Heading 090 DEGREES

[Pin Head]

Given a radar heading.

Reply - Continue heading 090 DEGREES


Uk RT is for all headings ending in a 0, must have degrees after them spoken to avoid confusion. Is this applicable worldwide (bar USA) who do there own thing?

If so do you have a reference.

Thanks

Pin

[hvogt]

Appending the word 'degrees' to those heading figures where the heading ends in zero is not prescribed by ICAO. According to 5.2.1.4.1.1 of ICAO Annex 10, Volume II, a heading of 100 degrees is to be transmitted as 'heading one zero zero' and a heading of 080 degrees is to be transmitted as 'heading zero eight zero'.

The Manual of Radiotelephony (Doc 9432) goes even further and states in 3.1.3 of Chapter 3: 'The following words may be omitted from transmissions provided that no confusion or ambiguity will result: [...] b) "DEGREES" in relation to radar headings.'

[Plazbot]

A crusty old guy who trained me once said that every number has a name. 'Turn left heading XXX' not 'turn left heading XXX degrees'. Heading is the name. Flight level, feet, QNH, Centre, DME, all names.

[kharmael]

I think there was a change in the UK phraseology a while back which was designed to further reduce confusion by having the parameter plus the unit in case you don't hear one of them.

Climb Altitude six thousand feet. Descend Height one thousand feet. Turn right Heading Zero Nine Zero DEGREES. Set QNH Nine Nine Eight Hectopascals, Speed two two zero knots or less.

[Pin Head]

That's exactly right.

Interestingly enough there is an appendix at the back of cap 413 with rt differences from icao. No mention of degrees there.

[zonoma]

But in the CAP 413 examples for radar vectoring (Chapter 5, page 7), any example where the heading ends with a "0", degrees is also said, and those examples ending in "5" do not have degrees. I cannot find anywhere a sentence that specifies this!

[Pin Head]

Correct. It's to avoid flight level 100, 200, 300 confusion - hence DEGREeS

[Clear2Land78]

I wish I could contribute but I am from the USA and we just do our own thing over here. Have so for years, actually decades, maybe even centuries ... i.e. English vs. Metric .. LOL :p

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I always used "everything". It's called "belt and braces" over here.

[reportyourlevel]

But in the CAP 413 examples for radar vectoring (Chapter 5, page 7), any example where the heading ends with a "0", degrees is also said, and those examples ending in "5" do not have degrees. I cannot find anywhere a sentence that specifies this!

CAP493 Appendix E Page 10 Para 5.1.3 or CAP413 Chapter 3 Page 1 Para 1.1.3:

"For all transmissions, with the exception of those used for surveillance or precision radar approaches, “degrees” shall be appended to heading figures where the heading ends in zero, or in cases where confusion or ambiguity may result."

[zonoma]

Pin Head - it is to distinguish from ALL flight levels AND headings ending in zero. Your post alludes to the use of wun hundred/two hundred degrees being permitted to be said just as, which is incorrect, "hundred" is not to be used when referring to a heading.

reportyourlevel, thanks for that. Your CAP493 reference no longer exists, Attachment/appendix E has been totally rewritten and all examples of phraseology removed, nothing in attachment/appendix E refers to headings and degrees. However, although again slightly changed, the CAP413 Chapter 3 page 1, and now para 3.3 does state exactly what you wrote, cheers. :ok:

[A Squared]

Is this applicable worldwide (bar USA) who do there own thing?

Huh, so apparently it's actually the UK who's "doing their own thing"

The irony.

[2 sheds]

I think there was a change in the UK phraseology a while back which was designed to further reduce confusion by having the parameter plus the unit in case you don't hear one of them.

Climb Altitude six thousand feet. Descend Height one thousand feet. Turn right Heading Zero Nine Zero DEGREES. Set QNH Nine Nine Eight Hectopascals, Speed two two zero knots or less.

kharmael - where did you get those "UK" examples from?

2 s

[chevvron]

The use of either a '5' at the end of a heading when radar vectoring or '0' followed by 'degrees' is what is known as 'best practice' phraseology in order to avoid a heading instruction being confused with a level change under 'high workload'.

