Norwegian A320neo order

[manflexsrsrwy]

Hi Guys,

It is an old one, the same stories are floating around on the internet, the Norwegian home website, says the order is firm and expected in 2015,

Anyone from the company itself, care to share with us lowly minions, if these rumours are infact true, or are the orders to go onto other operators, and not be taken on by them ??

I understand this will be a lifeline, for lots of Airbus guys & gals out there, looking to move on, for whatever reason, from the likes of easyJet, Wizz, Aegean & any other charlatan operators out there:ugh:, but remain in Europe.

I personally cannot see the point of operating two different fleet types, i.e. Boeing & A airbus as they pith presumably will be using the CFM56 so …..

What do you guys think ?????:ok:

[MCDU2]

Norwegian a lifeline? Is this not the outfit looking for Thai contracts?

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Other than Norwegians looking to return home, absolutely no one with a permanent job and an ounce of common sense will be leaving easyJet to join Norwegian. Incidentally, to include Wizz and Aegean in the same league as easyJet or to call them 'charlatan operators' shows a staggering misunderstanding of who fits where in the pecking order of European airlines.

[Superpilot]

Norwegian firms up A320neo order - 6/8/2012 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/norwegian-firms-up-a320neo-order-372783/)
Press Releases (http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20120709-1800/2012/All%20Categories)

A Memorandum of Understanding is pretty close to proving an airlines intention to purchase aircraft.

[LNIDA]

What us lowly minions have been told and its the same in the public domain is that the order for both the Neo & Max (100 of each) are firm orders, the reason for ordering both are various including the deal from both Airbus & Boeing was such a good deal they order both. Also there is a significant delay before the Max is available in late 2017 and the Neo in next year.

It was also stated that by taking both Norwegian push back the delivery date to other operators bearing mind that the Neo should have a operating cost advantage over the current NG of 15% and the max over the NG of 15 -17%, but more importantly is the increased range both offer, Norwegian already operate some of the longest sectors operated by any NG operator anywhere in the world, DBX to OSL/ARN & TOS to TFS/LPA but have to restrict the payload to around 155-160.

Norwegian have also stated that they plan to operate other ultra long sectors and LPA to South America & the Caribbean have been mentioned amongst others, LGW east coast? same space as a 757, but less people, but much much lower operating cost per seat.

If Norwegian decide not to use them, then I'm sure Norwegian leasing will appear and no shortage of people wanting them i guess?

More interestingly is where will they be based and who will fly them, but as you say no shortage of people wanting to escape the desert and further East, if they don't take them, then their growth will stall when the current NG deliveries are completed, its for other to judge whether that will be a good or bad thing:confused:

re pecking order

Do you mean from a pilots point of view or size? if its the later the NAS are number 3 behind easyJet i believe

Thai contracts are for the 787 fleet

No shortage of applicants for the 738 fleet a course a week running for the 1st 3 months of this year and yes many ex FR guys

[llagonne66]

Norwegian firms up order for 100 Airbus A320neo*| Airbus News & Events (http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-events-single/detail/norwegian-firms-up-order-for-100-airbus-a320neo/)

[captplaystation]

There was a little rumour going around they would be in LGW & BCN , mainly it was suggested,due to the lack of flts to nasty places Ooop Norff that somehow they think the Bus is less suited to than the Boeing . . . . . but well, you know rumours, then again, it is called professional pilots rumours & news.

[SR71]

Other than Norwegians looking to return home, absolutely no one with a permanent job and an ounce of common sense will be leaving easyJet to join Norwegian. Incidentally, to include Wizz and Aegean in the same league as easyJet or to call them 'charlatan operators' shows a staggering misunderstanding of who fits where in the pecking order of European airlines.

When permanent positions and DEC's are available onto the Airbus at LGW, that'll be interesting to watch...

[Superpilot]

Yes, VERY interesting. I love a bit of dynamic :ok:

[Three Lions]

Other than Norwegians looking to return home, absolutely no one with a permanent job and an ounce of common sense will be leaving easyJet to join Norwegian. Incidentally, to include Wizz and Aegean in the same league as easyJet or to call them 'charlatan operators' shows a staggering misunderstanding of who fits where in the pecking order of European airlines.


Ezy are definitely in the pecking order and not the worst out there, however they are definitely more "Wizz and Aegean" than "Norwegian"

Depends which pecking order you are referring to if its aircraft numbers you are correct. Not sure about any other criteria that could be applied though. Possibly not much in it in many other comparisons.

[manflexsrsrwy]

:ok:Alexander de meerkat….

Whilst I do not mean to offend….easyJet, I understand is a stable company and a chosen career path for many, but I also understand that the infighting, the crew food issue, the questionable morals & implementation of the fatigue system, the very long days…very little recovery , the "some people progress, whilst others do not"…within easyJet has left people looking for a fresh ride.

As someone posted recently, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king…unfortunately it is easyJet right now…but hopefully Norwegian will change that and come shopping for drivers…which can only be good for the rest of us…ALL of us….

Scratch beneath the orange veneer & it is just as Blue…possibly not as irish but just as blue

so…what is so good about easy ? and what is this perceived pecking order ?

[Reader not a writer]

Manflexsrsrwy

Interesting points indeed. I think if Ts & Cs are better then people will move. That is how it works.

In easyJet there is a perception (instigated from management) that the Vikings (NOR) are our biggest threat in the medium term ie 3-5 years.

All of the above is just evolution I suppose. Jobs/opportunities will attract the many nomads that this career path has historically done so in the past and in the future.

[Superpilot]

They'll have to do something about their name and livery though. It can't be the best choice for marketing an airline with euro wide plans, surely?

[A and C]

I am unsure about the issues being debated above as there are a lot of good points being made, the only thing that seems set in concrete is total inability of Alexander De Meerkat to see past the Orange propoganda.

Yes my friend there are other airlines and from a pilot perspective at least one is better run that EZY............simples !

[MCDU2]

If you feel you can reconcile away the Thai contracts by saying its on a different fleet then your need a reality check.

The Thai contracts could potentially have massive impacts on the entire industry and flying an A320NEO for another group company won't help you one bit.

[Facelookbovvered]

Don't call me surely

You make a very interesting point about name and livery

The Red Nose livery together with famous faces (to some??) on the tail are very distinctive as to the name, well if they were to change it they are leaving it late in the day and must have invested a huge amount of money, so i think they'll stay with it.

There is a counter argument to change in that the name is seen to represent Scandinavian standards, no mater that it might be a Spanish crew, english flight deck or just about any other European national on board....or Thai I gather..

[antonov09]

I know which company I would rather fly with as a passenger. It isn't Easyjet and it certainly isn't Ryanair.

It most certainly is Norwegian.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

manfkexsrsrwy - whilst accepting that everyone is entitled to a view, I do not accept that the characterisation of life at easyJet as 'infighting, the crew food issue, the questionable morals & implementation of the fatigue system, the very long days…very little recovery , the some people progress, whilst others do not' etc' as being in any way reliable. With the possible exception of the crew food, which is truly dreadful, the rest is simply not correct. I am not sure which infighting you are referring to or indeed which questionable morals you are considering, but I would not accept that as reflecting reality in any way. I can buy into the long days as being difficult, but the days are not long when compared to people who work in the City, for example. I would contend that working for any airline involves long days, and that is just the nature of the beast.

