Conversion from PA28 to Cessna 152

[mattari]

Hi guys,

I'm thinking of converting from PA28 warrior (over 80 hours) to Cessna 152 due to cost savings on hour building.

Has anyone done that, and is it much different to get used to?

Also how long is the differential training? I'm thinking of joining Omega aviation at Shoreham - Sussex, if anyone flies with them is there any good feedback and things to watch out for?

Thanks

[thing]

30 minutes in the cct should do it. Any more than that and I would suspect they are taking the p*** out of your wallet. It's going to be lighter on the controls (before the Pitts guys chip in I obviously mean relatively speaking) but not that much so. The xwind limits are less, 12kts for the 152 although it will do more. It's a little twitchier to keep straight on the deck in a gusty xwind. All of the stuff really you would expect from a lighter a/c.

Other than that there's not much difference at all. I jump from one to the other and can't say I really notice.

[ArcticChiller]

I agree, one flight should be enough. Ground effect is more noticeable in low-wing aircraft. Actually I think it would be sufficient to sit in the airplane and go through the checklist several times and touching all controls so you know where to find them. To me, a transition to another plane is more about the panel layout than about the airplane (as long as we're talking about PA28, C152...). Anyhow, I appreciate to fly from time to time with an instructor/"rated" pilot.

[Talkdownman]

An SEP is an SEP is an SEP...

[phiggsbroadband]

Is the lack of a fuel pump the only difference?


They are both electrical flaps if I remember correctly.

[thing]

Mechanical flaps on the 28. No fuel pump on 152, gravity fed. I should say no electric fuel pump.

Just thought of the main difference, it doesn't need a clogful of rudder in the climb. The engine is only like a couple of rubber bands so no or hardly any rudder required. That one still catches me out as I usually just climb with my right foot out automatically, then wonder why I'm flying sideways in the 152.

[glendalegoon]

hi mattari

After you are through flying the C152 you will say: gee, maybe a few bucks more is not so bad for the warrior.

Let's look at the turn from base to final (is that what you call it over there?)

You drop the wing in the warrior and you see more and more of the airport runway. You drop the wing in the C152 and you see less and less.

Some of your current scanning patterns for traffic will be way off as you really can't see so well in the C152 as the wing is in the way for the climb.

no electrical fuel pump. fine. but if the plane cracks up, the gas is on top of you.

OH, and get use to that lawnmower style throttle, carb heat and mixture.

It will be less comfortable and you may bump your head on the wing or wing struts. Oh, and don't slip when you climb on the strut to look in the gas tanks.

The reason you are switching is money. The best thing you can say about the C152 is that its cheaper. Like saying I'll take girl "A" out because she is a cheaper date than girl "B".

hmmmm

and yes, some will disagree with me and good luck to you all.

[thing]

Glen, the best aircraft is the one that you're flying at the time...:).

[Johnm]

There's a reason a 152 is cheaper PA 28 is an aeroplane, no-one knows what a 152 is :E

[Mach Jump]

30 minutes in the cct should do it. Any more than that and I would suspect they are taking the p*** out of your wallet.

Mattari

Make sure that you ask the instructor to show you the C150/152 stall in the approach configuration (20 flap/1,500 RPM), then come back and tell us if you think '30 mins in the circuit' is enough :eek:

MJ:ok:

[thing]

I was waiting for the horror stories to start...:rolleyes:. Actually Matt the 152 is a known killer, best avoided if you are incapable of flying it within it's flight envelope. In fact avoid flying any a/c if you're incapable of flying it properly.

[mad_jock]

Most instructors will have never done a fully developed stall in that configuration why would they give it to a student converting?

Its recover on the stall warner in that configuration. Which is a piece of piss.

[thing]

MJ, I've done the deadly stall configuration at low revs etc etc. It flicks. It flicks no more than 90 degrees on a bad day with a 't' in it. Recovery is instant and if you unintentionaly get to the point where it flicks then you have to question whether you should be flying in the first place.

[BigEndBob]

MJ-It might be on SEP test but think any decent checkout would cover various types of full stall. I particularly cover full flap goaround from a trimmed glide approach, recover at stall warner. Which i think should be a test item.

[Mach Jump]

Most instructors will have never done a fully developed stall in that configuration why would they give it to a student converting?

Its recover on the stall warner in that configuration. Which is a piece of piss.

M_J. Are you really telling me that, for training purposes, fully developed stalls are only to be carried out wings level, power off, clean? :ooh:

Thing. Not a horror story, :rolleyes: just a significant difference between the PA28 and the C150/152.

[thing]

But surely you wouldn't do a go round with full flap? I'm not an instructor so am interested to hear why you would do that.

[Mach Jump]

But surely you wouldn't do a go round with full flap?

If you are in the final stages of the approach, with full flap, and someone taxys onto the runway in front of you, I don't know what else you can do. I'm hoping that you practised these during your training.

[thing]

Well in a 152 you would select full power, 10 degrees and pitch for 54 kts. Why would you go around with full flap?

[Mach Jump]

Well in a 152 you would select full power, 10 degrees and pitch for 54 kts.

That sounds like a reasonable go around with full flap to me.

I think you've misunderstood BEB's suggestion. He means a simulated 'go around' with full flap, where the pilot forgets to retract the flap and tries to climb. (At a safe height of course, not during a real 'go around')

[mad_jock]

you lot are inventing stuff that's not required.

All your doing is making PPL's not want to go anywhere near schools or instructors.

And yes that's all that's required because prevention of getting into the stall attitude is better than and safer than the cure.

Shock horror I have gone flying solo in 3 types without a check out at all. Just read the POH and fired the engine up and then flew the length of Britain without stalling then picked up another aircraft and flew back again managing against all odds not to stall again.

He means a simulated 'go around' with full flap, where the pilot forgets to retract the flap and tries to climb. (At a safe height of course, not during a real 'go around')

Absoutley nothing will happen stall wise if the pilot has been trained to attitude fly and sets the normal climb attitude of 10 degrees. They won't climb mind but that should then give them a hint that they haven't put the flaps away.

