Is it really that bad?

[HumaidDaWorld]

For about 3 yrs I've been on Pprune and many of the things I hear about a pilots life is negative.

My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation. But with all the news and forums I have read I want to ask this question.

Is it really that bad?

[Sygyzy]

It's not as bad as it was before it was as bad as it is now.......

[Cliff Secord]

Day to day the nuts and bolts of the job can be very pleasant, rewarding and enjoyable.

Taken down to the bare bones nearly all commercial flying is basically 'shift work' which is well known to wear people out over time. The deeper problems can lie in the things behind the scenes, large financial burden, short term employment stability issues, a requirement to achieve at near as 100 percent of ability at all times coupled with shift work can make for a stressful old mix for what is basically a flesh and blood machine that is of course human IOS update 1.0 and only capable of so much.

It's a very expensive occupation there is no doubt. The risk burden is being pushed further onto the Pilot workforce; charging for training coupled with temporary/ fractional fixed term employment contracts. This happens in business of course when there is excess capacity and supply (look at air cargo at the minute!). The customer can pick and choose the terms and place greater 'risk' on the provider. In this case because there is an endless supply of keen people with desire to enter the profession. The airlines ever financially driven, successfully and insidiously shift what was previously their own burden further onto the employee or contractor. Unlike a business though, made up of many people, a Pilot has to carry that risk and burden on his todd which can make life quite a bumpy ride sometimes. This doesn't sit well with a job that requires clear thinking. It's been an area of focus on the industry for sometime now.

Just thoughts from myself, of course only my opinion. You'll perhaps hear some disagreement from the odd person sitting pretty in lovely jobs and good on them. But unfortunately a large amount of aircrew are not in that position.

[AtomKraft]

The further you get from the UK, the better it gets. :ok:

[ulugbek-pilot]

Doesn't matter if you are pilot or anyone else, life was always bad for pessimist:O. I've chosen a life of pilot cos I never liked a life of some office worker. Seeing the cloud from above, flying into it, kiss landing on the RW is incomparable.

[HumaidDaWorld]

That's one of the many reasons I want to be a pilot!;):O

[Superpilot]

HumaidDaWorld, I personally would not recommend this career to anyone. I have young cousins and nephews who are interested and I constantly remind their parents to steer them away. Guys like you (clever, young, super keen) are plentiful. There will never be a shortage of your sort. The industry has finally realised this and hence we as pilots are being abused left, right and centre. I now fly only in the Summer because I make 3 x more money in the Winter doing my old job. There are only 2 or 3 proper career airlines left in the UK and competition to get into them is extremely high.

[Cliff Secord]

[QUOTE]Doesn't matter if you are pilot or anyone else, life was always bad for pessimist. I've chosen a life of pilot cos I never liked a life of some office worker. Seeing the cloud from above, flying into it, kiss landing on the RW is incomparable.[QUOTE]

You see. That's great but it's very blinkered and not the most emotionally mature approach to planning your career. I love flying, I started years ago when young myself. However, when you're in your 30s/40s being made redundant with a mortgage to pay, young children and facing a choice of paying yet more tens of thousands for a type rating to fly on a contract that is as short and bendy as a horticultural contract picking vegetables in the fens, or leaving the country for weeks on a shady 'commuting' contract that gives you 10 days off after 6 weeks away then calling yourself an optimist might help but, not in my experience or in the experience of many of my friends and colleagues in that situation.

It's this "slipped the surly bonds of Earth, danced the skies on laughter-silvered balls" kind of juvenile hog that powers the problem. As long as there are enough professional hobbiest short term thinking young guys/girls being wooed with wonderfully arrogant high brow agencies and Airlines offering Faustian deals, then it goes on. Certainly in the UK.

Hypothetically, imagine a bizarre world where due to some Orwellian rules on recruitment of flight crew, only mature folk in their mid 30s with a house and family were eligible. The job would not be in this state as people would be less bent on sacrificing everything to do it. Of course, air fares would be higher. Naturally that scenario is rubbish and can't happen. It would be a very bad ethos, as young entrants bring great qualities of trainability and enthusiasm. The low fare dam gates opened years ago and it's hard to put the water back. Now a lot of the companies are at it. Some good eggs don't don't abuse this yearning like Monarch and Virgin Atlantic. But as Super Pilot said, they are very few in number.

I would add to the original poster given you're just 16 years old, I think you're very wise and sensible to look beyond the immediate attraction ask yourself the wider questions. That approach will serve you well in whatever you do.

[ulugbek-pilot]

Cliff you think I'm by my age of 35 didn't make it up, I've got family-children are growing and maybe I wouldn't want my children to become pilots. Who knows what might come up, I'd be proud if at least one of them would become. If I went back in the days when I had that choice I'd choose it again to feel that first take off first flight first landing. The thread starting kid has a dream and we as professional pilots shouldn't break it. And UK is not the only place where pilots are needed or not needed:). You tried it and chose your way after all. Being a pilot is worth dreaming of. Good luck kid, you won't regret.

[Woody12]

@HDW

it is very good and clever that you are asking this question. Even if you have a dream, it will not hurt to be realistic. When i was your age, i was also dreaming about being a pilot. Finally i managed the dream but after almost 6 years flying, i decided to leave this profession for a lot of reasons. I remember a poster saying: it is not because you love doing something, that it also needs to be a job. I agree, flying is fun, but if it is your job there are a lot of things, beside the fun factor, that comes into play.

You like travelling?? I would suggest to join the shipping industry. Always a lack of officers and well paid, and after done your years on sea, much more options regarding future perspectives.

Good luck whatever you choose!!:ok:

[Cliff Secord]

Ulugbek-pilot

My sincere apologies, I didn't mean to insuate you were juvenile in your approach and can see it does read like that which is incorrect of me.

My point was that I think the thinking can be quite blinkered when starting out young because flying is so alluring on the face of it. It's one thing as you know flying light aircraft and enjoying all those things but the career itself is changing and a choice to enter can bring many more ramifications.

At no point did I say to the original poster categorically not to do it or am I attempting to break his/her 'dream'. Cold honest sensible considerations are required when signing up to a career in flying. Its different if it was just flying for fun. Large loans and repayments are no respecter of dreams or age. When a 16 year old signs up to the army I doubt whether they just say 'don't worry about everything else you get to fire automatic weapons and dress up like Rambo, it's great fun'. They take pains to educate new entrants all areas of their chosen avenue, harsh bits and all.

I also didn't say the UK was the only area where this happens, I can only speak from experience of the UK and as I added it is only my opinion.

I've a couple of friends who are Officers in the UK Merchant Navy, they seem to like it. You're obviously away a lot but but all the training was paid for right from the start at college and there is real progression up the ranks.

All good talking points!

[thing]

If you want to fly because you love flying then the other option is to get a good job and fly for pleasure. I have several friends in the airline industry and frankly on balance I'm glad I didn't do it.

As a private pilot I can go where I want, when I want with who I want. The flying is still (probably more) enjoyable as it is hands on piloting skills 100% of the time and you fly low and slow enough to take in the sights. It's surprising how many airline pilots also fly light aircraft. Why do you suppose that is?

However having said that, if you have a dream then go for it because if you don't you will always wonder 'what if?'

[Wireless]

The invest 120k to earn 20k thread is quite relevant. The FAA 1500 ruling is interesting if not controversial to some people. UK used to have an unofficial system where sole experience did count and aided self balancing of terms, but of course it's changed a lot.

I know the UK market is different from the USA. I know many say regulation isn't the answer. Outside of flying in non safety critical industries it could be left to run its course and survival of the fittest philosophy left to do its thing with employees and employers. I can't see our regulator stepping in to referee this mess anytime soon as long as audits prove everything is safe on the face of it. Pretty damn obtuse of them.

If it were me I wouldn't bother just get a good Job and fly microlights about on weekends :O

[JB007]

Wouldn't want to do anything else but fly, even my big boring jet! But I certainly wouldn't want to start in this lark or be at the bottom of the ladder now!

[drivez]

Such a mixed bag. As someone near the beginning of their career my salary is higher than any of my mates from sixth form (doctors, engineers etc.), admittedly not as good as the old days but still good. Bear in mind whilst I reach my top earnings faster, in the long term they will probably earn more though.

Job security, yes well, the last few years have proved anyone anywhere can be stung. Even me, who as I previously mentioned is right at the start, well I've been laid off once already!

I think it's all about where you end up too. Some airlines are naturally better than others in all aspects. I won't go into that because these forums are full of posts about said airlines.

All I will say is for as much heartache and work it's taken to get where I am today, rewind 6 years and I would do it all again. Call me an optimist a pessimist a dreamer whatever, but I've always known I wanted to fly and the job has truly matched up to my expectations so far. Maybe at 35 I won't feel the same. But right now that's my thoughts.

[CaptainProp]

If I had fully understood the financial risks I took back then I would have never done it. Back then I did not realize just how hard it was to get a foot through the door to the first couple of jobs before you have experience enough to really be able to compete for good jobs. Today that financial risk is WAAAY higher than back then. We also had no internet to educate ourselves about the industry in the same way as is possible today. Today there is no excuse not knowing exactly what you get yourself and your future family in to.

You really want to fly? Try the military or if you are 25 or younger (and European passport holder) try getting in to BA's or Lufthansa's cadet schemes, or whatever they call hem these days. Not speaking German and failing the DLR test will rule out Lufthansa. While trying these routes, get yourself a proper education to fall back on.

A military career is abviously going to be very different depending on which country you were born in but at least you are not going to pay for your training and there are quite a few non-flying career options to continue your career, both inside and outside the armed forces. BA and Lufthansa are big companies that are likely to be around for some time in one form or another. Start at 22 and you'll have your first command (and more importantly a decent pay) by the time you're 35.

