power on stalls - some help would be lovely!

[localflighteast]

Some background: I'm slowly plodding away at my PPL, enjoying it more than I ever thought possible.

I've got about 10 hours solo, a mixture of in the circuit and solo out to our practice area. I was bout to do my dual the solo X country before winter hit big time, so now my instructor and I are concentrating on bringing my flying up to flight test standards. it's been going really well. We do a set of airwork dual and then the next couple of lessons I go up and do them solo.

All was fine until I hit the power on stalls. I'm in a C172 and we are doing them at about 1600-1700rpm. Just straight and level stalls but we are getting a little bit of a wing drop. A problem , of course that i am making worse.

I cannot seem to stop myself putting aileron input in when recovering. Believe me I know I shouldn't be. I've seen what happens when I do. I think I almost span it once because I was stupid.

I just can't seem to physically stop myself yanking the yoke around.

My instructor thinks that i just need practice. he's done all the usually stuff like making me take my hands of the yoke completely while he stalls the plane and I just use the rudder and throttle to recover. but i just can't physically stop myself when its my turn.

Any suggestions would be great. I've picked up some really good tips about the actual physical inputs from here. My landings became much better when I sorted out my seating position , as did my steep turns. I was just hoping that someone would have a pearl of wisdom for this problem that would make everything click into place.

Thanks in advance

[phiggsbroadband]

If you are getting wing drop on a Cessna, then just be aware that low wing Pipers are three times as bad...


What you need to concentrate on is not letting the nose of the plane move L or R wrt the horizon. Try to keep the nose firmly pinned to a spot on the horizon with the rudder; You will need to do quite a dance to keep it straight, but then the stall will just be a straight forward Mush.


This ensures that your conscious steering effort is directed towards your feet, and not towards your fingers.

[mad_jock]

Try locking your elbows at your side and physically squeezing your elbows into your ribs so you only move your arms forwards and backwards

[glendalegoon]

are you keeping the plane in the stall and trying to correct a wing drop? Or are you recovering from the stall by pushing forward on the yoke and then trying to correct the wing drop?

I think the discussion on wing washout in the book, "stick and rudder" would be helpful.

use of ailerons in modern aircraft and certain stall conditions have long been misunderstood.

[mad_jock]

its more likely that his instructor is gettinghim to hang in a fully developed stall with full flap with him fannying around tap dancing on the rudder pedals.

Anyone from Canada like to comment if this is even in the syllabus?

This practise got banned in Europe years ago. And the FAA are trying to stop it as well.

[localflighteast]

Thanks Jock, I think that exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. I'll give it a try and will ignore the funny looks I'm getting from my office mate as I practice doing that at my desk !!:O

[mad_jock]

What you doing in this stall?

In that configure in Europe the student would just recover on the stall warner sounding so you would never be in the stall and as such its just reduce AOA, power up while cleaning up in stages and pitching to climb attitude.

[localflighteast]

bit of a misunderstanding here.

He is a she for one thing!

Secondly noone is getting me to "hang in a fully developed stall with full flap with him fannying around tap dancing on the rudder pedals."

The plane stalls with some wing drop, as I recover I have a habit of yanking the yoke around to try and correct.

This doesn't help.

I'm trying to stop doing this.

<sigh, I waited almost a day before posting this because I had a suspicion the thread was going to go this way>

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Just push forward with one hand in the middle of the joke.

[localflighteast]

Thank you Lord S-M

Something else to try. These kind of suggestions are probably what I need. Physically I'm not a natural flyer, I have to pay careful attention to what I'm physically doing with my limbs in order to do what I ned to do up there.

For example once I realised that I had a habit of leaning forward in my seat when doing steep turns, I understood that this was what was making me inadvertently push the nose down.

Now I know this I make a conscious effort to relax back in my seat and my steep turns are fine.

[glendalegoon]

localflighttest

I encourage you again to read, "STICK AND RUDDER".

Once you have reduced the angle of attack below the stalling angle of attack the controls work just fine. Ailerons, when the plane is NOT stalled may be used to level the wings.

when you stall, push forward AND NOW YOU ARE NOT STALLED, things work normally now. (and even in modern planes there is something called washout which causes the inboard portion of the wing to stall first, leaving the ailerons functional. Key word modern planes. Early planes had the ailerons stall first, or that portion of the wing)

I agree with madjock that for many years it was taught to dance on the rudder pedals to level the wings while holding the plane in the stall. There is no real good reason to do this.

That your instructor is a she means nothing here. In many aviation texts, the introduction expressly indicates that he actually means he/she.


Now, you MAY be over controlling and somehow entering a secondary stall.


So, once again, at this level of flying. AT first indication of a stall, push forward (usually just a small amount, or even the term, ''relax back pressure" is used) on the control wheel and simultaneously level the wings and add full power. AVOID a secondary stall.

Do ailerons work while in non stalled flight? Yes. Using all controls for coordinated flight is key. Oh, do you use just ailerons in making a turn? No, you should be using coordinated aileron and rudder.

Again, invest in your own copy of "stick and rudder" and many of your concerns will be addressed in what is virtually the bible of airplane control

For example once I realised that I had a habit of leaning forward in my seat when doing steep turns, I understood that this was what was making me inadvertently push the nose down.
regarding leaning forward while in steep turns.

perhaps you are doing this because as you turn in a high wing plane, you were trying to see to ''clear'' the area in the direction of the turn.

[mad_jock]

Just letting go of the yoke will recover it :D

[glendalegoon]

madjock

yes, if the plane is properly in weight and balance cofg and not trimmed into the stall, just letting go should start the recovery.

[Skipname]

For training purpose I always had my students stall the aircraft completely during power on stalls and we always got a wing drop in every aircraft. It's common mistake for the first timers to apply opposite aileron to counteract the wing drop.

What I use to tell them is to hold their elbow tight against their body and use the rudder to pick up the wing while releasing the back pressure and add full power. If they kept doing it after a couple of times I used to hold my hand on the yoke and not let it turn left or right. You can tell your instructor to do the same for you until you get more comfortable with the wing drop and the habit of using the ailerons disappears.

