Looks like Lion Air bent another one.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Type: Boeing 737-9GPER (WL) Operator: Registration: PK-LFH C/n / msn: 35710/2285 First flight: 2007-05-30 (6 years 8 months) Engines: 2 CFMI CFM56-7B26 Crew:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: Passengers:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: Total:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: Airplane damage: Substantial Location:Surabaya-Juanda Airport (SUB) Phase: Landing (LDG) Nature: Domestic Scheduled Passenger Departure airport: Balikpapan-Sepingan Airport (BPN/WALL), Indonesia Destination airport:Surabaya-Juanda Airport (SUB/WARR), Indonesia

Unconfirmed reports indicate that a Boeing 737-900 operated by Lion Air suffered a hard landing accident at Surabaya-Juanda Airport (SUB) in Indonesia.
The airplane, PK-LFH, performed the scheduled domestic service JT-361 from Balikpapan (BPN) to Surabaya.
Aviation sources report that the airplane suffered a tailstrike and bounced several times during landing at Surabaya. The airplane sustained damage to the underside of the rear fuslage, engine and undercarriage.

[awblain]

Mr Boeing in the process of clawing back his bulk purchase discount one decrumpling at a time?

[ManaAdaSystem]

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/533195-lion-air-hard-landing-tail-strike.html

Not only did they land hard, they "forgot" to tell ATC. The next aircraft landing, a Garuda 738, got damaged from all the bits and pieces left on the runway.
:mad: amateurs!

[Evanelpus]

They don't have a good track record, do they.

What are the Indonesian authorities doing?

[smiling monkey]

Well, at least they made it to the the runway this time.

And now you know why they've ordered 178 737-900 ERs!

[CargoOne]

Good for them premiums for hull insurance are just making it easier to self-insure

[BulePilot]

And nowhere on Indonesian news can you find anything about it. I bet Lion Air just pays off the Indo press whenever something happens so that it won't become public. The final cause of accident of Lion ditching in Bali (pilot error) wasn't published anywhere in Indonesia, unless I missed it. Lion Air buys ATC priority, they pay off the press so they keep quiet, pay off their pilots to fly over the hourly limits etc, etc. It might work for the moment, but for the long run it's doomed for failure.

[TSR2]

Lion Air buys ATC priority, they pay off the press so they keep quiet, pay off their pilots to fly over the hourly limits etc, etc. It might work for the moment, but for the long run it's doomed for failure.

I hope you have good solid evidence of this accusation or you may land yourself in a spot of bother.

[Jack1985]

Reports of injuries and a pregnant woman miscarrying, the latter is truly appalling.

[Will Hung]

Reports ? Or rumours ?

[deptrai]

3 passengers were taken to a hospital, according to the Indonesian Ministry of Transport (BulePilot: Lion Air Hard Landing di Juanda, 3 Penumpang Dibawa ke RS (http://news.liputan6.com/read/816513/lion-air-hard-landing-di-juanda-3-penumpang-dibawa-ke-rs) ). No further details in the media yet. Exactly how injured they were isn't very relevant, is it. No passengers should need hospitalization after a flight. Clearly this was not a landing you could just walk away from. Says it all.

And that on one of the longer runways in indonesia.

[Culthero]

No wonder, as Lion Air hires inexperienced (Dutch) pilots who pay Lion Air to get the job without any serieus selection process. That shows me that the hiring process for other pilots cannot be very serieous too.

[captjns]

Culthero asserts: No wonder, as Lion Air hires inexperienced (Dutch) pilots who pay Lion Air to get the job without any serieus selection process.

And yes Culthero, I'm sure your the greatest pilot since Erdinger Beer.:hmm:

[P40Warhawk]

Dutch Pilots are very well trained.

The selection process is indeed not the greatest in Lion Air, but it is not only with Dutch Pilots. Also Eagle did business with Lion Air.

The Fact that there are still so many Asian Captains who still work accodingly to their own traditional way of thinking of leadership and status makes it hard to get better safety records. CRM is something they never heard of.
What happened here exactly will be shown hopefully soon in final report. But what I say is I think quiet close to reality.
If FO sees that approach is not good or touchdown is not good, why not a go around?

I have learned at my MCC to speak up, no matter what. You want to come home safely I guess after work. Not going back in a coffin or in bits and pieces because of crash landing.

[SRS]

The fact that they must of put something in the tech log is progress. I have seen worse where the crew walks away without any log book entries.

[One Outsider]

And nowhere on Indonesian news can you find anything about it.Nonsense. Like most bules you are probably only looking for news in english as the only bahasa you know is bir.

[SMT Member]

Seems that Indonesia shall at all times maintain one carrier with a ready supply of aircraft with which to drill holes in the ground. The previous holder of the title, Adam Air, was allowed to smash a few aircraft here and there, but eventually the PR became too bad and they were closed. Still, not a few graves had to be dug before that happened, and what really happened was probably more a case of failing to grease the right palms.