A and C - I would also not accept that I back all things orange, but I do think that easyJet is a very good airline to work for. I do not think that makes me 'unable to see beyond the orange propaganda'. For example, in the recent debacle over recruitment, when nearly 40 pilots were offered jobs and then had those offers rescinded I was happy to say that it was a disgrace - which indeed it was. Equally when things are good or when there is utter rubbish being spoken about easyJet by people who know little or nothing about it I am happy to say they are wrong. My point in this thread is that easyJet is better than the likes of Wizz Air, Aegean and Norwegian, whilst accepting that some people, for geographical reasons mainly, may choose to work elsewhere. Possible the best way to judge this issue is who leaves which airline to go where. Virtually no pilot has left easyJet to join Aegean or Wizz Air, from which it would be reasonable to assume that in the pecking order of life they are down the batting order of airlines to work for. There are pilots who have left Monarch to join us and those that have left us to join them. Those that have joined Monarch seem to like it, so I would infer from those statistics that both are airlines roughly on the same rung of the ladder to work for. Many people have left easyJet to join national carriers like BA, and virtually none have come the other way (other than those who were kicked out previously at 55). I would conclude from those statistics that easyJet is a good employer but not as good as the likes of BA. That is a realistic view and not propaganda. I have had many conversations on the flight deck down the years with young pilots considering leaving easyJet for other jobs. I have always had a dispassionate view and sought to advise them as I would my own kids. In that time I have never met a single one who is contemplating leaving us to go to Norwegian, Wizz Air or Aegean - I would view any move along those lines as a backwards step unless there was an overwhelming personal reason to go there (marriage, home country and so on). If someone wants to go to BA and they are young enough to get the benefit of that choice then I wish them well. I could not argue with their choice as overall BA have more to offer than easyJet does in terms of variety and aircraft type. My point is that in terms of desirable employer, easyJet fits into the world's airline list below national carriers but above most other companies. That seems to me a balanced view and not one based on 'orange propaganda' - I will leave it for others to judge.

[carbheatout]

Remind me the subject of this thread again?

[Artie Fufkin]

Now come on Alex,I have never met a single one who is contemplating leaving us to go to Norwegian

By way of explanation; (my bold)

(A) APPLICATION EXPERIENCED FIRST OFFICERS

Minimum requirements for experienced first officers:

Valid JAR-FCL Commercial Pilot License or higher with valid instrument rating, IR(A) ME
Valid typerating B737 300-900
Minimum 500 hrs on B737 300-900, and 150hrs within the last year
Extensive experience on similar types or class may be considered
Minimum 1500 hrs total time on aeroplanes and 100 hrs Pilot in Command ,PIC
Valid JAR-FCL 3, medical class 1
Valid frozen ATPL theory
English, written and spoken, (Language proficiency ‘’ICAO’’ level 4 or higher)
No criminal record


(B) APPLICATION FIRST OFFICERS <1500 hrs NON TYPERATED OR TYPERATED <500 hrs ON TYPE

Minimum requirements for first officers

Maximum age 40 years
Accept to be typerated at own expence
Accept to be simchecked at own expence if holding a rating
Valid JAR-FCL CPL(A) with valid instrument rating, IR(A) ME
Valid JAR-FCL3, medical class 1
Minimum 100 hrs Pilot in Command PIC
Valid frozen ATPL theory
English, written and spoken, (Language proficiency ‘’ICAO’’ level 4 or higher)
Preferably educated from an FTO offering integrated course or other ‘’single education site’’ offering ’’JET Orientation’’ and/or ‘’Multi Crew Co operation Course MCC’’ on relevant type
No criminal record



Let's see what happens when Norwegian put Airbus into Gatwick and tells all the Boeing drivers based there to go and be rebased to Spain.

[A and C]

While having little insight into the T&C at Whizz or Aegean one can guess that the deal it likely to be less favorable than EZY and having the same equipment your comparison is valid, Norwegian is another matter, very few of the EZY pilots are likely to have flown the B737 in the last few years and so jumping ship into a company that by circumstances of the huge training burden of a rapid expansion is unlikely.

The fact of the matter is that when it is time for Norwegian to introduce the A320 I have no doubts that Norwegian will have the the deal in place to attract pilots from other airlines and only then can we make a valid comparison between the T&C's at Norwegian and EZY when pilots vote with their feet ( or don't).

The airline market is changing, EZY were the quality end of the LoCo market with RYR firmly holding the rock bottom of the market, things are changing with RYR realizing that they need to treat the customers better to attract the people who are willing to spend a little more, the problem for EZY is that RYR are aiming to squeez the bottom end of the EZY customer base and Norwegian are squeezing the top end with a superior product at a comparable price.........interesting times ahead !

[WHYEYEMAN]

I think the issue people have with Norwegian is one of confidence. By which I mean that in the sphere of short haul, they were late to the party. Easy have been snaffling the best slots at prime airports for a lot longer than Norwegian and will defend their position robustly. Meanwhile on long haul, they are experimenting with a brand new (somewhat problematic) aircraft type on new routes, many of which have been tried before and failed. Likewise, long haul carriers will be defending their position, especially across the Atlantic.

Perhaps now is their time and it will be a roaring success. Perhaps it will tick over well enough to keep it viable long term. Perhaps it will end in a nasty mess next year. I think this is why nobody will leave a successful, established airline for Norwegian, no matter what the contract on offer. In short, it is an unproven business model at the present time.

Let's see what happens when Norwegian put Airbus into Gatwick and tells all the Boeing drivers based there to go and be rebased to Spain.

This is exactly why nobody who wants to be based in London would join Norwegian. If they decided it wasn't worth competing with easy at LGW then they would be the next bunch of people to be forcibly relocated onto whatever contract was on offer at the time. Just like Ryanair.

[captplaystation]

Judging by the success (thus far) of the NAS LGW base, and the long-haul plans etc, I think they are there for the long term.

Which type is utilised at the base when/if NAS actually take delivery of the NEOS for the use of "Norwegian Air Shuttle" ( as opposed to some other yet to be created carrier, or indeed a new wholly owned leasing company ) shouldn't result in peeps being turfed out, as the new airframes will possibly come with the usual "freebie" type ratings routinely offered by manufacturers.

Of greater concern is exactly what the "permanent" contract will look like ( & with
whom, as rumours suggest the one to be offered in HEL will still be through an agency ) and how generous it will be in comparison to the current "contract" one.

Feeling amongst the troops is that HEL & LGW will be competitive, but Spanish based pilots should brace themselves for a Vuelingisation of T's& C's. With the planned expansion an attempt to offer conditions like that will be a little brave, but when you look at the woeful Long Haul contract, anything is possible both good & bad.

From March, we will have the 1st indication once we see the HEL offer. We are all watching with great interest.

[FLEXPWR]

In short, it is an unproven business model at the present time.

That's what was said of SouthWest... How do you prove a business model? You have to start somewhere. :rolleyes:

I like to see bold moves in the industry, it's been lacking for a while now. I hope they succeed, it'll bring a bowl of fresh air to the rather bleak pilot employment in Europe right now.

[Three Lions]

Norwegian dont seem to be playing the ezy/ryr game of flooding the market with cadets either

Ezy arent in the same ball park as Norwegian on most fronts Integrity of the future of the industry is the big one.

Piling cadets in with no regard to the future ... thats hardly the sign of a high quality operator

[Iver]

But how can Norwegian plan to grow its LGW business with so few slots or capacity for growth????? Will Norwegian likely open more UK bases?

[737 Jockey]

LPL is the latest base rumour... I thought MAN would've been better myself.

Apparently, RYR are wet leasing for the summer schedule as they've lost so many Pilots to NAS. Anyone care to confirm/refute this?

[WHYEYEMAN]

Dick,

Your entire post effectively states that Norweigan's costs are higher than other airline's. The wifi must be a big draw but cannot come cheap and most locos run a single fleet for a very good reason. You also say that the cabin crew aren't particularly fussed about selling on-board whereas other airlines consider this to be an important revenue stream.

It seems like a lovely airline with an excellent service and terribly smart looking pilots ;) (I'll ignore that somewhat ridiculous comment). Whether that's enough to compete with the other locos who have been at this game for a little longer and have their costs under tight control in this game of wafer thin margins, remains to be seen. Hence the uncertainly.

[A and C]

I think you are missing the point with the in flight sales revinue stream

The Scandinavians don't like high pressure sales techniques, infact it is the worst way to sell to the type of Scandinavian who has the most to spend ! ( it is also the worst way to sell to me !)

Norwegian has gone down the road of offering high class refreshments delivered promptly to the passengers and that is what the passengers seem to like, rather than what they see as the bullying tactics of RYR ( and to a lesser extent EZY) that just makes them shut their wallets.

It is all about knowing what the your passengers want from a flight over and above the safe and on time performance.

