EY461 Toilet Fires

[Gulfstreamaviator]

This is in todays National newspaper, so is in public domain.

But can not be metioned here.

So I will attempt to remove all references to the the route / operator/ type of aircraft. Passengers names have been sanitised to protect the environment.

The ------------- Airways flight from Melbourne to ---------- was diverted to Jakarta (http://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/etihad-investigates-diversion-to-jakarta-of-flight-from-melbourne) as the smoke billowed from the plane’s lavatories.
The plane took off again but more smoke was detected, and 12 passengers were held (http://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/12-passengers-detained-in-abu-dhabi-after-smoke-detection-forced-etihad-plane-to-divert) for questioning by security authorities when the flight landed in --------.
Jared Marshall, 34, a cameraman and photographer from Melbourne, said an alarm sounded and red lights flashed outside a lavatory in the middle of the plane, five rows ahead of his seat, about five hours after the flight took off, when most passengers were asleep.
An attendant opened the door and “smoke poured into the cabin”, he said. “They spent some time with fire extinguishers and water to put out the fire. We all assumed it was electrical.”
The pilot announced that it was illegal to smoke on the plane. Soon afterwards, another incident occurred in the rear lavatory, Mr Marshall said.
Some passengers in the back said they saw flames and smoke, though he did not see flames himself.
“You could see the concern on the attendants’ faces as they rushed to extinguish the fires,” Mr Marshall said.
“The mood among the passengers was more one of disbelief than fear.”
Heather Bullard, 60, a British insurance adviser who was seated near a lavatory, said: “I was asked if I had noticed anyone using the toilet but as I was sleeping I couldn’t help.”
When the plane landed in Indonesia there was a security search of the aircraft, passengers and carry-on luggage.
Once the flight resumed, attendants checked the lavatories after each passenger left, Mr Marshall said, but another alarm sounded and more smoke poured into the cabin.
“You could really sense the alarm and stress of the attendants and passengers at this stage. Everyone was a potential suspect,” he said.
The crew then announced that passengers could not use the lavatories, and stood guard at the doors. Catering services were stopped, though attendants occasionally delivered water, Mr Marshall said.
“The work of the flight attendants was very professional and they remained calm in a very dangerous situation and possibly saved the lives of everyone, and I am amazed that some people have been critical of them for stopping catering services,” he said.
Australian passenger Luke Oliver, 37, praised the cabin crew for their response. They were “very quick to respond each time and remained calm”, he said.
“There was a sense that everyone on board wanted whoever had done this to be caught.”
“By the end of the flight the crew were guarding the toilets. We were just waiting to land and end the ordeal.”
Ms Bullard said attendants tried to compensate for the lack of meal services.
“Security and safety of the passengers was their number one priority, and to put this in place some services had to be sacrificed, ie hot food,” she said.
“They regularly brought round water and muffins.”
Another passenger, Sarah Heather, 31, a British call centre worker, said: “When we got to -------- it was quite chaotic.
“We all got taken off to be searched but no one was telling us where to go or what was happening until we got to the Airline desk.”
Ms Heather questioned whether the flight should have been cancelled before leaving Jakarta.
“Quite scary that this person got back on the flight and did it a third time,” she said.
Ms Bullard, who was flying home after visiting two sons in Australia, described the mood of passengers as the incidents unfolded.
“Some passengers were texting loved ones as they were fearing the worst,” she said.
“So you can get an idea of the rising tension on the plane.”
The flight arrived in ------ four hours behind schedule, after a seven-hour journey from Indonesia, at 10.25am on Tuesday.
It is not yet known what caused the smoke, but authorities are still investigating.
[email protected]


Read more: http://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/passengers-recount-drama-of-smoke-alarm-incident-on-XXXXXXX -flight-to-XXX-XXXXX#ixzz2tqpu1zLe

[cjhants]

Discussion on the ANZ forum

[Sober Lark]

An inflight display of smoke and mirrors?

[J-Class]

Now widely reported including CNN and the Guardian. No point posting the link, as it includes the name of the airline which cannot be mentioned here.

[J-Class]

Oh dear. The name of the airline has been mentioned....

[momo95]

:= enjoy this while it lasts :E

[Mail-man]

Its been in the oz thread for days, what are y'all on about?

[momo95]

The airline in question isn't to be mentioned, expect all threads about said airline to disappear. As with the one on here yesterday ...

[Hotel Tango]

In actual fact the name of the airline is irrelevant. Could happen to any airline.