[flying apple]

the way my instructor got rid of this habit with me was to let him stall the aircraft with an intentional wingdrop and let me recover the wingdrop with the rudder
this helped me a lot, after doing that 5-10 times i didn't recover wing drop with ailerons anymore

hope this wil help you aswell

[localflighteast]

Skipname and flying apple

Yes the plane is completely stalled . It has to be as part of the flight test standards and yes you get a wing drop pretty much every time ( usually quite benign but I make the problem worse)

My instructor has done all the usual that you've suggested, including having me take my hands of the yoke completely and just use the rudder. they've held the yoke so that i can't physically turn it but I still yank it around

going to try the squeeze your elbows in thing and maybe even use one hand in the centre of the yoke and see what happens

[Mach Jump]

I cannot seem to stop myself putting aileron input in when recovering. Believe me I know I shouldn't be. I've seen what happens when I do. I think I almost span it once because I was stupid.

I just can't seem to physically stop myself yanking the yoke around.

My instructor thinks that i just need practice.

Hi Localflighteast.

I think your instructor is probably right.

Although you clearly understand that it's reducing the angle of attack (moving the control column forward) that stops the wing dropping, subconsciously you still react to a wing drop with opposite aileron.

Only repetition will train your brain to stop doing this.

Be assured that you are not being 'stupid', nor are you by any means the only one to find this difficult, but I've never taught anyone yet who didn't 'get it' eventually.:ok:

[Big Pistons Forever]

Rushing the recovery is also probably part of the problem. The stall in a C 172 is pretty benign. Break the recovery into three distinct steps and verbalized them as you do them.

Say out load " Step 1 stick forward wheel central", do it then say " Step 2 full power" then do it and then finally " step 3 straight with rudder"

Slowing things down will help you hands keep up with your brain.

[mad_jock]

I am surprised you can it to stall to be honest.

The one I used to fly you would run out of elevator and the airspeed would stop reading you would sort of get 300-400ft per min decent rate and that was it.

[localflighteast]

BPF , you may have a point. I don't like stalls . I may well be rushing the recovery.

At least now I have a plethora of things to try. I did 7 or 8 of the buggers last lesson and still wasn't getting it.

Obviously doing the same thing over and over again wasn't working so I need to try something different.

[mad_jock]

Don't be scared of them. Ask your instructor if you can do a "let go" recovery for :mad: and giggles then you know what happens if you stop annoying the plane

[Pace]

LocalFlightEast

I think you are reverting to your instincts but not in an aircraft but a car. Even though the wing drops to say the right you turn as in a car to the left Ok A Car does not drop a wing :E but i think you are in car mode.
You are still thinking as you would in a car which operates on one plane and not in an aircraft which move up and down as well as left and right.
How many car drivers also move forward peering out of the screen :ok:
The fact is those techniques ar not correct for driving a car.
You maybe are still considering the yoke as a steering wheel and the pedals as the brake, clutch accelerator position.
Try to detach those natural instincts and think of the yoke and pedals in their correct sense

[StuartUK]

Regarding leaning forward in your seat during steep turns, I don't see any problem in that in fact this is how I was taught by my instructors. Leaning forward and getting closer to the windscreen enables you to see what you are flying into when you're flying a high wing.

The best trick that I was taught for steep turns was as soon as you're at the desired bank angle line up a point on the cowling (such as cowling screw or another visible mark) with the horizon and make sure you keep it there for the duration of the turn. Using this method you'll be able to detect even the smallest nose drop and be able to correct it before it becomes a hopeless cause.

[Andy_P]

I have the same problem.

For those who are saying use of aileron is ok, its not if you want to pass the flight test.

FWIW, I had (and still do) have this problem. I am fairly confident that I can recover from any stall condition now, but if you dont do it text book, you dont pass.

What worked for me, is full flap power on stall, but dont use your rudder until the aircraft is fully stalled. You get the wing drop, and it begins to enter a spin. For some reason, it was me focusing on the rudder to stop the rotation that made it all come together.

I really don't understand why they do full flap stall and have you (as mad_jock put it) tap dancing on the rudder. Why not just a full wing drop stall, which is probably what is going to happen in the real world should you actually stall.

And mad_jock, my instructor told me the procedure in AU used to be to just let go and let the plane recover!

[glendalegoon]

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-3of7.pdf


andy p and others. I mentioned the coordinated use of aileron and rudder after reducing angle of attack and adding power. I mentioned washout and how the stall no longer starts at the tip (very oldplanes, circa ww1 may not be included)

here is the FAA document to indicate everything I've said. Now, if there are different concepts in different nations, fine. And if you use just aileron without coordinated use of rudder, you are wrong. BUT, proper use of aileron is just fine. Again, PROPER.

so, read, learn, enjoy. And everything here was basically written in a book called, ''stick and rudder'' some 70 years ago.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The best trick that I was taught for steep turns was as soon as you're at the desired bank angle line up a point on the cowling (such as cowling screw or another visible mark) with the horizon and make sure you keep it there for the duration of the turn. Using this method you'll be able to detect even the smallest nose drop and be able to correct it before it becomes a hopeless cause.

What kind of a steep turn does that give you when you have mountains all around you?

[StuartUK]

An interesting one!

There's not a hell of a lot of mountains in the south of the UK so it hasn't been a problem yet. I will let you know how it goes if I stray into the French Alps or somewhere similar though.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The method you described works just fine in an area with a fairly level horizon StuartUK.

However once you get the picture and the feel and the sound of a good steep turn you can then practice your steep turns with reference to the altimeter to maintain a constant altitude that results in the bang you feel when you hit the wake the airplane made where you stared the turn.

After that gets boring you learn the picture sound and feel all over in the inverted position.

:ok:

[Andy_P]

here is the FAA document to indicate everything I've said. Now, if there are different concepts in different nations, fine. And if you use just aileron without coordinated use of rudder, you are wrong. BUT, proper use of aileron is just fine. Again, PROPER

Not disagreeing with you BTW. Here is the problem though, we are not all in the US. My training so far is once you have unstalled the aircraft, then the use of aileron is fine, just as you suggest.

So here is the issue, they get you to do a stall with full flap. They dont want to see a wing drop, so you are dancing on the rudders to keep the aircraft straight. The problem I had early on was because the plane has a tendency to wing drop with a power on stall, the first thing you try and do is use the aileron to turn the opposite way of the rotation, as opposed to the rudder. This just exacerbates problem, causing the stalled wing to further stall and puts you into a spin (I assume, I have never actually entered a fully developed spin).

Like I said, I don't understand why they do this, because I assume that in a real life scenario if you stall with full flap, then you are probably using both rudder and aileron in a coordinated fashion, and you are probably coming into land, so why not just teach the recovery as such? My instructor is teaching me to recover with minimum altitude loss, so I know the aim is to deal with stalls during landing.

[glendalegoon]

two thoughts:

one, when is the plane stalled? does a wing drop count?


two: the horizon in mountainous terrain is always at the base of the mountains, not the peaks.


recognize the stall, get out of it, the rudder dance is a wasted maneuver imho. mind you I"ve done it. I did it for my private checkride almost 40 years ago and the examiner said: why did you do the rudder dance, just recover and level the wings.

I mentioned that one of the instructors taught me how to do that (examiner was also chief pilot for the school) and he said they would be changing things. I think we called it the falling leaf?

When I taught, I didn't even show it, recover and use coordinated aileron and rudder.

Imagine if you over did the rudder in the stalled or semi stalled condition!

push forward, add power and coordinated controls to level flight!

[Big Pistons Forever]

the horizon in mountainous terrain is always at the base of the mountains, not the peaks.



Huh :confused::confused::confused:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

two: the horizon in mountainous terrain is always at the base of the mountains, not the peaks.

Always???? :confused:

[glendalegoon]

where else would the horizon be? above the peaks?

now, I'm not including sea floor mountains in case you are operating the seaview's flying sub (reference to "voyage to the bottom of the sea).


think about it. the horizon is where sky meets the earth (or sea) and the mountains protrude above the earth.

[Mach Jump]

I think what some people are missing here is that there are two parts to a stall recovery.

1. First regain control by reducing the Angle of Attack (AoA). This will eliminate all the symptoms; stall warning, buffeting, and the wing will stop dropping.

Then you are left with an aircraft in an unusual attitude, with low airspeed.

2. Now you minimise the loss of height in the usual way; increase power, level the wings with coordinated use of aileron and rudder, raise the nose to the climb attitude, being careful not to re-enter the stall by pulling too hard, and finally retract the flaps in stages.

The important thing to remember here is that there is absolutely no point doing any of the things in part 2 until yoiu have completed part 1 !

I think that localflighteast understands the above perfectly well, but just can't resist reacting to the wing drop with opposite aileron before reducing the AoA

I agree with Big Pistons that taking it more slowly and saying the actions out loud will help get this right.


Glendalegoon.

I'm not sure about the horizon being at the base of the mountains. I think that you have to average out the peaks and valleys to estimate where the sea horizon would be.



MJ:ok:

[Mach Jump]

....the seaview's flying sub....

I doubt most readers will remember Admiral Nelson and the Seaview (showing my own age now!) :eek:

MJ:ok:

[abgd]

I also tend to pull power early on as with a major wing drop you are in an incipient spin that often ends up as a spiral dive with a lot of speed. Or is that to say that I've been overcooking things? Or possibly undercooking - trying too hard to avoid an accelerated stall.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A quick google search brought this up.

Historically, the distance to the visible horizon at sea has been extremely important as it represented the maximum range of communication and vision before the development of the radio and the telegraph. Even today, when flying an aircraft under Visual Flight Rules, a technique called attitude flying is used to control the aircraft, where the pilot uses the visual relationship between the aircraft's nose and the horizon to control the aircraft. A pilot can also retain his or her spatial orientation by referring to the horizon.

The use of the visible horizon on the prairies to maintain altitude in a turn will be very beneficial to you.

Conversely using the visible separation of earth and sky in mountainous terrain during a steep turn may prove to be not exactly beneficial in maintaining accurate altitude all the way around a steep turn.

[Mach Jump]

I also tend to pull power early on

I can see why you would think that, but as soon as you reduce the AoA, and regain control, you don't need to reduce power.

One more thing you can add, once you have got the hang of the above, is use rudder to prevent yaw towards the downgoing wing after you have recovered control. (NOT TO PICK IT UP) Then the pitch attitude will not end up so steeply nose down.

MJ:ok:

[abgd]

Maybe I'm heavy footed, but when I tried that in a PA38 we found ourselves upside down with the nose not far off vertical. I wasn't sure whether we were in a spin or not, and by the time I'd looked at my instructor and said 'you have control' we were going rather fast - well into the yellow arc before recovering. Cessnas are more benign, but you can still get into some 'unusual attitudes' worthy of the name if you stall with sufficient power and don't try to recover immediately.

I hear what you're saying, but presumably somewhere between a 30 degree wing drop and the nose pointing vertically down, there's a threshold where it doesn't make sense any more to add power.

[Mach Jump]

hear what you're saying, but presumably somewhere between a 30 degree wing drop and the nose pointing vertically down, there's a threshold where it doesn't make sense any more to add power.

Yes, I see what you mean. Once the situation has developed to that extent, the unusual attitude is one with a high, or rapidly increasing airspeed, and you are right, in that situation, to reduce power.

Is this happening as a result of your rudder input, ie. does the wing drop, then you apply opposite rudder, then the aircraft rolls over the other way?

In that case you are being too heavy footed, and applying the rudder too soon, before you have unstalled the wing.

If the same wing continues to drop after you apply the rudder, then you have not unstalled the wing first.

Remember the first thing you must do, before anything else, is move the control column forward far enough to eliminate the stall symptoms!

The PA38 is particularly inclined to drop a wing at the stall, and as a result of experience it was recomended that manoeuvers involving an approach to the stall in the PA38 not be started below 4,000' agl as an added precaution.



MJ:ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Two penneth worth from an experienced RAF QFI.


"...and let me recover the wingdrop with the rudder."


Please explain how the use of rudder is able to reduce wing angle of attack.

[Mach Jump]

Lightning Mate

Yes, its a constant struggle to stop people adopting this misconcept, which, to be fair, I think was introduced in the early (RFC) days of aviation when stalling was not really understood.

Actually, yaw does change the relative AoAs of the opposite wingtips by varying their relative foreward speeds, thus increasing/decreasing the horizontal component of the relative airflow.

'Picking up the wing with opposite rudder' is achieved by simply inducing a similar stall and wing drop on the other side! This was developed into an entertaining/dangerous party trick called the Falling Leaf manoeuver, the 'trick' being to catch the reversals before they developed into spins, and I think it is this, more than anything that has perpetuated the misconcept for so long.


MJ:ok:

[localflighteast]

a lot of stuff going on here. Appreciate everyone who has taken the time to reply. Some helpful advice, perhaps some misunderstanding as to what I'm asking as well.

For what it is worth, I'm familiar with the "falling leaf" maneuver (at least in theory), this ISN'T what i'm doing or being asked to do.

I think Mach Jump has it spot on "I think that localflighteast understands the above perfectly well, but just can't resist reacting to the wing drop with opposite aileron before reducing the AoA"

I know that the first thing I do is get the plane out of the stall , in this case by getting the nose down (although not too far , done that before as well!)

I just need to stop myself yanking the control column round. I'm looking for physical ways to help achieve this.
I've got a couple of methods I'm going to try.

As for the leaning forward thing. I'm really short. I have to sit quite far forward in order to get my feet on the pedals. If I compound that by leaning forward then any kind of back pressure on the yoke becomes a problem!

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm hoping to get a flight in this weekend so i'll let you know how it goes.

[cockney steve]

Just to clear upa misconception....Local Flight East, the Original Poster, is the party of the Female Persuasion.....not having been contradicted, one assumesher instructor is male. :p

[Mach Jump]

one assumesher instructor is male.

Not sure why you would assume that, steve, or what difference it would make.

localflighteast

Good luck at the weekend. I'm sure you will get the hang of this with a bit more practice, and then wonder what all the fuss was about! :)


MJ:ok:

[Pace]

LocalFlyEast

I still think you are flying in car mode :{ and reverting to your familiarity with a car instincts especially under stress!
Take a step back and forget the column altogether!
Set the aircraft up for level flight and get it well trimmed so it's flying wings level at a set attitude!
Don't touch the yoke at all but purely use the rudder!
Add gentle pressure and note what happens! Hold a heading using gentle rudder pressure! Now add more pressure and be more brutal! Watch what happens to the T and S and the ball! Watch what happens regarding the nose and the horizon as well as the wing!
Sadly many people hardly use the rudder tending to forget it and concentrating too much on the yoke!
A tip when you fly your steep turns and many won't like this but it's a good exercise trim the aircraft into a steep turn so it takes the pressure off your arms and allows you to fly the turn with gentle finger tip pressure!
You should re trim for every configuration power change!
Why not steep turns!
Consider the harmonisation of all your controls not one in isolation and understand what is happening
Then go back to your stall and don't be afraid to play around to experiment in that configuration too and note what is happening

Pace

[India Four Two]

localflighteast,

I've come late to this thread. I just want to reassure you that this is a common problem with students. I used to instruct in gliders and almost every new student wanted to "pick up the wing" using the stick. It's instinctive and you have to learn and practice the correct technique until it too becomes instinctive.

My suggestion would be to practice power-off stalls with a higher pitch attitude than normal, so as to almost guarantee a wing drop. Then you have one less control to worry about.

Go slowly as others have suggested and think of it in three steps:

1. Push the yoke forward to unstall the wing.
2. Stop the yaw with rudder.
3. Level the wings with the ailerons.

Then raise the nose while applying power.

If it's any consolation, I should confess to the following. I've been flying for more years than I care to admit and I mostly fly aircraft with sticks. When I hop into a Cessna, I often find I want to "steer" with the yoke, while taxying! ;)

[Lightning Mate]

"Yes, its a constant struggle to stop people adopting this misconcept"


That's not the only one either.


When I was an ATPL instructor it was a constant uphill battle to dispel enormous myths with people who only held a PPL.


A good one was the fact that a wing develops lift because the air over the upper surface has to go faster in order to meet the flow over the lower surface.


Utter b##################s

[mad_jock]

Local another trick I used to do with students was make them fly with a pen across the top of there middle finger trapped by the index and ring finger on the top of it.

Stops muckle fisted abuse of the controls.

[Mach Jump]

A good one was the fact that a wing develops lift because the air over the upper surface has to go faster in order to meet the flow over the lower surface.

;) Yes. Sometimes we simplify things to a point where they are not really true. Far too big a subject to go into here though. At least people are not going to get into trouble flying the aircraft believing that.


MJ:ok:

[abgd]

The truth is I don't know what happened in the Tommie - all went so fast. In the Cessnas I'm fairly sure I've been getting to a point where e.g. full right rudder was unable to prevent further wing drop to the left, at which point they show they can bite.

[Mach Jump]

Local another trick I used to do with students was make them fly with a pen across the top of there middle finger trapped by the index and ring finger on the top of it.


Souinds interesting. I'll try that. :)

full right rudder was unable to prevent further wing drop to the left

The thing to remember here is that it's unstalling the wing (moving the control colunm forward) that stops it dropping, not using opposite rudder. The rudder is used AFTER you have unstalled the wing, to PREVENT FURTHER YAW, while you level the wings with the ailerons.


MJ:ok:

[mad_jock]

A good one was the fact that a wing develops lift because the air over the upper surface has to go faster in order to meet the flow over the lower surface.

I hope none of you ever meet the lady I ended up having to teach fairy lift theory to because she really didn't get aerodynamics. Scary thing was I ended up nearly believing it myself as we didn't hit a single thing you couldn't explain using fairy lift theory.

adgd its any input in ailerons which does it, for the first 2 months demoing stalls I too had a wing drop on the tommy, 200 hours later it suddenly stopped doing it while the students continued to wing drop.

[India Four Two]

Stops muckle fisted abuse of the controls.

mj,

I always made a point, when introducing new students to tandem two-seat gliders, to get them to hold the stick lightly with fingers and thumb, rather than a death-grip. I also checked that lefties were using their right hand, to avoid getting into trouble later in the circuit when they needed to use the airbrakes.

I also showed them how, in the case of the excessively tall stick in a Blanik, to hold it below the hand-grip, so that they could brace their fore-arm on their thigh, to avoid PIOs on takeoff.

