Shifts and rosters

[hollywoodman]

Hi

Looking at differences in shift patterns at various airports within the Uk

Can anyone please give me details for

Gatwick
Heathrow
East Midlands
Luton
Birmingham

Qualified in both tower and approach, ready for a new challenge

Any help would be appreciated

[NQWhy]

Normally 6 on 4 off. 2 earlies, 2 lates, 2 nights/days, 4 off (or sleep day plus 3)

[Sonnendec]

Wow! I wish i worked there...

[hollywoodman]

Thanks.

Is it the same for all units?

I assume the times for say Gatwick are early shift is 5.30-1400, afternoon 1400 - 2130 and nights are 2130-0530?

trying to work out how it effects my daily routine with the family!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

With leave, etc, it works out around 180 days work each year. 6 days leave equals 14 days at home. AND.. you get paid too!

[Glamdring]

Aye, it's not a bad life really eh?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Colleague of mine at Heathrow moved to a new house. Some while later a neighbour visited his wife and said they were sorry that her husband appeared to be out of work and they'd had a whip-round for him!!

[Lssar]

With leave, etc, it works out around 180 days work each year. 6 days leave equals 14 days at home. AND.. you get paid too!

@ HEATHROW DIRECTOR: do those 180 days include leave days or not?

In Spain, we work in 8-day cycles: 2 earlies, 2 lates, 1 nights/days, 3 off (or sleep day plus 2). If you divide 365 days/8 = 45.6 working cycles. Our yearly holidays are 6 cycles + 1 extra cycle (this one has to be authorised by the management, if it isn´t, you get paid), so we really work 38.6 cycles, that is 38.6x5 = 192.5 effective work days a year.

In your case, you work 10-day cycles, so 365/10 = 36.5 cycles = 219 working days. So if as you say, you work 180 days, that leaves 39 paid days off, that is 6.5 cycles of holidays.

Is this correct?

[anotherthing]

lssar

33 days leave plus 8 bank holidays (all paid).

However the company takes 3 days extra duty back (for emergency training etc) to even out the fact we work less than normal hours per week on average.

So in total 181 days attendance/

NB this is for units with 24 hour operation as day 7 is counted as a sleep day.

NATS units that are not 24 hours work 6 on 3 off with 33 days leave and 8 bank holidays. Not sure if they have extra duty days or if so, how many.

[Defruiter]

And you only get the 33 days after 10 years service. For new starters, it's 28 days. After 8 years, you go to 30. After 10 years, you get the 33.

[Angels-One-Five]

Thanks.

Is it the same for all units?

I assume the times for say Gatwick are early shift is 5.30-1400, afternoon 1400 - 2130 and nights are 2130-0530?

trying to work out how it effects my daily routine with the family!

Each unit is different. I'm not familiar with KK, but i think your assumption is wrong.

At one london airport the shifts are:

Morning 07:00-13:30 (though there are early start variations from 06:00)
Afternoon 13:30-22:00 (again there are various shifts allocated each month by roster - late start/finish for example 15:00-23.30)
Night 22:00-07:00

The individual work practise agreements at each unit may have a collection of other shifts such as day shifts to maximise flexibility.

[UpperATC]

@LookingForAJob

If you've got a licence you can apply for a job there.

You mean, as a trainee - licence not needed...

[Lssar]

Okay, that is clear now, thanks!

Anyway, I forgot to mention that training is not included in those work days: when we have a training session, it is usually from 0830 till 1400, and they put it in your roster the day before a cycle begins: 2 earlies, 2 lates, 1 night/day, 2 off (or sleep day plus 1), training ... So, de facto, this cycle is a 5 on 2 on 1, and the next is a 6 on 3.

Other 6 on 2 are scheduled in heavy traffic seasons like Summer or Passion Week, or any time the managers decide it is necessary. All these extra working days add nothing to your salary, and were not included in my former calculations.

[LEGAL TENDER]

Gatwick
Heathrow
East Midlands
Luton
Birmingham

Of the above, I would imagine you can only apply to East Mids, which is a non Nats unit, and BHX, which is soon to become a non Nats unit.
For the other ones I am not aware you can actually directly applyto. Nats recruitment is not unit specific, although in the past the company have done so causing the anger of employees and unions that must have been so furious to even declare themselves "peed off", all to be then swept under the carpet of the Working Together utopia.

However don't quote me on it - it wouldn't be the first time that an external candidate gets preferential treatment over controllers that have served years within Nats.

[RiskyFowler]

Gatwick, Heathrow, Stansted and Luton work basically the same.
cycles of 10 days with 2 mornings (7am til 2pm), 2 afternoons (2pm until 10pm) and 2 nights or spins (mornings or afternoons). At night you won't work more than 5 hours in total, the rest will be sleeping time.
Some days you will do early morning start, mainly hearthrow, which is between 6am and 6.30 am. On those days you are sent home earlier (between 10am and afternoon).
As HD says it is 180 days of proper work at the end of the year. 18 days a month with 28 days of leave + 8 days of bank holidays, which means you work 10 months.
On heathrow we do between 30 minutes and 90 minutes of controlling on mornings and afternoons, followed by a 30 min brake and so on...