[glendalegoon]

there is a possiblity the flaps won't come up due to electrical failure

but this is rare of course

[thing]

They won't climb mind but that should then give them a hint that they haven't put the flaps away. Don't know why (blame the usquebaugh) but that has left me with tears streaming down my face. Well done that man!

Edit: Well Matt, now you know that you will die as soon as you look at a 152 are you glad you asked the question? :ok:

[Mach Jump]

Absoutley nothing will happen stall wise if the pilot has been trained to attitude fly and sets the normal climb attitude of 10 degrees.

I'm sure you are right MJ, but sadly many pilots have not been so well trained, and we have to cater for them as well.

there is a possibility the flaps won't come up due to electrical failure

but this is rare of course

This is rare, but I have seen it happen, and it was 'interesting' watching that C150 do a whole circuit with full flap.

MJ:ok:

[Glasgow_Flyer]

MJ - I agree with what your saying re stall recovery in app config - and that was true for me when I was in Scotland.

Arrive in Aus - I found myself having to demonstrate recovery (actually in a 152 in app config) in a fully developed stall.

I was like - erm, this is new and quite good fun, but surly I've done this before - perhaps not!

[mad_jock]

and we have to cater for them as well.

We don't all that happens with instructors gold plating is that it drives punters away from flying and schools.

Personally I always did very relaxed checkouts and type differences training. the 30mins in the circuit was the norm.

Then when we got back I told them they were good to go and said we had an advanced handling courses, including short grass strips, mountain flying etc etc. And because they had enjoyed the checkout/differences training pretty much all of them came back for additional none required training.

If they booked the plane solo and were by themselves and spotted that we had a free instructor slot they would quite often ask for the instructor to come along as well and go and do some general handling including stalls out of any situations that both of us could think of.

But as I always taught reduce the AoA wings level, power up and clean up. We mostly got bored of that quite quickly and then started the PFL game.

Maybe the reason why I did 900hours a year when I was a full time instructor.

And to my knowledge none of mine have crashed so far touch wood.

[Pace]

I too used to be thrown a set of keys and told take that for a company I was involved in some 15 yrs back.

These were not simple aeroplanes like a PA28 or 152.

As MJ says spend some time with the POH and then again sit in the aircraft and working across finger touch everything so you know where and what everything is.

All SEPs are a variation on a theme and its more a case of finding out the differences which you can usually count on one hand.
I would question anyone expecting more than an hour to convert from a PA28 to a C150 as being more interested in your wallet

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

All SEPs are a variation on a theme and its more a case of finding out the differences which you can usually count on one hand.
I would question anyone expecting more than an hour to convert from a PA28 to a C150 as being more interested in your wallet

Not uniquely, I have a big book of kneeboard cards I've produced for my own use, which remind me of the key values and features of whatever I happen to be flying next. That said, each one probably took me half a day with the manuals to produce.

Which is an important point I think. There's far too much of a culture in the UK of "just get in and fly it". There is a reason why we have POHs and similar documents - it's to learn about the aeroplane before you get in it. The pilot who takes their time with the books to get to know the aeroplane, probably will do it inside an hour.

The pilot who doesn't will take more hours, and the instructor who doesn't ask pilots to spend some book time before flying, is probably just after the hours.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But surely you wouldn't do a go round with full flap?
What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

[mad_jock]

What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

H'mm some take there hands off everything and scream like a girl but refuse to fly the approach at 65knts instead of the 80knts which their instructor told them they would die horribly if they went slower than.

Just reminded me of talking to the old girl next door.

She was sent down to leeds to pick up a Lancaster bomber for delivery up to Inverness all she had was hand written pilot notes on the train to read for her first flight with another lady who hadn't flown one before. Then she got driven up to Fern to pick up a spit but that was ok because she had flown one of them before. All with the grand total of 120 hours flying.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just reminded me of talking to the old girl next door.

She was sent down to leeds to pick up a Lancaster bomber for delivery up to Inverness all she had was hand written pilot notes on the train to read for her first flight with another lady who hadn't flown one before. Then she got driven up to Fern to pick up a spit but that was ok because she had flown one of them before. All with the grand total of 120 hours flying.

Ann Welch once told me that it was perfectly normal to turn up not knowing what you were going to fly, read how to get in and start whilst being driven to the aircraft, read how to take-off whilst warming up, and read how to land whilst in the cruise.

Amazing women (and a few men we shouldn't forget) the ATA, but not that many of them made it to the end of the war.

You can buy a set of those notes still, referred to as the "ATA Blue Book" from the Yorkshire Air Museum - I have a set, and they were £20 well spent just for the sheer fascination of it.

G

[thing]

What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Personally I would select ful power, flaps 10 and climb out at 54. I'm pretty sure though you're going to come back and tell me that it's wrong to do that.

[Mach Jump]

We don't all that happens with instructors gold plating is that it drives punters away from flying and schools.

It's not 'gold plating'. The whole point of 'conversion training' is to demonstrate the significant differences between the new aircraft and what the pilot is used to. After the benign nature of the PA28 in the stall The rather abrupt wing drop that the 152 often produces will be quite an eye opener.

but not that many of them made it to the end of the war.

The problem with wartime is we only hear the experiences of the survivors.

What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

Wombat. Don't encourage him/her. := I think we already established that Thing is deliberately misunderstanding the term 'full flap go around' just to keep the pxssxng contest going.


MJ:ok:

[thing]

I think we already established that Thing is deliberately misunderstanding the term 'full flap go around' just to keep the pxssxng contest going.


I'm not (although you're right to be suspicious...:)). No one yet has answered my question. Why on earth would you do a go round with full flap? I'm not that long out of PPL training and I can assure you that it was hammered home to get the flap up as well as applying full power. How much flap you take off being dependent of what you are flying. Can anyone just answer the question instead of beating around the bush?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Full flap approach, need to go around.

(1) Full power.

(2) Retract flaps in stages.

Therefore a go-around is typically initiated with full flaps, although it you've still got full flaps by 500ft, you may be missing something.

