Hello! Central Scotland PPL - where to go?

[dst87]

Hello everyone!

I've been told to check out this forum by a friend on a completely unrelated forum, so hello!

I plan to start working towards a PPL this year, and am trying to immerse myself in aviation as it's fascinated me since I was a child (now 26). Flying has been a dream of mine for ages, but only now do I have the money to think about pursuing the hobby.

I'm still getting to grips with this site, but have browsed a little bit so far.

My question: I'm based in Falkirk and am trying to decide on a school for PPL. I'm drawn to Tayside Aviation in Dundee, despite the distance from Falkirk, and am booked into their open day in March to learn more about the school. They also offer a summer school so I'm interesting in hearing more about that.

I'm also aware of ACS Aviation at Cumbernauld which would be much more convenient, but have less information on their website.

My goals are simply to enjoy flying. My dream is to fly professionally, but I know how difficult that can be (and how costly) so for now I'm going to try and enjoy flying as a hobby!

I'd be really grateful for any advice/hints/tips/points you can offer. I've never been more excited about something in my life :)

Cheers,

Duncan

[xrayalpha]

Hi Dst,

Welcome to Pprune!

And well done for now having the resources to be able to start flying.

Your choices of schools are:

ACS (Leading Edge) at Cumbernauld, Glasgow or Perth
Tayside at Glenrothes and Dundee
Edinburgh Flying Club
Border Air Training at Cumbernauld

and, possibly (the wild card!) ourselves at Strathaven.

Things to look at are :

Location: how far to travel (petrol can cost 20p a mile), weather (some people say the East Coast has better weather, but it can also get fogged in with easterly winds) and how busy the airfield is (you cannot do circuits - ie learning take-off and landing - at Edinburgh, I understand, so have to fly to Fife for that.)

Aircraft: which types - some like high wing, some prefer low wing, their condition etc

Instructors: how often are they there. Will you have the same one right though training, or will you get passed from one to another or is "your" instructor only available on odd days.

Fellow students/pilots: you can learn a bit from being with them.

Cost: To exaggerate, three hours with an instructor at £100 per hour is obviously worse value than one £250 an hour with an instructor who can teach you the same skills in 60 minutes. So lesson cost is not everything. And beware of other fees like "club membership", "landing fees" and what insurance is offered if you have an accident.

You mention flying as a hobby. If you do not really want to become a commercial pilot at the moment, it might be worth popping down to see us at Strathaven and having a shot in our C42 "microlight". The C42 is a modern German-built light aircraft that can just squeeze into the microlight category (by 500 grams!).

Quite a few of our folk have got their microlight licence and then spent three hours upgrading to an NPPL for light aircraft. And for the next year and a half, or so, there is a very clear route from microlight to the new European Light Aircraft Pilots Licence and then on to the EASA SEP.

ps. Don't worry about "open days". Most flying schools should be happy to see you and have a chat most days - after all, you are going to be spending £1,000s! Just give them a ring the day before to make sure someone who can answer all your questions will be around - after all, they might be flying!

[thing]

Hi DST. Can't help you with the schools but can assure you that the excitement will increase once you start! Good luck and welcome to penury!

[RTN11]

I'd ignore the open day and just go in on a regular day, gives you more of an impression of how the school runs and how friendly and helpful they will or will not be.

[riverrock83]

DST - welcome to the forum!
If I were you I wouldn't go as far as Dundee. Spending 2h40min travelling by car for every hour you're in the air, then finding when you get there that there is a problem with weather / airport / aircraft / instructor so you can't actually get up would be pretty tough going - your motivation could be tested!

If you're thinking of this as a hobby, then I'd look at a more club orientated location rather than simply a school. You'll find more people to chat to / help you / fly with, even at the quieter clubs. I learnt and still fly from Prestwick Flying Club and enjoy the chat and atmosphere - I recommend it but I'd again say it is probably a bit far for you.

It is worth thinking about where you want to take your hobby. Once you've finished your training, will you still have money to fly? Are you always going to hire an aircraft or join a group / buy your own? Do you want to fly out with others?
I'm a pretty new PPL but am in a group at Prestwick. If I wasn't in a group, I'd certainly be looking at 3-axis microlights. I hear very good reports...

