Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?

[Depone]

2400 hrs?

What makes you think that?

[Shooting_Star]

Unpopular Bases are I believe those in Morocco and very much to the east of Europe. Aswell the Italian islands and Italy in general due to taxation issues.
Should be possible to get a spanish base though as there are many.
Where did you hear that they will lower the requirements? Can hardly believe you can become captain at 2400hr :\

[Callsign Kilo]

Whilst the new initiatives may be a last ditch management attempt to attract more FOs into the pretty unpopular CU process, the 2400hr figure relates to starting that process, not sitting in the left hand seat, taking command of a 737.

Anyway, if there are lack of crews to fly the summer schedule then the damage is already done.

[doniedarko]

Just to add a some pragmatism here. Maybe 300 have left and maybe they (RYR) are short of Captains. They already have wet leased aircraft for the summer. It would not be to hard to wet lease more and follow up with the usual bullsh*t to the shareholders ..."due to unprecedented demand for Ryanair's low fare's..blah blah I think Micko and they boys need a really good summer to placate institutional shareholders who are looking at the returns EZY are making !..Either way it will make no difference to how RYR treat their staff. Staff are expenses not assets in RYR world !

[737 Jockey]

Well I've seen the latest STN T&C's and there's an option to have a 'summer roster' giving extra sector pay and 'guaranteed' summer leave, I think it's very clear that they are struggling to crew the summer schedule. But they will NEVER show a chink in their armour and admit it. Their own ego and arrogance would see them run the airline into the ground rather than accept a fair and professional relationship with their own Pilots.

As an aside, I watched with a mixture of disbelief and cringing at the latest attempt to play catch up with easyJet, the TV commercials last night. I think O'Brien & Bellew (in their new roles in the sales & marketing dept.) must be behind this piece of Hollywood genius. Same old, same old, cheap, tacky and I'd like to see them filming at the boarding gate in STN for an Italian flight when all the pax turn up with two big cabin bags, that should make good TV!

You shall reap what you sow, and I hope O'Leary is going to be forced out sooner rather than later.

For the benefit of the Ryanair lawyers trawling Pprune for libel/slander, The above is all just my humble opinion of course. :mad: you very much!

[jpaul3767]

"They just decided to lower requirement for upgrade to 2400h ! Nice and easy ..."

Latest I have seen on the Base TRE desk in STN is still 2800 hours. I have heard no mention of 2400 hours. There is a lot of " someone told me this and that" but a lot of it is often not true.

In regards to shortage of Captains, I think they are in a shortage at the moment, many captains telling me they are being asked to work days off and a lot of captains telling me they are going to Etihad or Norwegian 787.

But new upgrades are being kept on as first offciers for about a month after completing the command upgrade. Strange but true and I have no idea as to the reason...

[Mr Boombastick]

This latest effort is a sign of desperation, unfortunately it hasn't been thought through enough by management and, in my opinion will have little effect.

Ryr has seen unprecedented resignations recently due to the heavy recruitment of Norweigan, now things seem to be picking up in the sandpit this will only add to their woes. The RPG have brought various things to the attention of shareholders who are now putting pressure on management to do something to stop the haemorrhaging of experienced guys to competitors.

10 eur / hr pay rise from 2400 hrs to command is a tactic to tie guys in who are just about to be eligible to apply to Etihad and Emirates.
There will be some kind of contract involved, as there is no way are they going to just give guys an extra 10 eu an hour only for them to foxtrot oscar when something better turns up.
Its also worth baring in mind that this extra pay for the 6 months or so that you are being 'coached' prior to doing the course will ultimately mean a bigger pay CUT when you take the command.
It also doesn't cover the time that you will be receiving no pay whilst in the sim and classroom on the CU course.

I think its a JAA requirement for guys to have >3000 hrs to be in command of a Jar25 aircraft. Might be completely wrong but would explain why guys are going back to the rhs for a month or so. I also heard mention that it was to work out the notice of their BRK contracts prior to going onto a RYR contract.

There is a very simple way Ryr can stop guys leaving; Introduce a fair contract for everyone where the pay is inline with competitors. And, introduce a fair and transparent basing system.

[Rushed Approach]

RYR has 3000 pilots. An attrition rate of 10% is not unexpected in any airline. This could be made up of retirements, loss of licence, moving on.

We've lost 60 in the last 3 years to retirements, leavers and lost medicals, with 550 total. I make that 3.6% a year on average.

[Depone]

An established airline with a standard workforce demographic is likely to lose a small percentage to retirements, leavers and lost medicals but the locos probably have a far younger average pilot age, so those categories of retirements are going to have a minimal impact, and consequently where there is a far, far higher turnover, something else must be going on.

[Say Mach Number]

For what its worth and what I was told;

Command hours are normally set by the airlines insurance company and with approval of the relevant Authority.

My previous UK airline; 2000hrs for turbo prop command

4000hrs for jet command

Reason for 4000hrs for jet was because the jet was a new type to the company.

[go around flaps15]

Where is the like button? After a long week of earlies that did make me chuckle. PPRuNe gold.

[Facelookbovvered]

At the end of the day FR still have by a huge margin a lower cost base than virtually all other European airlines, indeed FR describe themselves as a "ultra low cost airline" the recent change in strategy to move to more main steam airports and reduced baggage fee's and other charges will no doubt over time nibble away at their cost advantage, but we are talking of a few cents at best, the biggest cost impact would come from addressing the main reason that many experienced FR pilots are calling it a day, which from conversations i've had seem to be lack of certainty of the pilot tax & social insurance position, lack of standby pay, lack of holiday pay and a basing policy that can lead to you living out of a suitcase, the actual money earned doesn't seem bad, but the rub is that throwing more money at the problem through increased sector pay will not address the real issues.

Unfortunately when you know the cost of everything but don't understand the value of anything then this is what happens, I personally don't see it changing whilst ever MOL is in charge, pilots are a cost they detract from the bottom line and add nothing to the business seems to be the mantra, perhaps it's no bad thing, their low cost and prices seems to attract a larger share of the bottom feeders in pax terms, the people who benefit from this approach appear to be FlyDubai & Norwegian and the sand pitt T7 operators, funny old world.

[FRyup82]

And while you are all discussing how to improve pilot conditions, you don't realise or you don't care about the fact that any increase in pilot conditions directly means a decrease in cabin crew conditions who have far less capability to organise themselves.

It's probably the later, never met such egocentric characters than in an FR flight deck.

[Rushed Approach]

LNIDA

If i misunderstand the point you are making I apologise, you seem to me? to be saying that there is no evidence that Ryanair pilots receive better training than other airlines, a simple yard stick is the minimum number of sectors a pilot is required to complete before being released for final line check and released to line if the check is passed.

Ryanair min 80 sectors
Norwegian 40
Monarch 10
Jet2 20


So you are saying that the quality of training is better in Ryanair than it is in the other carriers you quote because they (FR) need to do more of it? This could equally imply the training is worse as it takes the trainer double the time to achieve the desired result! I don't believe the standards of training are anything less than very good in all of the airlines you quote.

Could it be that the other carriers are generally taking on a more experienced pilot/better quality recruit in the first place, and hence doesn't need to waste expensive training resource teaching grandma to suck eggs?

What these stats imply at first glance (if they are true) is that FR take significantly more sectors to get their recruits to a certain standard i.e. where the F/O no longer needs to fly with a trainer. However, from the above posts it appears that this may however be cost driven, so in reality no conclusion can be drawn about either training standards or the standard of candidates.

[A and C]

I think the 80 sectors has far more to do with the money that is to paid to pilots prior to being line checked than the quality of the pilots.

[Aluminium shuffler]

FRyup82, of course yo are right. Instead of cabin crew trying to get together and fight their corner, the RYR pilots should instead take huge pay cuts, work days off unpaid, have no time at home with their family and not fight to make sure their taxes are paid legally just to the cabin crew can get a pay rise. I have no doubt that if their pilots roll over, RYR's management will be so pleased that they will give the money saved to the cabin crew. In the mean time, any group trying collectively to improve life for their families, themselves and their colleagues and trying to ensure their taxes are paid correctly where due should be regarded as insufferably selfish.:ugh:

FRyup82, you are an arse.

[Rushed Approach]

In my airline 40 line sectors is typical for ex-CTC or MPL pilots, and that applies right back three decades or so when we first took c. 200 hr pilots onto jets for the first time.

[LNIDA]

I think the answer is a lot more complicated than that, i.e. poor training/candidates.

Lets start with what i would call "willing to fail syndrome" by this i mean there is a large body of people wanting to see MOL/FR fail, these range from other airlines, pilots and of course the press who would love to report a smoking hole in the ground with a harp poking out.

To counter this, the company following a few incidents some years back take a very very strict line on SOP compliance, this is IMO far easier to achieve with fresh blood not tainted by previous experience of other airlines. They know only the FR way

Route threats

FR fly into far more secondary airports then most airlines, often with only NPA available which means they a) have to know what they are doing & B) get more practice at doing it, RNAV approaches using LNAV/VNAV is second nature.

Cost of training

An F/o is required in the RHS whether he/she is under training or not, my understanding is that FR F/o get less per sector when under training than after? so it is actually cheaper than using a regular F/o also the F/o having some how stumped up the funds for training in the first place tend to be focused and keen.

Quality of trainers

More difficult to answer, but they sure get a lot of practice

Quality of training

Well i can only say that the quality and depth of knowledge particularly tech knowledge is by a magnitude better than the average that i have observed with the average of pilots that have come from elsewhere.

90%+ Of accident reports that i have reviewed occurred because of a failure of one or more of three elements, in order these are

1) SOP understanding and compliance/discipline
2) CRM
3) TEM Threat error management


I think FR understand the rule book on safe flying, when one reviews the daily posting on Aviation Herald's web site and how infrequently Ryanair, easyJet & Norwegian feature, even more so given the huge number of sectors flown says volumes.

Of course having new single type fleets, with all the latest safety toys all helps

Ryanair cadets will of course need more sectors because they are not type rated, but you are painting onto a fresh canvas, you are not having to undo someone else's work.

I'm no apologist for FR, far from it, i think they could increase safety even further by addressing some of the absurd employment practices at little or no cost much as they have done with the tweaks to passenger T&C's but lets be clear it is by any standard a very safe airline.

My understanding is that if a pilot needs the toilet a cabin crew member goes inside the flight deck to guard against pilot incapacitation with the other pilot locked outside trying to fumble with door code and waiting 30 sec whilst the guy inside is slumped over the column with the A/P off and in a dive.

[Rushed Approach]

Has that ever happened? Not a problem in the Airbus :ok:

[Scott_T]

Wy are they wet leasing 3 737 classics from air contractors in Dublin for the summer, they must be really really short.....

[C-141Starlifter]

They are also leasing two 737 400s out of Slovakia.

[Journey Man]

FR fly into far more secondary airports then most airlines, often with only NPA available which means they a) have to know what they are doing & B) get more practice at doing it, RNAV approaches using LNAV/VNAV is second nature.

Again... why is this such an unusual thing for airline pilots? Is this really the bar we're using to define exceptional pilots?

An NPA should not be taxing for ANY commercial pilot. If it is, you're on the wrong side of the cockpit door.

[Al Murdoch]

Most pilots at the very large airline that I now work for :mad: themselves at the mention of an NPA.

[FRyup82]

Thanks Aluminium shuffler, you just proved my point.
No you could try and improve both pilots and cabin crew conditions rather then just concentrating on your egocentric selves.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Why are Cabin crew conditions now the responsibility of the pilots? How much effort do any CC put into it? How many of you have joined the much cheaper and more effective CC unions? The RYR pilots have a hard enough time fighting for themselves, and seem to be having limited success. Why not fight your own corner rather than crying that others aren't fighting it for you? You are doing exactly what RYR management want - turning on your colleagues and fighting them instead of the management. Stupid isn't strong enough a word...

[FRyup82]

Oh we should use current unions? Which one then exactly? About 20 different ones in 20 different countries. And then what? It's not like when pilots joined existing unions like IALPA and BALPA that the succes was overwhelming was it?
Where did I say that pilots need to fight for the cabin crew. I'm talking about fighting together. Has anyone from REPA ever approached any CC to try and do that?

As long as you have a couple of 1000 EUR on your bankaccount right? Never mind that no4 CC that barely gets 900EUR on a bad month.

Btw, name calling is a sign of weakness. Very adult behaviour! ;)

[Shooting_Star]

You think that pilots get so much more in a bad month then 900€ considering they pay double social security up to 50% +21% tax + accountant costs...:ugh: and fly 30hours/month. Anyway goodluck with the fight :ok:

[fulminn]

I'm on the "new" contract, flying an average of 60bh per month. After irish taxes and spanish social security I'm getting around 3500net. Obviously in some bases you fly 30(which is the minimum payed by the company now, on this contract) which mean you will earn 1700net. But now i see most of the fo's in most bases are flying quite a lot, if you a good month you can bring home 4,5/5k after tax wich is not bad in my opinion. No need to say that i prefer less net money and a normal contract, as far as i know now regular FR CONTRACT fo's are getting around 3-3,5 per month for 12 months.

[172_driver]

fulmin,

I presume you are new? You still have your TR and LT cost to claim as expenses. How "doped" is your salary? Wait until you pay full Irish PAYE, possibly USC and PRSI. Are you Spanish? Do you expect to enjoy any of the benefits from paying Spanish SI, i.e. accumulate pension? Keep in mind you are only paid 11 out of 12 months. Do you expect any rise to match inflation? Not exactly industry leading.

[Shooting_Star]

Just wait until your expense of TR is gone :ugh: you wont be even close to 3500!

[odearyoleary]

“Never since Noah floated the ark has there ever been a shortage of people who get paid about 150,000 euros to legally fly no more than 900 hours,” O’Leary said.

This a quote only yesterday in BLOOMBERG reference:

Taming Ryanair Becomes Personal Gamble for Tough-Talking O?Leary - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-16/taming-ryanair-becomes-personal-gamble-for-tough-talking-o-leary.html)

Surely this is a job for the 'trade descriptions act' , false advertising, just plain lies and deceit. New commanders with Ryanair earning one third of that and living in some godforsaken place in deepest darkest Eastern Europe on a 5/3 roster. Yeah he's right, never has there been a shortage of wannabes HOPING for the dream of these ficticiouly false salaries but the truth is vastly immeasurably inconceivably hugely different form O'Leary's lies that he spouts to journalists and investors.

[LNIDA]

3500..net

For a lot of people they would consider that a good net wage and this is why pilots don't get the sympathy vote when industrial action looms, of course for a profession its along way from a good wage, but at least the type of contract your on allows you to offset your training costs against tax, which you wouldn't be able to do if you weren't sort off self employed, pay for a type rating to join say Jet2 and if your employed directly or by Xenon/Zenon then it a 100% hit on your bottom line.

So see it for what it is, not what you would like it to be, get your 1000 hours, learn your skill, move on, its cynical i know, but its cynical on both sides, we were never educated to approach employment for our dream job, of get in asap, get out asap, but the smart guys/girls do just that, oh and try and enjoy it :ok:

[Aluminium shuffler]

Yet again, Fryup, you show your true colours - you expect the Ryanair PILOT Group to approach the cabin crew. You don't approach the RPG yourself, and you certainly make no effort to form a cabin crew body. You just want to ride on the backs of the pilots, most of whom are facing most of the same problems as the cabin crew contractors but with the added issue of debts of over £100k.

I'm all for cabin crew fighting the RYR management - I sympathise with their situation, especially the contractors, but if the RYR pilots are relatively powerless to improve their own positions, what makes you think they have the time, money or influence to improve yours?

If you want you circumstances to get better, then like everyone else in the world, you'll have to fight for it yourselves. Slagging off your colleagues and being bitter about not being a pilot is going to get you nothing but the contempt of the pilots who currently sympathise with you.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

I remeber a few years back MOL wanted to fly with one pilot and a trained stewardess would take the RHS if complications arrise. How about after the aircraft gets to the cruise, the FO goes down the back and helps sell phone and scratch cards along with expensive drinks and food then returns to the flight deck at TOD.

[Elephant and Castle]

You are confusing operational reality with the recurrent publicity stunts

[kungfu panda]

I still think that you guys should publicly withdraw smooth landings until a contract is in place and union recognition is obtained.

It wouldn't make any difference to be honest but just go public with why the landings are never smooth with Ryanair.

[Globally Challenged]

That would be a daft thing to do.

I presume you have fleet-wide FDM so if you are identified as someone who is over-stressing the gear then I would expect to be shown the door pretty bloody sharpish.

[JB007]

I still think that you guys should publicly withdraw smooth landings until a contract is in place and union recognition is obtained.

It wouldn't make any difference to be honest but just go public with why the landings are never smooth with Ryanair.

The people (I hesitate to use the word 'professionals') in this industry have officially lost the plot! Barking...just barking!

[odearyoleary]

“Never since Noah floated the ark has there ever been a shortage of people who get paid about 150,000 euros to legally fly no more than 900 hours,” O’Leary said.
This from a very recent Bloomberg article.
Even though the reality is vastly different, (calculate one third of that for a recently upgraded captain and you'll be pretty close to the mark).
These are the lies that investors are being told about pilots at flashy conferences.
This is why Ryanair have to resort to yet more cunning 'back you into a corner' tactics of bribing the FO's an extra tenner an hour to enrol into the command course.
This is why pilots are leaving.

[N747EX]

Hundreds of pilots take flight from Ryanair with more planning exit

20 April 2014 by Nicola Cooke

Hundreds of Ryanair pilots have left the airline in the last 12 to 18 months, and hundreds more plan to leave in the next 12 months, according to information acquired by the Ryanair Pilot Group (RPG).

Between 300 and 500 Ryanair pilots are understood to have left the airline in the last 18 months to take up jobs with the new transatlantic service provider Norwegian Air Shuttle, as well as with Middle Eastern airlines and other operators such as Thomson and Wizz Air.

In a new survey of Ryanair pilots which was carried out by RPG and generated responses from 1,128 of the airline's pilots, almost one third said they planned to leave the Irish-owned airline within the next 12 months. That figure jumped to 50 per cent when it included pilots planning to leave within in the next two years.

Two in three said they might reconsider their plans to leave the airline if issues around pay, treatment and respect were improved. A Ryanair spokesman disputed the RPG's figures for pilots who have left the airline, and said the company currently employs over 2,500 pilots. In a financial statement in March 2013, Ryanair listed their pilot numbers at 2,625.

In a memo sent to all pilots on April 11 by Michael Hickey, Ryanair's group director of operations which has been seen for this newspaper, the company appears to offer new incentives to pilots in order to retain them. These include an optional extra payment of Euro 10 per scheduled block [flying] hour for first officers who are enrolled in the command upgrade programme (to become captains) after May 1, and an improved co-pilots' ''stable earnings programme. The airline is ''also looking at the option of offering additional salaried contracts, through both Ryanair and third parties, according to Hickey's memo.

Ryanair spokesman Robin Kiely said the company did ''not comment on departures or recruitment.

''We have a waiting list of over 2,000 qualified pilots hoping to join Ryanair on an ongoing basis, he said. ''New base [employment] agreements included pay increases, roster improvements and other benefits, which is why we have pilots waiting to join at a time when pilot unions across Europe are negotiating job cuts and pay cuts in Iberia, SAS, Air Berlin and Alitalia, to name a few.

The company would not provide a breakdown of the split of captains and first officers employed as pilots. The former are senior to, and more experienced than, the latter.

RPG chairman Evert van Zwol said, based on information provided by RPG members from across the Ryanair network, ''we have very strong evidence to believe that up to 500 pilots have left the company in the last 18 months.
'
'There may be many reasons for pilots leaving, but our recent survey and feedback from pilots suggest it is due to dissatisfaction with terms and conditions of employment, and how pilots are treated by Ryanair, he said. ''The survey provides worrying information about the intentions of current pilots to leave Ryanair, which we would like to see addressed”.

[kungfu panda]

I think I have been misunderstood.

The Cathay Pacific cabin crew used the statement "they were withdrawing smiles" as a very effecive negotiating tool with management, of course it was just a statement for the public to swallow, nothing changed in reality.

In this case with Ryanair's current PR changes, some kind of Pilot statement could also be effective.

I am of course not suggesting any real changes to the way anybody does things during critical phases of flight, that would be "barking".

[stiglet]

So why say it? ...... unless of course you are 'barking'.

[DooblerChina]

What's it got to do with dogs?

[16024]

If anyone in ryanair were to "withdraw smiles" they would have to let the world know, so we could all tell the difference...

[Narrow Runway]

This thread is about 300 (?) pilots leaving Ryanair isn't it?

Why people feel the need to discuss the quality, or not, of the Ryanair training department is beyond me.

Surely if the numbers of pilots leaving are of the order being discussed, it shows only one thing: Ryanair are NOT an employer of choice for many.

It doesn't necessarily always come down to glib soundbites at investor days from a CEO about fantasy salaries - that he knows the vast majority of his crews will NEVER earn. Far from it in fact.

It boils down to tolerance, professionalism and respect. Once the gloss has worn off the fact that "I'm a jet pilot", many are dissatisfied with the way they are treated and the misery that their lives have become.

A fish rots from the head down, and by extension it is the same with any poor corporate culture.

Long may any exodus continue.

[stiglet]

Remember this is a rumour network. Much of what you read, I beleive, is hyped up and ryanair bashing; as is 'and the misery that their lives have become'. Get real. We still have the job lots of people aspire to. Many of those posting on here have a vested interest in stirring things up.

If you're in and you don't like it, make the most of it and leave when you can; if you're not in and don't like it, don't join. Good luck to those who are in and want to stay. Competition is always good for the industry.

[Narrow Runway]

Glad you are happy. It sure seems a great place to work.

[kungfu panda]

Stiglet:

You have it all wrong, this "vote with your feet" thing is bull....

All countries in Europe have laws allowing trade union representation for employees that wish. Ryanair have manipulated the system in Europe to prevent this legal right.

Whilst I am happy that 300+ guys have left, they should not be forced to go elsewhere to find a company that complies correctly with the law.

[Callsign Kilo]

Narrow a Runway will be telling everyone how wonderful his job is in a minute. I'm surprised he hasn't done this already as it's a common feature in many of his postings.

Anyway, I'm only jealous, as he will undoubtably claim. I probably am, in a way, as I would like to have a better position than the one that I have at the moment. However this may also also be down to the 'grass is always greener' bug that most of us pilots appear to catch. I'm also aware that I'm not exactly in a bad position either.

I will agree with something, this thread is about pilots leaving FR. Not their training department, training standards, pilot ability, MOL's ramblings or an opportunity to kick the **** out of Ryanair by every second poster. But this is pprune, and keeping to the point is a common challenge.

I will say one thing about the subject at hand. While the official number of resignations may never be known, it certainly feels much more than the 'exodus' a number of years back when Emirates recruited en mass. And to be perfectly blunt, I can't see much let up as the company appear to be doing little to nothing in order to appease it's pilots. This summer will be an interesting one, so I'm told.

[Narrow Runway]

No, this isn't about my job. as good, or as bad as it may be.

My point about a miserable existence for many within Ryanair, is one which is told ad infinitum on PPRUNE and elsewhere - about a wide number of subjects.

I genuinely wish that there were enough jobs for all Ryanair pilots to resign for. Then, we may see change.

[jollyjoe321]

I think an influx of new pilots is a good thing. Though I'm somewhat biased due to my age.

No, what disgusts me mainly is the new pilots who have virtually no interest in aviation, have never flown (yes, there were a few at the open days I've attended), and are just entering aviation for a decent salary. What's even more surprising is that these people aren't filtered out in the selection process. I guess the only thing training organisations want is the rich mum and dads to pay for it.

[kungfu panda]

Jolliejoe, I wish you good luck, if your posting on this thread you are clearly reviewing the views of experienced Pilots.

It is an industry in decline from a profession point of view. In real terms salaries have halved in the last 20 years and will certainly half again in the next 20.

[Otto32_fr]

I work for RYR and I have to say that nobody Knows exactly what happens in the company or what are the plans. They will never say that people is leaving, because they just consider the RYR contract guys, not the Brookfield. I don´t Know if anything is going to change, but for sure they have thousands of CV for rated captains or FO´s ready for start, a lot of pilots around the world who kill their family to get a job in Europe. I don´t thing they want to keep pilots in the company, they make a lot of money with the type ratings. Will see what happens in the near future, but in 5 months the winter is coming and they will ground same aircraft and they won´t need as many pilots as now. I hope thing will change,¨I´m an FO and looking for hours and a transparent transfer list,nothing else, it doen´t cost any money to the comapany and they don´t want to do it, so it must be a reason behind. Will see

[captplaystation]

Control, it is all about control.

No transfer lists, different contracts for everybody . . . . "control" (you have no say in your base/no say in your contract, we CONTROL you ) get it ? it seems people do.


I had to laugh at this post above

" I still think that you guys should publicly withdraw smooth landings until a contract is in place and union recognition is obtained."


I seem to remember during my RYR employment between 2002 & 2008 performing a fairly high percentage of "smooth landings", but (and yes, I have read the Boeing FCTM too) I think I remember (because it was exceptional ) about 3 smooth landings in the 80 RYR flights I have taken as a fare paying Joe Bloggs in the last 2 years.

I have managed (in my current employment ) to land both accurately (I.E where I wanted to in the TDZ ) & smoothly on some fairly short RWY's in the N of Norway.

Do you guys really not give a :mad: to that extent ? I always put personal pride above my feelings toward my employer, has the world changed so much . . . or have the RYR pilot Corp's skills deteriorated "that" much ?

[Piltdown Man]

What keeps Ryanair in business is being nimble, lean and very fit. This means it is able to adapt to and exploit any changes in its sphere of operations. If you don't confirm, you are out. This also gives the downside resulting in employees and contractors never being able to plan for what most people consider to be a future. Effectively, RYR is the corporate equivalent of a gypsy. Personally I don't do business with people who only have mobile telephone numbers, have "fat weddings" and crap in hedges purely because not only I do I not trust them, there's little I can do if something goes wrong. But it appears that the travelling public don't care. As long as it's cheap, they'll travel. Part of that cheapness comes from the way subcontractors are managed, ie. pilots. They too are paying the price and when Europe's tax officials start growing a few pairs, some also be paying some hefty back tax bills as well.

Best of luck.

[DIA74]

Didn't RYR recently employ a "Director of being Nice" to improve their image? Their new sales campaign is trying to overcome the perception :)they are a nasty airline to fly with. Smiling, relaxed pax about to board, better website, free carry on bags (where are THEY going to be stowed?). Judging from comments here, sounds as if the "Director being Nice" needs to spend some time convincing crews too.

[galwaypilot]

Well the FO's and Captains are hitting the 100 hour mark in Dublin and Stansted. And I presume across the network. I know of people who left for greener pastures and now are looking to get back in! We all know that's not going to happen. Especially FO's.

[Al Murdoch]

That's not the message they are putting out - all are welcome back...
Desperate times, desperate measures.
A leopard never changes its spots though - so be careful what you wish for folks.

[nrn]

Why the hell would you ever come back to this joint. I was quite happy in Ryanair but with upcoming command and seeing what they pay the buggers I thought no way josé. I wil never go back to Ryanair. Even if they give me golden mountains, you can't change the management culture overnight...

[galwaypilot]

Well- if a skipper wanted back in I'd say they'd take him/her as they are extremely sort. Just depends how they left. (Eg. Not sacked, did they work their notice etc.) as for the FO's their not too short to be fair, and there's noway at this time FR would take them back. For FO's this rule has been in place for many years now. Unless they have the time on type/total time for a command course!

[Al Murdoch]

Yes, it has been in place for many years, but think about the kind of FOs who have left: largely good enough to get jobs in real airlines and mostly ready for Command at Ryanair, or actually past the minimum hours. They are now much more experienced and would be an asset to Ryanair if they were to return. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but it might suit some.
The word is that the days of the one way street are over. For now.