CP

[macdo]

Its still a good life so long as you accept (and ignore) the fact that it is degraded from the heady years between 1950 and 1990, when there was a heady wiff of the exotic about anything to do with aviation and those who were involved in it.
Air travel is now as mundane as a bowel movement for the passengers and staff, so recalibrate what you expect from a career in flying and you won't be disappointed. It is now effectively a technical shift work job, akin to many others. The barrier to entry is mostly financial which you can either live with or not. Luck and timing will play their part in dictating whether you end up in a better or not so good job. Subsequently, with time and reasonable diligence you will end up a Captain with a very reasonable salary and hopefully a pension at the end of it all.
Personally, I would view a 40 year career with a LoCo as hell. To avoid insanity I would try to plan a career which takes advantage of the good things aviation has to offer. So, maybe a few years with a LoCo to get some experience, then perhaps a move to the ME or FE, but with an exit plan. Then maybe a few years doing some quality contract work (when the kids are older and you are more mobile), finishing off with a couple of years tooling round in a regional jet just to top up the pension income. Finally, retirement and a share in a nice little light a/c (or a yacht) and a holiday home somewhere exotic.
Many options are out there which will make aviation an interesting and rewarding life, even if the romance of being a pilot has largely gone. But, the happiest pilots I have met are the ones who have had a varied worklife.
All IMHO, of course!

[JB007]

Good post by Macdo and reality from john_smith...

So, to sum up HumaidDaWorld;
COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...at every step of the way!

[RAT 5]

My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation.

Get a well paid job that gives you a balanced challenging life; balance of work and social. Go on long-haul holidays in business class: join a flying club, perhaps a flying group and then go and fun fly. Even gliding; paragliding or paramotoring. Do some aeros. Every time you leave the ground is a flying contraption it will be fun and because you chose to do so.

[odearyoleary]

THE AIRLINE CREATED PILOT SHORTAGE MYTH
In case you missed the impossible-to-ignore, cut-to-the-chase conclusion, the pilot shortage is another nasty side effect of the airline's industry race to the bottom of everything from employee wages and benefits to passenger service and comfort.
There's countless young guys waiting in the wings with a shiny new licence willing to work for next to nothing, a situation which is perfect for the airlines who ultimately will be more than happy to have the co-pilots fly for free and the captains on half their present income. This is their ultimate aim.

The flight schools also want everyone to believe in the mythical pilot shortage. Too many new pilots on the market means cheap wage dogs.
In 5 years with my current employer (cough), I have seen first officer salaries literally halved. HALVED. In five years.
ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND EURO DEBT AND 23,000 euro salary.

This is happening in the states also.
See this article..........

How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Phoenix Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/news-wire/2014/02/20/commuter-airlines-face-pilot-shortage.html)

[DooblerChina]

It depends where u work!! pprune seems to be full of people at the :mad: end of aviation working for average operators to average airports. There are lots of aviators at the other end of the spectrum who have amazing careers. Do you think they can be bothered contributing to most of the threads on here about whiz or ryan?

In my case it's amazing, I'm living the dream, In jan I had a week in Thailand and a week in Barbados, I'm currently sitting on a lounger in Jamaica waiting for beer o'clock and the view/crew is pretty good too.

[JB007]

And that's the wonderful variation of this career! Personally, done all that DC has described and can't think of anything worse, now I love been at home every-night in rural England!

Other mans grass and all that...

Enjoy your Red Stripe!

[CaptainProp]

Presumably at a different BA to the one where projected time to a short haul command is 23 years, and any long haul command is over 30 years?

Well my statement was meant more as general one, start early and you'll be ok. As to the 23 years to command that's not what I hear from my friends in BA but then again, hard to know exact numbers as there are so many variables.

[macdo]

DC, most your post is correct, there are lots of shabby jobs in aviation, with people desperate to move on. It is a realistic expectation that the first job you get post training may be one of these, but like everyone did 30 years ago trugging around in a Chieftain that had so many faults it was a miracle that you got to destination, you bide your time and move on when the opportunity arises. I think many of the gripes on pprune are from people who thought this was a one way ticket to an easy life, which it is not. Over the years there has been periodic attacks on the life in every airline going, remember when VS put the 747 classic fleet and its pilots out the door? VS was not flavour of the month for years. Ever spent the evening in the bar with a bunch of BA pilots? They could winge on forever about how awful their lot is! And actually, even the BA guys do have a point, nothing is as good as it was. Bottom of the seniority list, on a different contract and a bidline system does not make for happy bunnies.
I differ with you on your last point, I'm glad you are having an amazing time and I hope you can remember those times if the going gets tough for you. I enjoy the same lifestyle as you, but, that same lifestyle would have been absolute hell when I had a young wife and family back at home. Which was the precise point of my original post, you have to try and tailor your job and life so they don't clash and that is the way to enjoy a career as a pilot.
Enjoy the beach!

[FANS]

Be careful what you wish for!

Airline flying is a very different beast to 20 years ago, and people still haven't twigged that. The problem is that it'll get worse.

That said, as a 20 something year old it's hard to dissuade them when the other option is desk work of some sort!

[Superpilot]

How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Phoenix Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/news-wire/2014/02/20/commuter-airlines-face-pilot-shortage.html?page=1)

Faced with what it claims is this catastrophic, route-shedding, plane-grounding, hub-killing shortage of aviators, you'd think the airline industry would react with across-the-board pay increases. After all, isn't that how it works in a capitalistic society? When faced with a labor shortage, companies raise their pay scales to attract more workers. You'd think this would be especially true for airline pilots, whose learning curve is steep and expensive and in whose hands rest the lives of passengers and the reputation of their employers.

So beautifully stated.

[Greenlights]

My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation. But with all the news and forums I have read I want to ask this question.

Hey man,

I can tell you a bit from the inside. I flew for a LCC and quit, and changed career... Glad i did it sooner, because most of guys are stucked.
An advice, if you really want to try, get a degree first !! It is a MUST.

Bear in mind, a pilot has just a big "driving license" which can be revocated at anytime. You miss an altitude level, or you descent without clearance and you are screwed.
So, get a degree and have some skills other than piloting.

I tell you that because, I did not get a degree...and changing career after a pilot career is quite a challenge ! Yeah you know VOR, GPS, you know ILS approach, something that nobody cares in the other world on ground.

- Your dream is to travel ?
It was mine too. Believe me, I traveled less than most of my friends actually who have a normal job. Isn't it Ironic ? (or pathetic ?)
Most of the time I saw runways, aprons and cockpit. Yes in a LCC you do not have time to get out of the cockpit that much. Just enough time to pee and take the next flight plans, weather, notams. 30min of turn around is very short. (an tiring with time).
Maybe you think "oh, we can travel on our days OFF " . Hum...yes...but when you are OFF, honestly, you do not want to be in a plane or wait at the airport anymore. Being OFF means, doing something completely different. Stay at home and relax, doing sport etc.

The thing is don't confuse Travel and travel. A pilot's job is to carry people from A to B. The management does not pay you to Travel.
If you manage to land in a right seat, it will be for sure, a LCC.
So, if you sleep in another city, believe me, the firsts things you will do :
Shower and Sleep. Because you will have to enough fit for the next flight !

If you like to travel, the best thing is to do it during your real days OFF.
A pilot does not travel... no no no no and NO. It's quite an illusion.
Play flight simulator on your Computer, and you get pretty much the same feeling. You land, and you take off again...4 times each day.

- You love aviation. Of course. I would say that 99% of us, all the pilot, loved or love aviation. We all started with that in mind. :)

But, just to clarify one thing :
Loving something, does not mean to do it as a professionnal. You really should make the difference.
To avoid any disappointments, you should just like it. that's it.

Pilot is not a job, it's a lifestyle.
If you like to live as a bohemian, go for it. I would say it's a bit a nice job for youngs. But you approach 30, you really starts to think differently.
That's why, I told you : get a BACK UP PLAN.

Because, being stucked in a lifestyle that you dislike after a while, you will really feel like depressed. Maybe that's why we see negative comments on forums.

Be smart !

Any human being want to control his life a minimum. Being a pilot you don't control that much. You are a tool for the management.
You're young it's ok. But in case of change, be prepared.

Today I am lot happier with recreationnal flight on beside my new job. When I was in Asia, I did not have time to fly as hobby. But anyway, there were no flying clubs !! so...no choice... and I can tell I really missed it.

Bad or not, you will judge yourself (I hope for you), it's your life.

Would I recommend this career ? No...if it was free, yes why not. But considering the cost of training and the investment return, definetly no...especially with the career evolution now. Climing the ladder is harder and harder. Most fo the guys start in a LCC and will end up in a....LCC or in another job. Because 40 years in a LCC ? no way ! unless being a robot lol.

[Smudger]

Great question... answered by lots of well-informed posters giving their honest opinions in an attempt to fully answer the young man's desire for guidance... this is what Prune is all about.... not a place to air sour grapes or score points off others as is what happens most of the time... well done all !

[bizjetway]

Some honest interesting comments here.

I did the pilot career thing flying private jets first and then for 5 different airlines.
Over 15 years I saw the hours per month worked triple and the money stay the same. I then looked at colleagues that had gone off to fly long-haul and become Chief pilots and they were a nervous wreck. However, a few friends managed to find a good job flying a rich guys private jet 120-150 hrs a year and pocketing nice money.

I have always had a knack for business so I have managed to combine my love for flying with business and now sell and lease aircraft.

Would I suggest a pilot career to a young person? Well, as you know qualifying will cost you in region of £120K and the ROI is not very good. However, if you have the money and are young and REALLY want to give it a go... If you have a family it will be tough on them, this is why many pilots end up divorced. The guys doing well are usually single. However, if you manage to join a company like Lufthansa or British Airways you will end up with a good balance.

It all depends what you are looking for in life.

[Captain Boycott]

A good way forward if you can manage it would be
Get an education to degree level
Get life skills
Get employable skills outside aviation
Avoid paying top dollar for your flight training
Avoid the LCCs like the plague if you can

I was lucky to career change and remain in my previous career part time as well as flying big shiny jets (my previous career pays much better than the Locos)

Having a degree and life/work skills outside aviation keeps you out of the trap of been totally dependent on the industry

Doing both part time could help not become too downhearted with either, ironically you could find you would tend to miss the one your not doing.