[dst87]

Your choices of schools are:

ACS (Leading Edge) at Cumbernauld, Glasgow or Perth
Tayside at Glenrothes and Dundee
Edinburgh Flying Club
Border Air Training at Cumbernauld

and, possibly (the wild card!) ourselves at Strathaven.

Things to look at are :

Location: how far to travel (petrol can cost 20p a mile), weather (some people say the East Coast has better weather, but it can also get fogged in with easterly winds) and how busy the airfield is (you cannot do circuits - ie learning take-off and landing - at Edinburgh, I understand, so have to fly to Fife for that.)

Aircraft: which types - some like high wing, some prefer low wing, their condition etc

Instructors: how often are they there. Will you have the same one right though training, or will you get passed from one to another or is "your" instructor only available on odd days.

Fellow students/pilots: you can learn a bit from being with them.

Cost: To exaggerate, three hours with an instructor at £100 per hour is obviously worse value than one £250 an hour with an instructor who can teach you the same skills in 60 minutes. So lesson cost is not everything. And beware of other fees like "club membership", "landing fees" and what insurance is offered if you have an accident.

Thank you for the information. I'm now leaning away from Tayside on distance but will consider all of the other points you mentioned.

You mention flying as a hobby. If you do not really want to become a commercial pilot at the moment, it might be worth popping down to see us at Strathaven and having a shot in our C42 "microlight". The C42 is a modern German-built light aircraft that can just squeeze into the microlight category (by 500 grams!).

Quite a few of our folk have got their microlight licence and then spent three hours upgrading to an NPPL for light aircraft. And for the next year and a half, or so, there is a very clear route from microlight to the new European Light Aircraft Pilots Licence and then on to the EASA SEP.

My dream is to be a commercial pilot, so when faced with similar options I'd rather take the path that increases those chances if I decide to go for it in the future, which is why I was focussed on the EASA PPL (I think?) Honestly, I'm still getting my head round all of the options that are available, between NPPL, PPL, LAPL it's all rather confusing at the moment so I'm trying to research as much as possible.

I'd rather stick with whatever gives me the most flexibility in the future.

[dst87]

DST - welcome to the forum!
If I were you I wouldn't go as far as Dundee. Spending 2h40min travelling by car for every hour you're in the air, then finding when you get there that there is a problem with weather / airport / aircraft / instructor so you can't actually get up would be pretty tough going - your motivation could be tested!

If you're thinking of this as a hobby, then I'd look at a more club orientated location rather than simply a school. You'll find more people to chat to / help you / fly with, even at the quieter clubs. I learnt and still fly from Prestwick Flying Club and enjoy the chat and atmosphere - I recommend it but I'd again say it is probably a bit far for you.

It is worth thinking about where you want to take your hobby. Once you've finished your training, will you still have money to fly? Are you always going to hire an aircraft or join a group / buy your own? Do you want to fly out with others?
I'm a pretty new PPL but am in a group at Prestwick. If I wasn't in a group, I'd certainly be looking at 3-axis microlights. I hear very good reports...

Hi Riverrock,

I think I might take your advice on Dundee. I was considering their Summer School which would involve staying there for 6 weeks, but it's a lot of additional expense that might not be worth it.

I certainly want to be able to fly after gaining my PPL, and figured a co-ownership/syndicate/whatever-they're-called group would be my best option as it would allow going away for a couple of days and only paying for flying hours (from what I've read). Of course I'd need to actually find one, and I assume many will have minimum logged hours before joining.

I did see a share based at Cumbernauld (http://www.flyleadingedge.co.uk/online-shop/solo-hire-blocks/aircraft-shares/g-bmkg-share-cumbernauld-detail) which might work for hour building, but from the page on their site it sounds like you pay for every hour you have the plane rather than just flight time. Hour building seems like a good idea though, and at £900 with a guaranteed buy-back it seems like a no brainer initially.

Ownership would be incredible in terms of flexibility, but I don't have the knowledge or (I assume) funds to actually own and manage/maintain an aircraft. I've certainly seen some used-car-priced older aircraft online, but the maintenance expenses and other associated costs are unknown to me at the moment so I'm put off.

