ryan, you have a value…don't let then treat or tell you otherwise. Its not me me me its US US US as a pilot body.

Ivor Fynn

3rd Mar 2014, 09:07

Best of luck to you, I hope it works.

Bokkenrijder

3rd Mar 2014, 10:04

You guys are soooooo naive! :rolleyes:

Any relatively expensive pilot that leaves a low-cost airline will be quickly replaced by a cheaper one!

There are tons of 737 rated EU pilots out there, working for peanuts for some kind of dodgy airline (ex. Indonesia) who would love to come back to Europe. On top of that, there are plenty of unemployed pilots out there, who would love to jump at the chance to make a deal with the devil and pay for their own type rating in order to get some "valuable" (?) jet time in return. "Valuable" of course has quite a relative meaning, because the only thing it allows you to do is eventually do the same thing that this topic is about: either, leaving Europe for the Middle East, or jumping from one lo-co to the other. (same :mad:, different name)

I'm sure managers like it when people are leaving. From any airline management's perspective there are just basically two limitations;

1) how fast can you train the new hires to replace the ones leaving, and
2) keeping the attrition rate to a certain level so that crewing levels don't fall below an absolute minimum.

To the ones leaving for the Middle East for a bigger, shinier jet: good luck! := :ugh:

PigeonVoyageur

3rd Mar 2014, 10:30

Thanks for your input. As I said in my post #23, if it's legit, I'll retract all that I have said, remove my original post and submit my apologies. If it's legit, I also support the scheme as you do - 110%. The RPG has got quite a few queries from pilots concerning this scheme and they will be enquiring, and I hope that they issue a statement about this.

Greenlights

3rd Mar 2014, 11:00

If some of you still believe in pilot shortage, here 2 things for you :

1) remove your pink glasses
2) slap yourself

and 3) if it does not work, well...good luck in your life then. :D

pilotho

3rd Mar 2014, 11:33

There may not be a pilot shortage granted but there is a shortage of pilots with the right stuff.

Pablo_Diablo

3rd Mar 2014, 11:56

Greenlights, can i ask you what do you mean when you say there is no pilot shortage?

Do you have any kind of support to back it up or is it just your opinion, i am not saying there is something wrong in that but you seem very certain and then i would like to ask?

Also is shortage seen from the short, medium or long term?

There could be a short term shortage but in the long term possibly not and vice versa obviously. The two are not mutually exclusive.

time2leave

3rd Mar 2014, 13:39

Greenlights. Spot on made me laugh so much. FWIW I am languishing with 6000TT and an Initial T/R credit at a well known sim provider and absolutely zip on the job front. There is no shortage

Crashlanding

3rd Mar 2014, 15:13

The only shortage there has ever been is experienced captains,there are a good thousand + cpl holders just in the UK with no jobs.

If there was a shortage they would all have jobs, ive lost track of how many friends i know with 50k + debt from 2001-2003 with no jobs.

I tell every one who comes to the flight club i instruct at to do there home work, its a simple one.

Ask the CAA how many CPL passes since 2000, then work out how many jobs the think have been created.

Then the proof ontop, if all these CPLs had jobs then realistically as soon as they could they would upgrade to the ATPL, so the next question you ask the CAA is how many ATPL upgrades in the same time frame.

You will find a split quite a big split

Narrow Runway

3rd Mar 2014, 15:23

Crash Landing:

You're idea is worthy, but irrelevant to a certain degree.

You'd also need to ask yourself how many people gained a UK JAA CPL, and then went to work for Ryanair for instance. They insist on an Irish licence I believe.

Ryanair have, one could argue unfortunately, taken on large numbers of UK CPL holders who will have never upgraded to a UK CAA issued ATPL.

You may also be able to find other operators in areas of the world who also insist on local licences.

Therefore, I think we are probably trying to use incomplete data to solve a problem.

However, broadly speaking you're absolutely correct. Too many licences, too few jobs.

Three Lions

3rd Mar 2014, 17:26

To add to the figure are all the guys with ratings working on type with unfrozen licences out in the @rse end of the earth and scattered all over the globe who have been trying to get a stable job in the UK for years without success.
Im not referring to the guys earning good money in the ME either.

The sad fact of life is there has been more recruitment over the last few years but it has been more of a closed shop during these periods than ever before

If by some miracle there becomes a pilot shortage in the UK then this void will simply be filled by one or two large ftos - they are well geared up to regulate the flow of fresh resource.

heavy.airbourne

5th Mar 2014, 16:32

There IS a real shortage of idiots with 1500+ hours who will commute to work for 14K/a. And rightly so! :eek:

Alexander de Meerkat

5th Mar 2014, 17:30

Even 737/A320 Captains are not guaranteed a job. China is that great hoover of pilots in the flying universe who, in principal, would offer jobs to any pilots who are current captains on these types. The problem is that the people who are desperate to employ you are the very same people who will go out of their way to kick you out with crazy medical requirements just to get rid of foreigners. Therefore pilots of 50+ who are exactly who the Chinese want will not darken the door of the place because they know that after a year they will be thrown out for failing a medical or some crazy sim check over some bizarre issue that no other nation in the world would care about. It is such a shame as many pilots would love to spend a few years there, but dare not because it is a mad house. Very strange indeed!

speed_alive_rotate

5th Mar 2014, 17:44

Why are so many people so negative about their careers in aviation, do you think all your friends and family love every bit of their jobs!! Get real, if you have started to hate your career get out of it, and make some room for the guys who actually want to be there! Sorry about the rant just getting sick of all the negativity on PPRUNE!!!!

Push to talk

5th Mar 2014, 18:54

People,

Its about a shortage in Ryanair here. People can say what they want, at the rate Ryanair is losing captains and experienced FO's at the moment it will cause problems for them. You can replace a person but not necessarily his or her experience. Ryanair is simply losing experience. They dont lower their command upgrade requirements for nothing all the time. And for direct entry captains, they can hardly get any as they are also put on nasty contracts with Brookfield or Storm McGinley and get a base they dont want, if not immediately then most likely at some stage. Some that join leave soon again as they dont like the BS they get or are almost never home while floating around 65 bases and live in cheap B&B's or hotels. The direct numbers they get in definitely dont cover the amount they require. At the moment they are simply losing pilots faster than they can replace them. Ryanair's problem wont just be not having enough pilots, but also having lack of experience in the flightdeck and that might actually be a bigger problem and possibly become a liabilty.

I think that if you get treated like :mad: then you better get a lot of money for it. And thats also not the case in Ryanair.

737 Jockey

5th Mar 2014, 19:15

Sadly Ryanair do not value experience in the flight deck, nor anywhere else within the company. I have never met such a bunch of morons as the management there. Every normal large corporate tries to attract and retain experienced and talented professionals. Why wouldn't they? :ugh: Ryanair just see another short term opportunity to recruit younger and less experienced people at lower salaries. This strategy is now biting them severely on the backside, and I for one, am absolutely delighted to see it, and be playing a small but active part in the exodus.

You shall reap, what you sow, Mickey boy! :ok:

RAT 5

5th Mar 2014, 19:39

Know the SOP book inside out. Never deviate: everything goes according to plan 99% of the time; who needs experience? Hopefully by the time you find yourself in a pickle, and the book is not much help, you might have acquired enough gumption to work it out. It's the modern risk management model. Why else has command time reduced from 5000hrs to 3000hrs over the past 20 years? That's about 8 years experience down to 4. Lordy Lordy. Mostly, after 8 years, you had some gumption in the RHS as well, but now 3000hrs in LHS and not a lot in RHS is not a recipe for a happy outcome if you are still on the gumption learning curve when the book becomes no help.

Greenlights

7th Mar 2014, 17:27

Greenlights, can i ask you what do you mean when you say there is no pilot shortage?

Do you have any kind of support to back it up or is it just your opinion, i am not saying there is something wrong in that but you seem very certain and then i would like to ask?

It's my opinion and it is a fact too.
Basic economy fact : shortage = income go up.
Why this is not the case then ? If someone can explain this to me, that would be nice.
In USA, regional airlines prefer to sell their planes instead of paying their pilots more.

Other point, I heard it many times when I was in the industry. Never happened...

A shortage of accountant or plumbers, yes I would believe it. It is not glamour to do these job, you don't wear a nice uniform, rayban...
But a shortage of pilots wannabe ? NO WAY. They would pay and die for a job in a shiny jet. They just want to fly, they don't care about family, money...(mind changes after 30 y/o though).

Other point, article by BALPA in march 2014 : http://www.balpa.org/My-Airline/Airlines/Balpa/Document-library/Careers/BALPA-Pilot-Shortage-Log-Update-2014-03-01.aspx

no sponsor

8th Mar 2014, 06:54

What does seem to be common between airlines around the world is the desire to hire inexperienced pilots while senior management take lottery sized salaries and bonuses from the business each and every year. The US Airways management just shared $80m between a handful of executives. However, here Easy Jet seems to be in a class of it's own in terms of lottery payouts to its senior team. For a company with a market cap of £6.7bn, and still handing out low-paid temporary contracts to its pilots beggars belief; it's back to the cotton mill ownership business model, except this time the management team take no risk at all.

Capt_Tech

13th Mar 2014, 09:10

At present easyjet are battling to get contract technical staff in the UK, word travels low pay rate low weekly hours no contractors want to work for that.

Alexander de Meerkat

13th Mar 2014, 15:38

I cannot speak for the technical side of the house that Capt_Tech is referring to, and what he says may be true. I can, however, speak for the pilot side of the house that no sponsor refers to and can say with confidence that his comments are not accurate. I have worked for easyJet for ten years and know the system fairly well.

Following years of pilot/management dispute over contracts, the war pretty-well ended with the arrival of the 'New Entrant Contract' about a year or so ago. That basically gave a guaranteed job to anyone who passed the selection system and got rid of the old 'flexicrew' system. It is quite complex and has been done to death elsewhere. The figures I am about to quote are from memory so there may be the odd glitch in there. The basics are that you work on a 'pay by the hour' system on a temporary contract as a Second Officer for one year. Assuming you have not done anything stupid during that year, you are automatically offered a permanent contract after a year as a First Officer at £39k with no sector pay. After doing a year on that you go up to £46k +£17/sector sector pay (work on around 450 sectors a year). After two years on that (it may be one but I think it is two - can't remember!) you become a Senior First Officer on just under £57k + sector pay. The only reason to have that first year (where you will earn more than you do in your second year!) is just to ensure that we have got the right guy. If you are not a dork you will automatically advance into a permanent contract. Therefore the statement given previously about giving out 'low paid temporary contracts' is not correct - the temporary bit only applies to the tiny handful of idiots who get employed by mistake in every airline. It gives easyJet a way of getting rid of people without difficulty any time any time during the first year, should the need arise. The system is still transitioning-in, but I do not know of anyone who has fallen foul of it and not been employed. In reality it is early days yet so it is a bit soon to make absolute judgements, but at this stage it looks fine. Hope that clarifies the situation.

172_driver

13th Mar 2014, 16:05

Alexander,

Thanks for the numbers, give's the rest of the RYR guys a good idea about other LOCO standards. May I ask in general terms if there are any other benefits included in the package, such as: Yearly pay rise to match inflation, pension schemes, loss of license insurance, profit shares, any other relevant benefits?

pitotheat

13th Mar 2014, 17:19

172
The details quoted by AdM are pretty accurate. Once you are given a permanent contract you are subject to the company benefits which include pension 7%, pay rises as negotiated by the relevant union (BALPA UK), loss of licence, benefits package, loyalty and performance bonuses, staff travel, application for base transfer, opportunities in various areas of the business, promotion subject to experience company requirements and demonstration of competence.
These are in general terms and applicable to UK contract. I believe there are some differences with some of the European mainland contracts. Some of the benefits I think are subject to time served restrictions such as loyalty bonus.

172_driver

13th Mar 2014, 17:39

Thanks pitothead!

aslan1982

16th Mar 2014, 09:05

an AVG of 2 pilots a day have left RYN over winter months. Report from a NOR CAPT that they have taken 500 from RYN.

I know RYN are stressed about the amount leaving but they will never admit it to anyone.

Over the winter in my base. 5 capts gone and 2 senior FO's. Im in a small base

Al Murdoch

22nd Mar 2014, 07:58

Heard a rumour (I suppose this is the place for it..) that they are having to wet lease aircraft and dry lease a few more, for the summer season. Any truth in this?

pilot3103

22nd Mar 2014, 12:49

I have heard that some are going into Dublin, so for those wanting Dublin base no summer contracts are being for there, not sure about other bases though.

Zyox

22nd Mar 2014, 14:02

Heard 4 in DUB and 6 in STN.
No summer contracts.

go around flaps15

22nd Mar 2014, 14:19

Some aircraft coming from flydubai as far as I'm aware.

C-141Starlifter

22nd Mar 2014, 14:40

Also, one other company sending 2 planes from Central Europe. They are 400s!

skyrambler

22nd Mar 2014, 15:42

after new exciting 6 years (?) deal in STN everyone understood the message:D...
greed must be punished

polax52

22nd Mar 2014, 16:17

In 1996 and 1997, I worked for a European carrier who over the period of a few years prior to 1997 had got used to having a plentiful supply of Pilots. As a result of course the conditions got worse and worse. The morale got very low. All of a sudden at the end of 1997 the market opened up for Pilots and in the one month of November 30% of Pilots just left. They put salaries up quickly after that but it was too little too late. They were paying high leasing costs for aircraft that they had to sit on the ground. They were out of business a short time later.

172_driver

22nd Mar 2014, 17:18

F14

22nd Mar 2014, 21:08

actually I worked for a European Carrier in 96-97 too. GO Airlines opened and took 5 out of 6 from my batch. 100% pay rises after that, 737 FO's £19300-£38000 pa.

OutsideCAS

22nd Mar 2014, 22:05

I think we are all looking very much forward to eating popcorn and watching the Irish machine grind to a halt as the exodus of crew ramps up. Lets enjoy it.