As with the other fantastic advice on this thread my advice would definetely be:

Get a degree get life skills first have something else. Train as economically as you can, avoid the larger debt

I would offer second advice of:

Avoid paying top whack at a FTO and going straight into the RHS of a brand spanking new jet with no back up plan a relatively low wage and big training debt. Working a mad lifestyle ruining roster for a company that doesnt actually look after you or care for you

The sensible person would not clamour for this situation. And this is exactly the situation that many are falling into. Be smart. Dont get sucked into the hype or the marketing spiel,

Good luck - if you take the right approach it can still be the best job in the world, it seems you are doing the right research from the outset and there is some genuine and excellent advice on this thread

[wiggy]

However, if you manage to join a company like Lufthansa or British Airways you will end up with a good balance.

Personally I'd add the caveat " but only of you can get in on the current T&Cs". At at least one of those airlines some in management are licking their lips at the leverage the new EASA regulations will give them to fundamentally alter work patterns and lifestyles forever, and not for the better.

I really wish I could "gift" youngsters the career I had - 12 years pulling the wings off government hardware and then a quarter of a century :uhoh: on Long Haul....but I can't :(

The only advice I can give these days is do lots of research, don't believe the FTO's shiny brochures, and above all don't get into a silly amount of debt trying to "live the dream"...

(Edit to add: Seems I've set a few alarm bells ringing. I do not wish to be unnecessarily alarmist but IMHO prospective newbies need to be aware that even the seemingly "gold standard" airlines will be unable to maintain their current T&Cs given current commercial pressures and legislative changes).

[Alycidon]

Working for a LCC is a bit of a drudge and it would be fair to say that none of my colleagues think that they are "living the dream". For most it is a means to an end, it pays off the loan and keeps food on the table. The mind bending monotony of 4 sector days helps to numb us out of any inkling that we are enjoying what we do for a living.

Bearing in mind that it is a pretty average way of making a living, I am somewhat mystified as to why people would want to pay a large amount of money in order to do it.

Most of the new...ish guys at my base view it as a better alternative to an office job, but as a lifestyle, erm.... it's shift work, boring, dirty and tiring.

[FANS]

I can always understand why people would want to do it, and there are lots of worse jobs out there.

It's when people get confused with the lifestyle of a 1980s BA LH Captain, and think that's what they're signing up for. A very different world, and one that will continue downwards as the aircraft become increasingly modernised.

[16024]

The flip side of the objectively good advice about asking around and doing good research is this: if you are having to think that hard about it then, no don't do it. Go into I.T. or accountancy, or something.
On the other hand if you really, really want to fly aircraft for a living, then nothing else will make you happy.
I've been doing nothing else for over 20 years in a mix of G.A. and SH. Some jobs better than others, but overall the best move I ever made (career-wise, anyway...).
So the question kind of answers itself.

[FANS]

A very good point by 16024, but please don' t then complain about £$

[GlueBall]

Flying big jets long haul can be superlative, especially if you're homeless, single, no kids, no baggage, and no ambitions of a family life. :ooh:

[wiggy]

I think that depends on the rostering...if you've got some element of control (so you can at least attempt to avoid working every weekend/holiday/), have some decent trip constructions/destinations - not just a perpetual string of three day trips back and forth across the pond, and your contract means you don't have to aim to fly the CAA/EASA maximum every month then you can have some quality time at home not feeling like a zombie.....OTOH if you're not that lucky it can be very unpleasant..and yes, antisocial.

[FANS]

Wiggy speaks from the top of the tree. As he admits, for new joiners it's going to be a whole lot different, especially when loco and legacy T&Cs effectively merge (or meet at the loco end).

[Dovregubben]

Answer : YES

[root]

To put things into perspective for your people who are looking into this job.

At my current European Loco airlines (not the one that shall not be named) I know of 2 young F/O's (25 ish) who have cashed out and are heading back to university. These are people just like you, who started flying out of passion. 6 to 7 years later they're all looking for a way out.

Unless you manage to land a job at one of the legacies you're looking in at the wrong industry for a career. Even If you manage to land a 737 job at your homebase, there's no future in it. Or are you going to do 35-40 years of loco short hauling?

[R T Jones]

3 years into low cost flying and I'm convinced that to have a 40 year+ career I will need to go part time at some point. Who knows what the state pension or retirement age will be by the time I get there!

[oompa loompa]

I would agree with many of the comments on this forum. I strongly agree with 'Cliff Secord's' posts, and 'Greenlights' makes some very good points.

I was a keen not-so-young thing only a few years ago; all that mattered was getting that first airline job...and then everything would be OK.

I trained via the modular route, kept my training costs to around £65k and paid cash so I'm debt free. I finished training in 2007 and after 9 months of searching I joined an airline which rated me on a Jet and paid me well (for the first couple of years). I'm simply telling you this because I think I've been about as fortunate as it is possible to be in this game. I am also now paid about 25% less than I was in 2008, but...I still have a job.

I have been trying to get out of this business for 3 years now and with a bit of luck I will make the jump later in the year. Flying can be fun - though it can also be boring - and I know I'll miss it. But I'm going to make the jump because it has cost me my life for the last 6 years and it's not worth that high a price.

You won't fit into with the rest of the world because your work pattern won't be a 7 day cycle. When you get home from a trip all you will do is sleep, wash and then you're back out the door again. You will have to request leave 6-12 months in advance, and it is likely you won't get it. As a result, you won't have many close friendships or relationships.

You will live out of a suitcase; you will become an expert in the art of frugal hotel living. Your diet will be poor, especially if you eat airline food. Your health will suffer, and you'll probably put on weight because you will frequently be too tired to exercise, but you won't want to sleep during the day because you have to get up early the next morning. This will also mean that you watch a lot of useless TV rather than getting on with the stuff that you need to do.

Every 6 months you will run the gauntlet of the sim check, and every 12 the line check. This can be quite stressful when the airline is using them as a means to reduce headcount.

I had a career previous to this one and so for me at least, I'm going to enjoy my life eating well, sleeping enough, spending time with my wife and friends, and working in an industry which isn't so badly managed.

Ironically enough, this decision will actually cost my airline because they will have to train a newbie who won't know how to operate the aircraft as well as I can, but they'll have to pay him the same because they haven't given me a pay rise.

[karanou]

Anyone who goes into this industry without gaining a degree life skills and another career as a back up first and who doesnt manage to minimise flight training costs to the levels oompa loompa did really are setting themselves up for a very tough time.

Dont allow yourself to get sucked into the big fto marketing dream and pay top dollar and go directly to the RH seat of a jet at ryr or ezy. I can assure you that you will be a very long way from having made it at that point. No matter what the schools tell you.

I went part time recently. Still use my degree. Money is better and shifts are much better in my other job than the locos (I too was lucky to avoid) -unfortunately friends followed the ctc/ezy and the oaa/ryr path and after an initial period of delight just 2-4 years down the line are actively trying to get out. At 2 years you definitely wont have got anywhere near paying your debt off, also unlikely at 4 years. Dont worry about the fto or the loco this situation suits them perfectly. As they appear to have a never ending supply of cadets with access to obscene sums of money.

The job isnt what it was certain quarters mainly the locos are trying to lower both pilots ts & cs and the profession standing - even down to pilots wearing anoraks and plastic coats (do a search on here). This is forcing virtually all operators to follow suit in the race to the bottom.

There is some excellent advice on here, mine is simply an opinion.
Best of luck

[aussiefarmer]

Interesting thread.

I just don't see sustainable in the long term. To fly this amount of hours under these conditions. And, having been in a low cost (1000hrs a year) and in EK (not sure you consider it a legacy or another low cost) I can assure you that EK is far more tiring than my previous job.

I think I could cope with 1000 hrs a year of day flying. Not with 900 missing 1/3 of the night's sleep per month.

I'm under 30 and considering a career change too. And is not about money anymore, is that the way this industry is going made me hate what I used to love most: flying.

[macdo]

I think there are multiple signs across the Western world that the party is coming to an end for employers. The gluttonous uptake of pilots that occurred during the LoCo mega growth years is turning into the belly ache of youngish disillusioned and much abused workforce who realise that they have been conned. The upside is that employers will be forced to improve t&c's in line with the law of supply and demand.

oompa lumpa good post, at least you had an available exit.

RT Jones, your state pension age will almost certainly be 70, assuming you are 25-30 now, according to government websites.

BALPA members should have received a Pension Newsletter yesterday (email) highlighting the appalling DC pension plans the majority of UK airlines are now offering, which, on minimum contributions, will pay out about 10% of your final salary as a pension after 30 years service.

So career scenario
Training Costs, rubbish salary, divorce due to worklife, penury in retirement, death. Naaaa, I'm only kidding you, it won't be that bad!

[SimonK]

Interesting thread, sure there's good jobs out there somewhere but I didn't realise it's quite this bad in fixed-wing. Out of interest what rosters are you guys working, do you work equal time?

One thing I noticed from my buddies who joined the airlines is the fairly rapid withering up of the joyful Facebook updates about how good the job is, they sound fairly knackered and depressed to me after the honeymoon period has worn off.

[oompa loompa]

I'm on a 5:2:6:3, going onto a 6:2:6:3 for the summer. Fatigue might be an issue....

[SimonK]

:eek:

Out of interest, what about leave on top and how many standbys do you get? I work 14/14 offshore which works for my family, I'm not sure if I could cope with family life on a permanent 6/2/6/3. Even friends who've gone long haul have told me it is a nice lifestyle, but permanently tiring.

[fwjc]

My work is 6:1 continuously, occasionally 13:1. If I want more days off I have to book (unpaid) leave. That's life, these days.

[Woody12]

That you guys are accepting these kind of rosters, i dont get it. Think outside the box. There are still other jobs out there. 13 days on 1 off!!!:eek: I hope you dont have a family at home.

[fwjc]

Woody - nope, no family, fortunately.
This isn't an airline imposed roster. This is necessity of being self employed and working for multiple customers. To keep them happy you have to work non-stop.

My point is that the airline rosters are bad, but life elsewhere isn't exactly a bed of roses either.