I'm self-employed (have a small software development company with my boyfriend writing iOS apps) so currently have the means, but who knows what happens in the future.

[Crash one]

As a hobby pilot an EASA LAPL would be a good bet, or NPPL. All of which can be up graded at a later date if required.As for ownership/share it depends how much flying you anticipate doing per year.
Have you considered the LAA (Light Aircraft Association)? Self maintenance under the guidance/help of a qualified engineer. A pilot coaching scheme to various standards after PPL. Numerous aircraft for sale or share, all of which you can use to build hours.
Prices range around the used car bracket.
Once you have a PPL think of the tailwheel conversion (LAA coach).
Greater flexibility/choice of aircraft, grass strip flying etc, definitely great fun and a lot cheaper than renting the Flying School spam cans.
Just a thought.

[dst87]

As a hobby pilot an EASA LAPL would be a good bet, or NPPL. All of which can be up graded at a later date if required.As for ownership/share it depends how much flying you anticipate doing per year.
Have you considered the LAA (Light Aircraft Association)? Self maintenance under the guidance/help of a qualified engineer. A pilot coaching scheme to various standards after PPL. Numerous aircraft for sale or share, all of which you can use to build hours.
Prices range around the used car bracket.
Once you have a PPL think of the tailwheel conversion (LAA coach).
Greater flexibility/choice of aircraft, grass strip flying etc, definitely great fun and a lot cheaper than renting the Flying School spam cans.
Just a thought.

Thanks for the message.

Is there a reason that NPPL/LAPL are recommended over EASA PPL? Is there a significant difference in attainment costs?

I'd like to fly as much as possible once qualified, as long as I have the money, of course! ;)

My main goals would be taking trips up north with friends/boyfriend and seeing our beautiful country from the Sky. And enjoying the wonders of flight.

I did have a trial lesson while at Uni with Edinburgh Flying Club where the instructor said I was a natural... I don't know how true that was, but he did recommend training elsewhere to save money! In any case I loved it :)

I'll look into the LAA and like the idea of learning some aircraft maintenance. I reckon once I've got the PPL and met some people I'll have a better idea of what options I have for continuing flying. Seriously thinking about Cumbernauld now from a convenience/distance perspective. Will try to give them a call and visit soon!

Really appreciate the advice - keep it coming! :)

[piperboy84]

Welcome to pprune, flying around Scotland is about as good as it gets when it comes to GA with the scenery, low traffic,wide open airspace and minimal radios, good luck on the training.

[xrayalpha]

Hi,

Much as it hurts me to say it (ouch!), if your dream is along the CPL route, then probably best to go for the EASA SEP.

But first, have a look at gapan.org and their assessment days and go and get a Class One medical at Gatwick. If you can't get that, have a rethink. (and give me a call!).

*****
I have a medical from the RAF saying I am permanently medically unfit for pilot, navigator, air crew, ground crew, RAF Regiment, ATC and photo-reconnaisance. Yet I still own an airfield, run a flying school and examine! So, as I say, and do, don't give up!

*****

If you'd like to own an aircraft -after getting a licence (there are funny rules about training on LAA/ permit-to-fly aircraft) - then don't buy a Certificate of Airworthiness aircraft. The maintenance - and fuel - bills will kill you and your enthusiasm.

There are great deals like this - albeit at Prestwick:

Light Aircraft, Eurostar 100hp, Share Price Reduced For Quick Sale, Shares & Groups, advert ID=23584 (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=23584&imid=0)

(The owner lost his Kitfox in our hangar fire and bought this share until he acquired a new Kitfox, which he now has. So a great deal.)

On the same site - run by a Strathaven pilot, as it happens - there are loads of items of interest. And we'll be glad to hangar any of the lighter (basically Rotax 912 powered ones) or more unusual ones (like the Isaacs Fury Light Aircraft, Isaacs Fury Ii , For Sale, advert ID=28401 (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=28401&imid=0)), at Strathaven.

[Crash one]

The flight time requirements for the NPPL are slightly less than a full PPL though this usually makes little difference to the actual time taken, which is usually more than the prescribed minimum, though I believe, & I may be wrong, the validation/revalidation requirements/medical are less onerous.A visit & chat with them at Strathaven would also be valuable, just to let you know what is possible after qualifying.