[Three Lions]

Airline pilots walking round in anoraks...cabin crew looking less than imaculate.... may seem off topic to some but it says it all really about the values and gives insight into the stature of some airlines and how they are comfortable portraying their employees, and how some airlines obviously see the career of pilot and cabin crew in the professional ladder in europe.

The fact its seen as unimportant in some quarters of the crews gives an insight to the level of indoctrination and conditioning that has taken place. Especially in UK and Irl with the two big locos

Getting back on topic, hopefully Norwegian continue on their current plan and bring the airbuses in and sooner rather than later. And manage to put both ryr and ezy on the back foot. This can only be good for the european industry as a whole. Its clear to see ryr are taking notice of the threat

there is a place for a loco in europe there obviously is and hopefully Norwegian lead the way forward in europe take centre stage and have such a presence they can somehow stall the race to the bottom led by the blue and orange army and play an imortant part in lifting the profession and stature back where it should be. Not where the accountant cynically driven business plans are looking to drive it to.

My hope is that NAS can show it isnt impossible to operate safely with a quality service and to make profits without having to dumb it all down.

From where im looking NAS are the breath of fresh air it all needs. For sure MOL has changed tack regarding customer relations because he can obviously see what is coming. For all his faults he isnt lacking intelligence. Im sure ezy are making plans to survive the NAS expansion too. If they arent then they should be

I too watch with interest. Over the last two years it has been very noticeable how there has been an increasing number of portraits looking down from the fins of 73s all over europe. For me it has been warming to see.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

As any of you based in Gatwick may know, the Norwegian crewroom is just opposite easyJet's. I would have to agree that easyJet's uniforms are rubbish compared to Norwegian's. The NAS crews look really well turned out in smart, attractive uniforms and it is absolutely true that easyJet pilots are roaming around in plastic jackets - I wore one only yesterday myself! And yes, Norwegian have posh leather seats and wi-fi (albeit one that does not work very well). The problem they are facing is that their costs are out of control. For example, that little white bump on their 737 fuselage with all the wi-fi gubbins in it would cost around 1% in a fuel penalty - that is a catastrophic loss for any airline given the margins. We have looked at the wi-fi issue and the basic problem we face is that wi-fi technology around Europe is not advanced enough to provide a credible in-flight service, as NAS are experiencing. What we will not do is take on naff technology that puts an intolerable burden on our fuel costs. NAS may indeed be having a successful long haul entry from Gatwick, but easyJet does not care about that. The bottom line is that NAS are haemorrhaging money at a rate that is not sustainable when they have to take on established players like easyJet and Ryanair. They are absolutely cut throat with their employees and they are going to have enormous difficulty attracting the necessary experienced pilots to run their Airbus operation. By that I am not talking about 200 hour wonder-kids desperate to spend more of their parents' money on an Airbus rating and line training. I am talking about TREs and the like who currently have good jobs in airlines such as easyJet, Thomas Cook, Monarch etc. Why on earth would they leave a comfy existence and go to a company who will pay them less money, offer less security and potentially move them at a moment's base to some Viking land they do not want to live in? They would have to offer a massive financial inducement to go, and I do not see that happening. Again, even if they did, the only people who would risk it are people with less than 5 years to go and who could take the short term gain against the long term uncertainty. They are a high risk company and anyone leaving the likes of easyJet to join them would be making a huge step into the unknown. The bottom line is that they are making a massive expansion at a time when all the other big players are being more cautious. Time will tell who is right, but I do not see it ending well.

[LNIDA]

Wifi technology

You are correct there is a fuel penalty for the wifi hump, as for naff technology, well its not perfect, but for e-mail, Facebook which according to the providers data logging thats what most use it for its just fine, yes you can get outages due I'm told tail blanking and some geo-location that are prohibited, but most of the time it works OK and it is free!!! more importantly customers love it.

I have used both FaceTime and Skype (whilst positioning) and it was acceptable and like most things the tech is getting better all the time, at the moment its one of Norwegian's USP

I have no doubt that EZY management are feeding the haemorrhaging money line, just has NAS management are telling us LGW is exceeding all expectations, one thing is for sure it's given easyJet a wake up call at LGW judging by easyJets revamping in LGW and Monarch haven't a clue whats hit them on the Canary Isle routes out of LGW

On costs CAPA quotes easyJet & Norwegian as neck and neck as indeed does Norwegians investor relations info (like easyJet it a Publicly quoted company)

Long haul for now is not on easyJets radar, but for Norwegian its an integral part of the game plan with inbound traffic feeding L/H out of LGW, remember that unlike other LoCo's you can already book through tickets to destinations not already served by direct flights hub-ing through OSL/CPH/ARN/LGW

easyJets product is fine, Ryanair does what it says on the tin and is probably a bigger threat to easyJet as it revamps its product, Monarch is very mixed and OTP is woeful, Thomson is excellent and Jet2 is good if your on a 738, but i have yet to get off any of the above and think well that was better than Norwegian, Thomson is closest, so its not just about uniforms and yes costs are king, time will tell.

[Three Lions]

ADM my credit to you, your passion for your current employer is admirable. And that is said with absolute genuine sentiment from one professional to another.

I agree time will tell. However my point is that the whole thing needs a shake up it needs something new something different a role it looks like NAS are playing with integrity humility and intelligence.

The whole thing needs the baton taking off MOL as he has been leading the way for long enough now, and whether you like to agree or mot ezy have been operating within his slipstream albiet without his rough edges.

The general direction hasnt been good for the crews either side of the flightdeck doors. Even considering the financial state these accountancy experts and bankers have managed to get just about the whole of Europe into. It is clear to see the general direction has been downwards for the crews which also has an obvious effect knock on effect on other higher quality operators

The 200 hour wonder kids you refer to, well both ezy and ryr have been pushing these in extraordinarily large numbers into the european market now for long enough, leaving experienced guys out on a limb when their own operators have been pushed out of business by the very expansions of ryr and ezy.

I understand your point about tre's exactly and I do agree with your angle on that one. However the 200 hour wonder kids you refer to are, as far as I can see, are recruited by your company in the similar sort of volume as ryr.

Time will tell, hopefully NAS do utilise new hire cadets as part of their expansion plan but dont blatantly abuse this stream of new pilots. I think its fair to say most people I personally speak to during my work, do not appreciate the effect ryr's aggressive modus operandi is having on the wider industry. Unfortunately ezy have done precious little to address this slide, merely sat in ryr's slipstream trying to keep business good by offering something slightly higher quality.

Not personal from me to any individual nor even an operator id hate to think of NAS expansion costing ezy or ryr or anybody else to lose their job. I am personally willing NAS and I not employed by them, I just feel they maybe a last chance of some humility returning and also a distancing from this dumbing down that the locos seem intent on.

Lots of airbuses and boeings in europe hitting ryr and ezy head on cannot be a bad thing.

[FLEXPWR]

Three Lions :D :D :D

That is the way I understand (or hope!) this operator plans the next step. Indeed as previously mentioned, it's got to pour crap load of money to get there, and the margins may be incredibly thin for a long time. But bringing decent employment conditions and respect (maybe that's the word that was lost long time ago to some locos..), they might attract a crowd who actually wants to make the move for long term prospects.

A even-footed company-employee environment? Does this still exist?

[A and C]

Please can you tell me were you find the information about NAS haemorrhaging money as you say ?

A bit of trawling the Internet seems to show all the graphs going on the correct direction, perhaps you would care to illuminate us as to the basis for your opinion ?

[R T Jones]

Having read a few articles that interviews the Norwegian CEO I can't help feel he's slightly MOLesk in his approach to things. He appears fairly ruthless, knows what he wants and how to get it. For this reason, as an ezy fo, I certainly think both Norwegian and Vueling are big threats to our profitability in the next few years.
Even if they do fall by the way side, which I'm not convinced they will, certainly not Vueling with IAG's backing, they will provide competition and reduce margins. I think they may have bitten off more then they can chew with the long haul, at least to start with. Such high utilisation rates of a brand new aircraft were bound to run into trouble. Lots of very delayed flights and upset passengers isn't great for retaining customers.
Flexicrew aside, once on a perm contract at ezy it is a pretty good place to be. I would certainly not, at this stage, consider leaving here for Norwegian, Vueling or Wizzair.

[McBruce]

From a recent article with the Norwegian CEO

He claims politicians have yet to wake up to the opportunities that cheap air travel can bring: he thinks the numbers of incoming tourists add up to millions of jobs to be created in Europe. That far outweighs any race to the bottom in a few thousand airline employees' jobs, he said. "If I was a politician, I wouldn't give a **** about the airline side." In Europe, he said: "We've exported all our industry to the far east. At least we have a very good museum to show them, they will have to come spend money in our museum.


Full article here - How are Norwegian Air Shuttle's low-cost US flights financially possible? | Business | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/04/norwegian-air-shuttle-low-cost-gatwick-bjorn-kos)

[Magnetic Iron]

Regarding Norwegian´s Spanish bases I understand that many Vueling pilots are applying and lining up to go to Norwegian, when the 320`s arrive.

As Vueling pilots are currently quite low paid, with between 11,000 and 14,000 Euro base pay plus variable hour quite indecent. Many Vueling FO´s are unhappy with their low pay.

Looks like Norwegian has a number of A 320 experienced Type Rated local Spanish pilots ready to go for Spain.

[CaptainProp]

As Vueling pilots are currently quite low paid, with between 11,000 and 14,000 Euro base pay plus variable hour quite indecent. Many Vueling FO´s are unhappy with their low pay.

€11-14000 "low pay" for a LOCO? Got to be something wrong here....

[Everfly]

11-14000 per year to make it clearer...

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Three Lions - Just to explain, my comments about the 200 hour cadets were not to say that we do not have them but rather you cannot run an airline with them. By that I mean you need experienced captains and training captains in particular. You can make up the demographics of the FOs how you like, although you would be very unwise not build in the possibility of promoting them as time goes by. Low-houred cadets will not be promotable for some years and that may stunt your growth later on.

As others are pointing out here, Vueling could yet be the saviour of NAS in providing crews at the right time for their Airbuses. The problem with that is that Vueling are now an appendage of British Airways, who are attacking the low cost market themselves in a big way through them. The players fighting it out are basically easyJet, Ryanair, Norwegian and Vueling. Everyone has a a price and if Norwegian gets that right they can pick the pocket of Vueling and get whoever they want. The problem is that BA (Vueling's backers) have two massive incentives to stop that happening - their own desire to be top dog in the market, for which they require experienced captains and the need to prevent Norwegian expanding. Both can be achieved by preventing the flow of key pilots (experienced training captains in particular) leaving them through their own inducement packages. (I just hope easyJet do the same!) This is a competitive industry and all players in the game must pay the market rate to get the goods and services they require. If you require some very experienced pilots on type, and everyone is basically looking for the same people, then that puts up the price - the wonders of supply and demand. If there is a glut then the price goes down - simples! Just have a look at some of the salaries A320 captains can command in China right now to see what supply and demand does. Frankly, I can only rejoice at the situation and hope we all benefit.

[captplaystation]

AdM,

Most of us have been waiting for the pendulum to swing the other way on "Supply&Demand" for a L O N G time. Unfortunately, every time we thought we were "nearly there", someone else conveniently (for the Beanies :mad: ) went bust, and the status quo continued.

I admire your optimism, and cross my fingers it is well placed. :D

[SR71]

For example, that little white bump on their 737 fuselage with all the wi-fi gubbins in it would cost around 1% in a fuel penalty - that is a catastrophic loss for any airline given the margins.

True.

But every 738 of theirs carries ~20% more passengers than an Orange 319...

So even if you reckon their smart uniforms will only account for persuading 1% of their punters they're a better outfit than EZY, they're still generating 20% more revenue per flight for an equal ticket price.

What is refreshing about the Norwegians is that they are nowhere near as cynical as the English.

No doubt Kjus is a maverick and I think their expansion will slow but its laughable to suggest they're losing money. They're making boatloads of it. However, the share price is under sustained attack for all sorts of reasons, many mentioned on the board already....

NAS can always, in the final analysis, retreat to Scandanavia, but my guess is that isn't about to happen soon.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

SR71 - there is no doubt that a 738 is a good size, but the only thing that matters is the cost/seat. When easyJet bought the A319 more than 10 years ago it was a deal they could not say no to. The future of easyJet is the A320 (180 seats) and the A319 (156 seats) will gradually disappear. The reason Ryanair have maintained their No 1 position at taking the most passenger is having a 189-seater aircraft, when for years easyJet had a 156-seater as competition. Although I always doubted the wisdom of the A319 (Hamburg-built), at the time the order was made there were no production line slots available for the A320 (Toulouse-built). Therefore easyJet got a fantastic deal, which at the time was the best in Airbus's history. I am told this latest deal is actually an even better one, although the details are very secretive, as you might expect. Norwegian currently have 73 738's (186/189-seater) and in Nov 13 easyJet had 64 A320s, but that changes month by month in favour of more A320s. Norwegian have taken a big risk by signing up to massive expansion plus a split fleet of Airbuses and 737s - something considered absolutely opposed to a successful low cost model. As I have said previously, they have decided to go for massive expansion directly into the territory of easyJet, Ryanair and Vueling - some might say fools step in where angels fear to tread. You can argue who has the lower costs, but no sensible low cost airline wants to complete directly with another one rather than go for the easy pickings of the legacies. Everyone who goes on Norwegian say it is a great service, and I have no doubt that is the case. Where my doubts lie are in the sustainability of direct competition against far more established carriers who have been able to negotiate better deals at more favourable terms. There is no doubt their crew costs are better due to their policy of employing contractors and non-unionisation. They could prove me wrong, but right now I do not believe that they will have the long-term survivability of Ryanair or easyJet.

[LNIDA]

Quick facts about Norwegian:

Number of aircraft: 87
Number of routes: 413
Number of destinations: 128
Pax 2013: 20.7 million
Pax Jan 2014 1'530,441

Of these 87 aircraft 84 are 737's and another 13 are due this year, two delivered already, plus another 4 787, the reason for ordering both have been explained elsewhere, the Neo has lower fuel burn than the NG the MAX will have lower fuel burn than the Neo and Norwegian can not get more aircraft from either supplier more quickly than going down the dual supply route, plus it screws others up from getting aircraft with lower costs earlier.

The difference in uniform cost will be a €400 or so, but when you wear one and walk past some other airlines crews you know you belong some where that values quality.

Just read the reviews on Skytrax (non long haul) which is very positive and although the reliability issue with the 787 have without doubt hurt, it will recover once the 787 fleet reaches a critical mass, especially if they get hold of the cancelled Lion air order for 5 with delivery due in 2015.

The principal share holder is 67 and can't/won't wait 20 years for it to grow.

The various performance packages on all new build aircraft more than offsets the 1% (if that is what it is, I think it might be higher?) for the hump, and all new aircraft are 500kg lighter due different interior trim anyway.

25m is more than achievable this year, but that still a long way behind easyJet, let alone Ryanair who have out grown easyJet year on year until of late.

Vueling pilot salaries are one reason why IAG have ordered 60 airbus for them to play with, but Norwegian have not been over impressed with the CRM demonstrated by some Spanish applicants, so i don't think you will see wholesale Vueling recruitment in the way that Ryanair pilots are joining Norwegian

In 6 years they plan to be at 220+ aircraft, in the mean time its good to see more job opportunities

[kick the tires]

SR71. So even if you reckon their smart uniforms will only account for persuading 1% of their punters they're a better outfit than EZY, they're still generating 20% more revenue per flight for an equal ticket price.

Thats assuming that the operating costs of the 738 and 319 are the same!!

Are they?

[A and C]

I doubt if You will get an answer to the cost per seat mile from anyone NAS undoubtedly know this down to the last decimal point..... as for EZY my experience indicates they are unable to count the number of seats on an aircraft to sell !