G

[Pace]

Also remember that I most aircraft full flap is mostly drag while Lower stages of flap lift! There is little harm in reducing flap from full to a lower number especially as you will reduce AOA to compensate for the less drag

Pace

[foxmoth]

30 minutes in the cct should do it. Any more than that and I would suspect they are taking the p*** out of your wallet

Lots of guys with plenty of experience saying this, I have flown with pilots who are fine with this, I have also flown with others who should be looking at this sort of time for a checkout but need WAY more, and that can be on an aircraft they have flown before. Personally, I would expect anyone with low hours doing a checkout on joining a new school to take an hour to satisfy that they are competent, but a conversion from Piper to Cessna or visa versa should be possible without anything much extra.
The ATA girls did a great job, but the circumstances were a little more exceptional, and if they DID bend one I suspect it would have been more acceptable than a low hour PPL bending a club machine.

[dubbleyew eight]

I cannot believe that "converting from a piper to a cessna" is even a topic for discussion.

bye the bye on my licence test flight the examiner required me to do a takeoff in the cessna with full flap.
I argued with him for half a runway but eventually he persuaded me.
all that happens is that you need to push a lot of nose down elevator to counter the centre of pressure movement.

you can actually takeoff with 40 degrees of flap.

[Desert185]

I think its a good idea to give a student or transitioning pilot a go around without being able to retract flaps. A failure of some sort or a popped CB that won't reset will make that a scenario that is best to have some previous experience rather than being a first time for a low time pilot. Of course, a mechanical flap handle might preclude that exercise...

Regarding flaps and performance, we had a few 182's in one particular organization. One had flap gap seals, and the rest didn't. Doing a no flap approach with the flap gap seal equipped airplane and comparing it's much flatter glide ratio to the others was a productive exercise.

[Pace]

I think its a good idea to give a student or transitioning pilot a go around without being able to retract flaps.

We are not talking about a PPL transitioning from a 150 to a retractable complex single we are talking about jumping from one simple single to another!
You would think we were talking about students
Any PPL should be perfectly capable of flying to 3000 feet and checking out the behaviour differences with full flap or part flap on their own.

So you really need an instructor to change from a PA28 to a C150? i think not. These are PPLs not students!

Really stinks of flying clubs out to make money

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Personally I would select ful power, flaps 10 and climb out at 54. I'm pretty sure though you're going to come back and tell me that it's wrong to do that.
Full power first, check that the aircraft is pointing in a sane direction and is still flying second, then flaps (to 20 in my case) as the third action. So for a second or three I am going around at full power - there's no way I'm going to faff around with the flaps before I've got the power on.

Instructor didn't complain when I did exactly that on a currency check ride the other day.

[foxmoth]

So you really need an instructor to change from a PA28 to a C150? i think not. These are PPLs not students!

Pace, how many PPL conversions/checkouts have you done? I can now jump into just about any single and fly it OK without reading the POH (if there is one I DO read it, but have flown aircraft that do not actually have one), but remember being very concerned converting just after qualifying and think that is the norm for most!

[Crash one]

Has anyone ever bought a car at a car auction in the winter (dark) then had to drive it out of their car park before it gets locked up, drive through a busy town trying to find the light switch, wiper switch, the window switch cos some prat left them open, adjust the seat, all without the chance to see things in daylight? Then find the fuel warning light on & have 10miles to go before you find a filling station? But you arrive home with the radio blaring, a full tank, all lights on, windows shut etc. what is the problem in broad daylight flying a slightly different aeroplane? Attitude! Feel! Get on with it! Or am I being bloody minded?

[phiggsbroadband]

There is one difference between Electric Flaps and Lever Flaps...


The transition time for Electric flaps is about 4 seconds for each stage
of flap. With the Handle, you can go from full flap to none in less than
a second (especially if it slips out of your fingers!).


So on a Cessna, for a go-around or T+G, Its just one movement of your right hand Right to Left over the Flaps, Mixture, Power, and Carb Heat. By the time you have reached the carb heat, the flaps will have almost finished their transit.

[Pace]

Pace, how many PPL conversions/checkouts have you done?

I have trained pilots up for a Citation SIC ratings and signed them off and sat in with numerous PPLs on a variety of singles and piston twins.

But as stated have literally years back had the keys thrown at me on complex singles I have never flown and got on with it.

Some time with the POH, Some time sitting static in the aircraft examining every switch and then flown off sometimes into IMC with such aircraft.
Its no big deal and I am nothing special :ok:

I really do think its either money making by the training establishments or there are some pretty incompetent pilots around.
As for a PPL yes PPL going from a PA28 TO c152 ??? :ugh: its a bit like driving a ford fiesta and needing instruction to drive a volkswagen polo. Your not going from a ford Fiesta to a formula 1 Car.

Pace

[foxmoth]

Has anyone ever bought a car at a car auction in the winter (dark) then had to drive it out of their car park before it gets locked up,
its a bit like driving a ford fiesta and needing instruction to drive a volkswagen polo.

Again, it depends on your experience - if you have done this a number of times, no problem. IF you have just passed your licence then you will be very nervous doing either and probably would like someone next to you - Also, of course, you are talking flying clubs that have minimum requirements and realistically are talking about an hour checkout - even with my experience I would not expect to go to an flying club that does not know me and be allowed to fly their aircraft with much less than a 45 min checkout!

[Pace]

Foxmouth

Again, it depends on your experience - if you have done this a number of times, no problem. IF you have just passed your licence then you will be very nervous doing either and probably would like someone next to you - Also, of course, you are talking flying clubs that have minimum requirements and realistically are talking about an hour checkout - even with my experience I would not expect to go to an flying club that does not know me and be allowed to fly their aircraft with much less than a 45 min checkout!

I appreciate that if you turn up at a flying club unknown they will want some sort of checkout. Sadly while many licensed pilots are competent many are totally incompetent :E and I would be unhappy sending my nearest and dearest up for a flight with them (can think of quite a few who fill that category)

Having done 45 minutes in a PA28 and determined you are well up to speed and competent I see no reason why they should demand another checkout on an equal aircraft like a 150. Unless their motives are to do with money.

Pace

[foxmoth]

Pace,

Well, using my incorrect user name after having been put right before is either deliberately insulting or careless ignorance! I feel very insulted!