[Mariner9]

I did see a share based at Cumbernauld which might work for hour building, but from the page on their site it sounds like you pay for every hour you have the plane rather than just flight time.

The page you linked says hourly charges are "block to block". That's a fairly common charging methodology which means flying time counts from the moment you first start to taxi to the time you shut down at the end of that particular flight. It doesn't mean you pay for the entire time the aircraft is away from home base, as your post suggests.

For example, if you were to fly from Cumbernauld to say Fife, have lunch there, then fly back, your block time for the flight there would be say 1 hour, and the same amount for the flight back. Total charge therefore 2 hours even though you "had" the aircraft for most of the day.

[dst87]

The page you linked says hourly charges are "block to block". That's a fairly common charging methodology which means flying time counts from the moment you first start to taxi to the time you shut down at the end of that particular flight. It doesn't mean you pay for the entire time the aircraft is away from home base, as your post suggests.

For example, if you were to fly from Cumbernauld to say Fife, have lunch there, then fly back, your block time for the flight there would be say 1 hour, and the same amount for the flight back. Total charge therefore 2 hours even though you had the aircraft for most of the day.

Thank for for that clarification. All of the other groups/shares I've seen were only for flying time, so I did think it was unusual for a group to charge for the full time (otherwise why not just hire from a club). That makes a lot more sense. :)

[Crash one]

The terminology "block to block" refers to the chocks/blocks that keep the wheels still. Nothing to do with block time. Just to clarify! Sometimes referred to as "brakes off brakes on".And just to be pedantic it shouldn't take much more than 30 mins Cumbernauld to Fife, total 1hour at 85knots. Though if, like me, you go off course for a jolly on the way it could take all day!!!

[dst87]

The terminology "block to block" refers to the chocks/blocks that keep the wheels still. Nothing to do with block time. Just to clarify! Sometimes referred to as "brakes off brakes on".

Are you in agreement with Mariner9 then?

I have already replied to him, but my posts are still being moderated so back and forth conversation is difficult, and replied from me will appear after other posts have come in!

Any idea how long moderation lasts?

EDIT: Oh... but this post makes it through right away... :confused:

[Crash one]

Yes I agree with Mariner9. You could in theory fly halfway down the country for 4hrs, park/camp for a week & fly back. Total cost 8hrs. However the rest of the syndicate/Flying club may not approve. Though some hire organisations may require a minimum number of hours payment over XX time due to lack of their use?I think only the first couple of posts get checked, after that they trust you!,

[Glasgow_Flyer]

I'm a bit out of it in the UK - but I've had great experiences at Prestwick Flying Club and Leading Edge. Both very different - and Prestwick is obviously a bit of a drive - but, at 26, if you have no other commitments you'd find yourself driving down there for a 1 hr lesson and spending the rest of the day speaking with folk/learning in the club house.

Controversial, but I'd also consider doing your circuit training as part of a holiday somewhere with no landing fees (I did three or four days of circuits at Larnaca).

[dst87]

I'm a bit out of it in the UK - but I've had great experiences at Prestwick Flying Club and Leading Edge. Both very different - and Prestwick is obviously a bit of a drive - but, at 26, if you have no other commitments you'd find yourself driving down there for a 1 hr lesson and spending the rest of the day speaking with folk/learning in the club house.

Controversial, but I'd also consider doing your circuit training as part of a holiday somewhere with no landing fees (I did three or four days of circuits at Larnaca).

Thanks. Funnily enough I'd looked at doing the full intesive PPL with Fly In Spain, but figured there was no point learning to fly in beautiful, perfect conditions when I won't be flying in those conditions post-PPL very often!

I want to meet people and learn from people so it's good to hear there are places to hang out and study if you can't get in the sky for some reason (or before/after flying). I definitely want a friendly club!

Even at 26, I have a long term boyfriend, mortgage and dog! So reasonably tied, but nothing stopping me spending time at Prestwick :)

I'm going to visit Prestwick Flight Centre and and ACS/Leading Edge in Cumbernauld over the next few weeks and see how I feel about each before deciding.