[YouSaidBolt]

I thought that people who came from overseas even with a euro licence had to learn the uk way is that not true then???

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Having trained controllers abroad I sincerely hope that the CAA would have the final say on whether to employ someone from overseas and to decide whether they should sit UK exams, etc. I know that some overseas governments who sponsor trainees in this country accept statements that the person has "undergone a course of training" for the issue of a licence. We have a very precious ATC system in the UK; let's keep it that way.

[UpperATC]

@LookingForAJob

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you regarding the EU issued licence. I also agree about the possibility of applying to some of the UK ATC Units.

However here we are talking about NATS units mostly. And as @YouSaidBolt mentioned, no vacancies for experienced controllers. I think going through the whole process will be the way.
But, I may be mistaken...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK VL. Thanks for that. I'm retired and I bet I've been wrong many more times than you!

[hollywoodman]

Thanks very much for the accurate information.

We tried contacting NATS via the careers section of the website to enquire about vacancies still awaiting a reply regarding the listed airports... apparently you do agree to be flexible with locations if successful in your application.

Will try and find out if East Midlands and Birmingham have vacancies, Birmingham is expanding and with the change everyone starts fresh. Any ideas who is taking over? Inhouse or Serco?

Once again thanks

[055166k]

Western Radar [UK] 3 mornings [0615] 0630-1330, 3 afternoons 1330-2100, 3 days off. Mandatory excess hours working which accrues TOIL.

[jpwelton]

How is it we recognise a. n. european state's license and give out a UK one, but won't do the same for someone leaving the RAF......?

[jpwelton]

I was aiming more rhetorical than actual enquiry!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I don't know what things are like now but when I was operational, RAF ATC was totally different to civvy. I had experience of this at home and abroad. They had different priorities and it would not have been possible for a military controller to move straight to civvy ATC without training.

[reportyourlevel]

There were some ex-RAF guys on my radar course. If you need a reason why they can't just change their licences over then I suggest you go and watch them doing the courses.

[NQWhy]

Well said reportyourlevel!

[055166k]

I agree with you....absolutely. Your comments are accurate, and you are not alone....and I speak from many years OJT. Difficult to overcome the inertia of mil phraseology and technique....people who are "always right" need careful handling and understanding to assist transition to the ATC family rather than an "us and them" rank structure.

[jpwelton]

I accept both the technical answer and (some of!) the practical ones - I have trained and worked alongside current and ex-service ATCOs. My point, I guess, is should we consider it right and proper that someone with experience of, for example, operating at multiple airfields with large variations in traffic types and mixes should have to start 'from scratch' to get a job once they leave Her Majesty's service? Should we not advocate at the very least some sort of fast track/streamlined course?

[anotherthing]

JP

on tower/approach possibly... particularly at places like bournemouth or cardiff which are a little more like mil airfields with a mix of traffic and not all non stop commercial jets. Heathrow/Gatwick different but the skills are a bit more transferable.

Area is completely different.

Fast track courses have been tried before and in the main did not work. Some of it was down to attitude... old and bold military controllers who thought they knew best and couldn't shut up and learn

Old and bold instructors who sometimes resented mil controllers joining.

Speaking as a someone on your watch who is ex mil and did tower/app and area in the mil before joining NATS. The area course was hard (for me) and I was supposedly a very good mil controller. I had to unlearn a lot of discrepancies to work the way the college needed me to.

Of course TC controlling is more akin to mil than pure area, so that helped on OJT which was, fortunately, much easier for me.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Wise words Vulcan Lover...

[2 sheds]

If the situation were reversed, I could not visualise the military welcoming a civil controller with open arms and a rubber stamp!

2 s

[llondel]

Don't you need to pass a politeness test to be qualified as a civil ATCO? :E

[anotherthing]

Vulcan Lover and HD;

You are correct, but I'm sure that if it was the other way round then plenty experienced civvy ATCO's would have the same attitude.

Part of the make up of an ATCO I think. You need to be a bit self assured to do the job well, and some people just can't reign themselves in and realise that the past experience is a bonus but nothing to harp on about. Just keep your head down, listen and you will learn something new, and your previous experience will shine through when it comes to real controlling and thinking on your feet.

As LookingForaJob says, the skills of a civvy ATCO do not mean they could just walk into a mil job. The nature of the flying etc means different set of problems and priorities. I seem to remember something in JSP 318 about controlling in the mil and one of the quotes was about the high likelihood of emergencies due to the way the aircraft are operated.

Both sets of controllers have their strong pints, but although ATC is ultimately about keeping aircraft apart, the job differs. I think that a good, level headed ex mil ATCO can enhance the course for fellow coursemates.

IMHO that's what used to be so good about NATS courses - you seemed to get a real mix of people on course a few years ago - and all their experiences, either as controllers or just in life, made the whole course more rounded

[10W]

Both sets of controllers have their strong pints,

Although with the Transport Act, and random Drugs & Alcohol testing, we can't do that on duty any more ;)