[Tacitus]

This is just my personal opinion, so feel free to correct me where im wrong.
Traditionally the entry level jobs in aviation where badly paid so even though training was expensive after a reasonable amount of time prospective pilots would jump to a legacy carrier where they could enjoy an upper middle class standard of living. In the old days a young student or a mature career changer could afford training without significant debt and later could hope for a reasonable pay and a cream of the crop job. The key over here was patience and determination. Now days cheap credit and the "I want it now" mentality lead many people to integrated schools with massive amount of debt hoping to achieve the job and the salary of the past. While low cost operators were hiring it was OK but now supply is well over demand. For example i read somewhere that in the US there are about 30.000 professional pilots flying for the legacies. So say that every year there is a need for 3.000 pilots,considering the amount of graduates from aviation colleges like ERAU and the military guys retiring, someone has to be extremely lucky to fly with the big players. I believe that the same, or worst, applies to Europe taking into account the lack of general aviation.Furthermore in Europe established carriers take their own cadets. In order for the T and Cs to be better there has to be a massive expansion or a much more limited supply. With the amount of people graduating from schools all over i doubt that there will be a limited supply in Europe anytime soon.
My personal view on this one is simple,
if the required hours for the CPL were for example 400 then it would be much more difficult for someone to earn his wings in an integrated school in a year or so.For someone in order to be a pilot would be a long time goal and determination would be needed. Furthermore earning all that hours would mean that more mature candidates would enter the profession. Generally speaking a mature person has more responsibilities in life and demands better T and Cs. Thats my thoughts on the matter.

[armchairpilot101]

When I was growing up I would have done pretty much anything to be a pilot. In the end I was forced to give up on the idea as my eyesight was not good enough to pass the medicals. Best thing that ever happened to me.

I know a number of pilots of varying ages / seniority and the general consensus is that the industry sucks these days. And I don't see it getting better anytime soon. Airlines constantly cutting to the bone to make profit and expecting pilots to pay for their own training, putting them on contracts that offer little job security etc etc. And to top it all off, I am not convinced the flying is very appealing with terrible work/life balance and 98% of the task basically systems monitoring. There are a few lucky ones out there that love the job and have very good employers/ employment terms but they are few and far between IMHO.

As for me I am lucky enough to work in an entirely different industry earning way more than the highest paid Captains out there and I get to travel around the world a lot (for both business and vacations). So my advice....if it is getting to see the world that motivates you then there are a stack of careers to consider out there that offer better pay, better security, better work/life balance and more rewarding career...and if you still have a passion for flying, get a PPL and do some real flying at the weekend.

Good luck!!!!

[felixthecat]

I think personally that we sometimes forget the day in day out drudge of a 9-5 job in the real world. We also forget the state of the economy and the difficulty there is in the real world to get a decent job against the cut throat workforce and corporate greed that also goes on there. Dont kid yourself that the real world is a whole lot better, its not.

I have been very fortunate in my career so my view of aviation is somewhat rosy, but equally I realise its not the same as it was. I decided to take the leap of faith and naively left a 9-5 to learn to fly in my early 30s. I got a job in the LOCOs in the early days of their growth, pre 9-11. It was before they realised their present business model and recruitment strategy. I moved on a few years later and once again was lucky to get into what I believe is a good career job and now in my late 40s I fly LHS long haul with a good salary, pension and lifestyle. Yes I fly long hours and nights but that I knew before I launched into this career. I have no illusions about the real world though and how bloody hard my non pilot friends work and for a fraction of what I do. Yes they have weekends and Christmas off. The time I have off is generally quality time, not just crashed at home after a 2 hour daily commute bundled on a train or trudging up the motorway.

Would I do it now? Probably not because it has become a different beast. Am I happy with my choice now I look back? Yes I am. Horses for courses……

[CompleteElite]

Every industry is doing it tough. People are getting laid off left, right and centre. That's how it is. We laid off 100 employees last year (probably 70% of our workers). I'm in the construction industry currently transitioning to a career in aviation.
I am 28, and completing my CPL.
My current job is good, I earn great money, but it doesn't fulfil me. I don't have any pride in my job. Its just a job. A boring, :mad: job that pays well.
I've always wanted to fly. Every time I put on that uniform and my wings, I feel so proud; full of pride.
I'd gladly take a pay cut to be in the air every day.

Surely every professional pilot out there, flying big/small jets was aware of the lifestyle!? Its no secret. You don't fly aircraft for the lifestyle or money, you fly aircraft because you want to fly aircraft!

It seems tough, but if you truly, whole heartedly know and feel that you belong in the air, then that's where you need to be.
Nearly every pilot started out in the same frame of mind, with the same determination and heart. To fly because its what we're passionate about. Like so many pilots have said who are contemplating a change "hmmm, but I'll miss it if I leave". How many people can say that in the workforce? I won't miss construction, that's for damn sure, or the MONEY.

But if you have no pride in your job, and its not fulfilling, then leave. Like my first boss said when I was an apprentice at 17, "If you have pride in your job, and pride in your work, you'll always have a job, and you'll always have work".

Maybe I'm just being naive, but I work hard, and have kept my job when times got tough because somehow the people above me knew I was an asset to the company because I did my job well, and took I pride in my work.

By the way, I know life can be demanding, and hard.. long hours, poor sleep patterns, diet.. but its not ALL bad, ALL the time. Surely there's moments of appreciation for what you have.

[FANS]

The key is that you know what you're getting involved in, and it isn't the same job as pre-2000.

Talk of T&Cs increasing is even possible from where we are today, but it's not going to be the upper middle class job it once was.

If we're honest, it does not require the ability of yesteryear and hence you don't need to pay top dollar for an exceptional individual as you don't need them for today's shift.

In fact, a top individual is going to be complete pain in the @rse to manage with lower T&Cs and a boring job.

[Joe le Taxi]

My current job is good, I earn great money, but it doesn't fulfil me. I don't have any pride in my job. Its just a job.A boring, job that pays well.
I've always wanted to fly. Every time I put on that uniform and my wings, I feel so proud; full of pride.
I'd gladly take a pay cut to be in the air every day.

Sooo ... You're giving it up for a ... boring job .. that pays terribly (or more accurately, gives a terrible return on time and money invested).

You wonder if you're being naïve - Yes, you're being naïve! I am an aviation nut, but that pride and enjoyment lasts five minutes, in what is a very repetitive job, working with often quite egotistical or odd people; Frankly I have found construction workers much more rounded and grounded personalities. You say you appreciated being appreciated by the people above you - Oh boy, you are switching into the wrong career! - Nobody will care how well you get the plane from A to B, provided you just do it, and at the absolute minimum renumeration; Even if you are the next Bob Hoover, you will still get promoted at exactly the same speed as a clueless contemporary who scrapes through every check and keeps their heads down.

[R T Jones]

After a 12hr 4 sector day when I get off the plane the first feeling I feel is not fulfilment!
If you want to fly an aircraft for the pure delight of flying then do it as a hobby, when you do a hobby as a career, it soon becomes just another job. Lifestyle, is not what it was 20 years ago and I don't think ever will be!
For me, the salary commanded is not for the complexity or day to day flying, but for when **** hits the fan, or even more likely, stopping them getting that far. The responsibility of a captain in my eyes is pretty big, the buck stops with them.
As has been said, most days by the end of it I barely remember where I've been or what has happened. I'd like to keep it that way. At the end of the day, its a job, that provides me an income and time off so I can do what I want. For me, it does that.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the views, the sunsets and 99% of the people I work with are lovely and excellent fun. I feel I had quite a lucky break, straight into easy jet after flight school. An unsecured loan which I am now able to pay back and have a reasonable lifestyle. Ok yes I am 4 years in so it didn't all appear straight away.

[Cliff Secord]

I have not come across any colleagues who do not take pride in the job they personally do.

If you have "pride in your job and pride in your work" that will almost certainly not correlate to always having work in aviation, here anyway. It could be stated that you are not really viewed as an asset by an airline if the way you are treated is testimony. You're an unfortunate requirement; the same as insurance policies, GNSS approvals and noise certificates. Thats the way it is - business. We are all used to that and nobody moans about the lack of recognition.

Weary of the whole damn thing my sights are lowered, a decent full time contract that allows my family to stay in their home country, the odd job opening that recognises some good old fashioned experience rather than peddling a falsely titled full cost but flexible pay type rating 'cadet scheme' aimed at young starlets and some half decent time off will do. I can't be fussed inciting much hope for anything else.

Playing the Devil's advocate; If you want to always have work, It's better if you don't overly value what you have to offer and as you say gladly take pay cuts to fly. They know it and use it, we have done it for them collectively. The crystal meth like habit the UK seems to have developed with cheap trainee schemes/PPY/ flex contracts sheds light to the claim. As a brand new Pilot walking into that first interview room at CTC/ John Doe airline, the stench of love blindness with the idea and Kamikaze like devotedness permeates for all to smell like a cheap cologne.

Best of luck with your training by the way. It's good you have industry experience to fall back on and it's a sensible way round to do it.

[DMN]

I understand the difficulties involved in getting a good paying job vs lifestyle. But what I don't understand is all these complainers of how the job sucks, money is bad, odd cockpit personalities, all of you have many many posts on pprune. Just give it up already, log off pprune, and get on with your life.

btw, I landed a great job last year, very happy. But it took me 13 years of flying tprops, jets for 2nd rate airlines. And you know what, even flying for 2nd rate airlines I made more money and had more time off than almost all of my friends/relatives doing something else.

Have fun guys, otherwise I don't wish to see you on my flight deck.

[tarjet fixated]

15k + hours, done the turboprops, done the jets, done the passengers, done the cargo, done the corporate , done the instructing&checking , done the 3 aircraft airline , done the 200+ aircraft airline, done the permanent jobs, done the contracting jobs, been based many places......is it really that bad?
Well it definitely got worse and worse over time and I would not recommend this career to a youngster.
Having said that there are worst jobs out there but this one is quickly climbing the rankings of the least attractive careers.

[RAT 5]

There are 2 aspects here. There are those who say they enjoy their job, those who loath it and those who say it's just a job and there are much worse out there. All true and it is affected by so many factors as as been said.
Then there are those who say they do it because they love/loved flying.
These are the 2 aspects: it started out as a flying dream and became just a job as it has very little to do with the rock & roll of real flying dreamt up as a kid. And there are those who entered it as an OK type of job with a bit of glamour. Whichever it is it will turn out to be a 'lifestyle' and that will be impossible to predict unless you know from the start who you are going to work for before you pay out loads of dosh for a training course.
You can go to assessment agencies to be tested to see if you are suitable to be a pilot and coordinated enough to handle an a/c etc. etc. You can jump through all the psychological hoops and be deemed acceptable. But will you like it as a life style. All these tests will not give you an answer, nor will they alert you to the trap you are about to fall into.
Caveat emptor.