[maxred]

Thanks. Funnily enough I'd looked at doing the full intesive PPL with Fly In Spain, but figured there was no point learning to fly in beautiful, perfect conditions when I won't be flying in those conditions post-PPL very often!

Small point of order, but it is not always clear blue in Spain, or elsewhere for that matter.:* Also, Similar to passing your test in a car, the completion of a PPL is only the first stage. All of your experience builds and develops after gaining the cert.

Prestwick Flight Centre is a good club. Nice and friendly, good instructors, and gives you the experience of operating from a large International airport. sharpens RT, gives you full exposure of operating within Control Zones, and overall heightens awareness of other traffic, although you will get this last part at busier, private airfields also. It is a big commit, so visit them all, take even a trial lesson at a couple of your favourites, and decide, from there.

Best of luck.

[Glasgow_Flyer]

Yup, and while at Prestwick make sure you speak to someone at the flying club too - PM me if you need any contact details as the club is not "manned" full time.

[walkindude]

Hello

I think I might be able to offer a (hopefully) helpful opinion. Your motivation will be key here, as you start what will be a fairly big commitment in terms of finance and time.

I had my first 6 hours of PPL training in, wait for it, 1984! Cash (ie the lack of it) and family then got in the way until retirement late last year when, bingo, time and money become available to scratch an itch that never, ever went away. So if your motivation is high, you'll get there in the end!

I'm about 7 miles from you, so I've looked at all the centrally located schools over a period of time. Each is staffed by dedicated, professional and friendly folk. So, my choice was based on a number of technical factors and is no reflection on the capabilities of the FTOs that I passed by when making my decision of where to spend the best part of £8k on a PPL.

You could do worse than Tayside Aviation for a number of good, solid reasons. Firstly, I'm door to door in 50 mins. Further, I know, than handy Cumbernauld or even Perth but my perception of Dundee's professionalism, the 'feel' of the clubhouse (more a work environment than golf club, if you get my drift?) and the availability of aircraft/instructors was all very positive. I've got around 15 hours logged at Dundee now with only this bloody weather getting in the road!

My instructor is relatively young and I'm relatively old! He was hardly born when I had my first lessons, but he's very good and I have never had to fly with another instructor due to him being unavailable (and I've 3 lessons booked this week alone).

Never had an issue with aircraft availability; the fleet is very large (I'm in a PA28).

Formal RT: It's an absolute must in my opinion, as you can always tone down your comms at airfields where no/limited ATC is in place. Spinning up to correct and concise RT at short notice, when it's mandatory, is going to be very difficult. Dundee airport ATC are very good, strict when they need to be, understanding of my limitations mostly!

A poster, rightly, pointed out it's a fair way to go to get cancelled by the weather etc. That has never happened to me. A combination of my instructor on the phone, ATIS and the BBC weather site has ensured the go/no go to leave home has always been 100% correct.

I could go on, but that's my tuppenceworth. I have no axe to grind other than I consider I did my homework on the schools and made a decision based on solid logic.

I'll finish by saying my experience of organisations like FTOs is fairly extensive (another discipline), and their ethos and capability always comes from the man or woman at the top. The Boss at Tayside is an enthusiast. It shows in his school.

Best of luck. Stay focused and determined and you'll have a ball. Chocks away!

Dude.

[riverrock83]

The flying club at Prestwick I'd say has more of a club atmosphere than the flight centre, and comfortable rather than high fashion (!) - but all aircraft are currently grounded at the club, as they are either in for their annual or have had prangs. Should be back online in a few weeks.

Instructors are all part-time but very experienced (BA Captain, Former RAF test pilot, Aircraft designer who is a director in a very large UK engineering company) - all instructing because they love doing it. Don't be scared by their qualifications though - they are very understanding, approachable and don't patronise.

If you think you might want to own your own aircraft at some stage, or join a group - its the right place to be, but many "graduates" have gone on to aviation careers too.

The club is currently looking to buy another aircraft and get hangers - but it will be several months anyway before all of that gets organised. There are normally people around - I counted 9 people sitting having coffee last Saturday, despite no-one getting into the air.