[2 sheds]

'best practice'
A nonsensical and meaningless term bandied around by people who wish to pontificate but take no responsibility. (IMHO, of course!)

2 s

[Plazbot]

The concept of best practice is all about degradation to the next most restrictive. Eventually it will end at the bottom. It excludes the possibility of a world leader.

[Talkdownman]

'best practice'
A nonsensical and meaningless term bandied around by people who wish to pontificate but take no responsibility.

So-called 'best practices' are neither one thing nor the other. They should be SOPs or not at all. Some nats LCEs had their own 'best practice' views, deluded themselves that they were SOPs, and tried to apply them during examination debriefing. Out of order.

[zonoma]

Best practice? Where does that come from? The book says "shall" use degrees following a heading ending in zero, which I believe is far more than just best practice, and certainly something a UCE should be picking up on.

[Talkdownman]

Just wait until you get a jobsworth UCE who pontificates that it's (his/her) 'best practice' to include units regardless ie. degrees for any heading, hectopascals for barometric settings 1000 hPa and above, and anything else about which he/she 'gets a feeling in the water'…etc...

…because they are out there…and should be reined in by CAA SARG...

[zonoma]

Getting you now talkdownman, fortunately my small bit of NATS doesn't contain any of them but I'm sure I'll encounter something similar before my career is out.......

[Big Pistons Forever]

Reminds me of an exchange I heard awhile ago. Terminal was providing flight following service to a VFR aircraft. It was very busy with many light aircraft on the frequency yet the controller was helping everybody out even though he was not required to provide any service in the area.

ATC: "Cessna XXX there are several opposing aircraft if you fly an easterly heading for about 5 miles you will be clear of all traffic"

The reply in a very British accent with quite a supercilious tone:

ABC terminal this is Cessna 172 C-GABC shouldn't you have told me to fly a heading of 090 degrees.

This gem was greeted with a short response

ATC: "Cessna ABC radar service terminated"


:E

[chevvron]

Farnborough ATIS always gives the qnh as hectopascals even when it's well above 1000 millibars (sic)

[Nautilus Blue]

What I find odd is that different ANSPs use almost identical arguments to support different, sometimes opposite, procedures/phraseologies - less ambiguous, worlds best practice etc.

[EastofKoksy]

To me the use of the word "heading" is self explanatory. It means the numbers that follow it are, rather surprisingly, referring to a heading.

I have found that during my 25 plus years as a controller, safety has turned into an industry that now employs hundreds of consultants, experts and managers. In a similar way that can be seen with human factors issues, these people justify their existence by all kinds of initiatives of the 'teach your grand mother to suck eggs' variety.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Nothing like the old days..

London Approach: "TWA xxx report leaving Ockham heading 060 degrees".

TWA: "Give ya sixty out of Ockham. Tell y'bout it".

[anotherthing]

Chevvron,

I personally think that if you are mandated to say Hectopascals for some circumstances then you might as well say it in every instance. It then reduces the chance of forgetting to say it when mandated and getting screwed over for it of you have an incident...

Talkdownman... as a CAPC I would be very pee'd off if a UCE behaved like that and would encourage any controller to challenge such behaviour and would support them to the hilt. in no uncertain terms

[Plazbot]

I assumed that saying Hectopascals was as a back up to the confusion of inches of Hg when you start saying 9s. That said, I don't work UK airspace so we don't say it anyway.

[Talkdownman]

as a CAPC I would be very pee'd off
What is a CAPC? Controller of Approach Control? Chief AirPort Controller?College Assessor of Previous Competence? Civil Aviation Publication Collector? Civil Aviation Police Constable? Coordinator of Aviation Political Correctness?...

[Plazbot]

Condescending Asshole Posting Content?

[Married a Canadian]

Saying "degrees" with all headings ending in zero just seems pointless for certain parts of ATC.
If a pilot being vectored onto final approach at an airport mistakes a "Turn left heading 330" instruction for "Climb FL330" and then decides to actually climb to said Flight level even though they want to land at the airport they are receiving vectors for....there are serious problems in world aviation. :rolleyes: