Retention of student records

[Solar]

Hi Folks
Not sure if this has been discussed before, can't find any reference.

Would a flying school be justified in holding on to a students records when the student was in considerable debt to them and wished to go elsewhere?

[Mach Jump]

holding on to a students records when the student was in considerable debt to them

Not a lawyer, but if someone was in considerable debt to me, and I had anything of theirs, I would hang on to it until the debt was paid.


MJ:ok:

[3 Point]

The records belong to the school, not to the student!:ok:

[wb9999]

I'm not going to comment on whether it is justified.

Legally, the training records would fall under the Data Protection Act (the school should be registered as a data controller), and if the student requests all data that is stored about them (electronically or in a filing system) then the school would have to disclose all personal data to the student - which will likely cover the training records themselves. The student would have to pay a maximum £10 fee. The school would then have 40 days to comply with the request, otherwise the school can be prosecuted and fined.

[Pace]

Solar

If you are in considerable debt to them and wish to go elsewhere then why are you reluctant to pay that debt?

If its because you are unhappy with the value for money you have had with them or that they have not met up to what what you have expected, then Surely you should negotiate an agreement with them!
If not they will take you to court to recover debt and costs involved unless you can prove due cause for with holding monies owed!

I think you should sort this out before building a new debt with a new club :ok:
i am also surprised that a club would allow you to build a CONSIDERABLE debt?

Pace

[3 Point]

The logbook is not a record of training, even if signed by a CFI certifying all entries are correct. It is simply a record of flights undertaken - not the same thing at all!

3 Point

[Heston]

The school needs to hold on to a student's records, even after they have gone elsewhere or finished their training in case there is subsequently a dispute. Backside covering if you like - but its the only way a school can show that the student received all the training that was required (in say an accident enquiry).


The student is entitled to have access to the records and to be able to take a copy with them.

[Monocock]

Unless I'm mistaken, you've run up a debt with a flying school. They're in it to make money and they have a client who hasn't paid up.

All they have as a 'persuader' to get you to pay are your records. Can you blame them for holding on to them?!!

Sometimes I can't help feel that some people think that training establishments are there as some romantic entity who are obliged to fulfil their flying dreams.

Sorry, but they're there to make money. You chose to train there, you should pay for what you've had.

I apologise in advance if I've completely (along with others) misread your post.

[abgd]

The OP could be the flying school owner, or a disinterested 3rd party.

[Monocock]

Good point. And if that's the case I still stand by my last post.

[Solar]

Lads
A few seem to have got the wrong idea here, unusual for PPrune I know.
I am not in debt to anybody except the missus and two aeroplanes.

I am a member of a club adjacent to the school in question and as well as knowing the owner very well I also use their aircraft time to time.
In the course of conversation about a certain student the owner told me that he was holding on to a students records as he was owed considerable monies and as has been answered by wb9999 and I suspected it may not be legal, justified is one thing.
I would be of the same opinion as Mach Jump in that I would hold on to them as leverage for as long as possible.
When I was involved in a small garage we would occasionally "retain" the keys of suspect payers as a means of getting them to stump up, if I remember correctly at the time a solicitor mate told me that was illegal which is why I posed the question.

[Pace]

Solar

Whoops :{ sorry but that is how it read !
In that situation legal or not I would certainly not hand over the records!
Yes force. The student to take legal action and then explain his debt!
I am not a lawyer but if you have not paid for something it's not yours but do not know if this would refer to records!
My question would be why such a huge debt was allowed to build in the first place and why has the student not paid!
But yes legal or not I think I would accidentally loose all the records for now and let him play his hand

Pace

[mad_jock]

As per say you can never remove records from a school only copy them.

Having struggled to get the records without debts or anything else untoward it can be a bit of a problem from some schools.

The school has to give copys to the caa if they request them. So they can be used but they don`t like it.

But to be honest without knowing what the debt is...

I have had one student who transfered because the school had issues because all the aircraft were off line due star annual issues. They had been on a course and pid and flown two thirds. Then no flying for over a month so wanted to complete school said course was disccounted. So to transfer they would have to pay an extra 10 quid an hour undiscounted rate so 300. I got the records and the student didn`t pay the 300 but it was a pain.

The school is being daft anyway. They should just start a small claims or get them declared bankrupt.

But maybe the reason they don`t is because they are on rocky ground with the debt anyway.

Always wondered if not paying for flying lessons would be in breach of the ANO ppl payment rules.

[Solar]

Cheers Pace

It's a long story and presently there is court case involved so obviously not a lot can be said.

I did ask the owner why he let the debt get so high and basically he was on a bit of a business learning curve as he had only fairly recently started the school.
There is a rogue instructor in the mix as well and involves a student that in his opinion was more capable than he actually demonstrated. Messy to say the least.

[cockney steve]

WRT the Motor Trade, AFAIK, Norn Irn is the same as the mainland.
Any vehicle -repairer has a LIEN on the vehicle, that is, he "owns" it until , either he returns it to the owner OR the debt is settled and the Lien satisfied....`the repairer has a duty to look after the car and cannot use it. A sensible operator will make it clear to the debtor that storage charges will be £x per day...charges reaching the value of the vehicle mean statutory notices in the papers and the vehicle sold for market price...after costs and debt satisfaction, the rest is to be held to the account of the debtor.

In the case of training, It would be prudent to establish just how much of the information is subject to Data protection....the Creditor may get a pleasant surprise and find that most is not protected.

I would advise the debtor to settle or make a satisfactory arrangement, within 10 days of (recorded delivery) letter....(make this package look as though it may be the records and the debtor will quite happily sign for it ;) )
With the threat that, after the allowed time, all personal information will be destroyed.
Unfortunately, the pupil won't care if his intention is to bilk the debtanyway...he'll simply go to another trainer and start again.
I suspect, from your last post, this "training" was, in fact, covert hire,for "jollies"....if he was a genuine student, it looks as though he's wasted the time,if he has to repeat all the lessons again.
Civil court ASAP....prepare the papers and include photocopies with the letter.....he'll know the Trainer means business.....most will fold and pay or arrange to pay, at this point. A CCJ can severely disrupt your life!

[Pace]

Solar

I certainly would not make the records available to this student until an agreement with him is reached ( it's surprising how computers go wrong and documents get lost )
I do not know what grievances he has but without the documentation at least he will be encouraged to the negotiation table and it is always better to settle!
In future dont let debts grow to such an extent.
It's easy to do having been there with a lot of money owed to me flying private jets by a conman operator but we can only learn

Pace

[Solar]

CS
I wasn't aware that the garage "owned" the vehicle as you say but then it was a very long time ago since I was involved and in those days solicitors were only used in your defense or house purchases. In NI we had more direct ways of sorting out debt!!!!!!

Pace
Just to clarify the monies are not owed to me.
My mate who owns the school in question is holding on to the records and the ex student (and he is a student by the way) is taking him to court over a different matter under the advice from the rogue instructor that I mentioned.
The instructor used to work for him but was let go for various reasons so perhaps you can see that it's not just as a straightforward case that my OP intimated.

[Dan the weegie]

If the records are on paper they are absolutely not covered by the data protection act. Strictly speaking they belong to the CAA but the school is under absolutely no obligation to hand the records over unless the courts tell them to other than a moral one, normally it is not an issue but if there is a debt owed the original school should definitely keep a hold of them until they must hand it over.

[wb9999]

If the records are on paper they are absolutely not covered by the data protection act.

Dan, you might want to read http://ico.org.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/~/media/documents/library/Data_Protection/Detailed_specialist_guides/relevant_filing_systems_faqs.ashx.

As a data controller for a company, I know that manual records are covered by the data protection act, if they are in a "relevant filing system" - which is anything where records are filed by name (chronological files are not covered). Flying training records will likely be filed by name, and so will be covered by the Data Protection Act.

If you can go straight to a record for an individual (whether paper or electronic), then that is a "relevant filing system" and the school has to registered with the Information Commissioner's Office.

[Dan the weegie]

But the information needs to be private information( address, dob etc) student records are not, and you still need to be compelled to provide it which you aren't so unless you are legally compelled to do so, you do not have to give it up.

[wb9999]

Dan, no it just needs to be personally identifiable information. If you hold anything that identifies a person (eg name and details of training flights that are unique to a person) then it comes under the Data Protection Act.

Training records are unique to a student and so are classed as personal data, which would have to be disclosed if the student requests it.

[MrAverage]

I agree with you Dan the Weegie. The ICO website has a simple Q and A which says; if you have no records on computer you don't need to register with them. There's still of course a duty of care to keep the info from prying eyes. School/club should keep originals but is required to pass copies to the students new chosen provider.

[wb9999]

I guess you didn't read the link from the ICO that I posted yesterday MrAverage. Manual (ie paper records) are included if you have a file per identifiable person, which is normal for training records. if you just have no filing system or one where files are arranged differently (ie by date) then that is not covered by the Data Protection Act. Subject Access Requests (and the DPA) are still applicable even If you are not registered, or required to be registered, with the ICO.

Registration with the ICO and compliance with the DPA are separate things. Almost every organisation has to comply with the DPA (and Subject Access Requests), but not every organisation has to be registered.

[MrAverage]

I was already fully aware of all of that. I have a completely haphazard filing system (for everything actually) that only I understand!

[cockney steve]

@ Solar In NI we had more direct ways of sorting out debt!!!!!!: :ok: " That's the way to do it" (i always liked Punch and Judy! )
When something is in your custody,for work, you have a lien.....in the case of a motor vehicle (or aircraft) possession is, indeed, 9/10 of the law.
You are entitled to keep possession until the lien is satisfied BUT if you release it to the owner, you lose the right...IF the owner has, for instance, spare keys and takes possession without permission, then it is theft!
I read of a case where a Rolls was repaired and the bill outstanding not sure if the owner died or vanished, statutory notices putin the local paper and (iirc)
the London Gazette....car subsequently sold by Tender.
In the aircraft situation, An aircraft with an outstanding liability, would appear to re-establish the lien if it returns to the creditor-aerodrome......you will have heard of Baillifs sticking a notice on, chaining the prop, parking vehicles to obstruct it, etc.
That's why it's important to do the right pre-buy research.....the debt stays with the plane, not the owner! (an expensive lesson for some!)