If you're down in Prestwick anyway - do pop in, say hello and get some of the "chat". If you would be coming down to visit the club specifically, email from the website (phone isn't normally manned) and book some time to chat things over with an instructor - even if you don't go flying.

Feel free to PM me - I'm a fairly new PPL.

[piperboy84]

Bit of thread drift , but I would disagree with the following

Formal RT: It's an absolute must in my opinion, as you can always tone down your comms at airfields where no/limited ATC is in place.

I think you have to up your game on the comms at uncontrolled fields,

Not wanting to start and argument or be a smarties pants, just a different view point.

[sherburn2LA]

if Wee Eck's policies on dealing with EASA and the CAA are as well thought out as on the currency and the EU I wouldn't bank on being able to fly anywhere.

[riverrock83]

Ach don't worry. Didn't you know that independence will solve all of your problems? An independent Scotland will mean AVGAS will be as cheap as the USA because it is Scotlands oil, we'll be able to fly anywhere in the world with minimal medical in any aircraft because everyone loves people from Scotland and despite being the EU, Scotland wont have any extra buracracy because it wont have EASA.
Vote Yes!:}

[dst87]

I know some had opinions on Open Days, but as I'm registered anyway I think I'll go to Tayside Aviation and have a look. I don't fancy travelling every day, but they do have a Summer School residential which I imagine would be immersive and so beneficial, but keen to hear views on this?

As I said I'll also visit Prestwick, Cumbernauld and Strathaven (to check out Microlights). I'm also still interested about completing a PPL abroad, but probably not. This would involve a more condensed course again, and I wonder if that's actually a good idea. Maybe having the pressure of completing in a certain time isn't good for long-term flying ability and skill (although I know this builds post-PPL)

I'm also worried about getting involved in a club locally when I haven't learned to fly locally. I hope meeting people from each of the places while exploring my options might help that though.

I'll keep you updated :)

(Oh, and on Scottish Independence: I'd be surprised if 'we' are daft enough to vote for it, although if you believe the Yes-campaigners we'll be living in a utopia by Christmas... I'll be voting NO!)

[xrayalpha]

Wee Eck's produced a Big Document and - yes - that has quite a bit about aviation.

A nice Reaganite touch - lower taxes (APD) to bring in more business.

More airforce: a need identified for maritime patrol aircraft, which the UK apparently does not see as necessary

But no mention of University Air Squadrons, GA or a few other things like "Permits to Fly" and aircraft registration.

Most of the stuff handled by the UK CAA or EASA will continue to be handled by them, perhaps under contract.

Smaller things like will Scotland get an aircraft register like IoM and Channel Islands etc are no - I suspect - crucial in the "big picture" of a country's residents deciding on independence.

ps The Scottish government's paper is 700+ pages long and is a free download.

[rossmck]

I'm studying at Prestwick Flight Centre and for the most part it's good - good instructors, the aircraft seem looked after, good R/T experience and experience working out of a 'proper' commercial airport and all that entails (controlled airspace, larger aircraft, helicopters etc) and it's not badly located for me (25 mins or so from home to the airfield)

On the negatives, it's expensive (but so is everywhere in Scotland compared to many schools / clubs down south for some odd reason) - this is alleviated slightly by block booking (usual caveat applies - use a credit card) - you'll also need to pay membership, landing fees (which are higher than at smaller airfields but surprisingly less than Cumbernauld), and the airport themselves for security check and an airside pass.

Finally, and somewhat frustratingly, they're now down to two aircraft that can be used for training - meaning availability of the planes isn't ideal - this is the biggest concern I have at the moment.

PM me if you want to chat further, I was in the same boat as you a few months ago and went through the same choices. If you don't care about the possibility of doing Night Ratings/IMC etc and are just looking for flying in daylight VFR - go to Strathaven and try their C42 - it's a lovely aircraft to train in and they're without a doubt the nicest / friendliest airfield I visited when looking into this at the start - I still keep contemplating seeing if they'd let me base a small C152 or C172 there in the future ;)

Hope this helps a little

[High-Flyer2]

PFC have more than just two for training, they only have 2x2 seater aircraft at present. They have 4seaters available as well.