[Alexander de Meerkat]

kick the tires - the operating costs of an easyJet A319 are substantially lower, but of course they take less punters. Without wishing to ignite the Airbus v Boeing debate, both companies would claim their operating costs are less when comparing a 320 to a 738. Even more difficult to know the truth over are the costs of operating a 737 Max v the A320NEO. Norwegian have taken the decision to hedge their bets and do both - not sure that has efficiency written on it, but that is the game plan. I accept the production slot argument (the same one that made easyJet by A319s instead of A320s). Nonetheless, it is simply not low cost 'best practice' to run two fleets with all the duplication of effort that entails, not to mention the reduction of flexibility in terms of cross utilisation of crews. Anyway, that is their decision, and we will see who is right.

LNIDA

Thanks for that info. The 738 figures I quoted I think are actually correct as the rest are 300s or similar. I am not aware of any Airbus recruitment being started by them yet, but however they do it they will have to attract TREs and the like - my view is that without a substantial inducement that will not happen. I am not planning to go there, but any upwards pressure on salaries is good news for us all. The big 'boom or bust' decision by Norwegian is to reach 220+ aircraft in 6 years. That will prove to be either amazingly insightful or a complete disaster - I am not at all sure it will be a smart move but we shall see. Low cost airlines run on amazingly tight margins and even the decision to de-ice can destroy the profit for a flight. Therefore 1% fuel burns, wi-fi, video on demand etc is all added cost that is again totally opposed to the low cost traditional model. Have Norwegian got it right? I personally do not think so, but I may yet be proven wrong. There is no doubt they are making a big splash but, being a cautious individual, I would not be betting my house on their ultimate success.

[karanou]

Norwegian have to succeed

The Ryanair and Easyjet led quest to minimise costs as far as possible including the secondary action of flooding the market with as some one stated "200 hour wonder kids" for the good of the industry it has to end.

Quoting the minutiae if 1% gains due to wifi humps on fuselages et al - Wake up and smell the coffee. Ryanair and Easyjet in the bulk of Europe and Wizz air in Eastern Europe are actually driving the whole industry downwards forcing high quality operators to follow suit simply to stay in business.

I'm sure some of the posters on here wouldn't be so complimentary should they be unfortunate to lose their job. And finding it incredibly difficult to secure work even with 1000s of hours experience on type whilst witnessing wave after wave of the so called "200 hour wonder kids" been pushed into the bottom of the structure. It's immoral the only winners are the accountants at the locos and the shareholders at one or two "linked training providers"

Norwegian appear to be lining up to inject some much needed humility and respect back into the mix.

It's already rubbed off on Michael OLeary long may it continue. Norwegians success over the next few years are absolutely critical

Norwegian seem to view the loco operation with much higher regard for a whole raft of areas and not just cost.

Airline pilots wearing plastic coats and anoraks... Whatever next donkey jackets with orange trim or a yellow harp in the back?

[Tiempoby]

The Ryanair and Easyjet led quest to minimise costs as far as possible including the secondary action of flooding the market with as some one stated "200 hour wonder kids" for the good of the industry it has to end.


I fail to see how RYR and EZY are 'flooding' a market with 200 boys and girls... Surely it's absorbing said market which already exists... largely due to flight schools with slick marketing who tell the kids they'll walk straight into [Insert national carrier here]

[DutchExpat]

A d M you don't think between all the crews in Norwegian it might be possible there are TRI and TRE s that maybe just maybe flew other aircraft before they came to NAS? And that maybe just maybe some of them where flying airbus or even TRE s on Airbus before? I know it seems out there but who knows?

[Superpilot]

I fail to see how RYR and EZY are 'flooding' a market with 200 boys and girls

Pah!

Wood, trees, see, from, the, can't (rearrange at will)

[karanou]

If you fail to see it try looking a little harder. It isn't difficult to see tiempoby
Two schools in particular with more than just slick marketing ploy in operation

Ryanair have chosen to ignore the health of the industry as a whole something which Norwegian with their approach don't appear to wish to follow. Easyjet have followed Ryanair down this ridiculous path.

While Ryanair and Easyjet. And Wizz air for that matter continue to pump "200 hour wonder kids" into an industry while there are many experienced guys either out of work or for some carrier based in Outer Mongolia there is no hope for the industry. Good for the economics of the particular operator on a short to medium term basis. Bad for the industry as a whole long term.

Most, if not al Flight training schools do tell cadets what they want to hear. But this isn't the danger area, nor for that matter is P2F which actually doesn't appear to exist in UK since about 2009.

A couple of "flight training organisations" they believe they supply a good quality "product" (they were called cadets people or pilots long ago) are the ones in reference in this thread. It is time a few feathers were ruffled. MOL has spotted the threat from Norwegian so that in its self can't be a bad thing. A change is definitely required. No more no less. The current direction is dire.

[737 Jockey]

Frankly, we don't want or need Sleazy TRE's... Especially if they're gonna instigate/participate in the 'gang-rape' of our T&C's and of 200 hour cadets, with those vultures at CTC.

There's a lot of experienced guys at NAS, and amazingly, some have even flown the scarebus too. Who'd of thought it!

:ok:

[Nightstop]

When's NAS DEC onto the A320 likely to start?

My CV: EASA ATPL: 25,000 hours total. 9,000 hours P1 A320 & current. 5,000 hours P1 B737. 5,000 hours P1 BAe 146. 5,000 hours P1 F27 etc.

No desire to be Based in LGW thanks ;)

[kick the tires]

Nightstop, dont do it! ;-)

[LNIDA]

Ryanair have done a fantastic job of training all their wonderful type rated 738 pilots, they are a breeze to fly with, very professional and extremely well trained.

They know that the grass is greener, but appreciate it.

If the scare bus comes along, then i have no doubt that we will have plenty of applicants from across the globe, including easyJet pilots, perhaps not as many as Ryanair pilots but more than enough, if you work for easy jet and spend the amount of time that ADM spends on what is a Norwegian thread, then you are either worried or interested, otherwise why bother, i don't give a FF what easyJet are up to??:cool::confused:

[A and C]

Do it ! You will enjoy working for an airline that treats its employees as adults.

[BluSdUp]

Dear all.
John Smith mentioned that the management of FR at the end of the day only answer to the shareholders and the manegment of the money.
Wrong.
As an former Postholder I was ultimatly accountable to the local CAA , the Board of Directors and the Company finaly. As Postholder Head of Training.
Diffrent century, same general rules, intension of the law! .?
Now for Norwegian.
For arguments , lets forget Long Haul,: Boom or Bust.
Norwegian is going to kill FR, why , Fr are an Irish born :mad: funded by us owners subridised by Seatle and so scaread they do not even have row 13 in the cabin.
It is a pure gamble , a bet, and the inhumane owners and managment are so scared of Murpey they do not even have a seatrow 13,,, children.
To them its all a game,
Nevertheless, Bjørn is in town.
The Polar Bear, Yes he is cosy, But. :...
He is All Buisness: Former Norwegian Paratrooper ,
F 5 and F 104 fighter pilot
norways fastest law Degree.
Partner in Law firm in Oslo ,spesialicing in merchant marine law, ( yes we stil are the fifth biggest in the world)
Bjørn Kjos , Norwegians owner and President is going to employ some French armory to take back what is ours.
We founded Dublin, and we shall close it. Normandy is named after ,,, .
Stanford Bridge was a blunder, .
40 % of all oil inported to the UK in 1939 to 1940 was on Norwegian keel.
We are comming to claim our right. With a super product and Airbus at our side. Merchants we allways , good sailors we allways find.

[Nightstop]

Thanks A & C, I can't wait. I've flown as a pax on NAS and was very impressed, no endless condescending PRAMs, no hard sell, nice interior, good wi-fi connection en-route.

Kick the Tires, unless you've got webbed feet, I can't see the attraction of operating out of the UK. Nos vemos pronto de nuevo en la soleada Espana :ok: .

[A and C]

I agree ! I would still be at a Spansh base if it were not for some (tragic) personal circumstances and UK business interests.

The Spanish base provided a great lifestyle working with a lot of very good people, if my decision was on working conditions alone I would still be in Spain.

[bringbackthe80s]

How does the basing policy work for a new joiner guys?

say I wanted to join in order to be based in MAD, is it clear from the beginning what base they give you? and can they change your base any time?

[WHYEYEMAN]

John Smith, thank you for your timely injection of common sense.