[JW411]

I spent 19 years with my last company. We had an unwritten rule that if someone walked, they never came back. Only one exception was ever allowed and he walked again within six months. In my opinion it is always a mistake to re-hire someone who has already quit because they were unhappy.

[RAT 5]

In my opinion it is always a mistake to re-hire someone who has already quit because they were unhappy.

Surely that would depend on the cause of their unhappiness. If that had been removed perhaps they could be happy again. I've quit various companies because of the culture from the top. Once the top changed the culture changed.

[C-141Starlifter]

Rat,

I concur with your statement. I took a leave of absence due to this. My reason has left the company. (It was a clash of nationalities!) I hope to return at the beginning of the next Summer season.

[737 Jockey]

Parc Aviation are currently recruiting on behalf of Air Contractors to fly Ryanair routes out of DUB. But there's no shortage :}

[Push to talk]

I have never regretted leaving Ryanair for a second. And never missed Ryanair since I left. I still know many people in Ryanair of which most want to get out. None have come across anyone who got hired back. And lets face it, you have to be totally desperate or completely miserable and insane if you go back to this bunch. Nothing ever got better in Ryanair, so why go back? I did hear of people receiving a phone call from Dublin asking if they wanted to come back, but all I know or heard of said big fat no. So would I. I think I might honestly rather get out of aviation than fly again for this bunch.

And in context with 'The grass isn't always greener'; well, there seems to be more actual grass outside Ryanair, with Dublin in this case being more of a desert than for example the Middle East. ;)

[Aluminium shuffler]

I know many that have left over the last few years, and without exception they are extremely glad they did. I have not heard of a single person wanting to come back. While it is possible the exist, they'd be few and far between. The company have always made it clear that if you leave, it's for good, but I have been told by one or two old hands that exceptions are sometimes made, and the manner of the dismount is crucial. There's nothing unusual in that - many companies won't rehire resignees for the reasons already given. But don't believe for a minute that there are queues of them trying to return.

[kungfu panda]

The thing is leaving an Airline is highly contagious because of the competitive nature of Pilots. 10% can grow rapidly to 30%. If it's trainers and experienced pilots are leaving this can cause a major Problem. I know one Airline that went out of business in the 90's exactly for this reason.

[LoCo Commotion]

If it is true that some pilots who have left Ryanair want to rejoin - what are the reasons for wanting to return? Where did they go that was worse to think that the greener grass is back at Ryanair?

[TypeIV]

Some of the ones who went to SAS are trying to come back.

[Callsign Kilo]

Over the years, I can count in one hand the number of people who have returned to FR for a second bout. I will add that three of the aforementioned left again, obviously having enjoyed the experience so much on the first occasion! All of those were Captains, two decided to go back to the RHS long haul jobs that they had initially left for.

I am aware of one ex-skipper in the ME who would come back, however only if all roads home became exhausted. Remember, there appears to be the increasing likelihood of former FR skippers who have migrated east being hired back west as DECs at Norwegian.

With a new Director of Flight Ops, the policy for returnees may change; especially relating to command ready FOs. It all depends how many bites of the carrot that they get I suppose?

[FANS]

The vast majority join RYR as a result of limited/no choice, i.e. newbies and no one can blame them.

[captplaystation]

A colleague has told me that one of his closest mates is hesitating between taking his Command (which is being offered on a take-it-or-leave- it Ryanair contract . . .no option to continue as a Contractor) or leave to join NAS.

His expected total net monthly will be 4200€, I am assured this is accurate.

This being the case, and given that a Base Change to the ends of the earth is a foregone, I struggle to understand his hesitation.

[DooblerChina]

€4200 = £3500 That's a junior FO's take home in my lot, it's amazing he is even considering the option. Shocking.

[BluSdUp]

Type4
Some sas new pilots are trying to get back to RYR, shurely, smoking dope is not legal in Sas, or in Ryr .

Btv. Not much standby lately as I have heared in Ryr, wetlease, is also a thing.
Summer getting hot.

[TypeIV]

Blusdup, €2350 net, 2 weeks of layovers in rural scandinavian towns, company making huge losses and 15 years to command with practically no payrise... I can understand if they would rather go back and be upgraded within a year and live by the Mediterranean on a 5/4 and later join nas as a DEC.

Considering the way the terms and conditions have gone lately, even ryr is turning out to be a reasonable gig if you have an upcoming upgrade.

[kungfu panda]

Somebody please explain to me:

If salaries in Europe are so poor why are you guys not doing commuting jobs in China?

I understand the medical issues but if you are a captain with reasonable experience under 40, the medical really should not be a problem for the majority. Simulator checking can be a problem as the Chinese have their own ideas but you can familiarize yourself with that, maybe have a go two or 3 times.

If you really need to be at home then negotiate with the Chinese agencies, you could probably work 1 week a month for 5000 euro's.

It is all certified tax paid at a rate of 40%. Leaves roughly nothing to pay in the UK.

[TypeIV]

Kungfu Panda, cash is not everything in life mate :ok:

[kungfu panda]

Yes, well said. Spend 100,000 euro plus On your training then fly for free and fail to support your family. Very noble.

[Birdstrike737]

"If this is genuine, I'll remove my previous post and submit my sincere apologies for having been completely wrong."

Check out the GTDaviation website and maybe hire a speechwriter for that big apology speech.

[kungfu panda]

Those are totally ridiculous accusations Rex, I don't try to impose anything. The original post was a question of why wouldn't you take the better money with more time at home and quality of life that does not involve the serious permanent fatigue that Ryanair involves.

It baffles me that's all, not on any high horse or trying impose anything.

[PigeonVoyageur]

Since last time, I've been following the news on the site and was waiting for the beginning of this month since this was the target date. No need to hire a speechwriter for this simple thing.

Since it looks like a genuine endeavour, I submit my sincere apologies towards the originators of this endeavour and to all Ryanair pilots. And as stated, I'm removing my disagreeable post.

As I stated in a later post, I'm all for any idea which can bring better T&C for Ryanair pilots and I wish them all success.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Hi guys, sorry the thread regarding Ryanair base placement has gone so just wanted to ask what basis are most popular outside the UK and Ireland. Is it hard to get a base on one of the Canary Islands or Majorca etc.? Or do people prefer busy central European bases?? Thanks guys.

[Global_Global]

Reading the thread I would think that the non Ryanair bases are the most popular... :D

[Aluminium shuffler]

Panda, the costs of training and qualification in the EU are going to be a constant, whether you subsequently fly there or go to the far east, so that has no bearing on the matter. Further more, you bring up P2F. While I find the idea abhorrent and have disdain for those who do it (airlines and pilots alike), those pilots who feel they need to go that route are not going to be eligible for the far east jobs either, so again, your argument is flawed, especially by the fact that it's not RYR but EZY who do it. Finally, there are many, many people who are flying from a base near their family home on stable roster with plenty of family time. The money they earn is only a little less than the Chinese contracts and a lot more than most other contract jobs without the issues of crazy medicals, living away from family for extended periods, working in racist companies and living in a crap hole. So yes, a lot of the guys will work for an employer they hate because it is better for their family.

Some of the newest people in EU companies have problems with basings, but they are at least on the right continent and able to position for free. Your "run away to the far east" agenda is a preposterous idea to all but the most disaffected. Your arguments are entirely illogical and your lack of knowledge astounding for someone so opinionated.

[ROSCO328]

I would rather work in a supermarket than move to China. What is the point of having a family if you become a stranger?. Thread drift sorry.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Any Ryanair guys can shed some light on my above question re bases can you pm me, sick of hearing of anti Ryanair crap, I just wanted some information!! Thanks guys

[captplaystation]

If you don't want to hear "anti Ryanair cr@p" I would suggest asking the Q on REPA/RPG. . . but , I guess there is a slight danger you might find anti Ryanair cr@p there too.

But, you sound like a happy little camper, so, I am sure the caring personnel Dept will be only too happy to take the time to personally answer your query in detail, and in due course make every effort so that you may be allocated your base of choice in a timely manner, thereby ensuring your lifestyle & welfare meet the high standards enjoyed by so many of your colleagues. :hmm:

[speed_alive_rotate]

Thanks captplaystation, I am indeed a happy little camper, was just eager to get some info.

[space pig]

The grapevines say there is no shortage of captains, but oddly enough mcginley is hiring DEC for immidiate start


Direct Entry Captain with McGinley Aviation | 1401391779 (http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401391779/direct-entry-captain/)






as always my own humble opinion ofcourse

[Aluminium shuffler]

I have heard that the popular bases are in the UK, Ireland, Spain and Italy, the others less so except to locals, so a Canaries base is comparatively easy to get. However, how you play it is up to you. Cynics may suggest you let mgmt know you don't want to go there in order to best secure it - they do seem like to cause as much upset of basing as they can.

Space pig, I think tho only believers of the propaganda are those pushing it! They're now as short of FOs as Capts, both now routinely doing 100/28. There will be no hours left for the winter schedule. I have heard a rumour that they don't have enough TREs to run the command and cadet courses. I'd be interested to know it that's true.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Thanks so much for the advice Aluminium shuffler, really appreciate your advice and input.

[kungfu panda]

Aluminium shuffler... I apologise for having an opinion, I'll try not to let it happen again..:(

[Aluminium shuffler]

You're entitled to an opinion. You're just not entitle to insult everyone who disagrees with your illinformed opinion.

[kungfu panda]

AS- Please may I disagree with you on one aspect? I'm not ill-informed, I have operated:

Longhaul, shorthaul, passengers, Cargo.
Worked for operators in Europe (LCC and Legacy), U.S., Middle east and finally Asia.

