Birmingham EGBB Tower on departures

[Skipness One Echo]

What's the reason that the Tower doesn't hand over departing aircraft once airborne like most UK airfields. Birmingham clears them for take off on the assumption they will contact the next frequency on wheels up whereas it's usual in the UK to remain with the Tower until handed off. I know the Birmingham method is common overseas, but why so rare in the UK?

[ZOOKER]

Is this a new procedure at EGBB or is it well established?

[Dave Clarke Fife]

What's the reason that the Tower doesn't hand over departing aircraft once airborne like most UK airfields. Birmingham clears them for take off on the assumption they will contact the next frequency on wheels up


Not quite an assumption and also not "wheels up" SID notes state "after TKOF and after passing 2000ft contact Birmingham Radar 118.050"

Not a Brum regular (except when the wind is gusting across LHR at 46 kts) so waiting for a BHX regular to explain how long this has been SOP

[Skipness One Echo]

Been the case since summer 2012 as I recall. "Cleared for take off runway 15, goodbye!"

[Hempy]

Jeez, can't have pilots actually reading the plates for instructions can we :rolleyes:

[llondel]

Been the case since summer 2012 as I recall. "Cleared for take off runway 15, goodbye!"

So what happens if something bad happens before the aircraft is safely off the ground? Or is the procedure that they'll still be on frequency until established in the climb and then just switch the radio over?

[mad_jock]

its very easy you stay on tower frequency until you go through 2000ft then once your finished doing the flying bit you flick the switch and book in with radar.

Now the 2000ft thing can be a bit of pain on some types and SOP's because they do noise abatement V2+10 climbs then accelerate at 1500ft agl. So they might be slightly higher than 2000ft or they might go early in the hope of continuous climb.

Most European departures that have it just have contact radar after departure with no alt specified.

On my TP it will be either 750ft agl or 1200ft because this just fits with our SOP's and the way we handle the aircraft. The jets from listening on frequency tend to do it at 1200ft or 2500ft more than likely for the same reasons.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Two incidents spring to mind.

1. Bad weather.. Departing northbound a/c on south runway.... go-around on north runway. Departure controller instructs departure to fly a heading to maintain separation.... no reply. Tries again.. no reply. A very, very scary minute or two ensued. The departure had changed frequency on getting airborne without being told.

2. Another one during a trial - "Contact xxx (freq) when airborne". Pilot decided to call the centre whilst approaching the holding point. Centre controller assumes it was just airborne and clears it to climb. Pilot assumes this means he can go, which he did. Tower controller totally bemused.

In my book, the controller should decide when a frequency change is appropriate and that is after no possible conflict can exist.

[Talkdownman]

1. That's because the ANSP did not, at the time, have robust procedures which ensured separation between departing traffic and go-around traffic. It only had reactive 'avoiding-action' procedures which had the potential to temporarily overload the tower controllers.

2. That's because the pilot did not comply with the procedure and assumptions were made. Procedures will never accommodate idiots.

Provided that the IFR procedures are robust I don't see anything wrong with an automatic 'After departure contact xxx'. My unit uses this procedure. It's simple, effective, the crew can choose to call when convenient. An ATC instruction once airborne will invariably interrupt the flow of cockpit SOPs, possibly to its detriment. Also means fewer RT transmissions and therefore more air time for more important communications.

[squidge]

It has been SOP since approximately 1998

[Albaman]

Furher to the various points raised under this thread, could someone explain, please, the circumstances at Birmingham which require contact with Birmingham Radar on departure and not the appropriate London or Scottish Control frequency ?

[T250]

Albaman,

Not sure what your current understanding of BHX is compared to London airports and those in Scotland but Birmingham is a unit where approach/radar is carried out at the unit, below the tower.

This is not the case at London airports such as LHR, LGW etc where all their radar and approach functions are carried out at TC Swanwick.

:cool:

[ZOOKER]

At a guess, the location of the approach radar radar unit doesn't really play a part.
At Manchester, approach is carried out from the base of the tower, but outbounds are still transferred straight to Scottish Control. When they were in the old tower block, approach was on the 4th floor, in the same room as the area control function, (a great system), and again a/c went straight from tower to area control. When Manchester Centre moved to Scottish, Manchester Approach continued to be carried out from the same suite until the new tower went operational, again not working the EGCC outbounds.
When Heathrow and Gatwick approach were co-located with the towers at those airfields, (prior to their move to LATCC and later, Swanwick), the majority of outbounds went from tower to London area control.
Although I have never worked at EGBB, (or seen their MATS Pt.2 for many years), I believe the reason approach work their outbounds is due to geography. The runway orientation and the geometry of the Birmingham CTR/CTA make it quite a 'tight' bit of airspace. Even with the extensions out to the west, the traffic flows and traffic mix at EGBB make it a challenging unit to work at. Historically EGBB was one of the first to trial the 'hub system', with many aircraft arriving over a short period of time. Also bear in mind that EGBB sits on the dividing line between London and Scottish areas of responsibility. This is further complicated by the airspace geometry, which has many of the SID's turning back into the areas where approach are vectoring their inbounds. When 15 is in use, the northbound SIDs are in conflict, and on 33, the south bounds are. The proximity of EGNX and M605, (Amber One), doesn't help.
Please accept that this is just my own theory, based on years of observation. hopefully someone from Elmdon will give us the full picture later. They earn their money there.