Hangar6

22nd Mar 2014, 22:14

Well maybe the continuos rush of English wannabes will dry up but I
Doubt it, plus the UK flight schools will just keep reeling in young hopefuls,
FR are now so big they set the standard in Europe, albeit a very low one for
Current and future employees , I for one take no pleasure in watching
Our industry continue the race to the bottom

Alexander de Meerkat

23rd Mar 2014, 01:19

I think we all know that there will always be a continuous supply of wet-behind-the-ears, young 200hr pilots desperate to do any flying job at any salary and to accept any terms and conditions. That is not where the problem lies. The difficulty lies with the retention of captains who will not stay at the scum airlines like Ryanair one day longer than they have to. Norwegian have provided a genuine alternative to Ryanair for 737NG-rated captains and they are understandably flocking there. O'Leary has sown the seeds of his own airline's destruction and frankly it could not happen to a better guy. I do not particularly like Norwegian, but all they have to do is be a little bit better as an employer than Ryanair (not the hardest task some might argue), and they will have an infinite supply of captains to fuel their expansion. How they handle their expansion into the Airbus world remains to be seen - but they will sure have to try hard to get significant numbers of experienced pilots, particularly training captains, to leave easyJet like the Ryanair guys have. EasyJet has lost one guy (top ex-BA captain) to go onto the 787 as a trainer, but that is the only one I know of.

Three Lions

23rd Mar 2014, 08:51

The obscene percentage of raw cadet recruitment by Ryanair and Easyjet whilst there are so many pilots already trained and experienced across europe is the biggest cause for the downward spiral. All that will happen is that OAA and CTC will simply offer more raw cadets from their extensive hold pools and ramp up operations to cover the shortfalls.

For anyone with a modicum of lateral thought will see the stagnation and the effect this career path via the big FTOs through the two low class low cost operators is having on the industry as a whole.

Dont hold much hope that Ryanair will fail, they are geared up to see their way through this, as are easyjet.

These two companies in conjunction with there "PREFERRED TRAINING SUPPLIERS" are responsible for putting so many experienced guys out of work across europe through their respective expansions - yet have done precious little to ensure these experienced and well trained pilots that have already passed through high standard training departments and hold good no incident or untoward backgrounds find work. They have simply replaced them with raw heavily debted cadets with no experience.

These cadets once gaining experience at the loco locos often jump ship to the better operators like emirates and to a lesser extend Norwegian and the process continues.

I did read a rumour on here that the owner of CTC recently bought a new Aston Martin. And im quite sure there are benefits been made at specific points within certain influential points within the system. Meanwhile the degradation for the masses continues.

Dont hold your breath people, the aston martins for some and the reduced t's & c's for almost all will continue for the forseeable future.

10002level

23rd Mar 2014, 09:49

It is surprising how quickly things can change. If you have been round this industry long enough you may remember the days when the likes of Britannia were phoning round the flying schools asking if they had anyone approaching 700 hours looking for a job. Things have changed somewhat in that the training system is much more structured these days, but the movement of captains will trickle down the ladder and in turn the jobs will come to those looking for a first officer position. The lead time for the training establishments is too long for them to react to a sudden fluctuation in the numbers required and the airlines will have to look elsewhere for first officers.

Back to Ryanair, and they will be the first to feel the effects and deservedly so.

ADM, I think that Norwegian will have no problems filling the Airbus seats if the contract and basing opportunities are attractive enough. Alicante or Malaga would suit me fine thanks.

maxed-out

23rd Mar 2014, 10:31

10002 level

I disagree when you say that the lead times are too long and first officers will get jobs.

As soon as the UK airlines need someone they call up ctc and they pluck someone out the pool. Simples.

antonov09

23rd Mar 2014, 12:42

You wear a cheap plastic anorak to work just like many of the Ryanair guys do. You are in a "scum" airline like Ryanair who employs guys/girls on zero hour flexi contracts earning close to 1200 quid a month after already paying 10k for an Airbus type rating. You are in an airline who asks experienced guys to pay 25k for a rating, and then employs the "lucky" few on a starting salary of 38k with nothing on top of that. The rest are flexi zero hour contractors.

I don't "particularly" like Easyjet. I can't stand them. Why are the only scruffy looking pilots walking through LGW you lot?

Hangar6

23rd Mar 2014, 12:48

Air Transport Capacity in Western Europe - A Market Snapshot :: Routesonline (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/240361/air-transport-capacity-in-western-europe-a-market-snapshot/)

These two LCC are so far ahead that it's impossible for the race to the bottom
To be stopped, a shame. :{

polax52

23rd Mar 2014, 13:32

John Smith- If you believe that experience is a fundamentally important part of Flight Safety, In combination with good Quality training. Then it is clear that the other Airlines which you quoted are safer Airlines as they have more respect for experience.

As I have stated in previous posts it is a fact that Pilots get safer with experience. Please ask any 50 year old Pilot if he believes he is safer now than he was when he was 30.

If you have a fantastic selection procedure which selects only the top 5% of Pilots at 200 hours then maybe you can achieve acceptable multi-crew safety. Easyjet may select but it is all based on money, not on safety.

Therefore it is not subjective at all which airlines are "better".

Easy jet and Ryanair are"training" Airlines.

Al Murdoch

23rd Mar 2014, 19:57

1. A surprising number of pilots do not pass Ryanair selection.
2. I have flown with a number of 50 plus pilots whose attitude to safety boils down to "It'll never happen to me".
So there.

polax52

23rd Mar 2014, 21:24

Thanks Al, that is entirely my point, experience changes that attitude.

sidestickbob

24th Mar 2014, 00:23

This mass exodus won't worry RYR - they will just get another load of youngsters to sell their souls and pay a huge amount of money to work for them. They have an almost endless supply of desperate people in debt up to their eyeballs on flying training willing to work for nothing to call upon. Sad but true...

Pablo_Diablo

24th Mar 2014, 00:28

There is a shortage of pilots in Ryanair and there is nothing anyone can do about it until they get the chance to train more people which takes a lot of time.

go around flaps15

24th Mar 2014, 01:04

I think the real trouble will start in 2015. The aircraft will start rolling in for Ryanair around then.

I think that in 2015 Emirates and Norwegian will be recruiting a lot of Boeing guys at the same time.

It's when these two big players start taking Boeing guys in the same period will be when there will possibly be a significant problem for Ryanair.

polax52

24th Mar 2014, 06:09

JS-Thank you for your comment. I do know this industry well enough to know that if you turn up to CTC with 89,000 pounds cash, it is very unlikely that they will turn you away whatever your ability. It is also bad business for you to fail once into CTC. That is why you have a 90% plus pass rate. In the years prior to CTC you had Perth and Oxford approved flight training schools, through which it was very tough to pass. We have moved down the road of the FAA where you just pay for a license and then a job.

If there truly becomes a Pilot shortage, which I doubt, then it will just lead to a further deterioration in standards as less and less able Pilots are employed in to the right seat of these multi-crew aircraft. It is a path to tragedy, I hate to say that, but standards are so persistently being eroded that there is only one way that it will end.

It was not for no reason that having allowed the initial license to really become no evidence of ability that the FAA have had to introduce the 1500 hour rule. This rule comes in directly as a result of FAA inspectors looking at the standard of the low hour Pilots.

sidestickbob

24th Mar 2014, 07:47

Spot on polax52, well said sir.

Flying training nowadays has very little to do with safety, especially when it comes to the low cost carriers. All they want is people who are willing to sell their souls and pay to go to work. Its a very sad state of affairs. The MPL is another step towards lower standards - its only there to help the airlines address a "possible" pilot shortage - its not to make better pilots.

Flying training organisations have been predicting a pilot shortage for the last 50 years! IMHO if you turn up for an "assessment" with them they are very unlikely to turn you away if you're willing to give them £90k+ for training, regardless of your ability.

Alexander de Meerkat

24th Mar 2014, 09:58

antonov09 - The wonderful thing about PPRuNe is you can make statements with no basis in reality and the gullible and foolish just lap it all up as fact. In your case, however, you are actually are correct on one important point about easyJet - some of us do indeed wear cheap plastic anoraks to work. On the other minor details of easyJet contracts you are totally wrong. You obviously work at Gatwick and it is understandable you cannot stand us, as we are more successful than nearly all the other airlines there put together. Like all conspiracy theorists, it may be difficult to dislodge some of your neuroses about us, but I will do my best. If, however, you believe that the CIA kiiled JFK, man did not land on the moon, the Illuminati run the world and that MI5 killed Princess Diana it may prove difficult.

No pilot at easyJet now gets taken on with a 'zero hour contract' as you describe. Without exception they get taken on at some point on the New Entrant Contract scale, but do earn £1200 for 8 months. The brand new MPL guys or CTC cadets go onto what is effectively a year's probation at the end of which they get permanent contracts. Absolutely every one of them knows the deal beforehand and the times at which move up the scale (annually). From the second they arrive at easyJet they are destined to go onto that permanent contract if they do not mess up too badly (like any airline there is a minimum standard, which even you would support I hope). There is a clear route from where they are to where I am as a TRE. It can be done from zero to TRE in around 10-12 years if that is what you want and can pass the interviews, courses etc. A 10 year TRE at easyJet earns around £160k a year - not quite Lufthansa, but not exactly the stuff of starvation in the street. There are various contract variations depending on what country you are based in, so I will quote the UK one as that is the one I know best. A Captain at easyJet (we have promoted around 120 this year) earns a basic of £93,821 plus sector pay of around £30 a sector (you do about 400-450 sectors a year at Gatwick) plus they get 7% of their salary paid by the Company into a pension fund. The main topic of conversations among captains is how they are going to manage to keep their salary below £100k/year to avoid the high tax bracket - not easy, but a problem most people would prefer to have. You can become a captain at easyJet from arriving as a cadet in around 6 years (some of done it quicker). The key thing is the whole deal is not like Ryanair with every pilot having some variation on a hidden contract - every pilot knows exactly the deal and knows exactly the deal the guy sat next to him is on. We are not perfect, but we are completely transparent. As a little aside, this week I received a further £3600 into my current account from a share dividend. I have also been putting in £125 a month into a share scheme for the last few years. I cash them in every month - this month I got £1350 tax-free on my £125 investment. Next month I will do the same. Yes, it is hard to bear, but I am coping. Also, like nearly all easyJet pilots of all ranks I have been putting £250 a month over 3 years (total investment £9000) into another share scheme run by the Company. Assuming the share price does not collapse between now and August, I expect to get around £55k back on my investment. There are indeed some shocking problems of capital gains tax to consider, but again I am coping. Oh, and before I forget, I also receive around £2k in profit-related pay just before Christmas - I hope to do the same this year. And finally, I am about to receive about £3600 net in back holiday pay in May. It is a terrible airline, flying these horrible brand new Airbuses to more destinations than most airlines in the world could offer. But yes, you were absolutely right - the plastic anoraks are a terrible item of clothing.

Ivor Fynn

24th Mar 2014, 10:16

ADM,

good reply to a moron!:D:D:D

The Flying Cokeman

24th Mar 2014, 10:41

A shame there is no like button on this site ADM :ok:

polax52

24th Mar 2014, 11:21

ADM certainly shows the benefit of having a Union clearly this is the problem which is causing the awful situation at Ryanair.

NordicMan

24th Mar 2014, 11:28

Spot on ADM!

ReallyAnnoyed

24th Mar 2014, 11:40

AdM, you forgot to mention the loyalty pay. It is paid as a percentage of basic salary. For FOs/SFOs, 5% at third and fourth anniversary, 10% at 5th. and subsequent anniversary. For CPTs, it's 5% at 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. anniversary, 10% from 5th. to 9th., and 15% annually from the 10th.

The scale is not reset when changing seats, so when you become CPT, you are in all likelyhood on the 10% scale. It is all pensionable as well.

zerograv

24th Mar 2014, 13:09

Nice to learn that CTC applicants are able to pay their debts rather quickly.

Maybe there is even room for CTC to increase their training fees :oh:

Alexander de Meerkat

24th Mar 2014, 13:54

ReallyAnoyed - my apologies. I did indeed forget the loyalty bonus. As a 10 year plus Captain I receive once per year 15% of my basic salary plus my 17.5% for being a TRE. At today's salary that is £16535.21 before tax or £9921.57 after tax - that is net into my current account in addition to my normal salary. The stress it generates in trying to keep under the £100k limit is indeed vexing, but I am coping. Again, just to emphasise the point, every detail I have given is available to all pilots and not just a few at easyJet. There is a clearly mapped-out route that can take an MPL pilot at easyJet from lowly cadet to senior training captain with none of the big crevasses that used to exist. Hard fought for, but that is what we now have. It has been good for the Company to have peace in our ranks and good for all pilots to have a clearly identified career structure. We are not perfect but we are way better than Ryanair.

I am not saying all this to boast or to lord it over other people. I am trying to show that the ridiculous comments of some contributors on here, who equate easyJet to Ryanair, are just totally off the plot. There is one crucial difference between the two companies - the presence of credible trade unions who have negotiated fair deals in difficult times. I unashamedly like working for easyJet and intend to do so for the remainder of my flying career. We all know there are downward pressures on terms and conditions in the airline industry - Ryanair have led the charge to the bottom. EasyJet tried valiantly to follow them into the abyss, but were prevented from doing so by tough negotiations from a position of strength - brought about by the presence of BALPA and other excellent European pilots' unions. For reasons I cannot fathom, Ryanair pilots thought they would do better without BALPA - the results of that decision are on this very thread for all to see. Somehow we missed out on sorting the plastic anorak, but I live in hope that even that may one day be resolved to save us from looking like tramps.

24th Mar 2014, 14:48

Don't forget the two weeks salary worth of shares (limit £3k) we are also about to be given........

The suggestion that any TRE would accept anything other than the required standard is crass. Just because people can afford the training DOES NOT guarantee success......you still have to achieve the required CAA/EASA standard which is who TRE's act on behalf of. You seriously think a TRE is going to put his/her reputation/integrity on the line just because someone has paid £xx,000 for their training :hmm:

Alycidon

24th Mar 2014, 15:34

ADM said

For reasons I cannot fathom, Ryanair pilots thought they would do better without BALPA - the results of that decision are on this very thread for all to see.

remember that FR pilots are not all British, many are members of IALPA which is the Irish union, so BALPA recognition would not necessarily be acheivable.

pitotheat

24th Mar 2014, 15:47

AdM has repeated what others have already said about the T&Cs within easyJet. For a fellow Pilot albeit from another Airline to hold such a strong negative view of easyJet speaks volumes for his/her character and ability to hold a fair opinion. However, whilst upholding the view of the poor quality anorak can I also add my dislike for the pullover made from some cheap synthetic material that makes my hair stand on end when I pull the thing off. So now we have added to our wows:
1. As Captains remaining under the punitive £100k taxable pay level
2. Cheap anoraks disliked by crew and other airline employees
3. Synthetic material used in jumpers that simply ruin my hair
In summary the company is a disaster!