[Mach Jump]

.....we didn't hit a single thing you couldn't explain using fairy lift theory

MJ

Love to hear about Fairy Lift. It could be just as convincing as some of the other theories, and a lot more fun! ;)


MJ:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I hope none of you ever meet the lady I ended up having to teach fairy lift theory to because she really didn't get aerodynamics. Scary thing was I ended up nearly believing it myself as we didn't hit a single thing you couldn't explain using fairy lift theory.


The correct explanation is that the earth attracts flyimg machines in proportion to ugliness and mass, but that lift can be generated to counteract this by equal and opposite reaction to the reduction in mass of the operator's bank account.

So, the heavier, or uglier (and especially aeroplanes that are both), the greater account-lightening is required to generate lift.

Pretty much any flying machine fit this:- helicopters, particularly big ones, tend to be particularly ugly so require enormous amounts of account-lightening, whilst gliders for example, which are reasonably light and extremely beautiful, require hardly any account-lightening at-all to fly.

G

[Mach Jump]

Genghis.

I'm sure that's as practically useful an explanation as any other! :D

Except, of course that the reduction in wallet mass is a function of the square of the ugliness x the weight. ;)



MJ:ok:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I just need to stop myself yanking the control column round. I'm looking for physical ways to help achieve this.
I've got a couple of methods I'm going to try.

Just.... don't do it! Recover methodically; think of it as two separate and distinct actions:

First - Unstall the wing with slight (it won't take much) forward stick.

Second - remove any unwanted roll with aileron.

Don't do the second 'till you've done the first.

[Piper.Classique]

If it ain't stalled it can't spin.

It's actually easier to avoid inadvertent aileron movement if you are flying an aircraft with a stick, but you have to go with what you've got
;)

[Level Attitude]

Hi localflighteast
Firstly, since you say:
I think I almost span it once because I was stupidThen please don't:airwork dual and then the next couple of lessons I go up and do them solo
Power On Stalls, from level flight, in a C172 with approx. 1600rpn will give
a slightly higher nose attitude at the point of stall than Power Off Stalls.
Is this what you are doing? Or are you using the power to pull the nose up
very high prior to the stall - leading to things happening very quickly, and
hence you trying to react too quickly and doing the wrong thing?

The "Nose Drop" from a Power On Stall is more evident than from Power Off.
Just ease the Control Column forward a little (plus add power if doing a
standard stall recovery) to ensure that both wings unstall, without
bothering about aileron or rudder (just ignore any wing drop at the stall).
The aircraft will now be in a perfectly good flying condition and any bank
can be rectified by usual aileron input coordinated with rudder.

I think the point of all of this (including Test Standards) is to confirm
no aileron input is used whilst the aircraft is stalled/close to the stall - it
is not to show use of rudder in a stall.

If you are going to use rudder in the stall then you need to understand why:
1) If, for whatever reason, one wing stalls before the other then the
aircraft will roll towards that wing (greater loss of lift on one side).
2) A stalled (or more stalled) wing generates more drag than the other, so
the aircraft will also yaw towards that wing.
The use of rudder, in a stall, is not to try and "lift" (secondary effect) a wing
back up, it is for its primary effect of yaw and only sufficient needs to be
applied to prevent further yaw of the aircraft. You have to accept that, with
a wing drop no stall recovery will result in an, initial, wings level attitude.
The use of rudder in the stall is simply to minimise the "unusualness" of
the unusual attitude you will be in once recovered.

There is probably one phase of flight where you already use rudder without
aileron - and that is the last phase of landing where you may need constant
small rudder inputs to keep the nose of the aircraft pointing straight down
the runway.

Be conscious of this your next few landings and, if it is true, then you know
you can apply the same to stalling.

[ArcticChiller]

Turn Smart - YouTube (http://youtu.be/xwrfEsCiltc)

This video explains very well the falling leaf maneuver. The wingdrop is indeed prevented by rudder.

[Mach Jump]

This video explains very well the falling leaf maneuver. The wingdrop is indeed prevented by rudder.

Thats a great video, and it's easy to see it as him preventing the wing drop with the rudder in the Falling Leaf. What he is really doing is inducing a wing drop on the other side to match the original one. The second wing then drops beyond the first, and requires the rudder to be reversed again to induce the first wing to drop again and so on.

What this shows very well is that using the rudder to try to 'pick up' the downgoing wing, without reducing the AoA overall (moving the control column forward) is very likely to induce the opposite wing to drop beyond the first and then you are in a worse situation than you started with.


MJ:ok:

[localflighteast]

@level flight, I won't be doing them solo because I'm messing them up. Hence the frustration, they are not yet on my list of things I'm approved to do when solo.

@pace - appreciate your comments about treating the controls like a car's but I don't drive so am not convinced this is a major problem.

going to talk over the plan with my instructor and figure out where we go with regard to my next lesson

[Andy_P]

Two penneth worth from an experienced RAF QFI.


"...and let me recover the wingdrop with the rudder."


Please explain how the use of rudder is able to reduce wing angle of attack.

Not sure if it was me that said that, but incase it was, as a student I should put I what I think is happening. The use of the rudder is to stop the rotation, not the wingdrop (so using rudder if the wing is still stalled, will help unstall the wing?). Using the rudder beforehand will stop the wingdrop because you are preventing the plane from yawing, ie trying to prevent one wing slowing down enough to stall before the other.

[Mach Jump]

...you are preventing the plane from yawing...


YES! If only everyone learned when they did 'Effects of Controls' that the rudder is used primarily to PREVENT yaw, not induce it, they would be much better prepared for all the other exercises, including stalling.

Before the stall though, as the speed is slowing, with some power on, the aircraft tends to yaw in the direction opposite to the top of the prop, as you see it from the pilot's position. This is a yaw to the left in most modern aircraft. This induces a roll to the left as the left wing slows down, and people then try to hold the wings level with the ailerons. This, in turn, causes an out of balance condition as you approach the stall, which will make a wing drop more likely.

People then see the wing drop at the stall as just a continuation of the one that occured as they approached the stall, and they react in a similar way with the aileron. So, you have to recognise that the wing drop at the stall has a completely different cause to the tendency to yaw/roll as you slow down, and needs a different solution.

As you approach a stall, prevent yaw with the rudder. This will keep the wings from rolling due to yaw.

At the stall though, the wing drops because it has STALLED, and you need to UNSTALL IT (move the control column forward) to stop it dropping!