I've read this thread and there's a lot of talk about NAS saving the industry or words to that effect. Wake up guys!! Whether you like it or not, it's about making money and that depends solely on your costs versus how much you can sell tickets for.

The difference in uniform cost will be a €400 or so, but when you wear one and walk past some other airlines crews you know you belong some where that values quality

This may give you a warm fuzzy feeling but if they're spending 400 Euros per pilot on giving them that warm fuzzy feeling then I would have to ask myself where else are they p1$$ing money up the wall.

the problem for EZY is that RYR are aiming to squeeze the bottom end of the EZY customer base and Norwegian are squeezing the top end with a superior product at a comparable price.........interesting times ahead

EZY and Ryanair are operating in quite different marketplaces with little overlap. EZY compete with the legacy carriers at the prime airports whereas Ryanair keep their costs down by using secondary airports. It's a different business model. The question is where do NAS fit into this? If NAS can offer a superior service for exactly the same price then they will do well. But if their costs are higher then they won't actually make any money. If it doesn't make any money then the shareholders will pull the plug. I may be the not-so-proud owner of a cheap plastic coat, but that gives me the warm fuzzy feeling that my employer is not paying over the odds for anything else either. If you check the easyjet share price then you will see that the 'plastic coat' approach to costs seems to be working well.

Norwegian has gone down the road of offering high class refreshments delivered promptly to the passengers and that is what the passengers seem to like, rather than what they see as the bullying tactics of RYR ( and to a lesser extent EZY) that just makes them shut their wallets.

I'm not sure what kind of high pressure sales techniques you think are going on down the back in other airlines but it mostly consists of 'any drinks or snacks for you sir/madam?'. Anything which causes people to shut their wallets really doesn't go down well.

I wish NAS the best of luck because I think they're going I need it. To me, something doesn't add up.

[TurboTomato]

It's a rather sad reflection of the industry when having a half decent paid for uniform can be considered p1$$ing money up the wall, and that having one is seen as a bad thing.

[767200ER]

Thats what they call Envy i think :)

[A and C]

It is the unrelenting sales PA's that seem to never stop on some airlines a that are refreshingly absent on NAS that I was referring to.

[truckflyer]

The only has to be one winner in this, or?

First EZY discovered they could win over more customers by offering more and better service, closing the gap to the legacy carriers.

Then RYR discovered their rotten treatment of customers was actually moving them backwards, so they now try some late chance gimmicks with seating and x-tra small carry on bag, to try to get some positive publicity.

Recently I took a flight with with NAS, early morning flight from LGW, first there was no rush and stand 1.5 hours waiting for boarding. Boarding announcement, everybody walked to their allocated seating. I would say the boarding was faster then the free for all you see at some RyR flights.

As I was with my daughter, we was both tired, we took of dimmed down lights, and during cruise, guess what, not those bright full on cabin lights, to make you have the most possible unpleasant experience, the lights was dimmed down, so if you wanted to relax / sleep, you could do this.

With the other LoCo's, as soon as they go into cruise, it's full lights on, announcements about one thing after the other, it does your head in. I actually bring ear-plugs and sun glasses in, so I can stay in :mad: peace.

Because the way they treat me, I am less likely to want to purchase anything, because these companies make me the passenger annoyed. With NAS, I felt respected and I did purchase some things for breakfast for my daughter and me.

RyR a little late are discovering what they have been doing have been upsetting customers, however have had little or no competition on their routes.
People / customers, are willing to pay a little more, to have these extra services and comfort. Not talking about legacy prices, but within reasonable range of say example RyR.

Also it does depend on what level profit margin the companies settles for, of course you can do like some companies do, squeeze the maximum from customers, employees and services, to make the maximum profit in shortest possible time, or are you in it for the long term.

Let's make another point clear, what happens the day government wakes up and discovers how LoCo's like Ryanair have been avoiding their social responsibilities for their employees and contractors.
Will RyR have enough capital to have to back pay for this? The social dumping model, that these corporations are dealing with is very dangerous and fragile, and there is no doubt that this is heading towards a brick wall.

I know NAS have a very different approach to this, maybe not perfect world either, but definitely much more tidy than all the other LoCo's in Europe.

The fact is that the difference between example NAS and SAS is much less now, SAS standards gone down, NAS gone up, and it seems NAS is targeting a market where people appreciate quality in addition to good value for money.

EZY have themselves discovered that this is the only way forward, and RYR are waking up, but what the future will bring for these companies depends on what the customers want.
The current trend is that customers are not happy with RYR, and believe me after flying with NAS, you would never return to RYR unless you had no other options.

In addition if you can treat your staff good, I guess NAS is probably the closest any European LoCo has come to the original of Southwest.
Personally I would not classify NAS as a LoCost company.

[WHYEYEMAN]

767200ER, I can assure you that uniform envy is not something I suffer with. If I really wanted to, I could use some of the free shares that I have been given by my employer to buy a top of the range, diamond encrusted Gucci rain coat. I do, however, have better things to do with my money, and so does my employer.

A and C, I'm sure that people far smarter than me, have figured out that making those PA's increases sales. So as those sales are an important part of ancillary revenue, the PA's will continue. They don't work on you, they don't work on me. But they work, and that's what matters. I think business people might be prepared to pay a little extra for the civilised atmosphere on board a NAS flight. But as anyone in any airline's commercial department will tell you, the majority of people will just go with the cheapest option. So, if NAS are going to price-match EZY and Ryanair but have higher costs then there can only be one result.

One thing's for sure, it will be interesting to watch, as NAS have certainly put the cat among the pigeons.

[karanou]

Interesting to watch for sure

No doubt ryr ezy crews and oaa ctc willing NAS to fail.

Everyone else willing NAS onwards.

[The Flying Cokeman]

I am sure DY has a good product at the moment but never the less it is known that DY compared to FR and EZY is the one with the least capital in hand and some claim there are some serious problems ahead for DY and their cash-flow.

I have never flown with them (yet) and I keep hearing of their free wifi and the non existing (in flight) high sale pressure technique by the cabin crew. It is worth however having a look at the fuel price that has dropped some +6% in the last 12 months and now DY has just announced a need to increase baggage and allocated seat selection by 33%.

Unlike what many on this thread believe DY is not considered a big threat by EZY. Not yet anyway? The main threat for EZY is Vuelling owned by IAG and we may in the future see BA short haul LGW being replaced by Vuelling planes and a base on very bad terms and conditions making it very competitive against EZY and that includes DY as well if they are still based in LGW by that time.

Regarding wifi it is believed that it will be on all EZY planes by 2017.

I wish DY all the best but I seriously think they have got too many balls up in the air trying to compete against everybody and it can easily be the end of them no matter how many planes they have got on order.

[truckflyer]

I think this also depends on what is your main customer base. I do know many who detest companies like RYR that they rather stay at home than fly with them. This is no longer a small minority group.

Customers attracted to Norway and Scandi-land are also of a stronger financial resource than many of RYR's main customer base, no taunt intended, but the social structure and financial strength of Norway vs example UK, can't even be compared. Norway is one of the richest countries in the world, with a very advanced social structure.
UK with regards to average population can't compare in financial strength of their customer base, and probably will find more customers not able to afford better than RYR. But also in UK, as soon as you go to the mid-level income and upwards, they are equally detested by RYR.

If you check EZY's new ideas from 2013, you can clearly see they are moving away from this LoCost model. It is better to fill the AC 120 PAX that are willing to spend their money, rather than 180 PAX that all bring their own lunch package from home, not spending a penny onboard, because they have already exceeded their budget on booking their tickets and £50 per extra luggage.

Considering this example the tickets for the 120 PAX will have cost the same as RYR's 180 pax total. RYR have cheaper tickets and cheaper clients, with less spending power.

Of course you still have many countries where they have no other option, where they still can not afford more, so they have to bring their own lunch and drinks.

Value the customers, make the customers feel like they are valued, and they will be coming back for more. Get robbed 40 Euros for each kilo overweight, or 200 Euro for not printing your boarding card in advance, and the publicity over time will kill your business.