Being a superstitious type I steer away from tempting fate however since easyJets start in 1995 shall we compare the safety records of the legacy carriers such as BA, Air France, Lufti, KLM, Iberia with easyJet. Anyone want to make any conclusions? So the "experts" on this forum who bring safety issues up from time to time are basing their views on what? The answer is there is no statistical or factual evidence to make any of the sweeping statements about risk or safety so please don't suggest otherwise.
At least with the warmer weather coming problems 2 and 3 on my list are becoming less of an issue for the next few months!

McBruce

24th Mar 2014, 18:54

ADM, It was a lot more complicated than you make it out too be, a bit similar to EZY UK covering EZY Portual striking (or potentially!), theres more beneath the surface. The BALPA/RYR fight fell flat on its face because RYR threatened to close down all the small UK bases, reduce based personnel at the larger ones and base the aircraft in Europe and operate in the reverse if recognition was achieved in the UK. The question was then asked of BALPA, can they do this? can you stop them?

A lot was learned from that campaign and the experience gained showed that a pan European initiative was the only way to tackle this problem and this squarely puts us into the RPG era.

Aluminium shuffler

24th Mar 2014, 20:59

There is a lot of crowing from a small number of EZY guys about how much better they are. Having been at both airlines, I can tell you with certainty that they are pretty much the same, with minor differences. Substitute direct aggression for smiling assassins, genuine 5/4 roster for a worse roster with a better leave system and a few other trimmings, and to work at they're basically the same. Same kind of operation, similar size aircraft, similar standards of ops/training. So why the peeing contest?

It seems a number of the EZY crowd buy into the management "orange" bull, somehow losing perspective on the fact that they haven't got a great job either.

Ultimately, both airlines treat their crew badly and neither pay as they should for the hard graft and high standards that the bulk of their crews operate to. The current contracts for EZY FOs are dreadful, so don't be smug about them. Captains seem to be significantly better paid, but remember that RYR have never had a pay-to-fly scheme and pay their FOs reasonably.

There are a lot of things to see improved, but how about those smug, easily bought EZY pilots get a little pride back and stop attacking colleagues who have a pretty bad lot and instead focus their frustrations on management. We should all support each other, but by turning against fellow pilots, you are defending corrupt managers.

By the way, the high rate of income tax starts at £150k, I think, and you only pay the higher rate on earnings above whatever the threshold actually is, so trying to keep earnings below £100k would be damned stupid. Or are you confessing to manipulating declared earnings, ie. tax evasion?

james brown

24th Mar 2014, 22:54

Ah how predictable. Anytime anyone dares to question his beloved Easyjet, our rodent friend comes out shouting about how much he earns.

I think I've yet to meet a Ryanair Captain who complained about his remuneration either Alex. Money isn't everything dear boy.

You place Ryanair in the "scum" bracket. Sadly they are only just before easy jet in the scum airline league table you seem to have in mind. The key difference is that whilst Ryanair's pilot hater has a name and public face, all of the orange ones hide behind closed doors.

There will be a flood of orange drivers beating a path to Norwegian and their Airbus fleet. One hears the state of all companies in day to day conversation. and knowing several people who have worked elsewhere who now are fortunate enough to work for Norwegian, I am confident in that statement.

The Ryanair exodus does hold a lot of truth. I was having coffee with an ex Ryanair FO at the sim recently. He received a call from the Chief Pilot offering any base if he stayed. Apparently unheard of until now.

Best wishes to you all. Even if you do think the additional rate of income tax begins at £100k.

DooblerChina

24th Mar 2014, 23:03

Gordon Brown is responsible for a lot of of things, one of which is the loss of personal allowance for earning over 100k. Meaning earnings between 100 and 115 are taxed at 60%

Keeping taxable earnings below 100k through additional pension contribution is perfectly legal.

pitotheat

25th Mar 2014, 00:08

I've heard it all. A lesson on the morality of paying in full ones tax liability from a former Ryanair pilot. Oh the irony. As has been said using the legal and legitimate avenue of pension contribution to remain below £100k is an entirely sensible rather than stupid thing to do.

The Flying Cokeman

25th Mar 2014, 01:12

Let's see if Norwegian will still be able to get their Airbusses. Their financial side of the business is far from impressive unfortunately! :sad:

polax52

25th Mar 2014, 01:20

Pitotheat:

I have heard the arguments about how Air France or BA or whatever other Airline have worse safety records than the European LCC's, suggesting that low experience is a positive safety factor. The reality is it is not, this is an experiment with low experience and substandard testing that is yet to be concluded. The longer the good fortune continues the worse the situation becomes.

I have until recently been working with a Non European Airline who employ expat Captains and fly them with low hour cadets who have trained either in approved U.S. or European schools, I can honestly say that the standards of the majority was shockingly low.

What has happened in my view follows the law of unintended consequences:

In the late 1990's, a number of British Airlines were unhappy with the Standards of the self improver Pilots who were on the market. Some management Pilots saw this as an opportunity and set up CTC and ran approved courses which were designed to meet the requirements of Airlines such as Britannia who's standards were high. At that time the checking standards were also very high and you really achieved something when you passed the UK instrument rating and GFT's, most people were unable to do it.
As time has gone on the training organizations have gained more autonomy and have been able to set their own standards with regard to the checks, of course good business dictates that you want to achieve close to a 100% pass rate for your customers. This means that the license is worth no more than the FAA license which schools do absolutely guarantee you will pass.

I understand that at the moment the LCC's are able to select their graduates but if there is any sort of shortage that will not be the case.

This is an experiment, which started with efforts to raise standards and now is having the opposite effect.

Three Lions

25th Mar 2014, 07:05

I have to put my cards on the table and admit having never worked for either Loco, however I have shared a cockpit with more than one person who has worked for both companies and on reflection the recent comments laid out in this thread ring true the opinions that were shared with me were either ezy were slightly better because reason xyz or ryanair were slightly better because reason abc.

I know people who currently work at both airlines some very close friends, some friends and some passing aquaintances (as you tend to end up attracting in this job) and there are some blissfully happy people at both operators but there are many many more who are not happy for a whole raft of reasons. Maybe I cant really comment having no direct experience however the second hand story is of one where neither company is much better than the other

The one amazing fact on this particular forum is the one whereby ryanair pilots seem to be realistic about their current situation whereas some of easyjets at times seem to have an opinion of their situation and position in the percieved "pecking order" of decent operators, at times that is to be honest laughable. Each to their own.

I personally dont class ADM in this category I have to say, fair play this is a guy who has obviously done very well and is very proud of himself, his standing and his company this makes perfect sense to me. I am told there are some excellent TREs at ezy (and for balance Im told the same at RYR) And someone who has reached this level within a company has every right to feel smug, and why wouldnt you really enjoy working for a company in this situation?

However that said the bulk of the orange lot and just dont seem to understand the role their particular company are playing in the damage that is affecting the whole industry ruin the UK/Europe due to the LOCO model. Their preferred training provider for me is a large part of this statement. At the risk of been shot down in flames by the orange army, and this is just a guess, this FTO is possibly why such an attitude emanates from the orange crowd on this board and not the Ryanair crowd. As my own experience of the "product" from this FTO can show the same levels of misguided arrogance. Obviously there are of course the decent down to earth characters I have also met that trained there. This attitude that seems to be created somewhere is clear to see on the last couple of pages on this thread. I guess this is one unpopular function of P2F (my personal opinion as more of an old school thinker this is what an overpriced training course actually equates to with links directly to an airline)

In a nutshell as I see it as an innocent bystander, not a lot of difference in the two companies. Ryanairs pilots dont seem to be pulled into the company propoganda like Easyjets. Ryanair are having their pilots pulled form the Loco model to better places. Everyone waiting with bated breath and fingers crossed to see if the same happens to Ezy once the A320s arrive. Oh and I for one am actually pleased about the tacky plastic uniforms - It is the most amazing thing of all that everyone agrees on something :)

pitotheat

25th Mar 2014, 10:37

Polax
I don't understand the points you are trying to make in your first 2 paragraphs. Of course the longer any company operate the closer they are going to get to an event whether they are LCC or legacy. Low hour cadets have been joining airlines well before LCC were ever thought of. I had the opportunity to attend Hamble in the late 1970s with 0 hours.
As for comparing standards of any European airline with some of the operators around the world it is hardly a fair comparison. If you have just returned from such an environment you should know this more than anyone.
This thread has drifted into the normal tired argument of how good things were before LCC arrived. The reality is LCC have changed the airline industry for ever. More choice and competition have given the travelling public better options and lower cost. Providing an increase in employment within the whole of the tourist industry at the cost of Pilots no longer enjoying a very lavish lifestyle. However, the present T&Cs are pretty good. Talk to your friends who aren't cosseted in a legacy airline about how their jobs have changed. Nothing stays the same.

Lord Spandex Masher

25th Mar 2014, 10:47

So now we have added to our wows:
1. As Captains remaining under the punitive £100k taxable pay level
2. Cheap anoraks disliked by crew and other airline employees
3. Synthetic material used in jumpers that simply ruin my hair

So that's your list of good things. Amazing.

Can you list the woes you face?

sk8erboi

25th Mar 2014, 11:45

Dear lord give it rest would you. Please.

Dick

This is an anonymous forum. Please don't publish ADM's real name. Or at least what he thinks it is and likes to be referred to as in the Sim.

Did you know he's a TRE?

clunk1001

25th Mar 2014, 11:50

Well said Dick. :ok:

It's all ADM seems to post about. I cant stand people like that.

PS.
ADM, I earn more than you, I work less than you....but I also pay less tax than you too. :p

Alexander de Meerkat

25th Mar 2014, 12:23

clunk1001 - absolutely delighted for you. So let me understand this correctly - you can't stand people who boast about what they earn, but you are desperate to tell us all that you earn more than me and pay less tax. Given that is the sort of thing you can't stand, are you a self-harmer?

dick byrne - the only relevance to me being a TRE is that it affects the financial calculations I quoted. We live in our little PPRuNe world where countless people post drivel and misinformation about different companies. Statements are made here, and indeed many other places, that are simply rubbish about easyJet terms and conditions. Boys in their bedrooms type away a lot of codswallop and to an extent we are all influenced by it. I am careful to quote accurate figures and the best way of doing that is to quote the ones that pertain to me and the UK contract under which I operate. You will note I do not quote the German, French or Italian ones (they are all better than the UK ones) because I am not involved enough with their contract arrangements to avoid inaccuracies about detail. The key point I have made is that the Ts & Cs described are available to all and not just a few - something you do not seem to have grasped or understood in any way. I have also said that some will leave us (only one I know of actually has) to join Norwegian. Frankly I hope loads do, as it puts upward pressure on our own terms and conditions. Inevitably, some of our excellent Scandinavian pilots will do so when the Airbus comes in, as they want to be based nearer home - I do not blame them and will wish them every success. I do, however, stand by the view that Ryanair's treatment of its pilots is a different league to everyone else's. Like all internet forums, it is never really easy to judge the individual you are speaking to, and would ask you not to judge me without meeting me in the flesh. (It is of course entirely possible that I am a complete liar, do not work for easyJet, do not know what a TRE is and live in a fantasy world - you will just have to believe what you want.) I do not pretend to have it all worked out, but I do know that the key difference between our companies is the presence of unions to protect the pilot workforce. I am very encouraged by the brave attempts of Ryanair pilots to sort out the contracting mess and wish them every success. The reality is that Ryanair need to have an exodus of pilots in order to change the way things are and in that sense the arrival of Norwegian is great news for both those that stay and those that go. We are all in the same game of ensuring the best possible terms and conditions in a hard-nosed world. Good luck to those brave enough to fight the battle at Ryanair.

Aluminimum Shuffler - if you have worked for both companies then you do indeed have a good grasp of the situation. I would have to temper that with the fact that if you have not worked at easyJet in the last 3 years, the world you left is very different today. The other area you seem to have no idea about is the UK tax situation. If you think high rate tax begins at £150k you are completely wrong. All UK tax payers get a 'Personal Allowance' which makes the first £9440 earned tax free. The Personal Allowance reduces where your income is above £100,000 - by £1 for every £2 of income above the £100,000 limit. What that means is that between £100k and £118k you pay 62% to the government - i.e. you only see 38% of what you earn. So it is not by direct income tax (the 45% you are referring to above £150k) but the result is far worse. It is frankly outrageous and affects every captain in our company - most of whose earnings are in that bracket. Therefore, there is a massive imperative to reduce your earnings below the £100k limit. I hope that makes sense.

Regarding safety, easyJet has many faults but they are onto safety in a big way. I have worked for five airlines and easyJet is up there with the best in terms of safety (my previous one was excellent too). There is much talk about the famous cadets - BA, Lufthansa, Air France and KLM all take cadets and seem to have avoided disaster with them. I have always favoured a broader recruitment policy at easyJet, and believe in not just cadets but taking more experienced pilots too. The issue I would have is the percentage split between cadets and experienced pilots at the recruitment stage, but I do not see us as being drastically different in that department from the legacy carriers. Perhaps others may correct me. Anyway, apologies if I have unwittingly hijacked this thread to correct some rubbish written - I will stand back and let others with an appetite for believing everything written on PPRuNe as fact feast themselves on a diet of misinformation. The truth can be just so boring.

clunk1001

25th Mar 2014, 13:26

ADM - I'm surprised someone who earns as much as you doesn't have a basic understanding of irony. That's ironic.

But rather than spending time looking that word up in a dictionary - why don't you just tell us all again about your life as a TRE? :)

Journey Man

25th Mar 2014, 14:00

... can we definitively answer if three hundred pilots have left Ryanair recently?

16024

25th Mar 2014, 14:07

I've heard it all. A lesson on the morality of paying in full ones tax liability from a former Ryanair pilot. Oh the irony.

I will bet you 40-odd pennies in the pound, plus 2 sets of NI, PRSI, plus any other "bailing out the Cetic-flipping-tiger" fee you can think of, that this former Ryanair pilot paid more tax than you, so let's nip that one.

I left, (and am happier and better off) and I know loads of others who have done the same, or are on the way.

Which with beautiful symmetry, brings us back to the thread topic.

Edit: beaten to it by the two posts above!

Callsign Kilo

25th Mar 2014, 17:45

We live in our little PPRuNe world where countless people post drivel and misinformation about different companies.