Personally I would agree that a conversion for an experienced pilot from Piper to Cessna should need very little, but I think in real life you will be hard pushed to find a club that will NOT require a full hour conversion as a minimum. For inexperienced pilots most DO need this and I think your experience might blind you to how poor some can be! I did point out though that most schools should be able to do the conversion WITH the club checkout. More realistic for a Pa28 pilot would be to do an hour checkout with conversion and then a few circuits to satisfy them you are still ok on the Pa28.

[Mach Jump]

Well, the OP, if anyone can remember him, told us that he had 80 hours and inferred that the PA28 was the only aircraft he had flown.

Matt.

I hope you managed to gain some useful info from this thread dispite the bickering.

MJ:ok:

[Pace]

Foxmoth

Whoops done it again :E i know you won't believe me but totally unintentional at least its given me an embarrassed laugh and I need a laugh just now ;)

Pace

[foxmoth]

I would not mind, but it is an aircraft type, so would expect anyone who knows aircraft to get it right!

[Pace]

Its me miles away while typing sorry :uhoh: FOXMOTH maybe change the aircraft name to FoxMouth ??? :E

[Mach Jump]

I was once given a very stern rebuke by an elderly lady doctor when I referred to her aircraft as a Foxmoth.

'This, young man, is a Hornetmoth! not a Foxmoth!' :eek: (Long time since I was called a 'young man')

You probably know who I mean ;)

MJ:ok:

[foxmoth]

FOXMOTH maybe change the aircraft name to FoxMouth ???
Really thing you should wash your mouth out for that. Anyway, bit difficult given that dH is no longer going and those that hold the ticket would not be interested.
I was once given a very stern rebuke by an elderly lady doctor when I referred to her aircraft as a Foxmoth.

'This, young man, is a Hornetmoth! not a Foxmoth!' (Long time since I was called a 'young man')

You probably know who I mean

MJ

Yes, I know the lady in question, and yes, a very different aircraft, flown and liked them both - and I think I have been called "young man" by her as well, but a few years ago, sadly she is no longer with us!

[Piltdown Man]

There is only one plane worse than a C152 and that's a C150. Both are nasty little aircraft. They have wacking great engines, drink fuel like they have a leak yet are barely capable of dragging themselves into the sky. It is most unlikely you'll be able to take two adults and sufficient fuel to do anything more than taxiing. Take more time, save more money but stick to the PA28.

PM

[mad_jock]

Pilt you have forgotten to mention that other abortion the Aerobat.

[foxmoth]

That is a bit negative to the Cessna - personally I would not go for Piper OR Cessna - To my mind there are many other better options, but for clubs/schools they make sense and it is then a case of what fits what you are trying to achieve, if a C150/2 fits the bill and the price is right, go for it!

[Mach Jump]

Cessna 150/152s, and Piper PA28s for that matter, 'do exactly what they say on the tin'. They are safe, stable, simple aeroplanes that are virtually indestructible in the training role.

It's not really fair to criticise them for being dull and boring.

MJ:ok:

[foxmoth]

It's not really fair to criticise them for being dull and boring.
Yes it is - they ARE dull and boring, and I see no reason NOT to criticise them for that! A bit like the Top gear team being asked to review the Fiat 500!

[Mach Jump]

Hahaha :)

Foxmoth. But they were designed to be like that, and they do it very well! I even feel the need to defend 'that abortion' the Cessna Aerobat. Elevator so heavy at speed that you needed two hands to pull 6G, but in it's time, probably introduced more people to aerobatics than any other type. :E

MJ:ok:

[mad_jock]

Aye but there is an option which isn't dull and boring in the same class which doesn't have all the nasty's designed out of it.

The PA38 tomahawk.

[Mach Jump]

MJ yes. It would have become a great trainer if it had stayed in production and had the crappy doors and weak maingear sorted out. Flew very well though and had lots of great features. Wide cockpit, great viz, user friendly fuel system, etc. :)

There might even have been a PA38 Aerobat one day! Now that would have been something! ;)

MJ:ok:

[DeeCee]

Chuck, I can hear you banging your head!

[glendalegoon]

FYI:

One reason to get a CHECKOUT (as we call them in the USA, instead of conversion) is because many places have an insurance policy which requires a checkout.

So much talk about money. Yes, money matters, but maybe spend more time making money and then fly more?


Anyone out there ever fly a Varga Kachina? Now that is a fun little plane.

[Mach Jump]

Hi Glendale. Yes, a 'checkout' here, is what you do with an instructor on a familiar type when you are out of practice, or move to a new club. Usually just a few circuits. A 'conversion' is moving to a new type. A 'conversion' would count as a 'checkout' too, but not usually the other way around. Not much different to over there I imagine.

Kachina is a great little aeroplane. I was just a bit long legged for it though. :O

MJ:ok:

[glendalegoon]

mach jump

I never flew the kachina from the front, only from the back seat. might be more room that way! took a girl for a ride with the canopy open...great fun.

so many different terms we have. what you call a checkout, we might call ''currency".

on to the wild blue.

[Pace]

Glendlegoon

Insurance stipulations are often added by the operator to suit their own interests!
I used to fly a Seneca Five for a private owner! The aircraft was managed for him including a pool of pilots available! This operator had high twin hours added to the insurance requirements for more reasons than just to bring down the premiums ! He used that as a reason to the non pilot owner to keep up the day rates and ward off lower hours pilots who offered to fly for the owner at much lower rates!
So don't think the big bad insurance companies unilaterally add all these restrictions the operators play a part too and often either for protectionism or to increase usage!' Not our fault mate that you have to do a 10 hr conversion! Bloody insurance!" :{
Nice little aircraft which was much much more fun than the PA28 was the Grumman Tiger

Pace

[strake]

Of course you can jump from one SEP into another and just 'bash orf'.

I saw James Garner and Donald 'Splendid' Pleasence do it in 'The Great Escape' and that was a true story..wasn't it?

Mind you, I think they crashed...

[strake]

Nice little aircraft which was much much more fun than the PA28 was the Grumman Tiger
Ah yes but what about the deadly free-castoring nose-wheel eh?

[Piper.Classique]

Quote:
Nice little aircraft which was much much more fun than the PA28 was the Grumman Tiger
Ah yes but what about the deadly free-castoring nose-wheel eh?