[calypso]

Norway may indeed be one of the richest countries in the world but:

Population of Norway : 5 million
Population of the UK: 63 million

As far as the uniform goes no way it would cost 400 euros more. The Ezy uniform cannot cost them more than 70 quid all in, half of that being administration and delivery. It is cheap, it feels cheap, it is demoralizing and it reminds us everyday of what the company thinks of us. I think it is extremely bad value for money considering what a uniform is meant to achieve in the first place. There are always people that don't care what they wear in the same way that we see people going on holiday in January with shorts, a t shirt and flip flops. I would say that for most of us is pretty depressing. Specially that nylon winter coat.

The NAS uniform must be a lot better but I bet it doesn't really cost that much more. You must remember that EZY is very very good at saving that extra 10p that will cost an extra 5 pounds in the long run.

Personally I hope NAS does well and bring with them a more human way of doing business. I fear that they are late to the party and they will need a very very large load of cash to take market share from the incumbents.

"Orders are vanity, profits are sanity"

[Magnetic Iron]

The Viking hordes have returned

[go around flaps15]

The uniform and all the gear that goes with it(there is a lot) is not even close to 400 euros. Try doubling it and then add on a bit.

All provided by the company.

I quite like the warm and fuzzy feeling as well.

[A and C]

The sales thing is a lot more subtle than you think and very much aimed at the culture of those you are trying to sell to, what works with a family of chavs won't work with the Scandinavians or the British lower middle classes so you have to play to your audience to make the most of the on board sales.

The interesting thing about NAS is the passenger comments when leaving the aircraft, two or three times I have heard " glad you are doing this route, I won't have to use easy jet". But the best was after BA canceled a flight and NAS picked up a few passengers most of who commented that the aircraft and service were as good as BA and the price was so good they did not mind paying for the (much better) refreshments................. And all of them love the WIFI...it must be remembered that the WIFI not only connects to the Internet but also to the aircraft entertainment system.

The fact of the matter is that NAS are not only stealing the top end of the LOCO market from EZY & RYR bit they are also getting a chipping away at the BA & SAS economy passenger base............ These are all people who will spend more money on board than your average chav.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

After a while on these threads we can all pick up the 'party line' each of us is going for. I would be accused, probably correctly, of backing easyJet because I work there and really like it. A and C, for whatever reason is very anti-easyJet and this is fine too. Both of us could be accused of having rose-tinted spectacles in our assessment of the situation, but at this juncture I am sticking to my view that Norwegian are doing a great job at taking on the lo-co companies but will fail in the end. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

Regarding BluSdUp's post, I have to say it is a little 'out there'. He claims to be a former post holder at Ryanair I think but is now clearly very anti. It has the slight air of the lift not going to the top floor and much more like listening to an Eric Cantona press conference than a rational view on the world. I frankly could not follow the logic at all, but Bjorn appears to be the man - I am sure his employees (are they not all contractors?) just love him.

[SR71]

but at this juncture I am sticking to my view that Norwegian are doing a great job at taking on the lo-co companies but will fail in the end

The problem with this board is it is sometimes too UK-centric.

DY has been around longer than EZY, has gone about doing what it is good at slowly but surely and can ultimately retreat to a region of the world where you can only get from one end of the country to the other by air (not quite true but....).

Doesn't strike me as a recipe for failure? Nobody needs to go by air in the UK....unless you're trying to get to Cornwall.

:}

But you'd be forgiven for thinking some of the contributors to this board were accountants not pilots. Wishing DY success in reversing the decline that FR and EZY have foisted on pilots T&C's here in the UK is surely desirable?

As for the myopic "only the shareholders views count", thats one of the reasons our country suffers from chronic short-termism, whether it be the pensions industry, infrastructure spending, mortgage provision, re-balancing our economy etc etc

Frankly, its pathetic. Big institutional gains are the ordinary populations loss. Channel 4 news yesterday....RBS GRG Group purposely driving small businesses into the ground.

:yuk:

We need to be doing whats good for ALL of us not just powerful shareholders, especially in an international world.

Meanwhile, the Norwegian SWF is the largest in the world....

[737Jock]

Reversing the decline? Maybe you should read up a bit on the employment tactics DY would like to introduce...

[SR71]

Reversing the decline? Maybe you should read up a bit on the employment tactics DY would like to introduce...

Which is why Unions and organisations from all over Western Europe and the USA are addressing the matter...

It doesn't take much to wish them (both the Unions and the airline) success from behind your keyboard does it?

Sucking pilots away from Europe's largest LOCO shows a proportion of the population voting with their feet....

I'm not one for going life as if its always a fait accompli.

:uhoh:

[LNIDA]

The cost of norwegians uniform package including flight cases, overnight cases and so on is circa €1000, a plastic jacket is not much use in Norway in winter!!

Norwegian do not operate like any other LoCo airline in Europe, crew routinely night stop around the net work, it means they can get 5 or sometimes 6 sectors out of a crew and have the aircraft available at the right place for the first wave in the following morning, this includes overnight flight from the Canary Isle to Finland & North Norway & Sweden, which at near 7 hours are too long to do on a return pair, landing at 5 am taking into account the two hour time difference, food service, lights dimmed and sleep, wake up call 20 minutes before landing, no crew or FD PA's, the goal is very high aircraft utilisation, check flight radar 24 after 11pm and see who is flying.

They are user friendly to pax with RM, happy to carry dog's & cat's, unmins, cargo, & connecting flights co-ordinated, the quality is much closer to SWISS than easy jet, let alone Ryanair, the UK volume is tiny compared to its European operations.

Their operation is cost efficient, much of the back office functions are outsourced, the aircraft have EFB with 3G update on the ground, no paper load sheets or flight plans or paper manuals, all data comes SMS to Capt & F/o (who get a phone allowance) and takes seconds to complete hence the very high OTP

I have no idea what the financial performance is, but tomorrow they publish their last quarter of 2013 figures and that will include the period which the 787 tech problems.

[A and C]

The "some reason" I am not very well disposed to EYZ has something to do with the way they have acted.

I was commuting a lot to Spain and at the time my wife was very ill ( and died later) one night EZY bumped me off a flight to the UK because they said it was full, they offered me a hotel and €250 compensation, less than the statutory €400 for a flight of the distance in question. This left me having to sort out someone to be with my wife at 22:00 at night and caused a great deal in the way of family problems with her sister having to drive a considerable distance at a very late hour. To be fair to the EZY complants department they did go a long way to adressing the financal issues.

While not altogether happy I was content that they had done all they could after the event to redress the balance................... Then on my very next flight with EZY they try the same stunt, they tell me I'm off loaded and offer the incorrect compensation !!! Fortunately I had the previous flights email conversation with the complants department with me, showing this to the gate staff got me on the aircraft and no doubt some other passenger was offloaded in my place.

I except the terms of travel, if I don't turn up in good time for a flight I get offloaded and I loose the money, but if I turn up on time I expect there to be a seat to sit on. Clearly overbooking has become EZY practice and as such I try to avoid doing business with them as they can no longer be trusted to provide the travel I have paid for.

[sprite1]

rte.ie/business is saying the IAA have given Norwegian their license, as requested.

[mototopo]

Hi there,

Out of curiosity, is there any rumors/plans about opening bases in Italy so far?
More aircrafts coming need more room around..

[Alexander de Meerkat]

A & C - first of all, no one at easyJet wants to have any customer have a bad experience, particularly when they are facing difficult family circumstances. Let me genuinely apologise on behalf of easyJet for that unacceptable treatment. Nonetheless, every airline in the world has these issues and we are sadly no exception. That does not mean we should accept this as the norm (and we most certainly do not), but every legacy and low cost airline has numerous issues of customer satisfaction to deal with. It is probably no consolation to you, but I too have had some utterly frustrating experiences involving easyJet staff (and indeed many other airlines) - and I work for them! Nonetheless, I would have to say that I have had countless more good experiences and see every day the efforts made by the team to put the customer first. There has been a revolution in low cost thinking which we are at the forefront of and of which Ryanair are only now just thinking of catching up on. We know the customer is everything - a thought that was unthinkable a few years ago. To judge an airline on the basis of a couple of trips is simply not reasonable, given that we take over 60 million customers a year - the vast majority of whom love what we do and keep coming back for more. We have now one of the highest on time performance scores of any airline in Europe and we are striving for better. Our job is to take our customers from where they want to leave from to where they want to go, safely, comfortably, on time and at a great price. In the vast majority of cases we achieve that despite some enormous challenges along the way. No airline is exempt the difficulties you describe, and Norwegian certainly is not. It is what we do to put right the mistakes of the past that we, and all other airlines need to be judged on.