Ha ha, I liked that bit. While you may be factual about the UK arm of Easyjet, some of the rubbish you spout about Ryanair, especially concerning Industrial Action, is nothing more than hearsay and crew room codswollop. Remember, you're a TRE. Be factual.

Pablo_Diablo

25th Mar 2014, 19:03

Alexander it´s great to see first hand the conditions in Easyjet. So comparing the two the gap is getting bigger and bigger it looks like. Looking at the developments separately in Ryanair and Easyjet the reasons for the differences gets very obvious and perhaps it´s time to reverse that trend for the Ryanair guys. I really hope so anyway since they really are worth a lot more than what they get presently.

So perhaps there is a window of opportunity here for it.

boyo975

25th Mar 2014, 20:05

Worked for both, almost equal time (about 6 years), captain throughout so maybe I can add a little objectivity.

Which one is best? They are both such huge companies, the spectrum is very wide within both.

Both have excellent people working for them, the actual job is much easier in easyjet as the tools are provided to do it properly. But on the other side, I've shared the flightdeck with far more interesting people in Ryanair (and learnt much more about different cultures). The opportunity to climb to various roles are much easier in Ryanair but rewarded much better in easyjet. Routes are now similar so there's not much difference there, they weren't historically and the number of circle to land in 6 years at easy is equal to a month at Ryanair. The ferocity of the operation is definitely different (it felt like hitting the stops when I changed company), and fudging of times to appease the OTP doesn't exist in easy! I'm definitely more relaxed and less fatigued.

Financially, I'm much better off simply because of the union. The reason for leaving one and joining the other was not financial, but I was on a good contract and I realise that things have gone South significantly since I left.

I made lifelong friends whilst at Ryanair, and support their fight to improve T&Cs. This fight is paramount to setting the benchmark and is in everyone's interest. We must rejoice that we have another competitor to keep both giants on their guard. From the friends I have that have joined Norwegian, they seem very happy and their future looks very interesting.

Would I jump ship again? I don't think so, unless they make it much more attractive and their future looks more secure. I'm happy with my lot.

P.S airbus over Boeing any day of the week!

RAT 5

26th Mar 2014, 11:33

It's amazing; the change in attitudes. Years ago, before LoCo's it was principally the national schedule carriers, division 2 schedule carriers and the charters. (I have not forgotten the freight boys). The charter guys were striving to improve their lot and used the best of the division 2 schedule carriers as a datum. (it was always realised that the cherry on the cake of BA, KLM, AF, LH etc. was not realistic, but Bcal, VZ, Condor, Martinair etc were.) Those who kept the faith did achieve much improved T's & C's. Then along came the LoCo's and they were the only people hiring. Their T's & C's became the datum, as they were the only ones available. In the early 2000's there was a pissing contest between ez & RYR management. (Go was not yet born and was short lived anyway). RYR pumped out that its guys were the best paid B737 jockeys in Europe. Utter twaddle, but no-one contradicted them. Since then RYR T's & C's have slid downhill and not for many years have they trumpeted their salary superiority. They have only trumpeted their profits, job security, stable roster and new shiny toys. But there's much more to the life of a worker than those.
Now, it is back to a bun fight between the rewards of ez & RYR, again. No where do we hear the comparisons of old between the LoCo's and the longer established packages from the profit making schedule carriers. There is more to the market place than Orange & Blue. Why are people setting their sights so low? Talking to mates in BA, KLM, HV, VZ, LH they are on another planet compared to the new boys on the block. They are retiring on pensions more than my final years income, and years sooner. Ticket price comparisons in Europe between the LoCo's and the nationals are showing very competitive bottom line costs on many routes. Raise your sights and widen your horizons or you will descend blinkered into the darkness and wondered how you ever let it happen.

SD.

26th Mar 2014, 16:54

Pilots will continue to leave Ryanair at the first available opportunity. As soon as the shiny jet syndrome wears off, it becomes apparent that they treat their staff pretty awful.

Many of the new breed now think that its perfectly normal not to have any annual leave during the school holidays, no fair basing system and being part of a limited company set-up based in Ireland.

Long may the exodus continue. :ok:

Terrain Noted

26th Mar 2014, 17:29

According to ppjn.com, Emirates will open a new base in Chinese owned airport Schwerin Parchim in northern Germany. Heavy expansion into US & European markets planned.
If this is true, there will be much more pilots leaving...
The future is looking so interesting!

LNIDA

26th Mar 2014, 17:32

I think it's highly unlikely that T&C's will improve until flights are being cancelled due lack of crew and from what I hear its not just about the money, far from it, so any change to address the real issues will be neither quick or cheap to implement.

Norwegian have taken large numbers of ex FR crew and will likely to continue to do so this year, it gets interesting when thinking through how or if they introduce the airbus fleet on order, where will they go and who will fly them, clearly any movement from the NG fleet to the bus will mean a need to back fill the NG jobs, a present there is no plan to phase out the NG, the bus is filling a gap until the MAX turns up in a couple of years time.

Whether Norwegian can poach experienced staff from easyJet in the same way they have from FR i think is unlikely, but there are a lot of people in the sandpit who want out with airbus ratings

go around flaps15

26th Mar 2014, 17:51

I don't think they will poach many/if any from Easy. As Alexander has stated the terms and conditions at Easy are very very reasonable and it's like comparing apples with Lobsters in comparison to those that are at FR. They might get a few who fancy a Spanish or Canaries base but that's it as far as I can see it. The carrot just isn't big enough.

However I think they will take a lot of guys from Wizz. And I think they will have enough between them and a few guys coming back from the sandpit to get by.

The terms and conditions at Wizz are.....well let's face it absolutely appalling and in a similar way to Ryanair that is where the influx will come from.

However just like Ryanair they have very competent crews. So I think Norwegian will be only too happy to take them into the world of side sticks and all sorts of different control laws ;)

jeehaa

26th Mar 2014, 20:56

@ Terrain Noted: April fools...

Aluminium shuffler

27th Mar 2014, 14:49

Pitot, you show your misconceptions by assuming all RYR pilots are contractors and tax fiddlers. Relatively few captains are contractors, and few of the contractor pilots (of any rank) try to fiddle anything - it seems many have been misinformed by professional accountants and authorities about where they should pay taxes and social contributions, so they may have paid them in the wrong country. But paid they have. I think an apology is owed by you to those individuals.

polax52

27th Mar 2014, 15:53

Well! Aluminum shuffler, I don't think it would be so difficult to put all employees onto a legal employment contract, pay all the appropriate taxes and social insurance costs that are required legally in Europe. Then we could save all the confusion.

Then have a secret ballot of all employees as to whether they would like union representation. That way Ryanair would conform not only with the laws of all countries in Europe but also the spirit of the law.

JW411

27th Mar 2014, 17:07

Perhaps the headline of "300 pilots have left Ryanair this year" should be more realistically be "3,000 pilots did not leave Ryanair this year".

Being realistic, I very much doubt that Ryanair will have any trouble filling the gaps.

My last company lost getting on for 10% of their pilots on some years during the 19 years that I was there despite pretty good conditions (which I am pleased to report that I am enjoying in retirement).

We never had any trouble filling the spaces.

polax52

27th Mar 2014, 17:19

JW411....... I think that depends, Airlines run tight margins as you know, if they lost 10% spread evenly over 1 year then maybe they would cover all flights. 10% in 1 month would be a major problem as aircraft would have to sit on the ground. 10% every year, well it depends who was leaving but if training department Pilots were leaving that fast, then that also would be a significant problem.

The other problem is resignation is contagious....

RAT 5

27th Mar 2014, 17:28

I don't think it would be so difficult to put all employees onto a legal employment contract, pay all he appropriate taxes and social insurance costs that are required legally in Europe. Then we could save all the confusion.

I think that would be exceedingly difficult if it remains a voluntary option for RYR. Surely you can't imagine they would vote to increase their cost base by a massive amount. It'll never happen until the so-called authorities insist upon it.

polax52

27th Mar 2014, 17:50

You're right

JW411

27th Mar 2014, 18:19

I know exactly what you are saying and I do not disagree. I was heavily into the union side of my last company and I can tell you that pilots will always move on (unless you are happy to sit in the right seat of a BA airplane for 20 years or so to hopefully pick up a juicy carrot at the end). I successfully negotiated a good final salary pension scheme, loss of license insurance scheme and God knows what else but still we lost pilots.

The fact of the matter is that a measureable proportion of your pilot workforce will always have itchy feet. After all, everyone knows that the grass is ALWAYS greener on the the other side.

Most of us have great difficulty in realising that we have actually "ARRIVED".

I ended up after a long career in aviation in a job that I realised was probably the best kept secret in aviation. I was only flying 350-400 hours per annum but, most of it was at night. My mates who were in the bucket and spade brigade (such as Britannia) were flying 800 hours per annum and half of that was at night and their pension scheme was worse than mine.

I never ceased to be amazed at the progression of new pilots. At interview, they would cheerfully kill to get the job. During training (and I usually did the simulator and the aircraft bit) they were as keen as mustard and usually did pretty well. Most of my students turned out well but there was always a percentage that I just KNEW from Day One were going to let me down.

The complainants would usually start after the second recurrent session in the simulator (a year later) and their vision of their perceived future in aviation and their aspirations would have changed somewhat.

And these were the days when the company paid for their type rating. So, as long as pilots are prepared to pay for their type ratings, why should Ryanair lose any sleep?

Incidentally, years ago I was working for a Part 121 operator in the USA. Our ultimate boss was a redneck who had never hired anyone unless they already had a type rating. He had never paid for a type rating course. We persuaded him to run a couple of courses. It was my pleasure to check out one of our British F/Os as a captain in the presence of the FAA examiner (the aircraft was a DC-10).

Two weeks later, the little bugger did a runner and left me and a lot of my friends with a huge amount of egg on our faces having got his qualification.

Ryanair will have no trouble filling their seats for the foreseeable future.

pitotheat

27th Mar 2014, 18:48

Aluminium Shuffler. You do not have to be an apologist for a company that relies so heavily on ducking its responsibility to the wider society of where it operates to enhance its bottom line. Ignorance of tax laws is no excuse regardless of where you might get advice from. Take the time to read and understand what you are signing for at the bottom of your income tax form. Too many Ryanair pilots have revelled in the fact that they have avoided paying tax to think it is not a commonly held view. It is only in the last few years when European wide tax authorities have been taken a closer look that the fear of being caught has started to change mindsets.

polax52

27th Mar 2014, 18:48

JW411- I respect your experience and view, but your conclusion is dependent on the one situation that none of us want to consider. The standard of cadets at Ryanair as I have discussed on other threads does not approach the standards you were trained to at hamble or Oxford or the Air Force 30+ years ago. Now there is almost no failure, pay and pass. Any serious incident will drive regulators toward the FAA conclusions. Changing things for LCC's. I just wish the change would happen without the incident.

It is true that Ryanair can fill the seats with 250 hour F/O's and 3000 hour captains but I'm sorry, I was a wet behind the ears F/O with 3000 hours. I accept that with the military that is different.

Aluminium shuffler

27th Mar 2014, 19:58

Polax, re. post 131 I couldn't agree more. Most of the contractors I ever asked wanted to be employees, but didn't get the choice. They weren't happy about their tax arrangements either, but if they didn't toe the line, they'd be removed from the roster. That's the real benefit of contractors for an "employer" - there are no dismissals or grievance procedures. It's a case of do as you're told or lose your income.

Pitotheat, I am not defending the company - many of their actions are indefensible. They are reaping what they have sown, and I hope many more find good alternatives. I am merely responding to the arrogant, anti-RYR pilot rants of some misguided EZY fools.

polax52

27th Mar 2014, 20:13

[Edited by admin]

go around flaps15

28th Mar 2014, 00:03

I was at Ryanair for four years. I complied fully with the law and payed my taxes.

Don't paint everyone with the same brush pitotheat. Some of us go to work, pay our taxes just like everyone else regardless of weather we are self employed contractors or not.

Thankfully I'm no longer a self employed contractor. But it matters not I've always payed my due taxes. End of story.

calypso

28th Mar 2014, 06:16

Well done you but the fact remains that a lot of Ryan pilots do not pay any tax. I know that because I know a few of them and they have told me. They live in fear of the tax authorities catching up with them, although in the mean time is Kchink!

Aluminium shuffler

28th Mar 2014, 11:22

Polax, rant all you wish at RYR; I have no issue with that. I do take issue with you ranting about their pilots, who are no different to EZY's or any other company's. Most of them are unhappy about a multitude of issues, but for one reason or another are not in a position to change things. The is no power in the workforce because of how the company plays multinational law when it suits them and Irish law when it doesn't, and because this game makes compulsory union recognition impossible. Those pilots that can take jobs elsewhere are doing so, just as I voted with my feet when I decided that EZY was a bad place to be. Don't blame the RYR pilots for what is outside of their control - you don't see them bad mouthing EZY pilots, do you?

Calypso, there are a handful that may be evading tax, not a large number. There are always a few bad apples, and don't pretend that other airlines with contractors don't have the same issue. I knew a few in my time at EZY, just as I met a couple at RYR.

Aluminium shuffler

28th Mar 2014, 18:06

777Scotty, I sometimes wish this forum had a "like" button.

The mass resignations are a double edged sword for Ts and Cs. While they may concentrate RYR mgmt's mind, and that doesn't seem to be the case yet, the availability of so many fairly well trained and experienced senior FOs and Captains of vary levels of experience doesn't do much to increase competition amongst other companies recruitment teams. I'm not sure that this really will be the start of a T&C upswing that so many of us wish for. I hope I'm very wrong.

WantingBetterTerms

29th Mar 2014, 00:47

Thanks a lot for a lively discussion guys.

It seems that no one has been able to confirm this rumor yet.

I hope someone can shed a light on this so I will post this question again with an updated number that I recently heard.

Is it true that around 500 pilots have left RYR recently?

Ditched

29th Mar 2014, 07:31

I think RYR find themselves between a rock and a hard place. They have manoeuvrered themselves into a position where there is no easy way out.

On one side, Norwegian and others can continue to take RYR pilots. I was quite surprised to see how quickly many of my collegues jumped ship. Other airlines only have to offer marginally better contracts and they will have a steady supply of well trained and efficient operators.

On the other side there are the movements within the pilot group. Even if Ryanair wants to get everybody on solid set of T&C's they run the risk of industrial action, there are many frustrated pilots in Ryanair ready for 'revenge'. This is something Ryanair cannot afford especially this summer where it seems we will be under-staffed. It's not only pilots leaving, lots of cabincrew are fed up as well.

So Ryanair are in a position where they are damned either way. And yes, this situation is entirely of their own making. Traditionally they have choosen to buckle up and weather the storm, and I think that that is what they will do this time again. We have allready seen the soft approach with the basing issues. Maybe we will see some more of this but I don't see how this will be enough to keep people from leaving.

I don't have any numbers on how many pilots are leaving or have left. From what I see its mostly the experienced F/O's (>2500h) and the more experienced captains that are leaving. Rumour is that the IAA is getting concerned with the overall experience levels on the flightdeck and may impose rostering restrictions, which will further complicate this summer's schedules.

captplaystation

29th Mar 2014, 11:20

It is a certainty that for around the last 8-12mths 80-95% of new hires in NAS have been ex FR.

That must equate to 300+ to NAS alone.

I have heard that Emirates is similarly well disposed towards ex FR candidates, so I can well imagine that at least 500 have fled the Harp in the last 12mths.

Given that the 5/4 roster was the only selling point, and given the devaluation of that now that everyone is in reality a "floater" so therefore likely to easily lose 1-2 days commuting, why would you stay ? what is there to like anymore ?

As we used to trumpet back in the REPA days, this is all about R E S P E C T , this is unlikely to be forthcoming anytime soon, so you have to look elsewhere if you want it. Twas always thus, but roster stability & the "fools gold" of signing up as a "contractor" compensated, none of these carrots now exist in reality, so, the exodus will continue.

Heard strong rumours of Fly Dubai airframes being wet leased for Summer.

Historically any anticipated shortage has always been avoided at the last moment by someone else going bust. . . perhaps opening bases in BRU/FCO could have been partially motivated by the hope that one of the incumbent carriers might be helped "over the edge" thereby freeing up a few local drivers.

Aluminium shuffler

29th Mar 2014, 21:06

There is a lot of noise about base transfers, with surveys being conducted to the effect, but I am far from convinced that it's a genuine effort to improve morale rather than a smoke screen. I know a lot of people unhappy with their bases who want to go somewhere with vacancies but their transfers are being refused. I hope it's not just a hollow masquerade. As for the number of 500 resignations, it would not surprise me if the number is even higher. I have also heard that the rostering manager has gone to NAS, though I have only heard that from one source.

hiha

30th Mar 2014, 09:28

Just read in the dutch newspaper that Air Berlin is not doing very well. Could the next lot of drivers come from them?

Aluminium shuffler

31st Mar 2014, 17:20

Sounds likely - rated and desperate, so cheap on training and cheaper than the RYR guys on pay, if the agencies play dirty. Then again, the agencies may want to keep the contracts attractive to all and the NAS union is fairly active...

BluSdUp

1st Apr 2014, 11:40

Just floated arround a bit lately, met some old aquaintans.
Here is what is happening:
Northeren base with 5 aircraft lost 27 pilot the last year to Norwegian and Sas and diverse.
Bergamo exodus to Norwegian or anyone to awoid jail.
Madrid base desimated due to Norwegian Mad base plus other Spanish bases.
400 cadets planed this year, emergency plan 650 cadets executed.
Main rostering mann left for Norwegian.
Linetrainers leaving,,,,,
New TREs makining partial passes left right and senter due to incompetensy,
FlyDubai wetlease due to lack of aircraft.
Looking forward to a very hot summer.
United We Stand

captplaystation

1st Apr 2014, 13:10

" emergency plan 650 cadets executed" ? :eek: ? :uhoh:

that is a bit serious, even by Ryanairs exalted standards

Can't see how that will help ;)

candler

1st Apr 2014, 22:51

I keep reading about the quality of training at Ryanair.What makes it so good.Sorry if it is obvious but I'm over on the other side of the pond and am not very familiar with what goes on at Ryanair only what I read here.We use AQP at my company and it seems to be much better than the old fashioned PC.

galwaypilot

1st Apr 2014, 23:08

Emergency plan of 650 cadets executed? What does that even mean?! That was the plan from over a year ago. 1300 cadets over the next three Is the plan...

doniedarko

2nd Apr 2014, 07:49

Ryanair's training department reputation comes mainly from other airlines. As Ryanair is effectively most European pilots first jet job. This year they will take 400 cadets ( not 650) and train them. These cadets have on average 160 hours in their logbook when the join Ryanair. Six months later the should be in the RHS as fully operational FO's. It's impressive what's more impressive is the training department is actually run by pilots with none of O'Learys oppressive henchmen at the helm ....yet. These pilots will on average last up to five years in RYR before waking up and realising that they have no future and moving on. The airlines who take these guys have invariably come back for more. Anyone who can put up with RYR's basing/annual leave/ taxation stays but it is increasingly a fewer number.
The problem this year is that a) the fleet is 7 hulls down after leased aircraft were returned b) Norweigan have decimated the FO's that were due to be upgraded to Captains this summer. The hulls have been replaced by wet/dry leasing. The captain shortage has been solved by allowing former employee's to return ( previously you were ' never' allowed back ) .....oh wait how many former inmates are filling the OCC courses ...ZERO. Yep two OCC courses planned but not one former employee has rushed to Ryanair's aid.
Ultimately RYR will just trim the schedule to suit the crewing resources available as the did in 2012 when the Olympics were on. But now RYR are trying to play catch up with other airlines but with a tarnished brand image . One wonders after two profit warnings how much longer the shareholders will tolerate "deckchairs on the Titanic "
Finally as of the 1st of March the rumour was approx 200 resignations in the system ...that covers a 5 month period so the 500 maybe a slight exaggeration

BluSdUp

2nd Apr 2014, 11:10

Sir, You are closer to Dublin then I, and You have some good points.
But , there were 200 in the system leaving as of 1march that represents 5 months? Brookfilders have 3 months notice Ryr the same Storm is just a few and shurley 3 months.
So out with your calculator,,,
This is the known, the unknowns are the on that is presently sick ( on a Norwegian, Sas etc Occ) waiting for his march paycheck.

Now, if all the hiering European airlines had any brains, they would all start a few extra occ cources, get a few Line trainers from Ryr and , voila!

The need is at least 650 cadets, to replace the senior f/o leaving, and upgrading.
That is a Head of Trainings dream, the thing with dreams are there are two kinds : Wet and Nightmares,,!?
But he can cope, he has as You said a few good men, and a close to perfect program for the circumstances. And you can always go of motion and terminate a student .

The lintrainer Boss , now he has a close to impossible task.
Good Sop, linetraining documents and strict progress criteria for cadets and Captain upgrade linetraining.
BUT, good old linetrainers retiering, many getting burnt out, new ones making basic errors, nitpicking on non-critical items etc.

But ,lets hope You are right , only 400 cadets and a handfull of occ direct Capts.
Then we will all fly to max this summer.
Anyway think of Yourself fellow Aviators hire a RYR pilot, You will have a frind for life and industy conditions may stop deteriorating.?

LNIDA

2nd Apr 2014, 12:02

NAS have seen more resignations than they would ideally like, the reasons are very varied and not the same as Ryanair, but churn is churn whatever the reason!!

SAS have taken a quite a few, obviously getting back to live in Scandinavia is a priority for many, but also issues such as temp contract, agency employment, lack of pension all have an impact, NAS unlike FR doesn't have the training capacity to support the level of resignations and expansion at the same time.

RAT 5

2nd Apr 2014, 15:52

NAS unlike FR doesn't have the training capacity to support the level of resignations and expansion at the same time.

I wonder. If you do some maths and calculate the number of sim hours required for TQ courses, upgrades, OPC/LPC's, RST's etc. does RYR have enough sim space for their program? That is now. What about the increase necessary as the fleet expands? It is a proven ratio. Then there is the ratio of SFI/TRI/LTC/TRE's per a/c. That is also a proven historical ratio. Have they and will they have enough? You can't be in the sim and the cockpit at the same time. The need for safety F/O's during LT is another parameter in the mix. I suspect sim time might be a limiting one.

Regarding the number leaving: an annual loss of 10% is quite common. This is made up of medical, retirement, quitting. I suspect in large stable airlines retirement is the largest part. It is predictable and manageable. It's not a surprise. I suspect the leavers are the majority at RYR and this is a surprise and unpredictable. The flexibility of the contractor scheme allows you to be over crewed at no cost. However, the resultant loss of expected earnings increases the rush to leave for those F/O's who have large debts and lower income. You can't have it both ways. It is a vicious circle towards a downward spiral that will bite you in the backside.

Vulka

2nd Apr 2014, 19:03

1300 cadets?

First step of O'Leary flightdeck philosophy...B737-800 single pilot

Until...?

polax52

2nd Apr 2014, 20:36

[Edited by admin]

Hangar6

2nd Apr 2014, 20:50

For the record IAA are not state funded at all, they make good annual profits from all the Airlines, and yes we are cash strapped for sure, but come on fiscal advice from California ? Jaysus Mary and Joeseph you are kidding ?IAA are competent and the results are evident in a very sound aviation environment here.

polax52

2nd Apr 2014, 22:23

[Edited by admin]

172_driver

2nd Apr 2014, 22:35

[Edited by admin]

BluSdUp

2nd Apr 2014, 23:01

Fellow Aviators.
April has started, fools day has passed.

Somone claimed the Irish Aviaton Authority are self sponsored and Competent.
This is news, indeed.

Candler:
Do not try to understand EU standards from a logical standpoint. If You do understand it most likely FAA will suspend Your medical! But do take note , the canser spreads quick. Ps I am an old faa instructor what does AQP vs PC entail?

Somone in the know mentioned that all is well , 1300 new the next 3 years so a few more then 400 this year is ok!
Son its all about timing. Evenly distributed ,OK.

Here is my new bet.: A total of 850 pilot shall leave Ryr this calander year !
Anyone.
Today another jumpseating Scandinavian fo told me he is gone for SAS, lovely!

Lastley.
Wondering about Norwegians capasity for training.
They may be in for a nasty surprice , if they do not start treating pilots good.
As I can see it they have no clue, just cherry picking RYR.

polax52

2nd Apr 2014, 23:25

Just look at how the world media has pulled Malaysia to pieces over something that is not their fault. Imagine what they would do to Ireland.

candler

3rd Apr 2014, 02:46

Blusdup
AQP or Advanced qualification program with my company is a four day event.The first two days are ground school and days three and four are in the sim.day three is MV or manouvers validation basically stalls steep turns v1 cuts single engine app etc.It is training and is basically what the old PC was.day four is the checking portion of the whole event it is scenario based training.you are given a flight for example from Memphis to la guardia with a set number of events that will happen ie re route last minute sid or runway change then something happens in flight before a crossing restriction etc.much more relaxed.It is very strictly scripted so they cannot mess with you.on the whole it is a much more enjoyable experience

speed_alive_rotate

3rd Apr 2014, 08:16

This thread is going absolutely off topic, and to be honest I find the free use of the phrase "cash strapped Irish Government" insulting. This is totally off topic!!!! This is an aviation based site, lets keep it that way Polax 52!!

polax52

3rd Apr 2014, 10:24

Speed alive rotate.... I don't think it is off topic at all. In my opinion, and this site is mostly about opinions, the fact that the Irish government is cash strapped effects the way Ryanair is regulated.

In the US, due to safety issues, we have gone to 1500 hours as a minimum experience to occupy either seat. This change had to be made as Airlines abused the privelage of being able to select a number of less experienced guys. It is clear that the European low cost Airlines and especially Ryanair are also abusing the system. Now that they may be short of Pilots it appears they may be willing to allow large numbers of absolutely inexperienced guys, I'm my view, to a point where safety is not assured.

The regulator and the Irish government will not stop them due to economic reasons.

speed_alive_rotate

3rd Apr 2014, 10:42

As stated by Hanger 6, the IAA is completely separate from the Government and is totally self funded. And to be honest the IAA is one of the more professional Aviation Authorities in Europe. Plenty of information on their website if you require it!!!!

I think you should look more at the ridiculously poor pay you American regional guys are on for your flaws in safety. A huge amount of your regional guys must undertake a second job hence are exhausted whilst in the cockpit. I believe tiredness in this instance has more to do with lack of safety rather than less hours.

polax52

3rd Apr 2014, 11:03

Could not agree with you more about the American regionals. I presume you would like to see Ryanair with the same poorly paid Pilot situation and add that to an extremely low experience factor.

If you are saying that the irish economic situation has no effect on the way Ryanair is regulated then I think you are kidding yourself. No true regulator would allow 1300 zero hour Pilots over a 3 year period in to an Airline the size of Ryanair, simply because it is lunacy.

pilotho

3rd Apr 2014, 12:23

Let's say there were 2 guys; one with 1000 hours air taxi and the other straight out of flight school. I would give them both an assessment and I think I honestly wouldn't know which guy would have more experience.

I think ability counts much more than hours. I have seen some guys who has "thousands of hours" and yet can't fly a SE ILS within limits.

Rather than judge on the amount of hours they have, just put them in the sim and see what happens.

polax52

3rd Apr 2014, 12:42

OK, Pilotho.... When you fly into a headwind what speed do you fly at in order to maintain best fuel consumption as compared to still air? Why?

JS....The mafia represents 7% of the Italian economy do you believe that it has no influence over the Italian government?

pilotho

3rd Apr 2014, 13:08

Polax, I honestly can't remember the answer to that from the groundschool days but rest assure I'm not being arrogant in saying I would fly the ECON speed with the relevant cost index. If I did have a dual FMC failure then I would fly whatever speed the aircraft was doing before the FMC packed up then declare unable RNAV and head out of RVSM.

However, if I were to recruit guys then I would be assessing whether the guys have good airmanship and CRM when dealing with a situation on board. Ultimately the guy who has 1000 PIC hours may be more suited to flying single pilot rather than a multi pilot environment. At the end of the day, as I said, put them in the sim and see what happens.

polax52

3rd Apr 2014, 14:07

If you work out the why to that question then you will understand why in all probability the 1000 hour guy is better than the 250 hour guy.

Incidentally, pilotho, are you a cadet who went to CTC?

737 Jockey

3rd Apr 2014, 14:22

Guys/Girls,

Just a polite 'heads up' here...