MJ:ok:

[glendalegoon]

it all boils down to this: don't over control. practice it. little movements


one of the things you need to understand is the faster you are going the less movement you need

and, when you are going slowly, a control input will take longer.

[Level Attitude]

glendalegoon #11: AT first indication of a stall, push forward (usually just a small amount, or even the term, ''relax back pressure" is used) on the control wheel
and simultaneously level the wings and add full powerNo, you must ensure the aircraft is not stalled before using ailerons. I think you agree
as you also wrote (NB: I added "then" to your quote):glendalegoon #30: When I taught, I didn't even show it, recover and then use coordinated aileron and rudderI really like BPF's splitting it in to steps:BPF #18: Say out load " Step 1 stick forward wheel central", do it then say " Step 2 full power" then do it and then finally " step 3 straight with rudder" Except I cannot agree with Step 3, as written. Since the aircraft is no longer stalled then
"Roll the aircraft to nearest horizon using coordinated aileron and rudder" would be better.

agbd #36: I also tend to pull power early on as with a major wing drop you are in an incipient spinApplying full power is part of standard stall recovery, including
with wing drop. Removing power is part of incipient spin recovery.
The question does arise as to when a stall with wing drop becomes an
incipient spin - most books that I have seen say once the wings have
rolled through 90deg. This seems a little steep to me, and I would probably
say 45 deg. I note you were referring to a PA38 which does tend to
rapidly drop a wing in the stall!

MJ #65: 'Effects of Controls' that the rudder is used primarily to PREVENT yawEven with the main wings stalled the tailplane, generally, is not. So rudder can be
used to prevent further yaw in the stall.

localflighteast #8: sigh, I waited almost a day before posting this because I had a suspicion the thread was going to go this wayYes, you have had a bit of thread drift - but many ideas have been mentioned.
The best thing would be for you to go through this whole thread with your instructor to see what they think.


NB: Apologies for all the split quotes.
The system keeps on adding the quotation instruction without my asking for it :8

[glendalegoon]

level attitude:

I guess you didn't read that nice FAA document nor the explanation about washout there or in ''stick and rudder'' that I mentioned.

I grow fatigued. I hope others will read the aforementioned information and learn from it.

I hope the mods lock this one up.

[Andy_P]

I guess you didn't read that nice FAA document nor the explanation about washout there or in ''stick and rudder'' that I mentioned.

I grow fatigued. I hope others will read the aforementioned information and learn from it.

I hope the mods lock this one up.

No no no no, dont lock it up. There is 2 of us here learning stuff.

So I reread the part in stick and rudder as you suggested, and I am not sure what you are getting at? I understand the concept of washout, the c172 I fly has plenty of it. It also has differential fraise ailerons, and I get the concept behind that too. Its all to help stop a wing stalling.

BUT, we are talking about when the wing is fully stalled. Perhaps I am missing something? I know that if I use ailerons when stalled in the c172 I fly, then the wing drops and it starts to autorotate. I also know that if I let the controls go, it will recover. BUT, this wont get me past my flight test.

As I suggested earlier, I am guessing that this is to teach to recover in the situation that you stall whilst landing, and in that case you probably want to recover as fast as possible, hence the reason they suggest not using aileron as it may exacerbate the problem. What ever the reason, I am going to ask my FI this very question.

[mad_jock]

It centres on the fact that the aircraft flys because there is a load of fairy's on the leading edge which lift the aircraft into the air when blown due to their skirts getting lifted.

So the faster you go the more lift you get from their skirts.

Now stalling is explained by the fact that as the wing angle increases the fairys have to lean into the wind. Once the wing gets to a certain angle the fairys fall over and can't get back up until the angle decreases again.

Its all very embarrassing to admit I defeated the syllabus with lift fairy's theory but the lady did know all the concepts just not the official reason why they did occur. And to be honest if she was happy the reason why you need to decrease the AoA was because the fairys fell over instead of boundary layer detaching and causing turbulent flow its not such a bad thing.

In any case she understood the only way to unstall an aircraft was to reduce the AoA the fact that she thought this was to let the fairy's to be able to stand again is merely a technicality.

[Andy_P]

But we are not talking about unstalling the aircraft, we are talking about preventing a wingdrop when its stalled.

[tecman]

The fraise ailerons are the strawberry ones, I guess :). The others were invented by Mr Frise.

[Andy_P]

The fraise ailerons are the strawberry ones, I guess . The others were invented by Mr Frise.

Look, I am an engineer alright, english is not my first language :}

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Mad Jock - Your Fairey theory still depends on the stude getting the idea that it's exceeding critical AoA (faireys falling over) that causes stalls, not lack of airpeed.

Did she understand about AoA, or was she thinking of the wing angle purely with reference to the ground rather than with the relative airflow? If the former, she might be surprised later in her career to come across flight situations where the wing is vertical, or even inverted, relative to the ground but the faireys hang on in there. Or sometimes only at a slight angle relative to the ground and they all fall over!

[mad_jock]

Andy the thing which is causing the wing drop is you annoying the aircraft.

This almost always is because your gripping the controls as if your throttling a chicken.

As others have said in a light aircraft there is absolutely no reason at all to have more than thumb and two fingers on the yoke. This will make you control the aircraft using only wrist force instead of using your powerful upper arm muscles. Now this isn't to say that some conditions won't require you to grab it by the neck and use everything you have got. But that is in extreme conditions.

As a famous steerman pilot Brendan in the UK says make love to the sky don't shag it.

Shaggy obviously air flow because that's what makes the skirts lift and fairies stand upright on the wing, why would they lean when they were standing? They would only lean if you were going sideways which you would then apply rudder so the fairies on the tail would pull the plane into flying straight and then they would be able to stand upright again.

Mate it was as enlightening to me with the logic as it is to you. Most of it driven by her. And the logical jumps were worthy of an engineer work things out from first principles. Just unfortunately the first principles she was working from were complete bollocks.

[Andy_P]

This almost always is because your gripping the controls as if your throttling a chicken.

Hey, I am getting better. You should have seen me when I started all this!

But suffice to say, the 2 finger approach does not really work when you are forcing the plane to stall. Its clearly is not interested in stalling!! A little force is needed to pull it up into a stall, especially when you have full flap deployed.

When we were doing incipient stalls the other day, a bit of power on, pull up to stall, it wing drops regardless of what you do.

[localflighteast]

Mad jock
"the thing which is causing the wing drop is you annoying the aircraft.

This almost always is because your gripping the controls as if your throttling a chicken."

Totally guilty as charged with this as well. I'm working on the finesse but it isn't coming easily. Hey at the start of all this , many , many lessons ago I managed to pop a knuckle out of joint I was hanging on so hard!

But it takes a mere puny female like me a fair amount of force to get the control column back enough to properly stall the plane. So finesse isn't exactly the first thing on my mind.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

As others have said in a light aircraft there is absolutely no reason at all to have more than thumb and two fingers on the yoke. This will make you control the aircraft using only wrist force instead of using your powerful upper arm muscles.

In the delightful Chipmunk, one isn't aware of exerting any force on the stick. You think it around the sky!

That aeroplanes fly well on their was demonstrated on TV recently. Griff Reece Jones was out and about in the Brecon Beacons and got a ride in a K13 glider. The instructor, before handing him control, said "clap your hands". He did, and so did the instructor; "see, it flies perfectly well without either of us controlling it. So only use very gentle movements on the stick".

[mad_jock]

Honestly I have had little 50kg imp girlies manage to get the yoke back using 2 fingers and thumb. Its not so much that you using only those fingers its the fact that you not balling your fist round it. So if your fingers arn;t strong enough use three finger s and thumb but still have the centre of pressure on the fingers while they can move and not in a fist.

So its just a flexing of the fingers which is pulling the yoke about not a physical movement of your whole arm. And rotation is through the wrist not by moving your shoulder.

[Level Attitude]

I guess you didn't read that nice FAA documentNo, I hadn't; but I have now. For an FAA Article, particularly
if intended for students, I think it is dangerously ambiguous.
Since the basic cause of a stall is always an excessive angle
of attack, the cause must first be eliminated by releasing the
back-elevator pressure that was necessary to attain that angle
of attack or by moving the elevator control forwardI think we can all agree with this.

Using the ailerons requires finesse to avoid an aggravated
stall conditionThe only time I can think of when it might be possible to use aileron
in a stall is when (due to washout) the inboard section of the wing has stalled,
but the outer part hasn't and, even then, excessive aileron input will stall the outer
part of the wing, leading to wing drop. With an already dropping wing the critical AoA
will already have been exceeded and any use of aileron will only make matters
worse - more roll & more yaw (= possible spin as localflighteast indicated in
her original post).

Finesse comes with experience. Students are taught to recover from stalls
instinctively - using a method that always works.

In Europe (certainly the UK) and, it sounds like, in Canada any candidate who uses
aileron when the aircraft is still stalled will be asked to repeat the manoeuvre and, if
they still do it, will fail that part of the test.

decrease the pitch attitude by applying forward-elevator pressure
to break the stall, advancing the throttle to increase airspeed, and
simultaneously maintaining directional control with coordinated
use of the aileron and rudderIt does depend on which actions 'simultaneously' is referring to here.
There should be no ambiguity: unstall the aircraft - then ailerons
may be used.

[glendalegoon]

Now I see the problem.


With washout, the ailerons will work fine as long as you don't let the wing stall completely.

Recovery should be done at aerodynamic buffeting (assuming buffeting is part of the stall, there are some planes which have insufficient buffeting to qualify here. Certainly the light planes we are talking about C172, PA28 etc qualify))


so, you hear the stall warning, feel the first nibble of the buffet, recover now and there is no question the ailerons will work.

allow the stall to progress to the entire wing and you see problems.

Recover at the first indication of a stall.

Don't hold the plane in the stall.


Read "stick and rudder" rather than spend too much time on pprune.


bye now

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I'm starting to think that something out of the ordinary is going on between this instructor and his female student..



This almost always is because your gripping the controls as if your throttling a chicken

Its not so much that you using only those fingers its the fact that you not balling your fist round it. So if your fingers arn;t strong enough use three finger s and thumb but still have the centre of pressure on the fingers while they can move and not in a fist.

[localflighteast]

LOL

I wish :O

We are both happily married ( to our respective spouses!) thank you

[BigEndBob]

Having entered a zillion stalls with students, the first thing any pilot will do given any sort of uncommanded roll is to apply opposite aileron.
I would do the same.
Practise stalls are so artificial.
If stalled a wing may drop. Practise recovery from a wing drop.
If this scares pilots, good, don't stall.
At worse recover at the stall warner, that's if it's working or not iced up.
Recover perhaps when you feel the airspeed is low due to lack of control (slow flight exercise), rather than when the stall warner might or might not go off.

[Pace]

BEB

Going off topic slightly the main reason I feel that while recovery at incipient is an excellent exercise I don't think it is enough!
It is a product of our liability society and hence in these discussions I always recommend pilots invest a few hours with an aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic capable aircraft ( a 152 aerobat ) is fine
The reason for that is twofold ! One they can build confidence in the what lies beyond factor and really abuse the controls to see and experience the effect
Secondly it gives them a better chance of recovery if the aircraft goes beyond for whatever reason!
Recovery at incipient is obviously the prime target but sadly that is in an ideal world!
In an ideal world pilots would peg airspeed and never get slow but ??
Most stall accidents happen when the pilot is distracted and it is in those times that they may go beyond incipient!
I quote a couple of stalls at altitude when on autopilot which resulted in successful chute pulls in a certain aircraft!
There have been many loss of control accidents where incipient has not worked many sadly fatal even in aircraft like the PC12
With the famous airline crash where ATP rated pilots used the wrong recovery techniques even the FAA are looking at adding more handling techniques into the training syllabus!
We have had a couple of threads where pilots have been scared of stalling on their own because they fear doing something which puts them in unknown territory and not having someone alongside to get them out of it.
Hence I would add a few hours aerobatic instruction into the PPL syllabus even if it means trimming out those hours from the existing syllabus to make way for extra handling!
If not I would thoroughly recommend pilots invest in a few hours aerobatic training including the OP as this will give them a lot more confidence and make them better pilots.
Not to take up aerobatics :E but so they can fully explore the flight envelope and effect of controls in relative safety.

Pace

[fireflybob]

Pace, well said!

Some basic aerobatics with a good instructor produces a much more robust pilot.