What, like on the Rallye? Now there is an aeroplane any monkey could fly! With or without a checkout :E

[foxmoth]

The PA38 tomahawk

Nope - still dull and boring IMHO, try something like the Pup150 or metal Robin if you want a non boring equivelant.:ok:

[Meldrew]

All this talk about real aeroplanes, let's get into taildraggers if you really want to frighten a new pilot! ( tongue firmly in cheek)

[Pace]

Meldrew

Taildraggers ??? YES then you do need a conversion and more :ok:

Pace

[strake]

Fond memories of lurching from side to side down the strip at Clacton on my first attempt in a Cub with the instructor laughing herself silly behind me. 'That's right, use all the strip..you've paid for it..'

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Taildraggers are not the demons some make out. I did my PPL back in the late 70s on C150s, and immediately converted onto the lovely dH Chipmunk in abut 5 hours.

Now there's an aeroplane with exquisite handling. I've never flown better. Well worth putting up with the cold in winter (no heater), the short range (2.5 hours safe max), the rattles and draughts, the total lack of stowage space, and the oil you get smeared in.

If you fly one, it'll spoil you anything else.

Ah! de Havilland!

[Meldrew]

A point worth making for the uninitiated. If you learn to fly on a tail dragger, the conversion to a nose wheel aircraft should be fairly simple. ( half and hour for me) learn on a nose wheel aircraft and then the conversion may take a few hours as stated above.

[Desert185]

I remember when I thought a 172 was a big airplane. Now I think its boring and I don't get bored. Much rather fly my son's nice 170B than a 172.

I also remember checking myself out in a taildragger. It was a Citabria, and before one needed an endorsement. Later that day I gave dual in it to a fellow instructor. The good old days...

Did work for a Piper dealer for awhile. Got to fly all the Cherokees, 180 horse Arrow and Comanches. They had a pretty active salesman who took me under his wing and let me fly a nice variety of airplanes that passed through. Fun job for a young CFI.

[mad_jock]

PA38? Whats wrong with the doors they are great.

And weak main gear, I have seen rubber on the underside of the wing after a student had planted it with another instructor.

Crappy trimmer system I will give you. But in that group of training heaps its the best of the lot.

[Mach Jump]

I have seen rubber on the underside of the wing.....

Never seen rubber on the underside of a Cessna wing! :p

Oh yes! I forgot about the awful trim system. ;)




MJ:ok:

[Pace]

Mad Jock

Never had the pleasure :ugh: but heard that you could watch the tail twist in spins :E

As with Desert above I was lucky in being involved with a Bournemouth company and it was very much the case of can you take that! Never flown one was met with you will be fine :E

i can remember leaving Bournemouth straight into a 600 foot over cast in a Trinidad. this one had one of those fangled weeping wing things added.
Going IMC I was met with a strong chemical smell which got me thinking until I discovered there was a tiny switch near your knee to operate the fluid. I had knocked it on :ok:

But usually you can operate a generic check list and add or subtract bits to suit:ok: They are all pretty similar and it does not take long to feel the handling traits.

so manipulated insurance requirements to generate hours sold. Bit like government with Green taxes!!! Not our fault gov its the insurance :ugh: and in the green tax thing saving the planet.

but then there are some pretty crap pilots out there who I would not even send the hated next door neighbours dog up with.
the type who land on a wing and a prayer with everything crossed in the hope that it all turns out ok! More like passengers in the procedure rather than pilots who know what they are doing and ahead of the game.

Pace

[foxmoth]

What's wrong with it?
Poorly harmonised controls ( sensitive in pitch,but rubbish in roll), poor trimmer, t tail means a lot of trim changes that should be taught are not there (good in a tourer but I would say not in a trainer).
Stalls and spins well and good cockpit layout/visibility, but still rather have a Pup or a Robin.

[Mach Jump]

.....but still rather have a Pup.....


Me too. Just not enough Pups to go around I guess. :sad:


MJ:ok:

[thing]

Full power first, check that the aircraft is pointing in a sane direction and is still flying second, then flaps (to 20 in my case) as the third action. So for a second or three I am going around at full power - there's no way I'm going to faff around with the flaps before I've got the power on.

Instructor didn't complain when I did exactly that on a currency check ride the other day.

Yeah, so er...we agree then.

[fujii]

Five pages, 82 posts. The OP could have read the POH and done a check flight by now.

[Mach Jump]

The OP could have read the POH and done a check flight by now

Sadly I think the OP will have given up on this thread as soon as it became a pxxxxxg contest. :(



MJ:ok:

[Pace]

He could have also paid a lot more of his hard earned cash than he needed to by now converting from a Ford fiesta to a Volkwagen polo. ;)

Pace

[Mach Jump]

He could have also paid a lot more of his hard earned cash than he needed to by now converting from a Ford fiesta to a Volkswagen polo.


:=:p

MJ:ok:

[Desert185]

As with Desert above I was lucky in being involved with a Bournemouth company and it was very much the case of can you take that! Never flown one was met with you will be fine

On a somewhat complex airplane like a 421, Baron or a Skymaster 337, etc., at the very least I would visually check for adequate fuel in the tanks, know the fuel system, know the emergency gear extend and know Vmc, if applicable (this was before red and blue lines on the AI)...and of course, a guy has to know his limitations.

[Pace]

Yes agreed but these were all singles apart from an awful Seneca 1 and an absolute must is to read the POH as well as cold touching every knob and switch if you are to take an aircraft you do not know

Pace

[mad_jock]

I was just thinking about the way I first flew the different SEP types I have flown.

C150/C152 PPL in it.

PA28-180 - 2 of us went to FSO with an instructor to pick up our FAA tickets and did our bi-annual on the way there and on the way back.

PA28 slab wing trimmer on the roof. Got in and flew it.

C172- check out next time I went back to the US for hour building 45mins.

robin- got in and flew it

Katana- 1 hour in the circuit with a bloke on his FIC for his mutual. With instructions to screw with his head which I did.

Garda Horizon- maint trip with owner when the wx was pants.

PA38- 3 circuits then sent on my way for a ferry to swap aircraft for a star annual. Did some stalls and a spin or two over the vale of York on my way.

Arrow- got in and flew it.

And there were another three or 4 permit types which was just a chat with the owner before flying them somewhere.