When it comes to voicing your (perfectly legitimate) opinions on here regarding Ryanair, and their relationship with the IAA, please always start your sentence with "in my own humble opinion" or words to that effect... I know several good people who have been threatened with legal action by Ryanair for libel/slander, and forced to make a significant charitable donation as (completely unjustified) recompense, so as to avoid said court case.

It's a litigious world out there... You have been warned!

:ok:

pilotho

3rd Apr 2014, 14:23

I'll look it up. No, I didn't go to CTC

calypso

3rd Apr 2014, 16:27

And to be honest the IAA is one of the more professional Aviation Authorities in Europe

:p:p:p

That was funny!

I think ability counts much more than hours. I have seen some guys who has "thousands of hours" and yet can't fly a SE ILS within limits.

The problem of course is that both ability AND experience are required. No one is advocating hiring people with experience but no ability.

The guy that has "thousands of hours" and cannot fly an ILS must have been even worse when he had 200 hours.

The guy that is "brilliant" with 200 hours will be even better when he can back it all up with some experience.

Regardless of ability flying teaches most of us some important lessons early on. It is best that those lessons are not learnt with 200 souls on board and that is the FAA interpretation.

Anyone saying otherwise is trying to sell you something, either their own inexperience or their training/hiring (cost cutting) system.

JW411

3rd Apr 2014, 16:37

"200 souls on board"

I haven't heard that expression for a long time now. I even feel quite nostalgic.

The world went over to POB (Persons on Board) from SOB (Souls on Board) donkey's years ago. I believe it had a lot to do with the fact that a certain influential religious grouping in the world objected to the use of the word "souls" since they didn't have any (or something like that).

No doubt someone will illuminate us in due course.

Zyox

3rd Apr 2014, 16:40

Thought it was down to the heated unsolved debate on seeing eye dogs, and indeed all dogs, either having souls or not.
After all the deadlock on the issue they switched to Persons on Board.

Mikehotel152

3rd Apr 2014, 19:12

The guy that has "thousands of hours" and cannot fly an ILS must have been even worse when he had 200 hours.

No necessarily. He might have been putting in more effort in those days but is becoming complacent as his hours tick over or his company SOPs discourage hand flying to the extent that his handling skills have simply decayed over time. :*

pilotho

3rd Apr 2014, 20:50

his company SOPs discourage hand flying to the extent that his handling skills have simply decayed over time.

Then again, it's not like you could practise flying with rudder input during normal line flight.

Pablo_Diablo

3rd Apr 2014, 22:22

It is not only about being able to fly a raw data ils flawlessly but also to be realiable and competent if something more serious happens. No real shortcuts getting there but instead involves a long term process on the job including transfer of knowledge flowing from experience to the ones not having any experience. In cases where you have one third of all pilots under 1000 hours it cannot be a good thing irregardless of how great the guys fly in the simulator.

doniedarko

4th Apr 2014, 00:50

1300 pilots or 2000 pilots it matters not. Ryanair are operating within current EASA regulations. They are legal they are compliant so nothing for the regulator to act on ! ..move along nothing to see here.

172_driver

4th Apr 2014, 01:06

There are many overlapping regulations you can claim, e.g. one of the EU OPS requirements for issuing an AOC is:

An AOC will be varied, suspended or revoked if the Authority is no longer satisfied that the operator can maintain safe operations.

Not that they would, just sayin'.. it may bear relevence to the experience level.

polax52

4th Apr 2014, 06:56

[Edited by admin]

First.officer

4th Apr 2014, 08:17

This thread seems to have slightly "jinked" in course.....

We have to be fair and say that for all the RYR faults, the company does train it's pilots very, very well, and although people are saying there are a number of incidents, I genuinely don't believe that this is in excess of the industry norm. - it maybe gets highlighted in the press more than another airline would be presented by comparison, simply because of the way RYR normally court publicity in any shape or form within the same media. The problem with RYR isn't with the skill-set of it's pilot workforce, the problem lies with how RYR treats it's pilot (and cabin for that matter) workforce....it teats them with very little, to nil, respect and is always seeking to find new ways to "conquer and divide", in order to maintain terms and conditions at a level it deems suitable to allow continued profits at a pre-determined level.

Getting back on thread, I've heard the rumours that this summer will be a very interesting one for RYR, and on face value, it does seem that many more pilots this year are leaving for pastures of a differing shade of green, and I do know that there are FlyDubai aircraft coming this summer, whether that is wet lease or not, couldn't say....

FreudianSlippers

4th Apr 2014, 09:02

This thread is absolutely ridiculous. I understand the moderators are busy with the MH370 thread, but I cannot understand how polax52 is allowed to continue to post nonsense about the IAA and its relationship with Ryanair.

There is evidence to absolutely rebut the statements about the IAA made by polax52.

ICAO Audited (http://www.iaa.ie/media/Ireland_CSA_Final_Audit_Report1.pdf) the IAA and found them the 3rd best regulator in Europe (behind France and the UK) and ahead of the USA in the overall scoring. A handy powerpoint is here (http://www.iaa.ie/media/ICAOSafetyAuditIRELAND-SummaryofBackgroundandResultsfinal1.pdf).

As for the "Irish economic situation" effecting regulation, this is pure cac. The Irish economy is strongly recovering firstly. Secondly:
The IAA is a commercial State-sponsored body and derives the vast majority of its revenue from international sources, mainly through ATC user charges.

The IAA receives no Government funding.

The chart illustrates the breakdown in Irish Aviation Authority revenue during 2012
https://www.iaa.ie/media/Revenue2012721.jpg

polax52 is the worst type of poster. Lazy and unable to the a modicum of research to back up their (incorrect) point. Then relies on ad hominem and composition fallacies when pilotho raises a point to which they do not have a sound rebuttal. :=

Ireland needs its EU membership revoked along with its freedom to operate in the deregulated skies? Jog on mate. :rolleyes:

As a long-time lurker, this thread is the one the finally made me join up. I wasn't too sure about 100% of the cases that were brought against PPRuNe posters by Ryanair, but from looking at polax52's posts, I now understand the need to put manners on some. Maybe polax52 should be more careful, especially when it seems that Ryanair aren't finished taking people to task for their comments online (http://www.independent.ie/business/world/ryanair-takes-us-action-to-track-down-owner-of-website-it-successfully-sued-30150420.html).

speed_alive_rotate

4th Apr 2014, 09:36

Polax52 can I ask what experience of flying in Europe do you have?? And what is your experience in general??? Not only are your Ryanair comments bordering on slander but also your constant Irish/ Irish Government slander I am finding extremely inappropriate and insulting!!

FreudianSlippers

4th Apr 2014, 10:10

Does Germany have shell companies that employ contractors in Ireland but who pay tax in Germany?

Funny enough, there is scope for it. I decided to do a bit of research and it is quite clear (see the Fiscal Code of Germany (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_ao/englisch_ao.html)) that non-resident individuals will be taxed on German-source income; for example salary and dividends from a limited company.

Then I thought about it a bit more. Aren't these "shell companies" you mention incorporated in the UK, thus making your entire point about Ireland moot?:ugh:

speed_alive_rotate

4th Apr 2014, 10:44

Maybe Calypso you should also take a look at the chart and facts posted by FreudianSlippers as you found my comments on the IAA so funny.
Its clear here the guys who have gone to the trouble of finding the relevant information and facts and then the guys who are talking out their ****!!!

polax52

4th Apr 2014, 12:03

Let me just add that the fact I have to fear Libel action by Ryanair, as an American citizen, for expressing an opinion, an accurate opinion at that, I find shocking.

The addition of 1300 zero hour Pilots over 3 year is a serious safety hazard, in my view. Whatever the propaganda might say. As previously stated I have flown with cadets I do know that a minority are safe and indeed very good. The majority vary from poor to unsafe, at 250 to 1500 hours. Above 1500 hours the vast majority are totally safe.

FreudianSlippers

4th Apr 2014, 12:45

US laws don't rule the world. You have gone online to publish your "opinions" to the world at large without the realisation that simply saying it is opinion is not a defence to a case in defamation in Ireland or the UK. It needs to have a factual backing.

The fact that Ryanair was granted orders by US courts disclosing the identities of PPRuNe posters not all to long ago tells me you're taking unnecessary risks to malign a company that has little to do with you all the way in Asia.

Let me tell you, that even in the US, there are exceptions to free speech - and one of those is libel. Where you, due to your agenda, post false information in light of clear evidence to the contrary, you can be sued successfully. There is no freedom to malign another individual or company with falsities.

Courts are not so stupid to see through the "opinion" defence when it's invalid. You may have opinions about crew experience, but you cannot say that a company is acting unlawfully when they are not and that there are improper ties between the airline and the regulator when there are not.

Either you have an agenda or you're trolling, but either way it's annoying.

polax52

4th Apr 2014, 13:42

Freudianslippers... I am expressing opinion on the basis of experience.

How did I malign Ryanair with my recent posts?

It is my view that 1300 zero hour Pilots into a company the size of Ryanair is unsafe.

Did I say that Ryanair acted unlawfully?

I thought I said that they operate between the lines of European Law, within that gray area, but outside the spirit of the law.

I am not trolling and I don't have any agenda other than to see safe operation of aircraft.

If it's annoying then log off and don't come back.

In my opinion RyR has the economic strength to manipulate the Irish regulator, and PROBABLY uses it.

yeoman

4th Apr 2014, 13:57

Polax

Re Britannia in Girona.

You are talking absolute crap. FACT.

That is all.

polax52

4th Apr 2014, 14:07

JS... your allegation that I made an allegation about financial inducements is totally false. Anyway, wait and see. Ryanair lawyers are looking very closely at my posts and if they find anything which they can make a case on then you will know it.

As you know, because you have read my previous posts, my concerns regard safety and the improvement of this career.

Yeoman.... In what sense is what I said ....(expletive)?

I will delete that post though, I was wrong to reopen old wounds...

Aluminium shuffler

4th Apr 2014, 14:25

I have disagreed with much of Polax's comments, but when it comes to the IAA, I too lack confidence in them. They're very efficient with paperwork, when they chose to be (5 months to convert a licence isn't efficient, though), but regulation of the industry needs to be more than rubber stamping paper.

However, if they are such stringent regulators of safety, one has to wonder why so many other EU airlines have swapped from their domestic register to the IAA - Norwegian and several Italian companies spring to mind, and I think I saw some Baltic operators with Irish registrations too. The airlines won't have done that to face increased oversight and regulation...

And while the IAA may be self-funding, it is part regulated by the DOT, which is an Irish government authority. Whether is be by reducing the IAA burden on the DOT or paying funds directly tot he Irish government, the Irish government is benefiting financially from other nations' airlines transferring registries, and it all smacks of a flag of convenience. Shipping companies did not switch to Panamanian flags for safety benefits.

yeoman

4th Apr 2014, 14:37

Polax

It flies in the face of the official accident report for starters. It also flies in the face of my personal knowledge of the gentleman concerned.

It's not an old wound, it is an accident that lessons can be learnt from providing we draw the correct conclusions rather than seeking to introduce factors to make a point. IMVHO, your post did the latter.

Seeing as the incident has been raised, I think it helps make a different point that i would agree with you on and that is that some national authorities could also benefit from the learning experience offered by an accident rather than rushing to defend their own undefendable position.

Back to the thread in question, virtually all our recruits in the last two years have come from RYR and all have been top blokes both professionally and as people. They all also seem to think all their Christmases have come early!

We have also taken a few from CTC and most have been top blokes and blokesses too. I had the pleasure of being involved in a lot of the training for both groups and one from CTC in particular blew my mind. I flew a long and difficult day with them and I had to close my mouth with my hand at the end of it, an exceptional performance for any young FO, never mind a 200 hour one just three weeks after Final Line Check.

polax52

4th Apr 2014, 14:46

Yeoman... I agree that I should not have used that accident to make my point. I apologize to all concerned.

yeoman

4th Apr 2014, 14:54

Thanks.

Now added another line as apparently I can't just say thanks, it's too short a message? So in true Training Dept style, I'll now use lots of words to say one.;)

polax52

4th Apr 2014, 14:59

As for the 250 hour guy as I have said previously, I have significant recent experience with cadets in Asia. Some are very good, most need more time. Time which should not be obtained with paying passengers on board.

The guys coming out of Ryanair have that experience. Most of those going in are a gamble. I have beaten this to death. Anyway 1300 zero jet hour cadets is unsafe. I say this not because of any statistics which I have to hand but because of experience.

When people talk about good guys, I know what you mean, but it does not necessarily mean safe Pilot when a situation arises which requires experience.

yeoman

4th Apr 2014, 15:38

Slippers

How can an "opinion" be refutable?

May I ask your credentials? Your location and robust defence of the IAA and / or the business practices of RYR instil in me a feeling of the lady dost protest too much.

As an aside, if the IAA is such a strong defender of standards in aviation, why is the Republic fast becoming the aviation equivalent of shipping's Panama when it comes to registration? Genuine question if we consider the case of multinational pilots operating from a Thai base on EI registered aircraft for a company based in Norway for example? Exactly how big are Norwegian's offices in Dublin and how many are employed there?

If you cut through the routine Pprune mud slinging, I'm genuinely interested as to how the above arrangement can be effectively regulated.

FreudianSlippers

4th Apr 2014, 15:51

I'm saying it isn't in fact opinion. It's refutable facts under the guise of opinion. Genuine opinion is just that, if you're wrong and there is evidence to show you are wrong, then it's ignorance I suppose.

I have no problem showing my bona fides - I'm SLF, keen interest in aviation. I'm from Dublin but work from London for a rather large technology company. I'm a lawyer in that company and I do Media litigation for them - I came here when I heard all the news about subpoenas, etc. back in 2012 and have been lurking ever since!

I don't frequently fly Ryanair; I prefer to fly with EI or CityJet.

My defence isn't meant to be robust. I'm not even sure it's meant to be a defence of the IAA. When one sees allegations of improper regulation or relationship between an airline and the regulator for example, one does bit of research. Like seriously ONE Google search and I found the ICAO document. Now, if we're going to suggest that ICAO is also in on the game, that's one conspiracy too far for me.

Choice of registration in Ireland is IMHO not due to lax oversight, but more to do with tax implications.

polax52

4th Apr 2014, 15:55

Most of those points you have stated about my views, I stand by. I disagree with you that there is no such thing as the spirit of the law. They chose which law they are going to comply with whether it be Irish law or EU, and they find gray areas in between. They have been found guilty of breaking the law in France, as a result they used their financial clout to take punitive measures against France.