[fox niner]

This is almost like the play by Shakespeare, that was not supposed to be mentioned.

MacBeth.......

[BOAC]

In actual fact the name of the airline is irrelevant. Could happen to any airline. - Oi! spot the difference? You can post about any other airline.

[Sober Lark]

If you hide something from people they become more curious so I don't think the control or supression of information works.

[Trim Stab]

If you hide something from people they become more curious so I don't think the control or supression of information works.

Also gives them a bad image. If they are afraid of being discussed on a public forum, then they must have a lot to hide. I have them on my mental list of carriers to think twice about using now that they have banned discussion of their name on here.

[Dream Buster]

Trim Stab - FYI - that would be the "Streisand effect":

"The Streisand effect is the phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet."


Streisand effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)

[kcockayne]

What was the ETD ?

[MrDuck]

fromDaveReidUK:
Though, frankly, I wouldn't expect a "Smoke in Toilet" thread to last long in Rumours & News"

I think it is more the multiple fires, clearly set, over a period of time.
Would this not alarm you?

[BOAC]

Obviously DR is unmoved by multiple fires and a diversion on a long ETOPS flight - cool, man!

[oceancrosser]

Probably as along as required at any given time :) likely an augmented or double crew though.

Appears to me that the initial thread in fact vanished.

[Bobman84]

Most interesting that the other thread disappeared.

It's news and was on all the news sources in Australia.

What exactly are the mods afraid of here? It's a forum! :ugh:

[lomapaseo]

would the name of the airline have any relationship to the code in front of the flight number ?

[Sober Lark]

Sounds like the activities of a person who suffers from pyromania.

[pilotmike]

What was the ETD ?
Did you mean to refer to the EsTImAteD time of departure?:mad:

[NG_Kaptain]

That flight carries a double crew. Can go up to 22 hours.

[Hotel Tango]

- Oi! spot the difference? You can post about any other airline. retorts BOAC.

:confused::confused::confused:

So what? Doesn't change the fact that the name of the airline involved is, in this case, completely IRRELEVANT to the main thrust of the story. What IS relevant is that a person, or persons, lit fires on a commercial passenger flight.

[Moony123]

likely an augmented or double crew though.

Double crew.

Edit - Thoroughly beaten by NG_Kaptain

[BOAC]

So what? - I think you have missed the way this thread is angled, HT. Of course it is 'relevant' and therefore the concern here is that because of the airline concerned the thread might 'disappear' since the legal threats from the airline have wobbled the wobbly upper lip of PPRune. However, credit to the key holders, it is still with us.

Some, like DR, do not see this 'fire' event as a problem (a mere 'drop in the ocean'........whoops, pun intended). I think professional pilots do, I trust pax do too, and we all would like this thread to continue and furnish us with more information. I cannot see how the name of the airline is relevant, but the event is.

[kcockayne]

pilotmike

What else ?

[RoyHudd]

Whole business is pathetic, and reeks of censorship. The idiots who demand it will attract much more negative attention than they expected. Serves the dogs right.

[Hotel Tango]

I think you have missed the way this thread is angled, HT

No BOAC. I think you may have missed the way this thread has been hijacked and angled away from the original subject.

[wild goose]

The name of the airline is very relevant for the simple reason that the way the incidents were handled have a direct bearing on the safety and security procedures of that airline.
The passengers and crew of that flight had their lives directly threatened by those same policies and procedures.
Probably the most questionable aspect is the airline agreeing to allow all passengers to reboard the aircraft without any serious attempt to find the culprit(s).
Access to the toilets remained perfectly free only until the last fire was set.

This can only be described as a high altitude version of Russian Roulette.
This airline is very fortunate (as are the occupants of the aircraft) that a disaster did not occur in the second half of the flight in particular, after reboarding the culprit.
The captains decision to proceed like this is also worth considering.
The apology for interrupting the meal service is commendable.
What about a word about gambling with peoples' lives?
Exposing this airline (union in Arabic) is of paramount public interest and importance.

Some people only learn after lots of people are killed. Anything prior to that threshold is a waste of time.

[Sober Lark]

Which safety board will investigate this incident (s)?

[DISCOKID]

Its not you that will be sued its PPRuNE. PPRuNE doesn't have money to fund expensive lawyers and court cases so you can understand why they comply rather than risking the future of the whole website.

[onetrack]

I don't know what the secrecy is all about, when it's all over the Australian news scene.