[localflighteast]

hopefully it might produce a more robust stomach as well.
Bumpy conditions, time under the hood and stall after stall last lesson produced one chundering pilot!

I will consider the aeros , just want to get the PPL sorted first

[Andy_P]

I too plan to do what pace recommends. Lucky for me, there is an aerobatic school near the club. However, I am not personally ready for that just yet, although I dont think I am far off it!

[fireflybob]

How times change. My father was a veteran flying instructor in the days when we had Chipmunks at the flying school.

He would often get the students flying loops before first solo and the way he taught the students loved it.

[Andy_P]

How times change. My father was a veteran flying instructor in the days when we had Chipmunks at the flying school.

He would often get the students flying loops before first solo and the way he taught the students loved it.

I guess you have not seen my other thread on fear of flying!!! I'm getting there though, one step at a time!

[glendalegoon]

andy p

you seem like a nice guy and interested in flying.

but you spend a great amount of time on pprune.

you might benefit by the following, free ways to improve your own flying:


1. read many books on flying, all aspects.

2. go out to the ''instructor's bench" (that's what we call it in the USA) and sit and watch takeoffs and landings. Now that videocams are so cheap, video them and study them. especially from 200' down and climbout to 2oo' too.
If there is no instructor's bench, just get as close to the runway as THEY will let you. maybe near the windsock

3. buy a cheap VHF receiver (like from radio shack company) and listen to the radio work while watching the landings and takeoffs.

not trying to kick you off pprune, but time is wasting and there are better ways to spend it!

all the best, I mean it.

[Andy_P]

andy p

you seem like a nice guy and interested in flying.

but you spend a great amount of time on pprune.

you might benefit by the following, free ways to improve your own flying:


1. read many books on flying, all aspects.

2. go out to the ''instructor's bench" (that's what we call it in the USA) and sit and watch takeoffs and landings. Now that videocams are so cheap, video them and study them. especially from 200' down and climbout to 2oo' too.
If there is no instructor's bench, just get as close to the runway as THEY will let you. maybe near the windsock

3. buy a cheap VHF receiver (like from radio shack company) and listen to the radio work while watching the landings and takeoffs.


1. Do that. I may not be the oldest here, but pushing 40 I have quite an extensive library, that has plenty of aviation books!

2. Do that also. Quite often I go out sit just at the bounds of the aerodrome and watch the aircraft land and observe the technique.

I also try and participate in as much of the social stuff that the club does, including the club flyaway's.

3. I have a scanner. At home, I don't receive much. At the club, well its CTAF so not much radio work that I don't already know and do.

As for being on pprune, well I am at work now :). But I do other things here, like this: https://www.edx.org/course/delftx/delftx-ae1110x-introduction-aeronautical-1201 I cant help it, I am an engineer! Sorry, work is quiet at the moment. I also have a little hideyhole here that I sneak off in to do some of my PPL study. I normally spend an hour or two doing that whilst things are quiet. Sometimes being the owner of the business is tough!

[localflighteast]

had another dual lesson this weekend in an attempt to get these bleedin' power on stalls nailed.

usual checks then into my first power on stall. Yup, exactly the same as last time :( can't resist those ailerons. I realise what I'm doing and correct but not before I've made the situation worse than it needed to be.

My instructor waits a moment while I run through my entire repertoire of swear words. Then we revert back to trying some power off stalls with full flaps.

we establish that I can recover from them just fine for whatever reason.

So we start with full flaps and adding a couple of of hundred rpm. I give it a go. I catch myself trying to snatch the yoke round but stop myself.Not quite quickly enough for it to be perfect.

Still we persist, just adding a little power at a time as I get comfortable with the recovery.

Eventually I'm managing at about 1600 rpm with full flaps.we do a couple more to prove to me that it wasn't a fluke.

countless stalls later and I'm feeling a lot better about the whole thing. And my instructor is happy to sign me off to do them solo.

Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions, turns out ( as many of you suspected) that this was just a temporary bump on the road to getting my ppl. One that I appear to be in the process of navigating.

in terms of what actually helped, I was wrong in thinking i needed to do something drastic to stop my arms twisting the yoke, anything which makes me tense up is a bad idea. relaxing into it and slowing it down helped. Not just the recovery. My instructor encouraged me to slow down the entry as well. Letting the speed bleed off slowly and giving the flaps time to do there thing certainly helped. Maybe it just helped me be more relaxed when the plane did stall. I dunno

Eventually i just stopped doing the stupid stuff with the ailerons.

[Andy_P]

God work localflighteast. I just have to finish off my circuit solo work, then I am back to the training area. I passed all the advanced stalls, but the instructor said after each lesson we will do a couple of practice stalls anyway. Bet you I will end up doing the same thing!! I may come pester you for some advice in a couple of weeks!

Might I add, sometimes just coming here and talking about this stuff makes you think about it enough to sort it out. I had the same thing when learning to flare. Next lesson after talking about it here I nailed it.

[Mach Jump]

Wayhay!:D That's great. I hope it helped to have a bunch of strangers kick your problem around and see what they came up with. There are always others here in the same situation, and ones that have overcome the same problems not long before. I know the Pixxxxg Contest compettitors can be a bit of a pain here, but generally you find people are genuine and really want to help.


MJ:ok:

[glendalegoon]

localflightest


did you know there is a prescribed deceleration rate for such maneuvers (at least in FAA land)?


AS you start to slow into a stall, reduce speed by one knot per second. if you stall around 40, and you are starting at 100 knots, it takes quite a bit of time.

do you start trimming for any specific speed like Vy?

If you trim hands off for Vy and then pull slowly into the stall, when you let go the plane will be trimmed for a nice best rate of climb making it easier on you.

[localflighteast]

Mach Jump , it sure did help. That's one of the things I love about pprune. As Andy says it just helps to get your thoughts down and have other people tell you that nothing you are experiencing is new or exciting!
For me the biggest problem has always been confidence, just to hear other people experiencing the same issues lessens the "impostor syndrome" feeling I get sometimes.

My flying school isn't really set up in a way to encourage "hanger talk", it's not unfriendly per se , just not set up in a way to be conducive to it, so I need to get my fix on here !

Glen - I'll have a little play with that trick next time I'm up, thank you