They threatened to move bases out of the UK if Pilots voted for unionization. Something which a legal right in the UK.

They have throughout their history openly used threat and manipulation to strengthen their bargaining positions, they take pride in it.

I am lost when you talk of unsupported claims, most Claims I have made are well known.

This site is a lot about opinion. It is my opinion that any regulator which allows an Airline under it's supervision to employ 1300 Pilots, who have absolutely zero experience(flight school only),is incompetent. I truly find it difficult to see any reasonable unbiased argument against that statement.

Tourist

4th Apr 2014, 15:56

freud

I actually do have no "skin in the game", and if you are not a Ryanair shill then I'm a fat welsh lesbian.

yeoman

4th Apr 2014, 15:57

Thank you. That makes your posts or more specifically your viewpoint here more easy to understand.

The question remains for any others to answer, given that the attraction of EI registration may well be purely financial, can the arrangement I alluded to above be effectively regulated? Open question.

As for ICAO, it is an executive function of the UN. No conspiracy is needed, the facts are there for all to see and have been since about 1950. The idea behind the UN is great on paper.....

Pablo_Diablo

4th Apr 2014, 16:54

If people need to prove everything there are different limits to that as well and no one would be able to say anything interesting as to prove things getting involved in advanced science which i wouldn´t be able to do and more or less turn this into something completely different. It is a rumour network after all much more fun that way.

Since Enron´s AAA rating earlier from one of the credit rating agencies i tend take audits and reports with a pinch of salt since you need to look for specific things in order to find them.

Never thought i would be quoting Donald Rumsfeld also but here it goes, he put it brilliantly eariler.

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

For example in an audit as you cannot look for everything. All audits by the way.

The question remains for any others to answer, given that the attraction of EI registration may well be purely financial, can the arrangement I alluded to above be effectively regulated? Open question. I am going to bite on that as there is surely some difficulties for the regulators that rely on income from their customers and the same time need to regulate them. Especially countries with fewer airlines based there as they are naturally more dependent on each airline for parts of their revenue.

I looked through the annual report of the IAA also and what struck me was the focus on economics in contrast to the UK CAA report. The legal framework in Ireland for corporations considering Google, Apple and many more all gather there as well as Norwegian lately must be good. A corporate minded regulator perhaps and favorable tax and social charges make it worthwhile relocating there.

RAT 5

4th Apr 2014, 20:11

I looked through the annual report of the IAA also and what struck me was the focus on economics

Might explain why the cost of an IAA ATPL is 100's% more than UK or NL. The same goes for TRI & TRE revalidation's. They charge extortionate amounts. When challenged on this the IAA said they were tasked with being financially self sustaining, and that it was normal for airlines to pay these costs not the individual pilot. Extraordinary!

BluSdUp

5th Apr 2014, 14:31

Howdy !
Free speach is aperantly a hard to come by.
I am not shure were You have Your knowledge from, but it I the truth P52.

Some geniouses have the last 4 days aparently taken offence, most probably since thay know You are right.
Lately the irish tiger has gotten more in hot water as reshufeling in managment has resulted in severe stress to the orgenisation with regards to day to day rostering.
This is not the end, not even the beiginng to the end. But it is the end off the beginning.
Soldier on, remember Norwegian LongHaule is registered in the socalled competent IAA,,, aiming to unfairly compete against EU and US long haul.
The battel is now.

JW411

5th Apr 2014, 16:45

Have you ever considered learning to speak and write English?

BluSdUp

5th Apr 2014, 18:27

Whatever do you mean Dear old boy.

You represent the incompetent brit attitude we all now suffer under.
Brits are the main reason Jar ops , Jaa and Eu ops do not work.
Not because i do not bother to chec my spelling on a roumor network.

brakedwell

5th Apr 2014, 18:46

Do they speak Ingerlish in 60N?

LNIDA

5th Apr 2014, 19:01

Norwegian (long haul) sought an AOC with Ireland for a number of reasons and light touch regulation wasn't on the list far from it.

Firstly Norway does have an open skies arrangement with Europe, but whilst that allows it to fly Norway to anywhere in Europe it does not have the same rights to fly from Europe to the US, hence the need for a European AOC, Norwegian could have used any other European country to obtain this and did indeed look at UK as well as Ireland.

Ireland has a number of advantages over other European countries in this regard, they speak english and they also use the Euro a currency in which an increasing amount of Norwegian's income is now billed, they also have low rates of corporate tax and have a long established history in aircraft finance and leasing.

The UK lost out for a number of reasons, not least is the business risk that it might leave the EU at some stage, higher taxes and currency fluctuations.

Norwegian labour laws are an heavy burden on its employers and the need to compete across Europe with Ryanair, easyJet, AirBerlin and the legacy airlines is very difficult with Norwegian social taxation.

It's worth remember that only the long haul operation of Norwegian is on an Irish AOC but of course many of Norwegians pilots work for contracting companies, but these are well known agencies and a very different set up from the one used by Ryanair often referred to as service companies.

Norwegian have of course caused a storm in labour markets in the USA and Europe, but it is difficult to see how the DOT in the US can block their route licence application to fly from Europe to the US if they are on an European AOC and thus fall within open skies agreement. I don't see an Irish AOC as a flag of convenience and there is no serious suggestion that safety is at risk. There is of course a lot of vested interest in keeping Norwegian out of these markets.

FreudianSlippers

6th Apr 2014, 13:58

I actually do have no "skin in the game", and if you are not a Ryanair shill then I'm a fat welsh lesbian.
I'm not really sure what to say to that. I'm certainly not going to give a toss what you think. At the end of the day, I saw statements being posted here which I knew to be untrue and backed them up with evidence.

I'm not really sure what your weight and sexual orientation has to do with this though?

16024

6th Apr 2014, 16:24

I'm certainly not going to give a toss what you think.

Deal with your denial issues before demanding integrity and veracity from others.

Journey Man

6th Apr 2014, 19:42

We have to be fair and say that for all the RYR faults, the company does train it's pilots very, very well, and although people are saying there are a number of incidents, I genuinely don't believe that this is in excess of the industry norm.

By what measurement, or yardstick, are Ryanair pilots trained "very, very well" above and beyond an industry standard? Or does it just sound better than saying FR crews meet the minimum requirements, along with every other carrier. That's it. This thorw-away line keeps getting propagated as some sort of justification in Ryanair's defence, so please quantify it rather than offer the usual anecdotal enthusiasm for such a statement.

clunk1001

6th Apr 2014, 19:55

Journey man, I'll have a go at quantifying that for you with a simple analogy ...
My spaniel is trained well, we'll above normal training for a domestic animal, he comes when I call, and sits when I tell him, above all he knows who his master is and will obey every command without hesitation, thought or question. No matter how badly he is treated, he'll still turn up for work.....er I mean he'd still wag his tail.

Well trained :p

First.officer

6th Apr 2014, 20:13

Okay, that's a fair comment Journey Man,

I will admit that a certain amount of the statement is my own personal belief/feeling, but also based on knowing several of the trainers, many current RYR pilots, and working alongside ex-Ryanair employees. Their (RYR) operation on a normal daily basis will see crews exposed more readily to more NPA's than many other airlines (experience), the SOP structure is very rigid, the knowledge that is demonstrated seems to my eyes and ears, to be sound (or I'm plain thick and lack understanding - which is possible), and technical knowledge is taught to a very high standard, with excellent material from what I've seen.
The above is only said as my experience leads me to believe, and I would suggest that the above is, as mentioned, equally true at many other carriers - but this thread is in relation to RYR. Now, I'm not RYR's biggest fan I will say, and purely I base this on comments I've made previously.

Journey Man

6th Apr 2014, 20:31

A good response, but it's all very much subjective and I'd question whether you have experience of other carrier's training programs from which to make such a comparison?

With the NPA argument it could also be claimed that bizjet operators are therefore inherently safer due to their exposure to smaller airports.

To add balance, it cannot be subjectively argued that Ryanair standards are lower than the rest of the market either. I've no doubt the folks up the front are well trained; but likewise I'm sure your colleagues in other airlines are too.

First.officer

6th Apr 2014, 21:10

Very true, I am basing my posts on operating at 4 different operators, with 3 being biz-jet, and the fourth being airline (just to give things a little background, and from where my perspective is based upon).

You could reasonably argue the point with biz-jet operators, agreed - although I do know that we are straying into another topic, that has numerous different points that could be raised ;-)

Pablo_Diablo

6th Apr 2014, 21:15

Didn´t know the difference was that much between IAA and others RAT5. Good to be self sustaining not to bother taxpayers but the same time the word does have a rather wide meaning also.

Maybe the plan, actually i am pretty sure it is, is to to sell Ireland as a aviation hub and attract airlines and customers. That´s all fair enough in my book but it depends on how it is done also. Costs for pilots should be competitive thinking about all revenue pilots actually provide to the regulators especially in cases where they have to fund it themselves. Ryanair Airlines requires it contractually for whatever reason, earlier for sure, possibly still does, leaving you with no choice but to lap it up like a pussycat.:p

But where it get´s even more interesting is when some say the regulation is not what it could be, whereas others think it more or less deserves a spontaneous round of applause and the wave when mentioned. From my experience i am with the former not only due to the emergency exit issue earlier which make you wonder if sometimes innovation take the upper hand over safety at times. Flying around with the emergency exits unmanned because no one has paid some more money for extra legroom in combination with something happening on takeoff run requiring an evacuation make it seem that way then at least.

Bit of a chat leading to different thoughts exposed to each other and some clashes, nothing to get to tense about or playing the lawyer card for really.

I will defend this opinion also. But only if i can afford it. If i can´t - i´ll issue a statement in time to the contrary. :eek:

Journey Man

6th Apr 2014, 22:15

You could reasonably argue the point with biz-jet operators, agreed - although I do know that we are straying into another topic, that has numerous different points that could be raised ;-)

For the record, it's not the argument I'm making; merely illustrating how the "NPA = better trained" argument can be extrapolated.

go around flaps15

6th Apr 2014, 22:39

Any airline that trains 300-400 cadets per year and has an excellent safety record like Ryanair must have a very good training department IMHO.

Easyjet are in that same bracket. The training is of a very high standard there as well IMHO.

Both airlines bashing out 4 sector shifts day in day out with low experience levels in the right hand seat and sometimes in the left and in the majority without incident, doesn't happen by luck that's for certain.

polax52

7th Apr 2014, 10:26

GA flap 15.....

In my view, you do not understand what is happening. I realize that there is this view disseminated by Ryanair that their training is good and that they have a good safety record. I don't dispute that they have, fortunately, not had any significant accident.

The problem is the direction of movement of standards. Even easyjet appear to recognise that they need to integrate more experienced Pilots with less experienced. It seems that Ryanair and the IAA are happy to move into new territory where the majority of Pilots are very inexperienced. In addition to that the standards are not what they were 10+ years ago, when there was a significant failure rate during the initial Instrument rating, and flight test phase of commercial pilot training. That is no longer the case we have moved towards he American system from this point of view where it is just "pay and pass".

Any reasonable person would understand that as you become more experienced and have had a chance to recognize your fallibilities you become a safer pilot. It is therefore clear that pushing the boundaries of less experience is a very dangerous move.

If you add to that the fact that Ryanair use "dirty tricks" to prevent the Pilots from becoming unionized, something that the majority want to do and is a legal right in all countries where Ryanair have Pilots based, you further reduce safety. Unions are involved in much more than negotiating pay, they are involved in all sorts of safety matters from the effects of volcanic ash on engines to solar radiation and it's effect on crew, many many other things in between.

I don't believe that as a Pilot you should be defending this kind of operation, especially when it comes to an Airline which is very profitable and that consists of what will maybe be 400+ aircraft in a few years.

speed_alive_rotate

7th Apr 2014, 11:26

This thread has gone so far off topic it is ridiculous! Has anyone anymore information regarding the amount of pilots coming and going from Ryanair to try bring this once extremely informative and interesting thread back on topic!! Thanks Guys

MichaelOLearyGenius

7th Apr 2014, 12:55

Ryanair probably does have a good training department purely because it doesn't cost the company money. The poor sods "employed" by FR are paying for the pleasure of training there. If it actually cost FR money to train pilots and they were not making a profit on it I think you'd see a bit more scrimping and saving in the training department.

Al Murdoch

7th Apr 2014, 14:19

Journey Man, I can tell you that I have experience of both a very big airline's training department and Ryanair's. Ryanair's is VASTLY superior in almost every regard.

LNIDA

7th Apr 2014, 14:46

In part because it cost FR nothing to train it's pilots there is no commercial pressure in training terms, money talks, Ryanair are one of very few people taking 200 hour people and their parents €30k and they can and do pick and choose ( Ryanair that is!!!)

The majority are very clued up and see Ryanair for what it is warts and all, their objective is get well trained, get a 1000+ hours and get out! it's really that simple and to date that has suited Ryanair as well, their SOP discipline is very very strict and needs to be to stay safe.

I regularly fly with ex FR pilots and yes there are stories, but I can't substantiate them so I won't repeat them, are they better than the average, the answer is yes and I can say that objectively, the lemons don't make the cut at FR it's that simple/brutal know pilots in Jet2, Mon, Norwegian,BA,easyJet, Eastern who have needed a lot of extra training to scrape through line checks.

The one failing that some ex FR pilots have is they believe in their own propaganda , they think they are the dogs :mad:,a lot of that is not surprising when you get command at 24 years old

Every airline has it's there by the grace of God cock ups and FR is no different, but given the sectors flown and the type of approaches involved I'd wager it's less, just have a look at Aviation herald website to see the daily number of cock ups.

As for GA pilots being better because they make more NPA your having a laugh, they are not doing it in a 60t airliner down to minima with approach speeds of 145knts in foul weather

I'm not singing FR as a company, I think they are crap to fly with and work for, but their safety is top notch, it's a credit to both the pilots and the training department :D

Journey Man

7th Apr 2014, 16:54

LNIDA,

I guess someone was going to get the wrong end of the stick, and that person is you.