Passengers detained after fires lit on Melbourne Etihad flight (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/passengers-detained-after-fires-lit-on-melbourne-etihad-flight-20140220-331x8.html)

[Hotel Tango]

You're making quite a few assumptions there Wild Goose! How much of what you allege is fact? Were you party to the reasons for the operational decisions made? Or are they based on the always acurate media reports you have read? Just curious.

[Brookfield Abused]

Obviously Smoke Hoods/PBE's were used - i.e. useless afterwards?
Same goes for Halon / Water Extinguishers - i.e. also now not avail.!
What about the Toilet Waste Bin extinguishers - if they discharged then the toilet is also U/S?
Oh ya, the impact on the CC and were they safe to fly after such a series of events prior to diversion A/P departure? Ah, that falls under CRM I think?

So after the diversion - somebody must have read the MEL or was the "get home-itis" slash orders from OPS, so over powering that they left below the MMEL regarding toilets available, PBE's, extinguishers?

Seems very strange that with pax reporting flames, etc., the Waste Bins did not discharge in the first place? I would think after seeing the first bin failed to work (if the case) you'd block all toilets and then divert if the case? Since a "heavy crew" no mention of extra Cockpit surveying!
Seems unlikely that less then 3-5 fire extinguishers were used?
So at least 2-3 toilets were also U/S after the diversion?
How could they leave and continue?

[poorjohn]

Poor spot for the captain to find himself in; I don't envy him.

Just guessing, but it's easy to imagine that the local cops treated the incident with less interest than at any first-world airport. "Did you start the fires?" No. "Did you see anyone start the fires?" No. Next passenger. They obviously didn't deprive the perp of his/her incendiary material.

I suppose after the next in-flight fire I'd consider diverting to the nearest "suitable airport" being one stocked with a large contingent of TSA-like folks with nothing better to do than lock up people who like to mess with aircraft. Sure would be (alas much too) hard to convince ops to go along with that.

[Al Murdoch]

Yes, the TSA, such well-regarded folk...

[FBW390]

Wild Goose, with the elements and witnesses stories (pax) we have, I find your comments very good. YES, after the Jakarta stop the flight shouldn't have taken off again with all pax, including the one starting fires! Well, he/she did again!:D.
:ugh:
Very poor decision to take off from CGK by the captain with the problem unsolved. Even with strong pressure from management to return to base AUH , the captain must not depart if a safety or security problem on board is not solved!
It was very serious and could have ended tragically!

[GroundScot]

Jakarta is a base for the airline with full cover, double daily services so one would assume spares for replacement, if not can easily be acquired from pool spares partners

[outofsynch]

As the reports stated...The passengers were all put through thorough security checks, before re-boarding. How can the airline justify not continuing the flight, and penalising all passengers. I don't believe anyone was forced to re-board if they felt it wasn't safe.

If there was no way to identify who started the fires, what other decision could the Captain make?

Should ALL the passengers be banned from ever flying again?

[TeachMe]

+1

Instead of suggesting how the situation was handled was somehow 'wrong', perhaps those criticizing could suggest an alternative that would have been better. Clearly most of those on board were innocent and had a 'right' to continue their flight within a reasonable time frame. Personally the only thing I can think of would have been to have a double roster of cabin crew / security guards sent down to man the toilets and check after each person used it. Any other reasonable suggestions?

[nonsense]

According to The Australian newspaper, "lighters and matches were confiscated in Jakarta before passengers were let back on the flight" (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/passengers-held-after-fires-lit-during-scary-flight/story-e6frg95x-1226832410496) Presumably the aircraft was also searched for lighters and matches.

Given the disruption routinely caused by minor security breaches (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/passengers-evacuated-in-melbourne-airport-security-breach-20140223-339x6.html) (Melbourne Airport's spokeswoman's phrase in this particular case today, not mine) at airports with no evidence at all of any malicious intent, it seems quite extraordinary that in the face of clear evidence that an actual arsonist intent on setting fire to the aircraft was amongst the passengers, the flight continued with the culprit(s) aboard.

I don't have the answers; there was little else they could do but continue on, since they were unable to identify the culprit(s), but this seems to fly in the face of the efforts made to rectify airport security breaches on the ground and the level of resultant disruption considered acceptable.

Seriously, it's OK to strand thousands for a few hours because someone turned their back on a door for 30 seconds, but it's not OK to strand several hundred people when you KNOW one of them has already made several attempts to set fire to a long haul aircraft which is about to fly hours from land, because you don't know which one it was? After all, at the end of the day, its clever people with a death wish that bring down planes, not nail clippers or bottled water.