I have flown cold weather ops in Europe, LVP ops in Europe.
High altitude ops to Quito in Equador with heavy jet Aircraft.
worked in meters and feet in Russia in temperatures below -40

I am a Captain currently operating for a major Chinese Airline.

You may not like my views or indeed the way I express them, but I'm not ill-informed.

[McNulty]

Speed alive:

The popular bases are certainly Ireland and the UK (home bases for a large amount of pilots) aswell as the German/Dutch/Belgian bases (again home bases for alot of people). Also the sunnier places such as Malaga and Faro are popular. Think the canaries bases are somewhere in the middle due to their remoteness.

The less popular bases would be the eastern european and morroccan aswell as the far flung Italian and Greek and maybe some of the Spanish bases also.

However, unless perhaps you're coming as a DEC on the condition of getting a certain base, the whole thing generally tends to be a lottery - and unfortunately I would have to say that the general policy seems to be to NOT give pilots their preferred bases. Some get lucky but it generally takes an unreasonable amount of time to get a requested home base and you can expect to see new joiners get sent to your requested base long after you applied. This is in fact one of if not the biggest reason(s) that people get pissed off and leave.

Of course you could be one of the very few lucky ones who happen to get their base of choice quickly, but it's unlikely.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Fantastic information, thanks McNulty.

[Straighten Up]

Does anyone have a credible (ie not "cos they're all *%#%*") theory for why they wouldn't give you a choice of base where it is commercially/operationally viable?

For all of their (many) faults - and here I speak only as a former consumer and interested CPL studying pilot - in any business a degree of employee satisfaction is desirable. I can't believe they are actively trying to piss their staff off? So what is the business sense in this?

[ManUtd1999]

I know nothing about Ryanair's management, but I would guess at the following:

1) Control
2) Ryanair open, expand and close bases all the time and therefore have to move pilots around accordingly. It doesn't suit them to have everyone happy and settled at their home base and not looking to move. If they put you somewhere you don't want, you won't be too upset when they move you again.

Whether it's worth losing as many pilots as they seem to just to accomplish the above is debatable so maybe there are other reasons, but I can't think of any.

[OhNoCB]

I would say that it's pretty much as above. To keep things fluid, keep people ready to move for when the next base shuts or the next 2 close etc.

There's always the more #$~$# theory which can't be discredited of a divide and conquer element.

[RAT 5]

I had a friend who told the following story. An Irish guy based in Spain and a Spanish guy based in Ireland. They requested a straight swap. Free of charge. No hassle. Refused. they both left. Go figure.
Is it still the same attitude? No idea. Ask an insider.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Rat 5, I saw the same sort of thing first hand repeatedly and know several people still in that situation. It appears deliberate. The question is, is a way of dangling a carrot for a couple of years ("do everything we say and make no waves and we'll base you where you want"), or is it plain malice. Jury's out on that one... What seems to be the norm, though, is to base cadets for their first two years anywhere, then give them the base they wanted. Then, on promotion, send them out again to their least preferred base, even though their preferred, current base is short of Captains, and bring them back another two years down the line, even though that invariably means bringing in other people to the base in question that want to be somewhere else too. And swaps are flatly refused. Hence my suspicion it's being used as a carrot (and stick).

[Al Murdoch]

It seems to me that denial of base transfers is a tactic which results in being seen to "give something" to the pilots when things are becoming tough for the company. In other words, keep something in reserve, at zero cost to the company, but enormous personal cost to "employees".
From Wikipedia:
"Stockholm syndrome is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness."

[McNulty]

I'd kinda disagree that they give FO's their preferred base after 2 years. I was an FO for 3.5 years and never got my desired base, despite countless, and i do mean countless, cadets getting based there in that time. And probably the majority of those did not even want to be based there. Anyway....one of the things they seem to dislike is FO's not wanting to do their upgrade because they are settled and comfortable in their home base.

However, I do find its possible to move base after a year or so in your current base - just NOT to a base in your home country. So if you're a single guy looking to experience living in a couple of different European countries like I was/did/am still doing it's not all bad. If you're a married guy with kids commuting home on your days off and forever trying unsuccessfully to get a transfer to your home base, it absolutely sucks.

Sigh.

Welcome to the mad house.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I had never heard of an airline where most FOs were actively avoiding promotion - most companies have quite the opposite. But to have to introduce a policy of getting rid of those who didn't try for promotion within five years is a new one, and quite telling.

[fa2fi]

Working for another LCC it is exactly the same with bases. Although we have a transfer list, I've watched cadets get jobs at my local base (which I very much doubt they want to be at) whilst I'm stuck on the other side of the country. Still, why p-ss off one person when you can p-ss off two? I do wonder why they do this, but still we have a defined transfer process at least.

[doniedarko]

Just to nip this 'thread drift' in the bud . The lastest rumour is that there are 200 pilots at anytime working their notice in RYR . It has been like this throughout the winter. If this is true then the number leaving/left is way more than 300.
Interesting article in an Irish paper today
Ryanair ?unable? to attract tech talent it needs | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/ryanair-lsquounablersquo-to-attract-tech-talent-it-needs-268495.html)

Basically RYR can't seen to attract IT people despite offering 'attractive packages' ( RYR's words) ......
They still don't get it ......crap T &C's .....mean no staff . I wonder how long the shareholders will tolerate the ostrich like attitude of RYR to staff costs ...

[Aluminium shuffler]

RYR tried to make the IT department like Google - slides from floor to floor, XBox arcades, oversize chess boards and so on. That explains why most of the crew room IT is so unreliable; they're too busy playing games to get essential flight planning computers and printers to work correctly.

[speed_alive_rotate]

The Irish Government yesterday announced measures to overhaul non-union worker rights laws.


"Workers are to be given a new way to ensure they get a fair deal from their employer, even if their employer does not recognise trade unions.
The government has announced plans to revamp the laws on industrial relations so that non-unionised workers can go to the Labour Court.
The Court will then be able to issue rulings on employers, even if they refuse to recognise trade unions or allow collective bargaining."


I wonder will this make even the slightest difference in the aviation industry.

[doniedarko]

Ryanair has axed 222 routes for this summer - Tourism News | Travel & Tourism Industry News | The Irish Times - Wed, May 14, 2014 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-has-axed-222-routes-for-this-summer-1.1793732)

"So if the staff leave we will just cancel lots of routes and for God's sake make sure the shareholders and media don't figure it out ":ugh:. It worked for the Olympics in 2012 !!!...allegedly

[Callsign Kilo]

What seems to be the norm, though, is to base cadets for their first two years anywhere, then give them the base they wanted. Then, on promotion, send them out again to their least preferred base, even though their preferred, current base is short of Captains, and bring them back another two years down the line, even though that invariably means bringing in other people to the base in question that want to be somewhere else too. And swaps are flatly refused.

I certainly agree with the above, however its not a universally applied policy; but very common to many a pilot's experience. As the summer season is now underway it seems pretty apparent that the 'exodus' is biting hard. So if the above synopsis is an actual policy, then it needs to change. The mindset of the average pilot in FR is not to stay. It's 'get the hours and get out.' This applies to a lot of the guys in the company 5 years or less. There is definitely a culture in the right seat that is adverse to promotion. I don't need to list the reasons as to why, it's no secret. It's a shame really, because there's quite a lot of talent there.

This of course may not be the policy or indeed may not actually be happening? Bad rumours and all that goes with them :-)

[WX Man]

Any chance that they will start looking more favourably at guys with >250h and over 30 years old any time soon?

If they are looking for some kind of stability in their workforce, or people who they could fast-track to command, then this would be the obvious thing to do. But then again, the last I heard (and I heard it on VERY good authority) was that this approach is contrary to their business plan.

[kungfu panda]

WX man- I totally support you. The sad fact is that even on these threads, the idea that you should replace experience with MPL courses and a couple of good sim's is being so strongly propogated by the vested interests that it is very hard to fight against. It is a foolhardy and unsafe way to go but this is where we are.

As a youngster it is clear the only path is an MPL then go to virtual aviation, practice a little in the sim. Then you can con people into believing you are talented, "bobs your uncle" you'll be a 22 year old Captain with 2500 hours. you'll be Considered ahead of guys with 25 years experience and a consistent record of passing Sim. checks.

It's very unfortunate and very unsafe but the reliability of modern Aircraft allow those vested interests to get away with this situation over a long term.

[kungfu panda]

Sorry JS but in my view it is unsafe, so I will just have to accept that you'll disagree with me. The reliability of these aircraft lulls foolhardy managements into believing that this philosophy is safe. It is not.

Maybe I'll get fed up with fighting the losing corner but for the time being, if you are going to read these threads, then there'll be me banging on.

The thing that really got me was Bealzebub saying effectively that the simulator is everything, that to me Flying in China rings of being very foolish.
In China every simulator you go to you are observed by keen Young first officers, your 4 hour session finishes after 2 hours and the Young first officers jump in and take the rest of the period to practice. Strangely enough these first officers are excellent, they can fly the sim so much better than the foreign Captains. You are fooled into believing these guys have ability and when you fly with them and give them a Landing you are entirely confident that they are safe. Then you realise as the aicraft passes 100' and descends rapidly towards the grass at an awkward crab angle that your initial judgment was wrong.

I am not saying that this happens in Europe but you have to be very careful of judging the real ability of inexperienced people.