[obwan]

ELMDON !!! How old are you?:ugh:

[Talkdownman]

Ringway! Speke! Rhoose! Renfrew! Rochford! Turnhouse! Dalcross!

Etc etc etc...

[ZOOKER]

……Yeadon, Ferryfield, Squires Gate, Clyst-Honiton, Woolsington, Middleton-St.George, Castle Donnington, Port Ellen, Dyce, Abbotsinch, Collinstown…..:E

[ZOOKER]

Not forgetting…..Roborough, Kirmington, Riveside Park, Crosby, Hurn, Lulsgate, Eastleigh, Horsham-St.Faith and Sydenham. :ok:

[chevvron]

Er Hartford Bridge & Youngstroat Farm?

[Glamdring]

...Turnhouse

[eastern wiseguy]

Nutt's Corner...

[obwan]

Just goes to show that this forum is populated by some VERY elderly gentlemen.:D

[hec7or]

I think the reference to Elmdon is not a historical reference, but because that side of the airfield where ATC live is called the Elmdon apron by the locals.

[Hotel Tango]

Glamdring, you lose. Repetition! ;)

You get out of bed the wrong side today Obwan?

[Glamdring]

Bugger, I never seen that. :p

[Talkdownman]

Er Hartford Bridge & Youngstroat Farm?
Repetition.

Whitchurch
Lympne
Langley
Heston
Fordhouses
Idlewild
Fornebu
Carpiquet

But maybe that's deviation…

rgds

Gerry Attrick

[Hotel Tango]

I'll throw a few more in from my neck of the woods: Beek, Bierset, Zaventem, Gosselies.

With apologies to SOE who's thread we have, in true PPRuNe tradition, hijacked ;)

[ZOOKER]

Steering it slightly back on track…Hec7or, it was a historical reference, but calling it The Elmdon Apron is a nice touch….I like that.
I remember the 'GX' and the 'GM' NDBs and approach being 120.5MHz. Did it go to 131.32 for a while?
The first time we went spotting there it was under Amber One West, which was Stafford-Honiley, a glorious evening, with loads of Vanguards over the top.

[Talkdownman]

Aaah. Sector Thirteen…the three three three radial…
And London Sector Seven was on 124.6 M/cs…

Nurse, more medicine...

[Albaman]

Many thanks to ZOOKER for taking the trouble to prepare such a detailed response.

[obwan]

I was at "Elmdon" and remember LATCC co ordinating the occasional B747-100 through the zone having departed EGLL and not having enough oomph to get above FL90;)

[ZOOKER]

I remember a *an Air 727-200 going through the top of the 'BB zone from EGCC, top was FL95.

[Guest 112233]

(Having only got to the 2nd stage level in the ATCO interview process many moons ago ) Hence please treat with due dis-regard professionall.y

OK ZOOKER has nailed this one. (in my humble opn,)

The geometry of the environment dictates that a positive action is the best option. Think of the situation where "6000 QNH is a long way/time to go. SID loaded into the FMU . All the time in the world - We are light, 2700 FPM and 170 knots and quiet about it too - Alt limit set - whoops a A/P drop out - fire warning: Hyd warning and Elec dropout - reach for the QRH - perhaps that pre set call to 118.05 as you set 7700 may come in handy in a complex situation)

Sorry, its purely the imagination of a has been/never was - But once in a 10,000 situations that a professional crew might face without a symulator.

CAT III ( PS HD, was the first PPruner to contact me - much appreciated stiil M. and yes I'm a Brummie somewhere in my imagination)

[Hotel Tango]

Your post re Honiley brought back happy memories Zooker. Back in those days I lived relatively close to HON and spent many a clear day looking up from my garden. As well as the Vanguards for me it also included Britannias, Ambassadors, Viscounts and more. I also remember watching the many DC-3s crossing the Birmingham FIR on their way to and from the Channel Islands and points north. Them were the days our kid :)

[Guest 112233]

It was a similar situation about 1.5 WWNW of the Golf X - Just the Guardsvans, Viscounts, VC10's and contrails along A25 in the far west at at sunset - I could just fail to log the regs of those Vulcans decending twards the LIC from Wales. Still have the Bino's.

CAT III

[ZOOKER]

Great to hear from all you 'Men, (and women), Of The Midlands'.
I grew up in Lahoogabarrooga, just east of Amber One East, but still subjected to 'Madlands Today'. - Tom Coyne, Alan Towers, David Stevens and Kay Alexander all featured in my up-brining, - Not to mention John Kettley, the Watnall Met-Office Weather-man. It was Hell, y'all.

Whatever procedures you have, just keep us all safe.

[llondel]

I feel the urge to declare Mornington Crescent after all those other places.

[Vercingetorix]

Bovingdon, not the stack but the airfield!