[CompleteElite]

Thanks for shedding some light, I am definitely starry eyed, hence being Mr. Naive. I look at airline pilots with envy and admiration, its a little hard to accept that so many of you HATE your jobs and want out...

Sooo ... You're giving it up for a ... boring job .. that pays terribly (or more accurately, gives a terrible return on time and money invested).

Everyone seems to fall back onto this 'negative'.
The FO's here (Australia) in the QF Dash 8's are on a base wage of about $80K. That doesn't seem terrible for a foot through the door, with a lot of room for improvement.

And as for the "return on time and money invested", I really fail to see how it varies from a dentist, a lawyer or a doctor?
They invest more time (I think its about 5 years) in further education, and I'm sure they would have a similar, if not greater debt than $80K-$100K. Then, they have to land their first job, and they too have to claw their way up the ladder also.

But, I suppose it could be worse. Like operating and cutting people open, or pulling out stinky, rotten teeth. The major up side is helping people and saving lives. But isn't that was pilots are obligated to do also?
I'd much rather sit on the flight deck, staring out the window feeling 'bored' any day.

Being a pilot is a privilege in my eyes and always will be, not only from an intelligence perspective, but from that of health as well.

[maybepilot]

It is a job that took major hits in recent years and it is far from what it used to be.
Signs of recovery? None.
I better get ready to leave the studio flat of the city where I am based but where I don't live to prepare for a long night flight up into the northern weather hoping my payload isn't too big in order to have room for some spare fuel in case of snow and not being forced to re-file in flight and land elsewhere because that would spoil my commuting plans the day after and I was hoping to be able to spend 2 full days with my kids before leaving again for a duty of 6.

Add 'pilot' to list of jobs that aren't so great now - USATODAY.com (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-02-18-pilots18_CV_N.htm?csp=Travel)

[macdo]

This thread kind of proves the following
30 Years + Final Salary Pension = Smug, lucky Pilot
20 years + in Flag Carrier on Legacy T&Cs = Happy
15 Years + Major Western Carrier Big Jets = Happy/Satisfied
10 Years + LOCO = Looking to move on due Lifestyle
5 Years + LOCO = How can I move on?
3 Years + LOCO = Have I made a mistake?
1 Year + Any Jet = I've made it!
0 Years = I'll take any job.

ME = How can I get home.
FE = Will they send me home?
Bizjet = Whats a roster?
TP = Will I get out before I lose my hearing?

Very much tongue in cheek!

[av8r76]

That has to be the most astute and succinct post on this site. You might say it's tongue in cheek but it sums up pretty much every member in these forums, self included.

Bravo.:D:D

[Superpilot]

It's missing one important factor though. If at any point between 10-30 years your employer goes bust, then you can expect to join the bottom of the queue all over again quite possibly starting on a salary you last saw when you had hair on your head. Can't think of any other industry where that happens but there you go.

Beautifully summarised here:

The Ugly - The Truth About the Profession (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/the-ugly.html)


Handcuffed/Starting Over
One of the ugliest things about the airline pilot profession is the fact that we usually are handcuffed to our ultimate employer for our entire career, and if our employer goes out of business, we're forced to start over as if you're a brand new pilot fresh out of flight school. Let me explain...let's look at an accountant and a pilot, both working at Acme Airlines.

Let's say you wish to ultimately become employed by Acme Airlines, which is a large, currently profitable major airline with good career prospects. You spend 15 years of your life earning your Bachelor's Degree and accumulating thousands of hours of flight experience, and you finally make it to Acme Airlines. Fast forward 10 years down the road after you were hired by Acme, and Acme is not doing so well. It's chronically losing money, it's now poorly managed, and it is in danger of bankruptcy. Employees are facing yet another round of pay cuts in order to help support this struggling company.

Now if you were in any other profession (assuming normal economic conditions), when you became unhappy with Acme, you could just leave and find a healthy company to work for. And that's exactly what the accountant does at Acme Airlines. He sees that his employer is struggling and that another round of pay cuts are on the horizon. So what does he do? He looks around for another accountant job and leaves. When he makes this move, it's very likely that this accountant will be able to find a job at another company earning a salary resembling his old salary at Acme, or perhaps maybe even find a job that pays more because he was a great employee, worked hard as an accountant, and his accumulated experience at Acme is appreciated and rewarded by his new employer.

But what about the Acme Airlines pilot? Certainly he could do the same as the accountant and jump ship to a healthier company with better prospects? Nope. As airline pilots, when you leave your current employer for a new one, your new airline employer will start you at the bottom of the seniority list. You're handcuffed to your current employer because leaving would cause you to have to start over at entry level wages and seniority at another airline, leaving you with really no choice but to stay and ride it out.

Let's say you stay and "ride it out" but unfortunately Acme Airline liquidates and ceases to exist. If you were a 747 Captain at Acme Airlines when Acme liquidated, you'd now be competing for the same entry level positions at other major airlines as you were 10 years ago when you were just starting out in the profession, working your way up. And what may be worse, if the economy is poor, and only regional airlines are hiring, you'll be competing against people fresh out of flight school for that $20,000 year regional airline job! That's quite a long financial fall for a 747 Captain. Unfortunately, this story has been played out time and time again. In fact, this story is playing out right now at some airlines. It can be financially devastating, and I personally know pilots who have lost their homes, their marriages, and sometimes their life because of this.

[wiggy]

Not a bad precis at all, but in addition Superpilot's comment I think it's worth emphasising to some of the newbies/wanabees that IMHO the scale is a snapshot of where we are now in March 2014.....

What the zero bods need to ask themselves is what are the chances that in 2044 the 30 years pilot will be a "..... Final Salary Pension = Smug, lucky Pilot" ?...Actually scratch the Final Salary bit, we already know the answer to that one :(

[ImageGear]

For interest perhaps one should consider the inject point for a time served, 20 year, ex-fast and pointy, frozen atpl, trying to enter the food chain? :E

[macdo]

EXMIL + fATPL = wishing it was 2004
FUTURERETIREDPILOT + DC Pension = there's a job in B&Q (Home Depot)
PPL + PA28 = Glad I became something in the City.

:ooh:

[clunk1001]

EXMIL + fATPL = wishing it was 2004

Ha ha ! Nice one !

:ok:

[hec7or]

perhaps in the future

+5 Years Still paying off loan
+10 Years Paying for the fuel
+15 Years Paying for the fuel and renting the aircraft

(hopefully) tongue in cheek! :)

[wannabe1000]

I almost never post on pprune but threads like this are important to people thinking about entering the industry so I'm going to throw my 2p worth in.

I fly a heavy jet around Europe working very hard in the summer and not so hard in the winter. I love my job and couldn't imagine doing anything else. However having said that if I had my time over again knowing what I know now I wouldn't enter the industry. This is a feeling echoed by many of my colleagues.

The reasons I would not enter the industry again are as follows:

As a new trainee entering the industry will realistically have to pay around £100000. This is a life changing amount of money. If you are not lucky enough to have that kind of money lying around either you or your family will have to get a loan, re- mortgage your home or work and save for a very long time to save £100000 of disposable income.

If you need a loan there is only 1 company in the UK that will fund flight training. They have very strict criteria that have to be met in order to be offered the loan. The criteria are more difficult to satisfy than getting a mortgage for buying a house and is for a maximum term of 10 years which is substantially shorter than most mortgages. The repayments for this loan in the most optimistic scenario with interest remaining at their historically low level is about £900 a month. This has to be paid every month or the home which you have secured it on will be repossessed. This is a real scenario and has happened to people. £900 is a lot of money to find each month on most entry level salaries in the aviation industry. If you are not lucky enough to get a job straight out of training add on to this the cost of keeping your licence current in order to remain attractive to potential employers.

The percentage chance for a newly qualified frozen ATPL getting a job that pays you to fly for an airline on a proper employment contract is very very slim. Particularly in the UK where highly experienced many thousand hour jet captains are struggling to find gainful employment. It's a huge gamble to take with such a large amount of money that if it doesn't pay off will hamper the rest of your life. If your credit rating shows such a large debt you will struggle to achieve any more debt so things like mortgages, credit cards and even mobile phone contracts become more challenging and all you have to show for your troubles is a cheap blue plastic wallet.

For those who will immediately say that's only the UK and European markets this is true but in order to apply to other parts of the world eg Middle East / Far East a very quick check of the current requirements for these jobs shows a requirement for at least 3000 of hours experience on jet aircraft and most above the weight categories above those the pay to fly schemes will satisfy. If you can afford to buy into these schemes and remain on them long enough to build the hours required to move on then you are lucky but you will be among the very lucky few.

To everyone who will say follow your dream and paint the romantic picture of bursting through the clouds a sun rise and tell you there's nothing like it, it's true. However the excitement and sparkle of this soon goes when your on day six of your run of early starts with min rest in between and all you want to do is finish so you can get your 2 days off to recover get your life organised maybe see you friends and family before you start again with the only difference being that your now on lates and will get home at 4 am instead of getting up at 4am.

Ultimately the excitement of flying a big aircraft doesn't really exist for very long it becomes just a job very quickly, a fun job where you mostly work with nice people, but really it's just a way to earn money to fund your lifestyle. It is very regimented and repetitive job you see crew room, flight deck, runway, sky, runway, 10min outside doing the walk round, say hello to cabin crew then flight deck, runway, sky, runway, crew room and repeat. If you make a mistake there are questions to be answered ranging from file an ASR and forget about it to sorry you've lost your job depending on severity of the mistake.

There is also the issue of it can be a very unstable industry with redundancy a real possibility. I thankfully have never experienced this so cannot talk about it intelligently but I have worked with many people who have lived through this scenario and it is a tough one to survive financially.

This has been a very long post so thank you for reading it is only my view so I'm sure there will be many who do not agree.

My final comment would be that to succeed in this industry has very little to do with ability, willingness to work, determination or cash it is mostly luck in qualifying at the right time and being in the right place when a job becomes up.