[16024]

Nicely put, KP.
To be honest I can see both sides of this, but having been round the block a few times, I can draw on a few experiences where a sharp, clever, well trained but newish FO has turned into a passenger when the s**t hits.
William Langewiesche's excellent "Fly by Wire" is a good read in relation to modern automation, training and the phenomenon of "Making it look too easy" which is engendered in part by having such reliable aircraft.
There's no easy way, and no magic bullet, but it's why there will be at least some passengers willing to pay more to ride with the airlines prepared to do it the hard (expensive) way.

[captplaystation]

kungfu panda,

the truth is somewhere between. I remember well an ex-colleague in a certain well known loco, who knew the manuals back to front, could recite SOP's to the nth degree with metronomic precision, & could perform an immaculate "double brief" /"circle to land procedure".

This is well & good, but if you asked him to perform a visual circuit/approach, with no use of his tried & tested "circle to land" procedure (which in any case usually resulted in turning final far too high. . .& then the REAL fun began !) his ineptitude beggared belief . . .and he was approaching Command. He became one of the youngest Capts in the Company, one of the youngest LTC's, one of the youngest TRE's, and eventually joined a "well known Middle East long haul carrier during the brief period they were accepting TRE's.

I would wager that even now if you put him downwind at some airport somewhere, & asked him to do a visual without any of his "toys", he would still be out of his depth.

As you say, lack of experience, and just as importantly, a very common culture, all too prevalent these days, that getting the job done using SOP's & automatics is all that matters. There is very little encouragement/incentive it seems for people to expand their skill set, indeed, things like visuals are considered risky from an OFDM point of view & avoided by a large percentage of drivers, particularly the 250hr Cadets, who have been indoctrinated since their early line training to do it the automated robotic way.

Sad, but Oh too true, SOP monkeys are too common, as they find out if their intended next company gives a Sim assessment based on basic handling.

[Al Murdoch]

There's no easy way, and no magic bullet, but it's why there will be at least some passengers willing to pay more to ride with the airlines prepared to do it the hard (expensive) way.

Which ones are those then?

[RAT 5]

To keep claiming that it is "unsafe" to put cadets in an airliner, despite the evidence to the contrary, just makes you appear like a bitter idiot.

The statistics prove this to be correct. However, that has also been true of many events in various industries. Then one day the manure hits the air conditioning; the boss is away from the job = incapacitated, and the juniors, trained though they might be, have to carry on and sort it out. Things go from bad to worse and people start asking questions; such as "how could this happen, how could this be allowed to happen." etc. etc. To date this has not yet hit the front pages; oh wait. AF 447. And I am in no doubt that many other near miss are under the carpet. Luck should not be the guiding factor here. Proactive prevention is the name of our game. Oh wait. It costs money.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Panda, you do talk nonsense. To claim that hours are the magic bullet to safety issues is incredibly naive, and the insistence that cadets are unsafe is idiotic. I and others have repeatedly said that the majority of the best FOs I have seen are cadets with a couple of years under their belts, and that the "experienced" FOs tend to be worse, especially their airmanship.

It is not hours in a logbook that count, but the aptitude, attitude, quality of training (which is mostly comparable in the EU) and the experience gained by Captains encouraging manual and raw data flying, monitored decision making by FOs and so on. The training department only have hold of FOs for a short time - it's up to captains to bring them up to scratch on the line, and most aren't doing so out of laziness or fear of OFDM. But cadets are not intrinsically unsafe.

[Narrow Runway]

"The training department only have hold of FOs for a short time - it's up to captains to bring them up to scratch on the line, and most aren't doing so out of laziness or fear of OFDM."

What?

It has never, ever said in any contract that I've signed that I'm employed as a line captain to do what you state above.

Where do you get such naive thinking from?

[Aluminium shuffler]

So, you don't think part of your job as a Captain is to help FOs learn and develop their skill set? Narrow minded, more like...

So many Captains these days insist on being SOP monitors and only allowing FOs to fly though the automatics in fair weather, not letting them make any decisions on their own sectors. It's nervous control-freak Captains who are too scared of their jobs that are preventing FOs from growing into capable commanders, and then we end up with a bunch of woolly minded young Captains with no common sense or airmanship who hide behind manuals and make the most outrageous cock-ups when presented with something a little non-standard. If all Captains let FOs of the leash a little more, then the FOs would pick up all sorts of hints and tips and would develop a wide and deep level of operating experience.

[despegue]

Aluminium Shuffler,

VERY well said!

An FO is a Captain in spe, meaning that every flight should be a learning experience, guided by his or her Captain.
Those unwilling to share their knowledge and experience are either too incompetent to be Commander of a Jet or too lazy to be Commander of a Jet.

[seasexsun]

An FO is a Captain in spe, meaning that every flight should be a learning experience, guided by his or her Captain.
Those unwilling to share their knowledge and experience are either too incompetent to be Commander of a Jet or too lazy to be Commander of a Jet.

Go and tell this :mad: to the Southwest Airlines FOs with 6-8000 hours and a previous experience as CRJ or Dash8 captains. An FO is not here to learn, he is here to work efficiently within a team as safe as possible. He needs knowledge and skills.

[RAT 5]

Guys; before this thread runs off the rails. The above quote from SWA is not apples & apples with what is being discussed a couple of posts previously. A cadet F/O is an apprentice. Many don't see it that way, and that is their problem which will restrict their progress and promotion eventually. The 6000hr F/O is either a permanent F/O or unlucky enough to be in a slow promotion airline. Indeed they should be fully cognisant with flying,operating and command thinking. The cadet or low hour F/O is still learning for a few years. It takes many flights to learn how to think and react, or even hopefully, be proactive. That is where the ordinary captain has a professional duty to lead by example and also explain their decisions. It is very sad to hear in an airline that the F/O's just do what they are told, even when PF. Very sad and such a wasted opportunity. It's nothing to do with the formal line training under LTC guidance. We all have a duty to the newbies. It's how we learnt. We didn't suddenly have a brain transplant during the command course. It was a steady progression over time. When I was PF I always asked the F/O's opinion first and either disagreed or not. If the former I explained why and then we proceeded as a crew in agreement. It was often the comment that they wished all captains acted in the same manner.
Indeed in my first airline this was the company culture. Sadly, in the many start-up airlines I've been with since, the culture was not on the front burner; financial survival and SOP's were. With many DEC's and low time F/O's it was a case of get the job done safely and efficiently. Those same airlines have continued to expand so fast that still the daily professional passing of knowledge has not been indued in the captains. Training is a formal role for LTC's. Indeed, it can be argued, and it has on here many times, that the new generation of 3000hr captains may not have that much outside the SOP's to pass on. But surely the passage of knowledge down the ranks is a given?

[captplaystation]

Aluminium Shuffler & RAT5 , I'm on your side of the fence. . . . Narrow Mind, you must be a happy little camper to fly with.

[tonker]

"So, you don't think part of your job as a Captain is to help FOs learn and develop their skill set? Narrow minded, more like...

So many Captains these days insist on being SOP monitors and only allowing FOs to fly though the automatics in fair weather, not letting them make any decisions on their own sectors. It's nervous control-freak Captains who are too scared of their jobs that are preventing FOs from growing into capable commanders, and then we end up with a bunch of woolly minded young Captains with no common sense or airmanship who hide behind manuals and make the most outrageous cock-ups when presented with something a little non-standard. If all Captains let FOs of the leash a little more, then the FOs would pick up all sorts of hints and tips and would develop a wide and deep level of operating experience."

There is a lot of truth in why you say, but as a commander of only two years experience i'll do my best to let the chap next to me progress and experiment as much as i can, but in this day and age i'm just covering my arse at every corner.

Is isn't your sector either. They are both the Captains. He/She is allowing you to operate one of theirs. Not trying to be a picky knob but having been in front of "The board" you have to have these legalities nailed!

Regards

[space pig]

Gentleman,

Fair point of letting the Fo 'mess around' and learn by actually flying the aircraft, but sorry to say, this is how it used to be.


We are focussing all our attention(too much) to have all the parametres correct the moment the yellow bar shows up, instead of the general big picture that this is safe approach to continue, only because a few nutters decided to continue an approach with vref+50 and terrain warnings,because of that we all suffer.

We are not 'nervous control freak captains' as alu-shufler dares to say, but fed up flying into challenging ops with no experience on the right side. Cadets are released on line but far from capable and load up even on a sunny day.

I need a collegue, to support me, not a student, and now my job is on the line I indeed will not allow any more visuals, the Autopilot stays on until 500 ft and if have any doubt(and believe me, or just ask the cabin crew, the number of 'impacts' instead of landings are on the rise) i do the landing.



As usual, my humble opinion

[fireflybob]

space pig, one of the best postings I have read for many a day!

[calypso]

Then one day the manure hits the air conditioning; the boss is away from the job = incapacitated, and the juniors, trained though they might be, have to carry on and sort it out. Things go from bad to worse and people start asking questions; such as "how could this happen, how could this be allowed to happen." etc. etc. To date this has not yet hit the front pages; oh wait. AF 447. And I am in no doubt that many other near miss are under the carpet. Luck should not be the guiding factor here. Proactive prevention is the name of our game. Oh wait. It costs money.

Bang on! vested interests are pushing their agenda here and the reliability of the equipment is giving them cover. Just follow the money, some people are making millions out this only hire cadets fad. One day people will ask why this was allowed to happen.

[RAT 5]

space pig, one of the best postings I have read for many a day!