So as such I have never done a formal differences training on any SEP type. And never scared myself either on any of them.

Never flown a MEP as PIC.

[500ft]

C150/C152 PPL in it.

PA28-180 - 2 of us went to FSO with an instructor to pick up our FAA tickets and did our bi-annual on the way there and on the way back.

PA28 slab wing trimmer on the roof. Got in and flew it.

C172- check out next time I went back to the US for hour building 45mins.

robin- got in and flew it

Katana- 1 hour in the circuit with a bloke on his FIC for his mutual. With instructions to screw with his head which I did.

Garda Horizon- maint trip with owner when the wx was pants.

PA38- 3 circuits then sent on my way for a ferry to swap aircraft for a star annual. Did some stalls and a spin or two over the vale of York on my way.

Arrow- got in and flew it.
Well down this way those all require their own type rating. And currency in one doesn't mean currency in another.

[mad_jock]

We just have SEP class.

And you only need currency for carrying pax in the class students count as flight crew. Nothing stopping you not flying any thing in the class for 12 months then jumping in solo and flying off.

Done it myself in the C172 not flown one for 3 years and 9 months since I last flew a SEP. Day job is flying a twin TP. Then went flying with I might add full permission of the insurance company for a maint ferry.

[A and C]

It strikes me that you are over regulated by people who have no idea that one SEP is much like another.

I blame the blood sucking leaches that are draining society white (some call them Lawyers) who are making improper use of the law and forcing airworthiness authorities to legislate far beyond what common sense dictates.

If trained to a reasonable standard any PPL holder should having spent time reading the POH be able to get to grips with most SEP's albeit that some powerful aerobatic types are going to require a little more work.

However simple airmanship should tell a PPL holder with 50 hours in a C152 that he will need a fair deal of instruction to fly an Extra 300 NOT a bunch of restrictive regulations.

I see no aircraft in Mad Jocks list that require any more than a good look at the POH and a quick circuit with an instructor to get a competent PPL up to speed to fly.

[Thud105]

So in NZ do they literally write C-152, C-172, PA-28 etc etc on your licence?
Those licences must be mighty big (or the font mighty small).

[foxmoth]

I see no aircraft in Mad Jocks list that require any more than a good look at the POH and a quick circuit with an instructor to get a competent PPL up to speed to fly.

Whilst this is true, you have to look at what is going on when most people change type, most are doing it in a school environment and often having changed school/club or joining a group where their capabilities are unknown. As an instructor I do conversions/checkouts for a couple of groups and this will vary from three or four trips (unusual, but has been needed - I am not including the 10 hours on type that the insurance company occasionally demands!) down to about 45mins chock to chock - the 45 mins I would agree was probably more than the guy actually NEEDED, but I would have felt I was not looking after the group interests if I had done less and not satisfied myself 100% that I had shown all that I needed to show and I feel for the types involved would be a minimum.
Anyway, what is the rush to do it in minimum hours?
I do think there are some ridiculous requirements though - I believe Goodwood require 5 hours to convert to their glass screen Cessnas, and flew a Harvard many moons ago that the insurance company wanted over 50 hours on aircraft over 250HP - but no requirement for tailwheel time (before the days of tailwheel endorsement)!

[Pace]

Obviously if you turn up at a flying club unknown they will want a checkout as they will want to see how competent a pilot you are who has walked through their door.

But simple aircraft to simple aircraft one circuit and a bit of time on the POH is all that should be required.

I was looking at buying some Cirrus hours until I was informed there was a required 10 hrs checkout regardless of experience levels at a cost of over £2000 Crazy! Insurance requirement or operator manipulated insurance requirement?
What is so unique about the Cirrus as an aeroplane NOTHING! if its the displays should you be learning those while in the air at £200 plus per hour? or with the aircraft hooked up on the ground so you can concentrate totally or even better like Garmin did with the 550 A pretty good simulation for a home computer?

Sorry but it all stinks of making money out of the punter

Pace

[mad_jock]

I don't know the school I worked at had a standard 3 circuit checkout.

I did ask the boss if we shouldn't be doing more and he just said no it just annoys the punters.

And to be fair during the summer we had 4 aircraft in the air for 7 plus hours a day. And in the year I was there we didn't have any incidents.

But then again we got a lot of unrequired requests for instructor flights. Maybe the fact that the punters didn't feel they were getting shafted for check flights and skills tests every time they came in made them less bitter and twisted about going up with an instructor.

[Local Variation]

Back to the question in hand.

The PA28 will feel bigger, heavier and more solid in flight. Its also heavier to pull out the hanger! It doesn't suffer the nose wheel shimmy of the 152 when on the ground. The white arc extends further allowing higher speed flap settings, which can be very useful, particularly on the Archer. The fuel pump and tank change need memorising. You can not check the effects of the trimmer and rudder on the ground from inside as you can not see out the back. Sometimes, the door is a pain to latch and needs a jolt top and bottom to make sure it is shut properly.

There is far more room and space for all manner of things including your legs if you are tall. Hence, it feels more refined.

An hour of general handling stalls etc, followed by some circuits will do you to get the feel, speeds and settings sorted. You'll probably find that you'll never set foot in a 152 again if you're post PPL training.

[Piper.Classique]

Local Variation - I am sure you are right about the differences but it's actually the other way round. The OP (who seems to have quite understandably vanished) is converting from the Pa 28.
IMO the Cessna is a pretty decent aircraft. Easy to fly acceptably well, but takes more work to make it sing.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I agree with local Variation. His comments are a pretty good summary.

As for how long it takes to check out well I have a few comments on that.

1) It is not your airplane that you are flying in, it belongs to someone else. As the owners they are entitled to demand what ever they want as a checkout. Don't like it, go else where or buy your own aircraft

2) My experience with doing checkouts is that the time required varies all over the map. However most PPL's showed significant weaknesses in basic flying skills. A bit, to a lot, of extra time was required to address those skill deficits, in addition to showing the handling differences.

3) The people that complain the most about the length of the checkout were usually the worst pilots.

If I where doing the checkout with the OP then it would consist of about an hour on the ground doing a complete review of the POH with some W & B calculations, a few performance calculations and then a complete walk around with an emphasis on what in particular is prone to leaking/breaking/coming loose. We then sit in the cockpit and go over the normal and emergency checklist to get the pilot familiar with the cockpit and build some muscle memory.