[Three Lions]

Wanabee1000

Your post was worth reading to the end.

I would hazard a guess that there has never been as much recruitment on Jet aircraft in the UK as there has been in recent times. Id also guess the recruitment has never been extensively ringfenced to one or two FTOs as it has before.

It is ok for the few who have manouvered themselves into position to gain from this scenario such as the shareholders of the ftos etc (you do on occasion hear all sorts of rumours) but it isnt difficult to see what it is doing to the overall industry

I understand wanabees are advised not to read too much on this website as it is allegedly full of negative stuff from envious people. That may be true to a certain extent however spin like this from the ftos does dilute the excellent advice and guidance from established, independent and well placed sources of information from within the industry.

My own attitude about the industry I work in isnt fuelled by individual concern it is fuelled by the fact this is having on the whole industry

I make no apologies for the fact that I personally, do not have much sympathy for anyone who gets sucked into one of the big schools whether they don't get into the industry at all, or end up marking time for a year or two, or even those who end up "winning" and getting there backside into the RHS of an airliner albiet in such a ridiculous financial situation with huge debts and not much in the way of paying them off. They surely are not the sole cause for the direction the industry is going however they certainly do play a part this cannot be disregarded

My advice is to read the informative posts on here, filter out the rubbish and hidden agenda, understand the industry, understand the lifestyle (especially at the LOCOs such as RYR and EZY) be very very cautious with the spin from the FTOs and any related sources of information.

[Sleeve Wing]

In a nutshell, unless you work for a large national carrier, yes.

Following the two excellently considered posts from Wanabee1000 and Three Lions plus the constructive input from macdo, I would like to offer the opinion of a time-served airline captain.
I wanted to be a pilot from the days when I used to carve solid balsa scale model aircraft as a 9 year old.
Later I hung around an aero club, doing all the stuff that nobody else wanted to do and was rewarded with some super flights with super people.
I then flew fighters in the military, instructed at one of the major (now) FTOs and then landed an airline job at a starting salary a good bit lower than the FTO's.
Btw, the FTO paid for my IR and Commercial Instructor Rating! The airline paid for my Type rating and base training !

Magic ! ……for a while !!

As many have said, the fun waned at a rapid rate, far outweighing the fulfilment I always got from doing the job properly, sometimes with aeroplanes carrying a large number of DDs. The hours were long and the sectors were shorthaul. A large number of taxi journeys, up to 3 hours, were regular occurrences …..and didn't count as a sector !
Family life began to suffer as, even in those days, I was getting fatigued because there was never any time to recover.

To cut a long story short, I endured this for a further 25 years. At the end, I was relieved to retire and go back to flying and instructing on little 'uns again.
The improvement was immediate. I was much better company; I was enjoying teaching motivated, rested students again; I was flying the way it should be.
There was little pressure, no ingratitude; no threat of being failed on your next Base Check because you had dared to question a completely unreasonable request to "help the Company out." I became valued again.
To do it again with the lifetime financial load, the higher hours caps and the continued thanklessness of the modern task ? No,…..no matter what the challenge.
Get a wellpaid job in the City and buy your own aeroplane ! Don't buy your future in the most thankless profession going. := Good Luck.

[Bealzebub]

I always wonder if these "well paid jobs in the city" are devoid of stress and burnout, and are bastions of morality, and exist in sufficient numbers to satisfy the default position of dissuaded, disillusioned or failed commercial pilots? Come Five o' clock on a Friday evening its Bowler and umbrella off the hat stand, hop on the commuter train home and look forward to a weekend flattening daisies in your very own light aircraft.

Flying has provided me with a very good career and there is no doubt a lot of luck was involved, but it is still a reality that there are good jobs out there. I am very lucky in that I see a stream of people entering a profession who are also getting a good start to their careers. The mechanics of entry have evolved over the last two decades as indeed the industry itself has evolved.

For those that really want a career as a professional pilot in 2014, I doubt that telling them why they can't, won't, shouldn't, or mustn't, is going to make very much difference. You can spell out the realities, you can recount tales of horror, you can highlight each and every pitfall. Some will heed the advice and use it as a part of their journey, others will simply believe whatever they choose or simply have to believe in order to justify a limited range of options. You pay your money and you take your choice!

As posters above have said, it is a job and once the illusion of glamour has started to tarnish it is still a job. It is what pays the mortgage/rent and pays the car bills and the food, loans, credit cards, clothing, heat, light and entertainment. Monthly bills get very mundane, and remuneration is what (if you are lucky) keeps them mundane rather than a personal crisis.

The roads into the better remunerated jobs are either very expensive or very long. Often they can be very expensive and very long. There are no guarantees. The risks are enormous. Crossing the raging torrent to these better remunerated jobs is fraught with difficulty. There are plenty of "I have no agenda" folks, clinging on to these slippery rocks telling others not to pay the toll to cross the bridge.

Would I promote a career in commercial aviation to my own children? No, not beyond many other choices that may be available to them. However if they were determined to take this route, then I would provide a very detailed and specific roadmap to help them achieve their goal. That roadmap would be full of many of the same warnings that are highlighted in this and many other threads.

[fivecandles]

Have to agree with Bealzebub.

I get to meet a lot of pilots in their 20s joining my airline. The vast majority are mature and well motivated and came into the business eyes wide open, well aware of the negatives. They all chose a route which was expensive but which they felt gave them the best chance of getting a job. No guarantees were given and some of their contemporaries who followed the same route have not been so fortunate.

I invariably ask them about their school/university mates and it does not make for happy listening. The top guys with good degrees may well end up in the city but they seem to be a tiny minority and the pressure can be immense with little job satisfaction. Many of the others seem to end up in some other form of employment which is neither fulfilling nor well paid. The only really happy ones seem to be the ones who have followed a more vocational route. Meanwhile the guy sitting next to me says he has no regrets and talks optimistically about the future.

I do worry for my children and will not encourage or discourage them to go into flying but if I was starting again and determined to fly I would go MPL or, at a push, Integrated with a known UK School. Without that relative security the risks are too great. It's a great shame because the route I took was a lot more fun and open to the majority of people who do not have access to huge amounts of money/credit.

[truckflyer]

"It is what pays the mortgage/rent and pays the car bills and the food, loans, credit cards, clothing, heat, light and entertainment. "

That has to be the joke of the century!

The profession is as it is because to many like to moan and complain, if they have a chance to change something they have very little loyalty and courage.

There are more good jobs than just working in the "city", so let's not just keep on how that is the alternative to a flying career.

Would I spend the next 25 years doing 900 (or 1000 a year) short haul? No way, it will literally kill you. I think the majority have painted a relatively dark and gloom picture of the profession, which unfortunately is very correct.

"It is very regimented and repetitive job you see crew room, flight deck, runway, sky, runway, 10 min outside doing the walk round, say hello to cabin crew then flight deck, runway, sky, runway, crew room and repeat." also add no chance for a proper rest or hot meal in a 12 - 14 hour day.

It's funny how on one of the Wannabe threads I got slaughtered by a certain poster here, who seems to maybe have some interests in continued training, I am guessing TRE's probably don't need to worry about if they can afford some peanuts at the end of their day!:D

[truckflyer]

"AIMINGHIGH123" - reality check here my friend.

First you spend 6 figures on training, and chances of getting a job, is close to 2 - 3 %.

Then when you finally do get an offer, you go trough checks, tests etc., and you can be cut anytime during this process if you are not up to companies standards.

Than you go working week, all depends on company, but you are very unlikely to get first job anywhere close to home country. So you can move away and live on 3 figure monthly amount for the next couple of years. Working average 8 - 14 hours a day, with no break, it can work out normally 6 - 7 days, then you have 3 - 4 days off. 2 of those days you spend trying to get back home and back to work, to travel to your family/wife/girlfriend/children.

After a while, your wife and children get used to never seeing you, the quality time in your life is when you sitting in a flimsy hotel or some crash pad far away.

So "AIMINGHIGH123" - tell me how long your partner will be staying with you after you reached your dream, how many years you can go on like this, no time for friends, never time for important events in your children's lives, of course you can bring your wife with you, and try to survive on your monthly 3 figure salary! If you have children, even better, the more the merrier!

So lets get the facts straight, you living on less than minimum pay, with a crappy life style, constantly tired, because in reality you are working 7 - 8 days in a 10 day period.

"lots of careers are working people harder for more of your blood"

Tell me after you had the job for 12 months, if you agree on that statement. I know we all feel this passion when we looking for that first job, but end of the day it is: "a repetitive job you see crew room, flight deck, runway, sky, runway, 10 min outside doing the walk round, say hello to cabin crew then flight deck, runway, sky, runway, crew room and repeat."

When I go home, and manage to get 5 - 6 days off, in a row, it's like freedom, I can do what I want, but oh Sh..., I got no money to do anything!:ugh:

It's time for people like you and others to stop feeding the industry, because it is a massive own goal!

[wannabe1000]

Aiming high 123

I'm thrilled that you only spent 40k on your training. Very well done you!

However you will need to accept that you are entering an industry where you are at the bottom of the pile.
The people in this industry who take time to try and give you the benefit of their experience and point out the pitfalls are the good people, and are the ones you want to befriend and listen to.

Your attitude is incredibly immature as you seem to think that it is some kind of competition between you and people who have already succeeded in this industry. You seem to be blissfully unaware that they have already won.

The attitude you have displayed is the worst kind in new fo's and will earn you no brownie points in the flight deck.

Another little peril of wisdom for you to ignore. No matter how anonymous these forums seem to be aviation is a terrifyingly small world and eventually everyone is identifiable. If I were you I would tone down the attitude because you never know who you might end up sitting next to for hours on end.

[truckflyer]

The quality of life is the question - believe me, money is more important than you think.

From what I told you in previous post, name one good thing you see in it?

Of course unless you don't believe this is the reality.

I know of few guys, unless better things to come (note with few thousand hours on type), they will rather quit flying forever, than continue.

Imagine that is a massive statement, after spending 5-6 figure amounts on training, and even got a job, experience and hours, the quality of life is just not good enough.