Can't quite agree. It is easy to counter a generalism, as is the topic of this discussion, by quoting rather extreme scenarios and situations. While I commiserate with the changes in the working environment up front I make the comment that we need to keep it to apples & apples. There will always be times & places where the captain needs to be 'the boss' and others where they can be more mentoral. Deciding which is appropriate is perhaps part of captainship.

[Narrow Runway]

Not at all. Carry on with your rants about what individuals must be like to fly with.

I take offence to the bracketing of captains being afraid of OFDM or too lazy for some reason. Don't tar "most captains" with that brush.

The facts are there has been a huge increase in the numbers of commercial aviators in the last 20 years.

Combine that bulge with lower experience levels for entry jobs, or command in many companies and you have the beginnings of the recipe. Add to it, a recruitment system based on ability to pay and not actual ability at all......

It's rather like the FMS: rubbish in gives you rubbish out.

It shouldn't be about whipping people into shape. They should already be the right shape to begin with. Right back to initial training and selection, standards have dropped significantly.

[McNulty]

We are not 'nervous control freak captains' as alu-shufler dares to say, but fed up flying into challenging ops with no experience on the right side. Cadets are released on line but far from capable and load up even on a sunny day.

I need a collegue, to support me, not a student, and now my job is on the line I indeed will not allow any more visuals, the Autopilot stays on until 500 ft and if have any doubt(and believe me, or just ask the cabin crew, the number of 'impacts' instead of landings are on the rise) i do the landing.

No visuals? Autopilot to 500 feet?....sorry but you do sound like a nervous control freak. I let my FO's fly the aircraft, and even when they start making mistakes I try to let it go as long as possible in the hope they'll see the mistake themselves and make the appropriate corrections. This way they can learn from their mistakes....alot more so than if they have some over-bearing stressed out control freak in the left seat using them as voice operated auto pilots.

The best thing about becoming a captain was no longer having to fly with totalitarian despots in the left seat anymore.

[speed_alive_rotate]

I just pray when I commence my commercial flying that I am sitting next to McNulty, and others of the same opinion. The examples McNulty gives of letting FOs try to find their own mistakes etc. and generally helping them progress as a better pilot is surely the way to go. In all industries, do you guys expect new graduates to just walk in the first day and know everything inside out!! Just my opinion.

[space pig]

As is often the case, posts are easily misread

I started my previous post by stating that letting the Fo learn by doing and making mistakes is a good thing, however,

Times have changed.


Now i have been relying on my sound judgement for more then 3 decades in aviation and will not continue an approach if i even remotely consider it to be unsafe.
My point is that we are forced to focus all our attention on one point only, the 500 ft gate, that split second, where all has to be just right, instead of relying on the big picture and deciding it is safe to continue.

Even worse, if it is off by even a knot, i will be demoted,or sacked.

For most of my 2 decades as captain and instructor i have let my collegues'mess around' like i have been allowed during my time as a Fo.

But i was not under the threat of loosing my job.

So the AP stays on till 500 ft and no visuals, because i refuse to take the brunt for the huge influx of cadets that are learning to fly on the line on the expense of myself and the fare paying passengers.

Same reason that i have to write 'just my humble opinion' under every post....

So the above was just my humble opinion...

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Interesting article in the Mail On Sunday with MOL and his "softening" of attitude towards SLF. Not one mention of his appreciation of his Staff.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Tonka, you show signs of the same attitude as the more benevolent and helpful captains who have commented here. It would be reckless to allow FOs completely "off-leash" - the captain is always responsible and no-one is suggesting we don't supervise them and help out when they reach their personal boundaries, except Narrow anyway. As a new captain, your limits and your confidence have yet to reach their potential, and you are still learning the skill of assessing your FOs' limits and predicting their errors, so are wise to be a little more restrictive with them than the experienced captains, but you still see the benefits of letting them handle progessively harder situations with less and less guidance to help them develop their command skills. Good for you.

Line training of cadets is just to a minimum standard that they should be of help, not a liability. It's like getting your driving licence - it's a licence to learn. The only place that FOs gain useful experience is on the line; simulator exercises are great for learning basic profiles and some stick and rudder basics, but they are far too limited to teach airmanship or handling skills in bad weather. They can only learn that on the line, and only with captains willing to help them in that learning. I learnt far more from line shags than trainers, and I endeavour to pass on as much of that knowledge, acquired over generations, as I can. I would hope to see all captains do so, but sadly this is not the case, as demonstrated here.

[Narrow Runway]

Aluminium Shuffler,

I have no idea where you think you are going with your petty sniping.

Do you feel inadequate somehow?

I don't live in fear of OFDM, or of an FO making an error. Experience teaches you that.

Let the trainers do the training, let the line run itself. Or, you can rewrite the book if you like.

[captplaystation]

Gentlemen,

The two immediately above me . . . . you both have a (very valid) point, and I totally understand the need to "cover your @ss" BTW, when you are dealing with :mad: as managers (my Humble opinion M'Lud) , so , apologies Narrow for my previous.

At the end of the day, in the "good old days" we could all set our personal "comfort zone" based on the likelihood of being annihilated by some kid failing to fly the Bugger. Now however, dismissal is a more prevalent threat, so the learning/teaching is being screwed (along with pretty much every aspect of our profession) by edicts from those who know naff all about our profession.

[McNulty]

To keep claiming that it is "unsafe" to put cadets in an airliner, despite the evidence to the contrary, just makes you appear like a bitter idiot.

The statistics prove this to be correct. However, that has also been true of many events in various industries. Then one day the manure hits the air conditioning; the boss is away from the job = incapacitated, and the juniors, trained though they might be, have to carry on and sort it out. Things go from bad to worse and people start asking questions; such as "how could this happen, how could this be allowed to happen." etc. etc. To date this has not yet hit the front pages; oh wait. AF 447. And I am in no doubt that many other near miss are under the carpet. Luck should not be the guiding factor here. Proactive prevention is the name of our game. Oh wait. It costs money.

An interesting point, and to put it in perspective lets have a look at the actual hours of the AF 447 crew:

There were three pilots in the aircrew:

-The captain, 58-year-old Marc Dubois (PNF-Pilot Not Flying)[15] had joined Air France (that was still Air Inter) in February 1988 and had 10,988 flying hours, of which 6,258 as captain, including 1,700 hours on the Airbus A330; had carried out sixteen rotations in the South America sector since he arrived in the A330/A340 division in 2007.

-The first officer, co-pilot in left seat, 37-year-old David Robert (PNF-Pilot Not Flying) had joined Air France in July 1998 and had 6,547 flying hours, of which 4,479 hours on the Airbus A330; had carried out thirty-nine rotations in the South America sector since he arrived in the A330/A340 division in 2002.

-The first officer, co-pilot in right seat, 32-year-old Pierre-Cédric Bonin (PF-Pilot Flying) had joined Air France in October 2003 and had 2,936 flight hours, of which 807 hours on the Airbus A330; had carried out five rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2008.

So whilst the 11000 hour pilot was out of the cockpit, the 6500 & 3000 hour co-pilots assumed control of the aircraft. I believe a crew consisting of 6500 & 3000 hours would be considered highly experienced in some companies. I wonder how the headlines would go, if say the captain had 3000 hours and the co pilot had 300 hours....would make for very interesting reading indeed I would imagine.

[kungfu panda]

Mcnulty - of course you can use statistics to justify ultra low experience crews to operate jet aircraft. The levels of total crew experience which we are now looking at are untried. We now just hope that state of the art aircraft will protect these crews and passengers.

[McNulty]

I'm not using statistics to justify ultra low experience crews....quite the opposite in fact.

If there was ever an accident involving an ultra low experience crew, the media :mad: storm would be so intense that it would force the law makers to amend crew experience requirements over night. See the FAA raising the minimums for FO's to 1500 hours on the back of the Colgan air crash for reference.

[flash8]

I have flown with Captains with 20K TT and those with 3K TT and often the guys on the lower end are much more on the ball.

Equating TT/experience with ability is a recipe for disaster, when the ":mad: hits the fan" is the only time in our glass/radar cosseted environment the men are separated from the boys.

[kungfu panda]

You're trying to wind us up now aren't you Flash8.

It is well recognized isn't it that 25 year old drivers are so much safer and on the ball than 50 year old drivers.:ugh:

[737 Jockey]

Captplaystation... On the money as always!:ok:

In my humble opinion of course! :}

[Narrow Runway]

No need for apology, but gratefully accepted. Thank You.

We all have differing thoughts and methods of putting them across.

Personally, having flown charter, long haul scheduled, low cost european and VIP private ops I can honestly say that all have been different - with different pressures from managers and even owners.

I completely agree that all good captains would allow FO's to thrive and develop. This is, of course, limited by a number of factors - not least FO ability, captain ability and the confidence displayed by both of them.

I have never really understood the OFDM problem. Surely, by acting professionally and aiming to stay a step ahead of the game ensures that OFDM doesn't become an issue.

I always try and stay a little bit "grandpa" in my approaches. I don't have too many grey hairs yet either :ok:

[LNIDA]

TT or T on type boils down to experience, the problem is that for some 10 years is no more than 10 x 1 year !

What experience should teach us is the same thing (most of) us learnt as kids if it hurts don't do it again, of course there is limit to the trial and error approach of learning whilst flying.

I personally think route experience is far more relevant when dealing with the threats say from the non radar environment of the Greek Islands on a busy night with TS activity

[despegue]

Any Professional airline uses the FDM to monitor trends and to inform crews of a potential dangerous situation on one of their flights in order to train, inform and remedy, NOT TO PUNISH.( unless there is intentional endangering of the crew and aircraft by major breaches of SOP and aircraft limitations)

As a result, in any Professional Airline, no crew is afraid of the FDM, which is there to help discover potentially dangerous trends, not to kick you in the a$$.