[Una Due Tfc]

It always surprised my that you can't bring a yoghurt or toothpaste on board an airplane now, and yet matches and lighters are fine

[FBW390]

@Teach me : double roster of crew? The crew from the other EY flt in CGK?Safety guards? Where do you find them? Do you know they have to be rated, trained, approved to fly on an aircraft? 2 months?
I don't know the solution but as Nonsense said : you find it OK to fly with the pyroman just because you haven't found him?:ugh::ugh:
So YES, as myself a long-haul captain, I'm criticizing the decision to take-off again from CGK in these conditions. Find him or find a solution but do not go with such a risk unsolved!

[poorjohn]

Serious nonsense. After the police have done all they're willing to do, what is the captain to do? Questioning their authority or competence is not unlikely to create negative consequence for the captain himself.

Were the pax further questioned at their destination?

[goeasy]

So FBW390..... Just how many days/weeks would you holiday in CGK hoping that the culprit would give up and cough....

And if they never did? You'd retire there?

[EEngr]

Any thoughts that this person wasn't a crazy fire bug but was conducting a dry run for a new terrorist attack?

Sure, they confiscated matches and lighters from pax on subsequent legs of this flight. But the telling piece if information will be the authorities willingness to prohibit such material on all flights in the future. Even if this was just a nut job, the bad guys are most certainly watching this.

[jaytee54]

If we were serious about flight safety, then years ago we would have banned the carriage of cigarettes, cigars etc AND the matches and lighters that accompany them. We would also have banned all flamable liquids from the cabin, & that includes all alcoholic drinks and perfumes and anything you can't prove is just water.
There should be random searches for such items and HUGE penalties (prison) for being caught.
I know it would upset the owners of the shopping malls that we all fly from, but are we serious about safety or do we only care about the retail industry and "security" job-creation industry??

[A and C]

A total overreaction I think, the whole industry is not going to change in response to the stupid acts of one individual.

[FBW390]

So goeasy, you take off and it burns...It nearly happened! If you have the good, safe and legal solution , please tell me.

[PPL Hobbyist]

Eengr, You have almost read my mind in your last posting.

What I was, and am about to say/ask is: What will the new security measures entail now? Confiscation of lighters, matches and cigarettes before boarding?

That has happened to me at one or two African airports. One security officer even confiscated all my spare camera batteries. The irony of it was, he let me keep the batteries that were in the camera. That really had me muttering a bunch of words stringed together in long sentences that I dare not repeat here.

Has that happened to anybody in any of the european ir US airports?

[EEngr]

the whole industry is not going to change in response to the stupid acts of one individual. Like Richard Reid?

[ExXB]

… or Ibrahim Savant, Arafat Khan and Waheed Zaman ?

(OK, that's three)

[Una Due Tfc]

Jaytee

All airports with services to the U.S. Have the beverages, food items etc screened before being allowed passed security. U.S. Officials check this regularly (not sure how). There was a big kerfuffle in Dublin a few years ago when one of these random inspections found the checks being done were not of the required standard.

[goeasy]

You are missing my point.

It is unfair to criticise a fellow colleague, without having your own explanation, of what YOU would have done to identify the perpetrator, or ensure 100% safety to continue the flight.

We all operate in an environment of compromise between sensible practicable safety measures, and completing the operation we are employed for.

Can you please explain what you would have done in this situation, without a confession from the guilty?

[Flying Clog]

OK goeasy here we go -

As Captain, (without a confession from the numpty perpetrator):

1. Everyone off in Jakarta
2. Thorough security inspection of entire aircraft
3. All hand baggage, handbags, laptop bags, coats into the hold (or you're refused boarding)
4. Pat down of every passenger in the air bridge for lighters and matches, that include burkhas and tea towels
5. One crew member guarding every pair of toilets for remainder of flight

ONLY then, blast off for Abu Dhabi. (If you're not out of hours by then)

Anything less than that stinks of 'the unmentionable airline' interfering with the Captain's authority.

[FBW390]

Goeasy:
Flying Clog has been faster than me! Very good answer!:ok:

[Sober Lark]

Could a captain arrange 1-5 to a level that instills sufficient confidence for him/her to continue the journey?

There was always the option not to continue the journey any further.