HF:cool:

[cockney steve]

Hello Duncan,
First, let me say, I'm not a pilot. However, I have a keen interest in "the scene" and see you are quite low on the learning-curve. You've come toa good place to get a variety of opinions.

Firstly, choice of Aircraft.

By farthe cheapest to own and operate,is the Flexwing Microlight....can be folded down, put on a trailer and parked in your own garage....time to unload and rig, about an hour.
If you are mechanically-inclined, you are permitted to do your own maintenance...at the extreme, the very lightweight single-seaters do not even need annual inspections.....if you're daft enough to want a Darwin Award....the authorities allow youthe choice :}

Also in the Microlight category, there are two-seat, perfectly conventional "proper" aircraft,which, by nature of stall-speed, wing-loading and weight, , slip below the barrier.....some of these designs are Composite (smooth,curvy, shiny "fibreglass") some are fabric-covered "skeletons"with lightweight rigid floor-panels etc.
Some have a folding- wing design and the same advantages as flexwings, though youmay need to extend the back of the garage, a tad!
DIY maintenance, BMAA Administer.(again, you can pay someone to do it for you, but there are few restrictions.
Like Gliders,you can get trailers that are enclosed....fold the wings, slide her into the "wheeled Crysalis" and padlock the door.

Here, perhaps I should mention Motor Gliders....apart from needing a lot of aerodrome space for takeoff/ landing, they're very cheap to run and maintain.

On to Permit Aircraft...Predominantly homebuilts, but als covers all the light aircraft "orphaned" by the factory and type-certificate-holder withdrawing support. Usually 'cos they went bust!
Permits are administered by LAA -again, you are encouraged to fettle your own, but , however it's done, LAA have oversight...upshot is, you don't need a qualified Aircraft Mechanic or Maintenance-organisation to do your work....a massive cost-saving. AFAIK, It's perfectly legal to learn on YOUR OWN Permit aircraft, so, you just pay the instructor and the Training-organisation, under who's umbrella youlearn.

Lastly, you have the Certificated (CAA, CofA) aircraft.....the country's training fleet is predominantly"spam-cans" -Cessnas and Pipers....most are older than you and have withstood more use and abuse than both of us! Safe, robust and forgiving, but sophisticated, they ain't. Maintenance is eye-wateringly expensive. All parts have to be approved, all but the very simplest servicing and maintenance-tasks have to be done, signed-for and certified by approved parties.

(IMHO this doesn't make them any safer at all and statistics tend to support this view)

Certificated aircraft can be hired out , used for commercial work, flown in the UK at night. flown in Instrument Meteorological Conditions...which permit aircraft are not allowed....BUT THE COSTS ARE MORE THAN DOUBLE THE PERMIT EQUIVALENT...
In the Certificated category,you'll also find what appear to be MICROLIGHTS...but the engine's bigger, the wing smaller...so,they're faster and heavier,have a bigger payload (you a pie-scoffer?) and cost a massive amount more to run and maintain.

All Certificate aircraft have mandated inspections and maintenance regimes...if you're bored, look up cessna SID'S" Throwing away unused seatbelts and installing fabulously expensive new ones, simply because an arbritarily imposed calendar life has been reached, is not my idea of responsible, ecologically sound or sensible legislation.

Best "bang for the buck?" a Microlight licence willbe the cheapest, quickest way to the freedomof the skies,Unfortunately, AFAIK, you can't use Microlight-time for PPL/CPL hours-building. The steps to convert to a full PPL should be relatively painless and easy.

A Permit aircraft would be quite a big step, but you could wind up with your own aircraft and a PPL for very little more than the cost of conventional Flying-School lessons...then you have a cheap way to build hours!

Splash ~8- 10 thousand and you'll learn at a school, on their plane and they will do all the admin. easy, hassle-free, you get what you pay for.
Me, I'd like a taildragger on Permit it won't happen....but a microlight just might....some 3-axis jobbies do looka bit Heath Robinson(high wing with the engine poked forward on a pole :hmm: but cheap as chips to buy and run and there's room for 2!



Well, that's plenty to think about...no doubt someone will be along to correct all my errors and omissions!

[Magpie32]

Hi Duncan

Did you ever decide on a flying school and start your PPL?

Martin