Any airline that uses FDM to fine. Punish or fire is an airline that should not have an AOC in any developed country.

[Jetdriver]

Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?
Back on track please. There are other threads dealing with crew experience issues involving all the same contributors.

[TypeIV]

Ryanair claims there is no shortage or no one leaving but how comes they are even considering DEFOs? and people are being rostered to fly 70 hours in June, during the first two weeks of the month... that is. :}

[Pablo_Diablo]

Jetdriver reckon it has to be more now considering the ad´s lately, hear some fly max already more or less so they are really short.

Didn´t believe the ad also initially. Had to take off my yellow/ green Rayban´s and turn down the volume on Sean Paul on the stereo and have another look.

Still same thing. DEFO, DEC even non-rated, cadets, the whole nine yards.

[Aluminium shuffler]

There are a lot of people being asked to fly on days off. There doesn't seem to be too much pressure to accept, though.

[polax52]

With no career structure there will always be a high attrition rate at Ryanair. That rate will go up and down with the demands of the market but when it gets high the contagious effect can make it crippling.

There isn't any Pilot shortage but when Pilots leave faster than they can be replaced the effects are much worse than prolonged strike action.

[WX Man]

Trying to ignore the safety/experience debate, I reiterate my last question:

- does anyone think there will be a change of policy in RYR, so that experienced non-TR'd F/Os will be taken on?

If I get to age 40 and I'm still flying TP's, I'm going to jack in flying.

[Globally Challenged]

They are now advertising direct entry PIC and FO both rated & non-rated on a variety of contracts. So I would say there is a chance.

[space pig]

Turboprop? forget it no chance.
The smallest jet of which they have hired DEC from in the past was a BA146 and that was years ago.


The fact that they now mention 20000 kg as the bottom limit means a lot




What they fail to understand is that it is much cheaper to keep the good crew you have than to find new ones( and typerated B737 NG guys are not on the market with so many companies hiring)


If they would start giving people the base they want instead of sending you were you dont want that would keep a a lot of captains in the company.
Not being with your family is a big thing.

As always my humblest of opinions the above

[WX Man]

Yes, just seen that ad.

And as you said: looks like it- Turboprop: no chance.

If I could go back to my 23 year old self, I'd tell him to save his £48,000 that he spent on a modular course and go and buy a house. Do it up, sell it on. Repeat.

I'd own- and fly- my own Global Express by now.

[Callsign Kilo]

Ha ha, WX Man. I thought the advice to your 23 year old self was sound. Then you said you buy and fly your own aeroplane with the proceeds!!

[RAT 5]

We have been doing 100 a month throughout the winter and last summer and you do not need to be a mathematician to figure out that a huge part of the captains will be running out of Yearly limits soon and the whole machine comes to a grinding halt.

Does RYR still have this dubious mathematical shenanigan that allows them to zero hours at 1 April? That was an inexplicable IAA allowance that meant one could do well over 900hrs in a 12 month period. Under EASA is that still possible? Absurd if so.

[Aluminium shuffler]

That zeroing of annual flight hours is now EUOps and replaced the JAROps 900 in 365, so applies across all of Europe, as I understand it.

First Officers are also doing 100 hours per 28 days now, as of the last couple of months, so it won't just be Captains they'll run out of in the winter.

[JeroenC]

Space Pig, you better read that memo again. You're afraid of something which isn't true.

[RAT 5]

A.S. I'm out of it now, but are you saying it is now legal to fly >900hrs in 365? Ouch! Short haul that is.

[Aluminium shuffler]

According to the IAA inspector I had a chat with, yes Rat, as long as the total drops below 900 on the one nominated day of the year, the rest of the time you can have significantly over 900. I'm regularly seeing 920-930/365, and boy am I feeling it!

[RAT 5]

Is this a case of RYR not only having changed the flying experience for the pax; not only having changed the general T's & C's for the air crew, but now effected a change, for the worse, in the FTL's of the whole of EU? If true, truly amazing. Or is this just an IAA interpretation of EASA regs? They too seem very malleable when needed.
The tail may truly be wagging the dog. The decline in overall T's & C's, including a severe worsening in average working days over the past 20 years, is scary to behold. Where will it end? Ever more productivity and destroyed family life for less reward. It has often been countered with the argument that the big bucks allowed a disruptive life with no solid social foundation and regular sleep patterns. Not any more. The big bucks have disappeared and the shackles have become tighter. To predict the future is always difficult, but it doesn't look too rosy for the vast majority of wannabes. Good luck to them, and save up for the alimony instead of the pension.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Yep, my son likes aircraft and loved his flying lesson, but knows full well not to even consider this as a career! It does make me smile reading some of the issues on the legacy airline threads, but it's all relative. I suspect there are plenty of folk in Asian or even in EU regional companies that would gladly take my Ts and Cs as a big step up from what they contend with. That doesn't make it right - it just means the whole industry is eating itself from the inside.

[space pig]

According to the latest ad in flightglobal,: DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAINS AND FIRST OFFICERS with Ryanair Ltd | 1401394597 (http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401394597/direct-entry-captains-and-first-officers/?LinkSource=PremiumListing)




it looks like Ryanair is starting to take control themselves regarding the recruiting as Mcginley/Brookfield are no longer mentioned but solely Ryanair LTD.
Could it be that the 300 pilots that left are on the low side of the estimates and immidiate action is required as the contracters are not doing a good enough job to recruit ?


Or is this to offer a Ryanair contract with better T and C"s(tax and social sec payed) as a new strategy to attract new pilots.


just my humble opinion for what it's worth

[Jelly Fish]

I'm always baffled by Ryanair pilots agreeing to work days off 'because they need the money', when most of them are maxed out on hours anyway. Or maybe doing unpaid standbys is more fun than days off, I'm not sure.

[kungfu panda]

The reason that Ryanair are recruiting directly is simply that the current use of McGinley and Brookfield is unsustainable it is the exploitation of a loophole that goes against the requirements of the law in most countries, those countries are now wise to the ryanair games.

Secondly they realize that they need Pilots to stay and that working for McGinley is not in anybody's mind a long term career.

I don't think they have seen anything yet, the exodus will be in the coming 2 years. Simply because of a recruitment surge in China and the m.e.

[737 Jockey]

I think we can close this thread now, as the answer is clearly YES!

According to the recruitment banners at the top of this webpage.

It's is both ironic and indeed very sad, that the few (but important) things that made Pilots (including me) move on, were completely within Ryanair managements' ability (?) to fix, at little or no cost. Unfortunately, their unbelievably stupid, arrogant and dictatorial way of running things, has led to this current situation, which sees them now losing money by cancelling flights and wet leasing crews to fly their summer routes, as well as being forced to recruit DEC/DEFO (positive for some) instead of making money from taking more Cadets.

I truly hope that lessons are learnt, and there is some positive outcome for Ryanair Pilots and the industry T&C's as a whole. I wouldn't hold my breath though! :ugh:

All in my own very humble opinion of course. :ok:

[Aluminium shuffler]

Think about it, Jellyfish - an employed captain will get a day off payment of £250net plus the flight pay. They'll do the same hours over the month, and thus the final flight pay will be the same, but they get the day off payments too. For contractors, that doesn't apply, and so the captains tend to refuse. Contract FOs historically would accept because if they didn't come in, they'd lose out on pay and they were only flying c600 hours a year and needed to generate as much extra as possible. That's very different at the moment.

[172_driver]

There's also the possibility of successfully bargain days off when you need them, by working one day off when they need You. That can only be a good sign for pilots. I personally don't do off days, not only am I always busy but I try to see it as an act for a greater good. But despite best effort a big part of the workforce act in their own self interest only, and in many cases I cannot really blame them.

[captplaystation]

This sounds like an employment discussion for a whorehouse, not an airline . . . . . . . in my humble opinion of course.

[Greenlights]

Exactly...in asia there are more job, more remunerated, qol better, girls (hotter), etc...you go there a while, save money, and you're king of petrol.
who, would like to stay in a cold european country, low pay job ?

[kingpost]

I wouldn't agree that the conditions are any better in Asia or the ME, the Ryanair virus has spread throughout the world! There are rumours floating around that some ex Ryanair pilots are leaving EK to go back to Ryanair - that goes to show!

[Greenlights]

I'm afraid so! I agree! I heard the same actually...
But in some airlines, depiste the conditions, you can multiply your income though...sure you fly a lot, but the objectives to aim are: work a lot, save money (you can save more in asia) and stop working and retire sooner.

EK is not the Eldorado, I'm sure, but you can make much money. And in some asian countries you do not spend as much as in europe.
Let's face it, it is not a dream job at all...I even opened a business, to get out of aviation.
But, now, what do we have as motivation ? only one : money.
The rest : good roster, good terms and conds, good management, lot of days off etc, it becomes rare.
Oh, and we got a nice view...but after a while... Personnally I run after money because it is the only motivation i can find now. It is sad I agree, but it is a motivation like any others.

good luck to all :)

[kungfu panda]

I just want to make a statement, here seems as good a place as any to make it:

There is currently no Pilot shortage, at any one time I seem to be trying to help around 10 European Pilots get into my company, some employed and some unemployed, all experienced Captains.

[thatwasclose]

kingpost, it is not a rumour.