There are good jobs out there, but if you imagine 2 - 3 % of the low hours getting a chance of a job, of all of those it is only 2 - 3 % who will get a job with a good company, where you at least might feel appreciated and respected.

For me appreciation and respect is not some fancy words, it's hard cash, anything else does not show me any appreciation. We living in the real world, nice words will not pay for my mortgage, rent or food.

[truckflyer]

Don't underestimate the power of money!

Read the post link Superpilot gave:
The Ugly - The Truth About the Profession (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/the-ugly.html)

Roof over your head! I know of guys where the only way the managing to do the job is because wife/partner has a good income - now imagine your wife/husband/partner would like to have children!

Still do I regret spending £70 - £80 K, probably not, as I have avoided debt.
But if I think about that I could have used that as deposit on a house, I would think again today, knowing what I know.
Add the loss of income during training and when you start working compared to other work/business, and my cost is probably close to 3 times that amount. I elect to not think about it, same time if I decide to cut my bonds with aviation, I will probably miss some parts of it, but I will know I will have done it for something better.
Problem is, when you don't have the job, aviation is your life, when you inside, and you spend 80% of your month in aviation, your view will change, if you are a normal human being of course.

(£40K shows you still got a long way to go my friend)

[Wodka]

IMO Perspective required!

I spent 10 years working in various jobs saving money to fund my licence. My first flying job was living in a caravan on the airfield... loved it!!! ... even in the bleak mid-winter when my toilet froze over and it snowed in my shower!

Why? because I got something gained from ten years of soul destroying jobs I hated, that sinking Monday 7am feeling and the relentless grind of Mon-Fri 9-5.

That thing is an appreciation that SO many jobs out there are total :mad: and to be able to work in something you have an outside interest in is priceless. I agree the industry is in a race to the bottom and its sad, it is resulting in good guys being turned away from aviation.

Sometimes I have days on the line when I want the day to just end but whenever I am feeling really crap I just take a moment to recall all those awful jobs I endured to get here and then I am able to take perspective and appreciate that warts and all this is by far the best job I have ever had - it's my career and my vocation. The flying I am doing now on the lower rungs is my apprenticeship and when I am finally in a 787 at FL380 I will look back on this all with fondness no doubt!

That is just my opinion from someone who has really had to fight to get into the RHS. I am as a result an older than average FO but I feel much richer for all my experiences along the way, it has largely made me who I am.

[pilotho]

I fly with guys who hate being at work, guys who does it because it pays the bills and guys who do it because it's what they have passion for.

Guys who doesn't like coming to work are the ones who have been in the game for the last 20 years and have experienced the "good days" of the industry.

Guys who do it because it pays the bill are the ones who have been in it for about 10 years.

Guys who are passionate are the ones who have been in for about 1 year.

I guess this just happens as you do the same thing for a long period of time and I'm in no doubt it will probably happen to me one day.

However, none of my colleagues are struggling to live day by day. They aren't always looking over their shoulder to see if the bailiffs are coming. There are much worse jobs out there and I don't regret picking this career.

[Bealzebub]

I could hardly be accused of being an optimistic cheerleader for the prospects of new entrants to this industry (see myriad posts of mine, passim). However, writing unsubstantiated tosh like the above detracts from the message. John, if you have a look through his posting history, it is a recurring theme.

[SEAMASTER]

Can I suggest you change the title of this thread to working in the industry in the "LCC world" none of this applies to me and I would suggest many other pilots who work for reasonable outfits, 6 days on 1 or 2 off and then same again, over and over again !! Are you making this up ??? Seriously if your not happy do something else !! It's boring reading the same old rant that turns into a personal argument boring, boring, boring !!! Get a new career !!!!

[truckflyer]

john_smith - Really you think my numbers are to negative?

Ok, rumours was that AL got around 4000 - 5000 applications, for approx. 70 jobs. Similar was for EZY, what about RYR, how many applications do they have?

Please you do the maths! :ugh:

[Greenlights]

Indeed maybe we moderators could change the title.
Some airlines may have better conditions (not for long though). But most of the case new pilots will start in a LCC, as I did. LCC's are the present and the futur.
As I said before, wannabe have to be really aware that they will start in LCC not necessary in Europe, so they should not expect to move in a Major. The queue is huge. Prepare a backup plan. That's my main advice. I said it already, but nowadays, it is good to remind it.
5 to 10 years ago, having a backup plan was a good advice, today it is MUST IMO.
Most of the pilots in LCC today will have two choices : staying 40 years there, or change career.
And actually there is really nothing wrong to try and change career. Nowadays, people have known many serious jobs in life. Life is a wheel. Just be smart. But pilot is not a real career with real transferable skills. Get a enginering degree, or something like that. Today beside my main business I study again online course in hard sciences (environnment sciences), it is a lot harder than the atpl theory (wich is a joke to compare with hard sciences) and type rating...I start to make my brain working again lol!
Be happy ! A job is a job, we work for a living we do not live for work. :)

[truckflyer]

LCC are stretching and bending the rules, and unless change is made, they will drag with them the good companies, as this will be the only way they can survive.

I do understand there are some serious and good companies out there, but they are becoming less and less of them.

The fact is that the world is that everybody wants to make more money, so companies will look for ways to become more profitable in every department.

If companies like Ryanair are bending the rules close to what is illegal, how can you expect that your TC's will remain in the top bracket in the future.

It's a fight for survival, and time will tell if the warning signs was all there to be seen, but nobody did anything, because now it does not concern you or your life! Fact is that only the minority will be able achieve these top level jobs,as in all walks of life.

[UB6IB9]

"Give a pilot a bag of gold coins and he will probably still complain about the weight"

Having flown for jet operators in both Europe and Canada I still think being an airline pilot is still hands down the best gig out there. Compared to my working stiff friends (9-5er's) I have the best gig out of all of them.

[truckflyer]

"Compared to my working stiff friends (9-5er's)"

Maybe your friends have crappy jobs, does not mean all other jobs out there are giving you stiff working hours.

Now I have never worked any 9-5 job, the the pilot job is more 4.00 to 17.00, or 11 to 24.00, add minimum rest in between, and ask yourself what life that is?

If your life only fulfilment is to fly the metal tube, I would say you must have a very sad life!

Forget the gold coins, they will give you peanuts instead!

[wiggy]

This is all starting to sound like Derek and Clive's "What's the Worse Job You've Ever Had Sketch"... There are certainly good, well paid rewarding jobs to be had outside of aviation, and there are sure as heck bad jobs inside. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong, own opinions are shaped by where we are in the scheme of things and may well be very different to those the poor soul living thousands of kilometres from his family, at a base not of his choosing and perhaps also 100K in debt (because despite the rose tinted spectacles those people do exist).

I don't see many/any of the FTO's mentioning the down side of working for the LCCs, they are too busy plastering pictures of sunglass wearing "graduates" across their websites to mention all the realities....so despite the bickering maybe this thread is doing some good.

[blind pew]

"Give a pilot a bag of gold coins and he will probably still complain about the weight"
Sums up Pilots to a T.
I was lucky enough to be sponsored...My first airline was diabolical, pay, terms, bullies, accidents, venereal diseases whilst my course mates who had gone to the "charter boys" were creaming it in. It was only nine years after I started at flying college that my parents stopped funding my holidays and I could afford to take my family to a restaurant.(after I changed airlines for the second time). Twenty years of airline flying to a command.
Hardest part of the job was being a FO...dealing with incompetent bullies and their special mates and fortunately there were few in my last company.
In the meantime I had a lot of aviation related health problems but the job gave me a life time of memories.
Closing the throttles six miles up and spooling the engines up as land flap was running 2 miles out. Watching the sunrise from on top of a great Pyramid. Circling Mont Blanc and Mont Mckinley. Dropping out of cloud abeam the Angel falls. Watching the sunrise sipping Caiparinhas on Coppacabana with a choice of crumpet but even better was popping out of the winter smog to play chasing the clouds along the valleys of a sheet of strata CU.
The industry has always been littered with Bullies and bankruptcies - many of my former colleagues would sell their kids along with the grannies but it's no different to the many scumbags who rob us "legally" today.
I was in a flight deck of a well known Loco last autumn...The aircraft was newer and cleaner than most of those in one of my old employers, maintenance no doubt better than my early days. The skipper had more than double my average time off at base, he took home more money than he needed and was ten years younger than I was when I got a command. What he does for a pension I didn't ask but many cast iron ones like TWA and Pan Am disappeared.
My daughter had a high powered city job, loads of money (SFO pay) and for that she worked 100 hours a week, absolute wreck.
I have mates in their 60s still flying commercially...most don't need the money...they just love the life.
Me - I lost my medical nearly two decades ago...I spent ten years teaching various flying disciplines (unpaid)...I climb and fly off mountains now...can't get it out of my system - even wrote a book.
Go for it but don't think heavy metal is always the flying best job or requires the highest skills.
It also can buggar up home life.

One word of advice...you generally get what you put into it so always be up to scratch and read as much as possible - there are several recent discussions where so called professionals - the highest paid in the industry -didn't do their job properly and bent the aircraft because of lack of system knowledge or plain incompetence.

I have a poem on my wall

Everyone who lives dies.
But not every who dies has lived.
We do these things not so much that we may die
But so that we can say we have lived.

[Three Lions]

I see the arguement that this thread is more inclined to reflect life of the "the poor soul living thousands of kilometres from his family, at a base not of his choosing and perhaps also 100K in debt" type character.

However the most important point is that the effect of the LOCOs clinical and sometimes brutal chase of hard currency is dragging the whole industry downwards. It is a very good point that some of the quality operators are having to adapt to survive. hence they are been driven downwards in the slipstream of the likes of RYR and EZY who have no option but to operate the way they do due survive.

The industry has evolved in some parts into something very vulgar.

All that said I disagree with some of the comments of the day to day work apart from the early mornings and occasional brush with security

I for one enjoy the job although I have to admit my own particular heavy bag of "gold coins" is linked to never really being a good riser on a morning and some of the shifts can be brutal on those more advanced in years such as myself

However if you can find a good work/lifestyle balance as you can with the other good careers out there (yes unbelievably there are more decent jobs out there than Airline Pilot especially if you graduate from a decent University) then it can be one of the best jobs in the world. The problem is as stated further up in this thread there is an evolution going on - this evolution suits the operators and the ftos not those at the pointy end of the ship

[truckflyer]

Being oblivious to this "this evolution that suits the operators and the FTOs not those at the pointy end of the ship" - is the short sighted issue at the moment.

"It's great in my company today" - but these companies are also in a race to survive, cutting cost is one of the factors used.

RyR have recently seriously make a U-turn in their pax service, as they discovered it was only so much S.... the pax would put up with.

Still I believe it will take a miracle for them to make the U-turn, as many pax are already so fed up, and will not believe in the new "customer friendly" company!

Unfortunately it might never happen for the employees, as they still believe the future will be brighter, reality is that their escape routes are to companies who have similar philosophy, cost cutting to increase profit margins, avoiding social responsibility, exploring every loop hole in regulations under the sun, totally missing the big picture.

What will happen they day the legacy carriers can't compete with these grey zone regulations. ME companies getting subsidised fuel costs, open skies, exploring the next avenue of acquisition of another company to maximize the profits without regard of the real cost.

It is more likely that legacy carriers will dive towards LCC TC's, than the opposite will happen.
So it involves everybody, not just the newbies, if you have 20 - 30 years career left, be prepared, it most likely will not get better than just now for most!

[Bealzebub]

I don't see many/any of the FTO's mentioning the down side of working for the LCCs, they are too busy plastering pictures of sunglass wearing "graduates" across their websites to mention all the realities....so despite the bickering maybe this thread is doing some good.
Looking at the Three car brochures I have on the desk in front of me, none of them have pictures of a harassed driver, running late for an appointment, and stuck in snail pace queue of traffic on the local motorway/freeway, with torrential rain pouring down outside. Whilst I do not doubt Mr Mercedes product is broadly as described in the brochure, I doubt selling it, is enhanced by portraying the reality of the likely customers experience within minutes of driving one out of the showroom. Indeed if I was paying for "glossy brochures," before a single penny changed hands I would want my product to reflect a message that portrays success on every page. Welcome to the commercial world of capitalism!

I agree with many of the commentators here and particularly those that understand how the market has evolved. It isn't necessary to hate or applaud that evolution in order to understand it. Parts of it are indeed vulgar, but of course "vulgar" sells, which is often why those exemplar companies have done very well out of it. As with most walks of life, the revolution in communication, and particularly mass market accessible communication, has stripped away the mystery, glamour and aura, that once shrouded the occupation called "airline pilot" from the masses. The romance of the job crucially depended on the shroud that those factors were an intrinsic part of. Today you can flick through your 250 channel TV subscription and watch any number of "Airline" type shows edited to show the glamour of tired, fed up, mishandled, abusive, passengers and crew doing a day-in day-out job that is routine. The characters change but the scripts are almost identical from one programme to the next.

You can log on to any number of websites and social media and find out how much your neighbours house is worth or how much he or she earns. If something happens at an airport or on a flight it will be transferred from someone's (anyone's) camera equipped phone to hundreds of thousands of people before the paperwork has even been started. "lo-cost" a term that is representative of the global airline scene in the new Millennium, yet some would labour under the illusion that the term should be "lo-Cost except my salary and T&C's." Over the last 30 years flying got safer. Flying got cheaper. Flying got easier. There have been huge improvements in many aspects of the job. Technology introduced its own set of problems, but without doubt it brought radical improvements in safety, cost, and efficiency.
The 4 crew flight deck of the Fifties and Sixties became the Three crew flight deck of the Sixties and Seventies. Then the Two crew flight deck of the Eighties and Nineties. Then regulation stopped any advancement on that score, so the attention turned to reducing the input costs of the incumbents of those flight decks. Potential new First Officers were queuing around the block for the opportunity to sit in that seat. They were prepared and willing to assume the entire risk element of training themselves at the best schools for the chance of a shot at the major league. Where once "self improvers" needed at least 700 hours for a "non-approved" CPL/IR to start their journey over the commercial stepping stone jobs to the big league, so licencing changes meant that anybody with "250 hours and a dream" could think they were in with a chance. As a result tens if not hundreds of thousands decided that this was the career for them. The supply massively outstripped the demand (or even the most optimistic projection of demand), and still continues to this day.

In the days when flying was expensive, there were far less opportunities available and far fewer people as a proportion chasing those opportunities. The "glamour" jobs where you spent a week in a four/five star hotel with a team of crewmembers twice a month, are a rarity these days. Airlines want maximum" bang for their buck" and if they have to assume this sort of cost they will do so for the minimum level of time and price point. Lo-Co's would choke on their breakfast if their operations didn't maximize every potentially productive hour they could squeeze from any cost clawed out of their vice like grip. This is their lifeblood, their very raison d'être.

In 1974 there were a few really good jobs, a lot of mediocre ones, and some very poor ones. That was true in 1984, 1994, 2004, and today! The names have changed (in some cases) and the T&C's have changed. The better ones attract what they see as the best people. With so many people clamouring at the door that is a bar they can set at whatever level suits them. Nothing new, this has always been the case.

The clever and the wise research the market they are proposing entering. They take the time to understand the history and the evolution of what they intend to participate in (or not.) They may agree, disagree, accept or reject the advice given or sought, but they would be wise to listen. Despite that, there are no guarantees, and luck will always be a significant ingredient of success. Of course the option is to simply rail against the world and highlight how unfair your life is. If I were to invent an adjective for the latter, it would be ......to truckflyer oneself.

[Artie Fufkin]

Truckflyer, I'm trying hard not to react to your nonsense, but somethings cannot be left, such as your disgraceful hypocrisy in a recent comment to AIMINGHIGH123;

It's time for people like you and others to stop feeding the industry, because it is a massive own goal!

... says a man who decided on an ill considered mid forties career change, and chose to accept a job that he openly hated from day one, on a different continent to his family, for money he considers inadequate.

Get your own house in order before flaming others!

[blind pew]

A very good friend of mine had a mate working in the same Essex factory 25 years ago...he gambled his money on a license...I thought good luck as he was in his late 30s...at the time I was at the top of the legacy carrier profession...
He went through LOCO onto exec jets onto a rich man's pilot....
now semi retired...big house, heated swimming pool, nice set of wheels.....works if he feels the need....
It is still out there...you need a bit of luck, a bit of skill and a lot of integrity and hard work.

[Greenlights]

http://www.balpa.org/My-Airline/Airlines/Balpa/Document-library/Careers/BALPA-Pilot-Shortage-Log-Update-2014-03-01.aspx

[truckflyer]

Artie Fufkin;

Not worried about my house, but there is a few that should be worried about their houses!

Been there, done that, and my report is of how it really is for the majority!

There will always be some that enjoy to been taken bent over regardless!

That's the Machavellist in us humans, however being to analyze it and face the reality, is very few who can do.

Denial is a bliss for some!

[truckflyer]

Many seem to be occupied to justify the profession compared to other professions. You need to compare the value of work force. There is of course many from the golden egg days sitting on their mountain, with their views of their truth.
They have worked hard for what they have and deserve it, no envy.

A tube driver will today make more than a pilot.
A bus driver will most likely make more too.

A banker, an accountant a solicitor, a doctor, has the chance to make money without limit depending on talent and ideas.

For a pilot there will be an upper limit, which year by year is decreased to what in the end will be a joke, considering the professions dinosaur history, it will follow and become extinct.

[Greenlights]

Many seem to be occupied to justify the profession compared to other professions. You need to compare the value of work force.


I agree with that too.
I read some comments above and funny to notice that many compare with others jobs in city, 9 to 5 etc...as if all others jobs were the same.
Since i have a vineyard, I get much more than in LCC and live better. I don't live in a city (obviously)...but as it's an english forum I figured out that many talked about London City I guess....anyway glad I don't live there neither, too crowded and too cloudy/rainy for me. ^^
Just to tell : no, there are not only jobs in city with 9 to 5.

People should compare with same jobs.
By comparing with "worst" jobs, sure, you will always accetp lower conditions in that case.
One day, some pilots will say "oh it's ok, I make more than a homeless person".
During this time the manager in the arline makes 10x more by doing a more confortable job where he can only hurts himself with a pen.

[wiggy]

Indeed if I was paying for "glossy brochures," before a single penny changed hands I would want my product to reflect a message that portrays success on every page. Welcome to the commercial world of capitalism!

If I handed over a significant amount of money to the car salesman for say, a Mercedes depicted in a glossy brochure I'd expect to receive said car, not suddenly be told I'd been entered into some form of lottery that gives me a chance of receiving a random make of car at some time in the future .....
(Mine's a Citreon BTW:uhoh:)

[FANS]

Come on Wiggy, that car's just for your commute, you can't ignore the weekend one or the wife's!

[wiggy]

My better half also runs a Citroen (long story..... ) :uhoh:


What's a weekend? :ok:

[truckflyer]

I think the general advice is "lower your expectations" - after paying for the Mercedes Limo version, don't expect to get it with an engine inside, they will actually get you an old bombed out limo from Saddam's days in Iraq, with a few holes in for ventilation!

Of course the industry is not that bad, if your main aim in life is to be married to the airline and have no other private life! However to get engaged with the airline, you must know they will take you blood and suck you dry, and we all just love it!

Now all these guys comparing this with other jobs, maybe I am just plain lucky than, having had a job paying more than most captain salaries, being able to do what I want when I want for 90% of my time!

And I never needed to work 9 to 5, or run into the city (any city), sometimes I could sit working on the beach of Santa Monica, even if life was high pressure, does not mean that this is the only life that let's you see the blue sky and sunshine during your working hours.
As I said in past post, I don't have any regrets, and there is parts of the profession I enjoy, and most people I work with are great, no complaints - however to say that the profession is in a healthy position would be a lie.

But some will rather bite of their own nose, instead admitting the dire situation the industry is in.

[FANS]

With your seniority, you'd know all about weekends....!

[cavortingcheetah]

In the meantime, broaden your horizons, and those of others, while contributing to the good of society in a highly competitive job entry market for this slot.
Wanted in Sri Lanka: hangman, must not fear gallows | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/11/wanted-sri-lanka-hangman-fear-gallows)