[Farrell]

3. All hand baggage, handbags, laptop bags, coats into the hold (or you're refused boarding)
4. Pat down of every passenger in the air bridge for lighters and matches, that include burkhas and tea towels
5. One crew member guarding every pair of toilets for remainder of flight


Some bright spark in management might make that a standard for all flights!

[goeasy]

Ok... I can understand some of those checks helping. Most of which were done, as far as media reported.

Though the flight would probably still be there now, whilst the arguments about surrendering hand baggage/valuables raged on...

And fully agree with banning all cigs matches/lighters on all flights. And make smokers travel naked, because their clothes stink too!

And even if the flight was cancelled, or discontinued, the perpetrators would just hop on the next flight, whatever the airline.... hopefully yours FBW, so you could cancel it, and go back to hotel for a beer!

Cheers :ok: :}

[ironbutt57]

Wonder if they searched the crew??

[cockney steve]

Small CCTV cameras, discreet, aimed to cover toilet, movement-sensitive , comes complete with SD memory-card slot and battery-power........attached by clips or suckers, could be placed by CC before boarding.
As it's not a fixture,no need for certification and all the crap attached to that......cost~£100-£300 each....less than a month's wage for a Hostie, to cover all the toilets and probably most of the cabin.
In case of incident.....review footage for last entry or two , to the bog.....99.5+ of pax immediately eliminated from enquiry.

Cheap, simple, cost effective....Oh, and like a CVR, they automatically overwrite the card, so you have a rolling record of last few hours, depending on frame-rate and trigger-threshold.

but that's too easy, isn't it....no jobs for the boys there.

Antisocial pax could always be shown the door at 10K feet, before resuming cruise:}

[CDRW]

Ironb.... very very good point - no one as yet has suggested that it could have been a disgruntled crew member ( including flight deck).

[Sober Lark]

A large proportion of airline incidents these days seem to be lavatory related ;-)
Wasn't there a FA airworthiness directive to remove the emergency oxygen tanks in certain aircraft lavatories or did they decide against?

[Wannabe Flyer]

Best of my knowledge and experience the MEL security goes thru great lengths to check and confiscate liquid, lighters and matches.

I think there could be some weight age to post #48. Seems to be some time delay inflammable device dropped into the bin. What is scary is that this device seems to have made it thru at least 3 screenings of which 2 were specifically looking for it.

I seriously doubt it is a smoker as the alarm would have gone off a few puffs after he lit up and before he exited the lavatory.

Wonder if some forensic analysis was done on the bins to see what was the source of the ignition?

[gcal]

@cockney steve

Not every nation is as gung ho about CCTV as the UK and in some there are very strict regulations as to how they may be used; much more strict that the slap happy system the brits languish under.
In Spain for instance you may have a CCTV system showing people entering your shop but it may not show the faces of anyone passing by on the street; nor the faces of people once they have entered your shop.
That is the reason you will see security guards in Spanish supermarkets and shops; covert security is not allowed. The country has suffered enough from that in the past.

[poorjohn]

Lacking any news of follow-up investigation makes me think the carrier has forgotten all about the incident and wishes we would to.

Say what you will about US's Bad Ol' TSA, if the diversion had been to a US port the re-clearing process would have been a lot more intensive. Not saying that was do-able.

[Dont Hang Up]

Cockney Steve

I read

Small CCTV cameras, discreet, aimed to cover toilet

...and for one horrible moment I thought you were serious! Then I read...

movement-sensitive

:D :D

[cockney steve]

@ D.H.U. Freudian slip :}:ok: "cover entry to toilet":E
@ Gcal.....But an aircraft, like a ship, is "stateless"...hence Duty free liquor etc..
Covert surveillance in public areas, has, afaik, to be signed by clearly-visible public notices....then it's up to you if you want to enter that "zone" or not.

I'd suggest the Spanish economy is doing badly, partly through the artificial increase in overheads by employing security staff where cameras would suffice.

Given time, even if there were signs aboard, announcing CCTV surveillance, most people soon ignore them....the ones to target , are the furtive lookers -around. I see little difference to protecting over 99.5 %of Pax on a flight, this way, than the intrusive, timewasting charade that currently masquerades as "security"....you accept that , or don't fly.....and the drop in airline-travel would appear to indicate there are a significant proportion of the populace who will not tolerate this hassle and use alternative travel means.

[GPRS]

A lot of arithmetic D.L , distance, wind , ground time :ugh: !! it's simple mate " AUGMENTED crew " , 2 captains, 2 FOs ! Max FDP 22 hrs.