On other matters more pertinent to this thread, I was speaking to a chap only yesterday whose wife works for Norwegian. He was suggesting that the Airbuses are only being bought to be leased out - an interesting thought indeed. That would certainly make things easier for the recruitment team - they would hardly need any pilots at all! Anyway, I wait with interest and look forward to seeing the offers of 'golden hellos' to experienced Airbus captains and trainers to hit the pages of Flight International. It remains to be seen how many of those guys/gals would leave their current employers without a substantial inducement.

[captplaystation]

mototopo,

there has been (for some time now ) a FCO rumour, so, I think it is safe to say that it will happen (as most base rumours in NAS have so far ) the exact timing ? well who knows, and Boeing give us "only" 15 aircraft (excluding "plastic-fantastic" deliveries ) this year so who knows exactly when.

Alex , I think it is fair to say that you, & my colleagues A&C & others, are doing a fantastic job of flying the flag for our respective current employers.

Lest we forget, the Harpies are on a "charm offensive" & they will always undercut us. I think Easy/NAS are on a different level, and the "crisis" has probably reduced the chav spend , so we are well placed to pick up the slightly more discerning end of the pax market . . .but, even if Wayne & Wynnetta stay home, RYR WILL adapt to tempt the slightly more genteel clientele I suspect.

We are all chasing the same punters, and they WILL be swayed by service, but even more by price. Hell, even the "filthy rich " Norwegians allow Ryanair to have a fairly substantial timetable from Torp & Rygge , allowing the canny Norwegians to save some dosh for the important (relatively much cheaper) things in life I.E. going on the p*ss where it is affordable. To go back (briefly ) to the thread subject, personally, I still subscribe (FWIW) to the "leasing out" theory, I cannot see dual fleets working , logistically nor operationally.

[Three Lions]

Easyjet usually follow ryanair by about 6 months in although they now have people fro RYR in seniour positions this timescale may become less. MOL has left the starting gate with the charm offensive, ezy will no doubt try something simliar at some point in the near future.

Any airline that treats its employees and its customers with respect should prevail, ryanair and easyjet have had plenty of time to show their true colours and waiting to turn the corner until some other airline has a positive presence in the industry smacks of been forced by a better opponent. The opportunity was always there to improve the way they acted. Ezy seem intent to follow ryr no matter what the direction.

I wont even go into the issue of flooding the market by ryr and ezy with inexperienced guys - the genuine driver behind this is possibly the most obscene factor of all.

Ryr and ezy by their expansion have left lots of experienced guys out of work across much of europe. Pushing guys into the bottom of the stack in the numbers ryr and ezy have is incredibly irresponsible. Considering the amount of experienced labour readily available.

[LNIDA]

Norwegian 2013 figures 437MNOK (€52.5) profit before tax, down on 2012 due mainly to start up costs, wet lease, extra fuel cost for A340's and tech issues on the 787.

4 x 787-9 order announced today, which will take the long haul fleet to 14 aircraft by 2018 (6 x 787-9 & 8 787-8)

[The Flying Cokeman]

Three Lions,

EZY always following/copying Ryanair!? Are you having a laugh? EZY changed their concept several years ago by going after Business travellers and having high frequency on the right destinations and included allocated seating as well.

EZY share price has gone up by some 500% in the last 3 years- RYA up by around 200% so surely EZY can not have followed RYR.

[Three Lions]

Flying Cokeman - no im not having a laugh. I understand it was a common concern with flightcrew that that ezy were more of an orange/blu airline than out and out bright orange. You are the same group whichever way you look at it. id probably accept ezy treat pax better and crews better. But theres not a great deal in it.

Norwegian bring something to the table with much more humility and respect than either ryr and ezy.

John smith - along with ryr (who pull low flight experienced guys from OAA) ezy (who recruit ctc guys en masse) have expanded putting many operators out of business across europe. Direct function of this is that there are perfectly recruitable guys with 1000s of hours on type with lots of airline experience and more conventional military/turboprop/cropdusting/aerial photography/instructional/para dropping/air taxi backgrounds out there looking for work now their operators have either had to downsize fleets specifically due to the success of the ryr/ezy/wizz air model or gone out of business completely. ezy just like ryr and wizz for that matter continue to recruit an inordinate amount of inexperienced guys.

I do concede ezy and ryr and wizz do also recruit a percentage of experienced guys.

Apologies to both of you for the lack of clarity in my previous post.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Three Lions - I would have to agree with The Flying Cokeman here. It is undoubtedly true that in the past easyJet followed Ryanair - pay for hold baggage etc. That is, however, a long time ago and easyJet have wiped the floor with Ryanair recently. Ryanair have copied our website, allocated seating, business proposition and being polite to passengers to name a few. They are a long, long way off persuading anyone with a brain in their head that they actually value their customers, but Carolyn McCall is a million times better advert for easyJet than Michael O'Leary is for Ryanair. All his previous bravado and foolishness is just an embarrassment now to his shareholders and he is now a liability to the airline. He is too closely associated with the brash 'in-yer-face' comments that actually portrayed Ryanair for what it is - a company who became successful providing incredibly cheap but tacky flights with a staggering and almost immoral disregard for the well-being of their customers. Guess what - people increasingly do not want that now and unless they get a new CEO pretty quickly they will be in big trouble. The man has cooked his own goose in a big way and will leave a very rich man but with not a wet eye in the building. Let me remind some our readers of Mr O'Leary's more entertaining quotes and they can decide themselves whether he is an asset or liability to the 'new' Ryanair -

On passengers who forget to print their boarding pass: “We think [they] should pay 60 euros for being so stupid.”

On refunds: “You’re not getting a refund so **** off. We don’t want to hear your sob stories. What part of ‘no refund’ don’t you understand?”

On customer service: “People say the customer is always right, but you know what – they’re not. Sometimes they are wrong and they need to be told so.”

On overweight passengers: “Nobody wants to sit beside a really fat ****** on board. We have been frankly astonished at the number of customers who don’t only want to tax fat people but torture them.”

On apologies: “Are we going to say sorry for our lack of customer service? Absolutely not.”

On Ryanair’s image: “One of the weaknesses of the company now is it is a bit cheap and cheerful and overly nasty, and that reflects my personality.”

I have laughed as much as anyone at these sort of remarks, but I can also see that such an attitude has only got a limited shelf life. That shelf life has now well and truly expired, leaving the big question as to who will Ryanair get to replace him to keep the show on the road?

[A and C]

While EZY & NAS have their sights firmly fixed on the higher yield passengers, RYR will still have an attraction to those for who the price is the absolute deciding factor or those who endure the antics of RYR because the airport in the middle of nowhere happens to be very convenient for their final destination.

Both these groups are for very different reasons are unlikely to spend much money on the aircraft but it happens to be a reliable customer base, but it is a customer base who will move on very quickly when offered a practical alternative.

Say what you will about MOL and his ethics but you have to acknowledge that he is a very cute businessman and he and his team will in market terms bend with the wind, however it is RYR that will have to change the most to pick up the higher yield passengers and EYZ that are most likely to get squeezed in the middle if RYR ups its game.

[LNIDA]

The fleet plan shows 4 airbus aircraft in the fleet from 2016 none in 2015

[slr737]

Will there be more 737 in 2015? Head around 14 for 2014.

[LNIDA]

At the end of 2014 738 =83 + 5 733 total 88
At the end of 2015 738 =91 no 733 (planned)
At the end of 2016 738 +101 + 4 x A320 Neo's

4 x 738 delivered so far this year

All info from Norwegian investor information website

Longhaul in addition to the above

738 MAX deliveries very late 2017/ early 2018 100 on firm order
A320 Neo's 100 on firm order

So still along way behind easyJet or Ryanair in terms of fleet size, pax's and profits