As I said, very little leverage with unpaid lessons, the bilking stude can simply redo them...inconvenient, but if they get away with it,many hours practice at the first trainers'expense.

IMO, the records are evidence of services provided...the training school should, as a matter of priority, issue a Plaint through the Court system, for recovery of the debt.
Procedure is, no doubt, different in N.I. to the mainland ( where the plaintiff merely gets a DIY pack (free) from their local County Court, fills in the Plaint, sends it, with the appropriate fee, back to Court....job done! )

I agree that the records could well be "lost" by the training organisation, until the debt is satisfied....but it does sound like your friend has a hard-faced scammer on his hands. he should take the initiative and agressively pursue the debt. (wrt the instructor- conspiracy to defraud?) a word with Plod may help, especially if they have an "interest" in the party/ies concerned. ;)

[Solar]

CS
There is a court case in progress at the moment although not instigated by the school owner although it looks like it will work in his benefit when the full story emerges and will pave the way for him to get his money and costs through the courts.
In the small claims you can only apparently recover the monies owed but not any legal costs and also the debtor can promise to pay a nominal sum per week over a long period which is as good as not paying.
That's the way it operates in NI anyway, the only way to get all your costs is through the high court in which case you need to have a watertight case.
As you will have gathered from previous posts that this is not a simple matter of a student walking away owing money, there is a rogue instructor witht his own perceived axe to grind who is behind the students actions.

[cockney steve]

Same "small claims" procedure as here, then. Costs that are allowable(assuming the Plaintiff wins ;)) are limited....the Plaint fee itself (aka cost of issuing the summons) any postage, phone calls, fares or fuel to chase the debt, loss of earning to attend the hearing and cost to atend . In addition, where appropriate, an expert report is allowable.(up to a designated maximum)

My last case, a car with guaranteed mileage I bought at auction, close examination showed it had been severely "haircut" (clocked) the vendor was another trader. he refused to back down and cancel the deal. he used a solicitor to try and intimidate me into giving up....so I kept hassling, knowing each reply was racking up the bill for him.
Filed the Plaint at my local Court, 5 miles away....he asked for a transferto Halifax,~20 miles, then I had to find the courthouse....Claomed the maximum allowed under small-claims rules at the time. Judge asked why I hadn't claimed my total loss and Iexplained Iwould then have been liable for the defendant's costs if I lost, nothing being a total certainty.......awarded max. plus travelling plus full cost of consulting engineers report which confirmed the car had done far more than the recorded miles......I'd already sold the car at a small profit, came out with another £1200. (1K claimed, plus court cost,plus travelling, loss of 1/2 day's wage, plus the report. plus defendant had his brief to pay and was a marked man by local Trading Standards.
Sounds like your friend has his ducks in a row!

A Civilcase only needs the judge to be 51% in favour of one party(the balance of probability)

A Criminal case has to be proven "beyond all reasonable doubt" The judgement on the current case, if I see things correctly, will have a real influence on any case your friend brings. good luck to him!
edit:- If defendant asks for time to pay, income /assets can be challenged and he will have to proveto Court ,how he can take flying lessons but not afford to pay for them :hmm:

[Solar]

CS
You don't want a job, legal advisor to the uninitiated!!!! Looks like you learned the hard way.

The student in question can well afford to pay, a fact that the rogue instructor is well aware of.
As we say here, the instructor is making the snowballs for the student to throw in court safe in the knowledge that it won't cost him (the instructor) any money.
What the instructor fails to comprehend is that GA aviation is a small world especially in our neck of the woods and he has already burned his bridges at another school on the same airport and his reputation is spreading rapidly. Extremely short sighted to say the least.

[cockney steve]

From that, Iassume the school owner is the defendant in that action....in which case, the judge may well have the power to order the plaintiff (pupil) topay his debt.

I was really pointing out tha the pupil would find it hard to come up with a valid reason to dripfeed the repayment. Idon't think judges like debtors who try to play the system

regarding "a small world"..undoubtedly!....Ihad a customer who I let go with the vehicle...he then avoided me for several weeks so I lost the profit on his fuel....vehicle spotted outside another repairer, whom I phoned and gave the heads up....he impounded the vehicle until he got paid. weeks later, a repeat performance at a third repairer who i'd already warned. bloke was blacklisted by all local garages cash only!...eventually, he moved away...someone else's problem.

Perhaps a third party could bend the Stude's ear and point out that he's being used as a "patsy" by this instructor...Abit of analysis may make him realise thathe's being used.