The flight will review, steep turns, slow flight, departure and arrival stall scenarios, an in flight emergency that will develop into a PFL, and enough circuits to show take off and landing proficiency.

Total air time will be about an hour if there is good solid basic flying skills. If skills are not there then however long it takes. The current record was a guy who needed 10 hrs of additional dual before he was safe to take the airplane.:ugh:

[Local Variation]

Aah well spotted Mr Classique!

In which case, the 152 will feel smaller, lighter and less solid in flight and is easier to pull out the hanger......

[Big Pistons Forever]

Me too ............:O

[A and C]

I got the 10 hour conversion course crap from the insurance company and we told them we would take all our business away if they insisted apon this condition but did look a lot more carefully at the named pilots.

They backed down quite quickly......... After all it's just another fixed gear SEP with the option of landing by parachute.

[Falcoflyer]

There's a Tomahawk at Goodwood.

[KandiFloss]

'There's a Tomahawk at Goodwood' ... and there it should stay ... on the ground! Only kidding :eek::eek:

When I set about trying to gain my PPL in USA (hmmm) I started flying the C-152 but hated how twitchy it was. I struggled to land it, but not sure if that was due to poor instruction. I still hadn't gone solo at 20 hours :mad: . I changed to the PA-28 (Cadet) and within 4 hours (2 flights) i'd gone solo. I said that i'd never fly the 152 again.

A few years ago (due to cost mainly) I decided to try flying the 152 again. Ive flown it ever since! Not flown since Feb 2013 (due to having a baby and studying for my ATPL ), but am looking forward to getting back in the saddle in summer ... in a 152 :D

[slam525i]

I recently went the other way from 152/172 to a PA28-181.

Differences:
The two doors below the wing is much easier when you keep forgetting stuff in the flight bag for the walk around.

You will dent your head on a 152's wing, and the flaps on a 172.

Inspection of gear, fuel, brakes and wing is much easier on the Cessna.

The 152/172 landing gear is not directly connected to the rudder. It's via a bungee/spring system. I find I use a lot more differential brakes on the Cessnas.

The stall warning is mechanical in the Cessna.

No static-drain port on the Cessna. No alt-static at all in the 152.

Electric flaps are nice (Doesn't look like a ruddy great hand-brake to passengers), but don't give you the same control-feel as in the Piper.

The 152's fuel switch is either on or off. 1 less thing to worry about.

In flying, the 152 is lighter, less wing loading. It's less stable, but more nimble. I find it more fun, but probably not the passengers.

The 152, loaded in utility category, is spin approved. Have fun. :ok: (If you know what you're doing, legal requirements, etc. etc.)

The tube-steel gears on the Cessnas will result in bounces rather than thumps if you land it a little hard. The Piper makes a crap pilot like me seem like a genius at landing. I'll still bounce the Cessnas on occasion, but my only "thump" landing in the Piper was the first one. All of the rest have been "greasers" and I don't know why. (well, I do, some low wing, ground effect, etc. etc., but I never really "felt" the difference. I just flew them.)

All of that having been said:

FLY THE AIRPLANE. All of these differences are minor, and the airplane tells you what it wants from you. I've flown the a few Cessna types, this Piper, and a few tail draggers and in the end, they're all airplanes and the fly very similarly. Switching between types is a great way to learn to feel the airplane.

[Ampage]

Go 152 Aerobat ;) - That might actually warrant some 'conversion' :E

[Exiled Martian]

Apologies for the thread hijack (not that it matters since the OP seems MIA) but could anyone elaborate on what to expect going from a PA28-161 to a C172? I basically managed to book some 172 time this upcoming weekend & for the better part of my hourbuilding stint, I have been flying the PA28 (DA40 & Grob115 too) religiously. Fancied a change of type so decide to add the C172 to my resume... any advice/hints/tips will be much appreciated prior to my checkout come Saturday??? :}

[Mach Jump]

any advice/hints/tips

Have a good read of the POH before you start, and be familiar with W&B and takeoff/ landing performance.

The fuel guages are almost useless, so be sure you have a step ladder and a dipstick to check the tanks before you fly.

The 172 flies much like a Warrior, except that use of the rudder is more important to maitian balance.The speeds for most things are very similar. The big thing you will notice is the complete lack of visibility into the turn, so have a good look before turning.

The stall can be a surprise, after the other aircraft yoiu are used to. Expect quite a hefty wing drop at the stall in the approach config. especially if you forget to prevent yaw with the rudder.

On landing, the back pressure on the controls to hold the landing attitude will seem huge with just two in the front, so be sure you are trimmed properly on the approch, and at the right speed at the threshold.

Be sure to practce a couple of 'go arounds' from full flap approaches, as this produces a large pitch up that you have to resist, at the same time as retracting the flap to 20


MJ:ok:

[Exiled Martian]

Understood MJ,

I just been consulting Google & so far managed to gather some insightful materials (checklist/notes) on the C172, all generic stuff ofcourse but yes I will be sure to thumb through the POH & get acquainted with the WB figures that are more 'specific' to the aircraft I'll be checking out in. Many thanks for the golden nuggets dropped in your posts regarding stall/landing tips! Ha! yea that high wing is going to take slight getting used to after flying low winged ships all this time:ok:

[slam525i]

You don't need a ladder to get on the strut of a 172. There's a step on the side of the nose and a step on the strut. You only need one for the 177 and bigger Cessnas.

Read what I wrote earlier about the rudder/nose-wheel connection.

Make sure the flap-switch on the 172 isn't sticky. In some cases, you can let go of the switch but the flaps keep going down. Not a good thing if you're low, slow, and have no throttle.

While on the topic of flaps, older models with 40 degree barn-door flaps will let you stop-and-drop the airplane. Fantastic stuff. Just don't try to climb like that.

Still on the topic of flaps, the placards on the 172 say to avoid slips with the flaps down. It's not a huge deal. It causes a weird airflow over the elevators that makes them pulse against you, but you maintain elevator control despite the weirdness. If you need to slip it with flaps, do it. But try to plan around it.