As for GA pilots being better because they make more NPA your having a laugh, they are not doing it in a 60t airliner down to minima with approach speeds of 145knts in foul weather

If you can find where that's said, I'll post you £10. Finally, quantify does not mean what you obviously think it does. :D

RAT 5

7th Apr 2014, 20:49

To try and put some perspective on the matter I'll look back over a long career with almost 10 airlines of various hue and creed in a variety of countries. Once upon a time the 'airlines' that flew big noisy jets (outside BA in the 70's) wanted experienced pilots to join their ranks. They were anticipating expansion and wanted suitable new blood. Also the very basic type of a/c we flew, in a very basic ATC environment (other than ATH Greece had little or no radar, and its islands had an ILS/NDB/DME if you were lucky, but not on all runways) required good solid airmanship from the 2 man crew. This was not a suitable environment to train cadets, you needed to have a good aviation grounding beforehand. The training was, 1st, how to fly the a/c; 2nd how to do it according to simple SOP's that were based on FCTM; 3rd how to operate the a/c in a variety of roles and environments. After 7 years or so, and >5000hrs with good prof checks on record you could expect assessment for any command vacancies.
Nowadays the a/c are sophisticated, reliable, include a wealth of navigation information and have excellent autopilots with a wealth of capabilities. Likewise ATC has improved where non-radar is the exception, as is an NPA. There are ILS's all over the place with helpful radar to hold your hand to find them. If not then the FMC will do it for you and tell if you are hot & high or low & slow, and if you are anywhere near where you are supposed to be. As a result the daily routes can be flown by guys who have read and digested the FCTM & SOP manuals and can be trusted to follow them to the letter. This is on a good ideal day, which 95% of them are. A SID is a SID and a STAR is a STAR and an ILS is an ILS and they are joined together by airways loaded into an FMC. Even NPA's can be flown in VNAVPTH or RNAV GNSS just like an ILS. No sweat. The 'flying' part has been reduced to the first 400-1000' after liftoff and the last 500-200' to touchdown. Just follow the SOP's and you can start at A, operate the a/c as per flight plan and arrive in the slot at B. 95% of the time. The odd non-radar airfield, or circle to land is an adventurous day out, and they even have SOP's for those to fly them on the autopliot. Thus a short-haul jet (perhaps even more so the big jets) have become an airborne playstation. Read the instructions and a cadet pilot with CPL can do it. This was not the case in 70's & 80's, but it is now: or so it would seem.
Amazingly some still seem to get it wrong, but that's not the fault of the cadet system. There will be a captain (experienced) who either gets it wrong or allows it to develop into wrong. The cadet can always be over-ruled. The difference I saw amongst cadets was attitude. Some were very sharp and remained so, some were a little blunt and never really cut it. Some were average, competent, but became bored and complacent. They then became blunt but did not realise it. They you had to watch out for.
To summarise: the handling skills are less important now than they used to be with more emphasis on operating skills and following SOP's to save your soul. (Not that I wish it to be so) but still the vital ingredient is attitude. That is where I've seen the selection process at entry level become suspect. The idea that good training = an extensive SOP rule book and a good pilot = one who follows it to the letter can be a workable model, but only if the correct professional, focused, interested attitude is there and maintained. I found some of the average guys taking it for granted that after 3-4 years they would be a captain and earning the big bucks before 30. Their focus was in the wrong place and when time came they were still only average and struggling. Some woke up and scraped through, but should they have been in the industry in the first place?
So, if RYR, ez, or any other of the new boys on the block are considered to have a solid training regime suitable for the modern world and large modern airliners e.g. B777, A340/380 then why not poach them. With the correct attitude they could be very valuable. Would I employ them to fly IFR/VFR around the islands & highlands; I doubt it. But as we saw in the Qantas A380 engine blow out scenario some of the old airmanship methods are necessary, occasionally.

Mikehotel152

7th Apr 2014, 21:13

Interesting post Rat 5.

polax52

7th Apr 2014, 21:37

Thank you Rat 5. It was an excellent Post. I m interested to know which side of the debate you fall though. It does seem as though we are moving into new territory for Ryanair as their rate of attrition is increasing and as new aircraft arrive, they want to replace and add Pilots who really have no experience and to an extent never seen before. As I am sure you are aware it is my view that these levels are not safe, even with the quality of equipment that you are talking about and operating in the all radar environment of Europe.

Dr Jones, what type of aircraft do you fly?

RAT 5

7th Apr 2014, 22:05

What's always confused me, as a pilot and not a business-man, is why, if what I hear is true, RYR and perhaps others shy away from experienced F/O's. Airlines go bust, sometimes they wilt from the competition pressure of the of the LoCo's. It is almost as if there is a law of the jungle out there and the expansion of the strongest is accelerated by the demise of their prey. In a dod eat dog capitalistic environment that seems to be the rule. But why then do the expanding airlines not absorb those whom they have put to the sword? They are expanding and need new commanders. They expand and promote from within, faster then their own F/O's can gain the experience. Yet out there in the market place are the experienced pilots who were in the wrong place at the wrong time waiting to offer their services. Rejected in preference to a 150hr cadet. It is said the LoCo's make a profit from them. Perhaps so, but what is the cost, risk & time spent on getting them onto the line and up to speed as safe pilots? An experienced type rated F/O can be released on line with 4-6 weeks max. A cadet from start of TQ training will take over 6 months. Where is the common sense in that. If an accountant can show the cadet scheme makes more financial sense them I presume the board will buy it, but is it really true? It does seem a daft model where experience is a penalty, especially when we see some of the accidents being executed very month. Is it only me, or are we reading more often about prangs than 10 years ago? Every month there seem to be stories of someone somewhere in the world making a perfectly serviceable a/c not land at the desired point.

DrJones

7th Apr 2014, 22:07

Polax 52 - I fly Citation Excel.

I'm not doubting flying an airline in poor weather conditions can not be tricky, but on the flip side going to an airport you have never been too before and doing an NDB approach down to Mins at night can be just as challenging.

LNIDA

8th Apr 2014, 03:56

I'll try and keep it very simple for you: I fly around 3 times a week with ex Ryanair pilots, occasionally i also fly with pilots who have come from a variety of other airlines, all were type rated on the 737 prior to joining my airline.

So my comments about their skill level is based on personal experience objectively, they are well trained and their SOP compliance & CRM skills are of an high order, it is significant that we now sim check First officers from all other airlines other than Ryanair, my airlines has quantified that the training risk from pilots from Ryanair is so low that it does not justify the time and cost of a sim check pre offer of employment, conversely our experience with F/o's from other airlines is the opposite.

If i misunderstand the point you are making I apologise, you seem to me? to be saying that there is no evidence that Ryanair pilots receive better training than other airlines, a simple yard stick is the minimum number of sectors a pilot is required to complete before being released for final line check and released to line if the check is passed.

Ryanair min 80 sectors
Norwegian 40
Monarch 10
Jet2 20

In Ryanair these are pilots that are in general without any previous airline experience, In Norwegian these are for pilots previously type rated on either the CL/NG (including ex Ryanair pilots) Norwegian MPL student will do at least 100 sectors, In Monarch this target (rarely met) is for all pilots previously rated or not, Jet2 in general is more threshold based i understand?

So for my simple mind please quantify the point your are making? more importantly on what facts/personal experience are you basing it on please, i do this for a living............

Lord Spandex Masher

8th Apr 2014, 09:17

Ryanair's minimum of 80 sectors is no doubt financially driven.

Jet2's 20 sectors minimum is for TRd or similar type experienced pilots and it's 40 minimum for Abos.

Anyway, you can't tell the quality of instruction simply from the minimum number of sectors required and arguably you'd need more training sectors if the instruction is poor.

RAT 5

8th Apr 2014, 09:51

To be fair there is also a consideration about the route network. If the network included only the large, major, radar, ILS type airports then the required number of sectors might seem quite low. They are all the same structure and you fly the numbers and do as ATC tells you. You can study the taxi charts before the flight, but everything else is pretty standard.
If the network covers a variety of airfield types, approaches and differing types of environment during all 4 seasons it might explain why some carriers would like a fuller exposure before releasing raw cadets on to the line. That seems a common sense philosophy. I'm not saying that a line training roster is constructed with such an overview, sadly, but it could explain why there are more sectors with some than others if it was. Another idea could be that, given the low experience of many captains in todays rapidly expanding airlines, it is thought wise to have the cadets at a higher level of proficiency before being teamed up with a new boy in LHS.
I wonder if any of the above is indeed in the thinking of those who decide such matters.

StevieW

8th Apr 2014, 11:21

"Ryanair's minimum of 80 sectors is no doubt financially driven."

How does that work? I understand that FR pilots don't get paid whilst on line training, but the safety pilot will...

Al Murdoch

8th Apr 2014, 11:34

Safety pilot is only there for the first few sectors. Once released, the cadet starts getting paid.

StevieW

8th Apr 2014, 11:51

Exactly, which is why I'm intrigued about LSM's point about 80 sectors being 'financially driven'? At all times there will be two pilots on the flight deck getting paid.

JW411

8th Apr 2014, 16:14

As a matter of interest, when I joined Laker Airways in 1979, we were expected to check out on the DC-10 in 12 sectors. Most of us had no trouble achieving this but then we were all quite experienced and certainly all of us had considerably more than 200 hours in our logbooks.

pudoc

8th Apr 2014, 16:59

Ryanair's minimum of 80 sectors is no doubt financially driven.

It's 66 sectors actually. And I don't see your point as the FO gets paid after being safety pilot released (12 sectors).

Sean Dillon

8th Apr 2014, 17:53

Despite the thread generally been about Ryanair! I know of a mate who's started at Jet2 this year, he's current and a very experienced Boeing pilot - he's on 50% reduced salary until training is finished; doing 5 simulator sessions, 2 jump-seat flights on an aircraft he's flown for nearly 10 years and 20 sectors training planned...maybe Pilot Apprentices are J2 thing!?!

This industry and it's management are nothing short of pathetic... The world has lost its way....it's not just FR! And I gather recruitment at Yorkshires Airline is ongoing due to its turnover, present intake not overly impressed either...

Lord Spandex Masher

8th Apr 2014, 18:02

It's 66 sectors actually. And I don't see your point as the FO gets paid after being safety pilot released (12 sectors).

Not my point, an ex Ryanair guy told me he was on reduced cash until he passed his final line check.

matsemann

8th Apr 2014, 19:35

Spandex; it's true that the salery during line training is reduced, but then again, the line trainers get extra pay. All in all, I can't see it being financially driven

polax52

8th Apr 2014, 20:45

Yes but the line trainers pay is increased all the time therefore you need to keep the cadets on low pay as long as possible to balance it. I can not see it not being financially driven. Spandex isn't so naive.

jeehaa

8th Apr 2014, 21:08

LTC get +10 euro gross psbh
Cadet gets -20 euro less psbh

Ryanair keeps a minimum of 10 euro psbh for every cadet during the whole linetraining + the rest of the month in which the first linecheck took place (i.e. checked on March 1 = rest of March on -20€ pay)

Journey Man

8th Apr 2014, 23:30

Putting the word "quantified" in an anecdote... well, it looks jolly good, but isn't the same thing as an actual, verifiable measurement.

I'm sure the boys and girls of FR are very well trained. I don't see evidence that they're not. Are they better trained than BA? Better trained than EasyJet? Come on, LNIDA. At least put some perspective on things. It's all very vague...

Three Lions

9th Apr 2014, 08:11

RAT 5 post 238 makes a very good point. specifically:

"but what is the cost, risk & time spent on getting them onto the line and up to speed as safe pilots? An experienced type rated F/O can be released on line with 4-6 weeks max. A cadet from start of TQ training will take over 6 months. Where is the common sense in that. If an accountant can show the cadet scheme makes more financial sense them I presume the board will buy it, but is it really true? It does seem a daft model where experience is a penalty"

However I cannot understand why a company would follow something not financially viable, and to such lengths?

Surely it must have a financial benefit otherwise it would not be considered, after all accountants job depends on them getting the best out of what money they have to play around with. Why would any accountant worth his/her salt recommend something to the company that wasnt financially viable? In this capitalistic world this isnt going to happen

I believe you are right, but I dont understand how you are right ... if that makes sense.

I personally dont sign up to the "good attitude" "one stop shop" and "known training background" now any of the other old pony originated from the ftos (nor either the best of the lot - the impending pilot shortage) you dont get anything different from cadets in comparison to experienced new hires apart from the same mix of personas with good/fine/bad/appalling attitude, the only difference is the lack of experience and background.

Cadets are essential but the ratio to experienced guys has to be correct.

I am actually also interested in whether 300 pilots have left RYR? it is an interesting development if this is actually true.

A and C

9th Apr 2014, 09:13

I can't say if 300 is totaly correct but the evidence of those ex- RYR guys that I seem to fly with more and more seems to point to the numbers being in the order of 300 and increasing.

RAT 5

9th Apr 2014, 10:04

RYR has 3000 pilots. An attrition rate of 10% is not unexpected in any airline. This could be made up of retirements, loss of licence, moving on. I wonder how You'll see from the 3 common reasons there is a spread between the older long served veterans, the unfortunate LoL guys of all ages and the more likely mid-expereinced guys who move on. It is likely that the 'movers-on' are not from the nationals but more the next level of operators. How is the ratio in other large airlines?
What might be more of concern is if the vast majority of losses fall into the 'movers-on' category. That identifies that they don't view their company as a medium/longterm career provider. That's disappointing. It reflects on motivation, loyalty and personal investment. It also causes the in-house training dept. a lot of work and dilutes the company culture in higher ranks, or leaves a short-fall of suitable candidates for promotion.
Are other similar airlines experiencing the same outflux? I'm sure there is a vast movement of vacancies inside the industry rather like a solataire; where there is an empty hole but it just keeps moving; i.e. there is a limited number of vacancies and as people move the vacancies move rather than increase. The large movement of labour may give an impression there are countless vacancies.

172_driver

9th Apr 2014, 18:22

What might be more of concern is if the vast majority of losses fall into the 'movers-on' category. That identifies that they don't view their company as a medium/longterm career provider. That's disappointing. It reflects on motivation, loyalty and personal investment. It also causes the in-house training dept. a lot of work and dilutes the company culture in higher ranks, or leaves a short-fall of suitable candidates for promotion.

I understand you're not saying that with your Ryanair hat on, but it's not really strange if people don't see it as a long term career? Unable to get a mortgage, unable to settle down at any location, tax/social insurance issues, not knowing how many standbys the winter will offer, years ticking by without any accumulated pension (unless saving privately), not knowing when the next home base opportunity will open (or stay open, for that matter), painful commuting, threats of 5/3 roster. It works for some, the prospect of PIC time is nice. But there shouldn't be any surprise why experienced FOs in late 20/early 30 that are ready to settle down with their partners, perhaps have kids, look for something better?