What Mach Jump said about the flare is right. LOTS of back pressure. And on the go-around, LOTS of forward pressure. I like to trim for about 75. Trimming for a lower speed = more forward pressure on the go-around.

[Flyingmac]

You don't need a ladder to get on the strut of a 172. There's a step on the
side of the nose and a step on the strut.





Depends on the Model.

[phiggsbroadband]

Quote...


''He could have also paid a lot more of his hard earned cash than he needed to by now converting from a Ford fiesta to a Volkswagen polo.''




I've just converted from a Ford Focus to a Honda Civic, and have still to find out how the Sat-Nav or Voice Commands work...

[Mach Jump]

You don't need a ladder to get on the strut of a 172. There's a step on the side of the nose and a step on the strut. You only need one for the 177 and bigger Cessnas.


The step and handle kit was an optional extra on the strutted Cessnas. Most didn't opt for it. Don't climb on the strut unless it has the step.

...the placards on the 172 say to avoid slips with the flaps down. It's not a huge deal. :=

Best to stick with the placards. The effect of airflow over the tail varies with loading and speed. Sideslipping can also affect the ASI reading. On poorly maintained examples, it can also push the flaps sideways far enough to restrict the ailerons.

With so much flap, it's hard to imagine a situation where you would need to sideslip.


MJ:ok:

[slam525i]

The step and handle kit was an optional extra on the strutted Cessnas

My bad. I've never seen one without it. I didn't know it's optional.

Best to stick with the placards.

I agree that you should avoid it, just like the placard says, but note that the placard says to avoid it; it's not prohibited/restricted. There are some situations when it's useful. I don't think anyone's ever actually loss-control because of the weird airflow effects.

As for slipping causing ASI errors, yes, but every slip does. And they're fun. There's no reason to avoid slipping in general.

[AirborneAgain]

Best to stick with the placards.The placard doesn't say you can't sideslip with flaps. The POH says
If flap settings greater than 20° are used in sideslips with full rudder deflection, some elevator oscillation may be felt at normal approach speeds. However, this does not affect control of the airplane.

[A and C]

Quote -Best to stick with the placards. The effect of airflow over the tail varies with loading and speed. Sideslipping can also affect the ASI reading. On poorly maintained examples, it can also push the flaps sideways far enough to restrict the ailerons.

I guess the flaps moving sideways was one of the reason that Cessna introduced the SID's checks

[Mach Jump]

The placard doesn't say you can't sideslip with flaps. The POH says...


Ok. I dont want to get in a hair splitting contest over this, but I didn't say that sideslipping with flaps was prohibited, only that it should be avoided, as the placard says, and for the reasons I have stated.

I have played around with sideslipping cessnas with flap a lot for 'fun' when I was younger, and experienced both the sudden onset of quite severe pitching oscillations and aileron restriction. As slam says, ASI variation can be a feature of sideslipping in general, but seemed to me to be more evident on the 172.

I guess the flaps moving sideways was one of the reason that Cessna introduced the SID's checks

I guess it may be part of it. Sideslipping with those big flaps at the end of those long tracks must be quite fatiguing.

Just remebered a big plus for the Cessnas. They are a lot nicer to get in and out of when it's pxxxxxg with rain! :)


MJ:ok:

[Flyingmac]

Two points to remember when switching from the PA28 to C152.

Don't stand on the wing to get in, and don't wear a baseball hat around the flap trailing edge. You won't see it coming. The rest is easy.:)

[thing]

or Voice Commands work...

I don't understand my wife either.

[TimGriff6]

From Slam - 'The stall warning is mechanical in the Cessna'

Is it?

[A and C]

I think he is saying that the stall warning is not electric.

Not having seen a 172 recently I can only remember the stall warning system on the 150/152, this uses a slot in the leading edge of the wing that is connected to a horn in the cockpit, the reduction in air pressure at the leading edge due to the movement of the stagnation point as a result of increasing angle of attack activates the horn.

This system can be checked on the ground by placing your lips on the slot in the wing and sucking, I did at one time demonstrate this to students but have stopped the practice having seen a wasp exit the stall warning slot only seconds before I was about to demonstrate the system !

[The500man]

This system can be checked on the ground by placing your lips on the slot in the wing and sucking

You must really like your 150/152! ;)

[Mach Jump]

Not having seen a 172 recently I can only remember the stall warning system on the 150/152, this uses a slot in the leading edge of the wing that is connected to a horn in the cockpit, the reduction in air pressure at the leading edge due to the movement of the stagnation point as a result of increasing angle of attack activates the horn.

This system can be checked on the ground by placing your lips on the slot in the wing and sucking...

I believe I recall some of the very early C172s having electric stall warning systems, but the vast majority are exactly as A and C suggests.


MJ:ok:

[worrab]

having seen a wasp exit the stall warning slot
(Of course you can always suck through your clean hankie) ;)

[Exiled Martian]

While on the topic of flaps, older models with 40 degree barn-door flaps will let you stop-and-drop the airplane. Fantastic stuff. Just don't try to climb like that.

This was by far the coolest aspect of the 172 checkout. we were at 1200 (on QFE) feet on a very tight left base approach & he springs a glide approach to land scenario on me to end processions! As taught I get to trimming & banking keeping an oval shaped turn towards the tarmac. Get onto short finals (1/4 of a mile from runway threshold) & we are at about ~1000ft roughly, I commence with the flaps 40 input, simultaneously voicing my concerns to him about our attitude, i.e. being too high & that I doubt we would make the runway appropriately, also asked him if I was ok to use some side slip to get us down? he looked at me with a smirk & goes no need son, naturally the ASI decays at a drastic rate once the barn doors take full effect. He then tells me to pitch for 65 & keep that nose pointed at the tarmac. A solemn gulp escaped me as the attitude we were in was very :eek: as were literally coming down vertically in a steep nose dive style approach whilst holding ~65-70 knots.

I could not believe how fast (& safely) we were plummeting towards the ground & in close proximity to the runway numbers. During the dive he told me to get ready to catch the plane & level out on his hear say! Awaited his command & executed the catch & flare to perfection... even got a round applause via the RT from the AFISO as I taxied away retracting those marvelous flaps in the process :D:D:D