Lion Air have so far suffered an alarming number of runway excursion and landing accidents, slowly working their way up to the point when they will, eventually, start smashing up aircraft on a far more spectacular scale, undoubtedly killing a significant number of people in the process. With a very long supply line of both aircraft and pilots, in both cases bought very much on the cheap, things will be allowed to deteriorate until someone pulls the plug. Declaring Lion Air PNG in the EU, US or AUS has no consequences, neither has downgrading the national Indo aviation authorities.

Facts are, Indonesia is one of the most corrupt places on this earth. Safety standards are indeed something they pay to be compliant with, just like everybody else. It's just that they're paying far less and to someone far different than the rest of us.

Best thing one can do, therefore, is stay the hell clear of Lion Air and its ilk. If you are working for a company requiring local transport in the area, prepare a briefing to your director of H&S, lining out the pure facts about Indonesian aviation in general, and this specific operator in particular. If you're on your own dime, avoid domestic travels in Indonesia. If you are a local, and cannot avoid domestic travels, decide now which deity you prefer the most and become a devout worshipper.

[tdracer]

SMT
Having spent quite a bit of time in Indonesia, travel of any type is somewhat dangerous. The safest way to get around is by train but that obviously doesn't work between the thousands of islands. I'd personally take air travel - even Lion Air - to either boat or bus/car. If nothing else, the duration of your fear is shorter when flying :E.

[DragonFly-ing]

And now you know why they've ordered 178 737-900 ERs!

Well... You know why? Because Rushdi Kirana, the little :mad:, his birthday is the 17th of August. 17-8 , hence the 178 orders. So now you know.

SMT MEMBER is spot on. Also BulePilot is spot on. Paying off local pilots to fly 160+ hours a month is peanuts. Local FO's are 'forced' to pass the 110hr/1000hr limit because you will never be considered for an upgrade if you don't reply to the numerous calls and sms' messages from Lion Air to keep on flying. :E

Rumours it's another Indian - Indonesian cockpit mixture for this hard landing, dangerous cocktail, same like the Bali Splash. One of Kush Bhasin his pay to fly wonders.

Even (hard RUMOURS NOW) some Indians got caught out with fake/invalid licenses, company gave them time to sort it out. Make it valid / re-issue and then they were put back on the line, money talks. :* (something like they 'send' the Lion simchecks to India for renewal of license, but never did because it is not recognized as an ATO, and they let their licenses expire willingly without telling Lion Air).

:}

[BulePilot]

Indonesian pilots concerned over safety - Asia - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/video/asia/2013/04/201342762750824255.html)

[RTO]

In a few years from now when P2fly and outsourcing really gains momentum the whole world can enjoy the abysmal safety record of Indonesia. I suspect I'll have to take a boat to my vacation when I retire, at least it will have less speed on impact.

[JanetFlight]

Sooner or later Lion (if accidents continue at this drastic rate), will turn into another Adam "The Flying Circus" Air....vanished with only a few memories, just my 2 cents..:oh:

[stator vane]

Their motto: "We make people fly" needs a little more effort?

[RAT 5]

That could be interpreted in a rather sinister way; as little old grannie is frog-marched at gunpoint to the rear steps quaking with fear.

[cockney steve]

^^^^ NaH! Tin tube stops abruptly, pax are launched through the air.....if that isn't "making people fly", what is? :E
3rd. world country, life is cheap and held in low regard.......don't apply first world standards of expectations and you won't be disappointed....otherwise, leave them to mature into a modern, first-world culture in their own good time.

[captjns]

Well at least the skies over Euroland and the US won't be free of the likes of JT for the foreseeable time.

[flaps35]

For the spare parts?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Not to worry :O

Boeing just announced that 737 production has just been increased to 42 air frames per month. There is no danger that Boeing can't build them faster than Lion Air can wreck them. :ok:

[Doors to Automatic]

I wonder if this one was practising the good old Indonesian Flap 5/220kts VREF SOP? :p

[kwaiyai]

Janet flight,
FYI one of the big guns from Adam is in a HKG airline now.

[tdracer]

About 10 years ago, a Garuda pilot seriously bent a brand new 737 before it was even delivered (not sure if it was pilot training or customer acceptance flight - it was kept pretty quiet aside from a few photos that were quickly scrubbed from the Boeing internal web):=

But that being said, while in Indonesia I'd still rather fly Lion or Garuda than deal with the even scarier alternatives:(

[Rush2112]

Garuda are much improved, but I would rather walk than fly on Lion!

[flyboyike]

After my previous airline shut down a few of our people went to Garuda to fly the shiny new CRJ-1000s. I just couldn't make myself go all the way to Indonesia to log more right-seat time in a CRJ.

[ponders]

Flew out of SUB/WARR last month and saw PK-LFH in the apron stripped of its engine. Next to it is another 737-NG by Lion and I couldn't make out the registrations PK-LG? also stripped of its engines, but I can't seem to find news about the later.

Those familiar with SUB/WARR would notice at any point of time there's always few Lion 737NGs seemingly idling in the Naval Hangar... anyone knows why?

[B739ER]

Flew out of SUB/WARR last month and saw PK-LFH in the apron stripped of its engine. Next to it is another 737-NG by Lion and I couldn't make out the registrations PK-LG? also stripped of its engines, but I can't seem to find news about the later.

Those familiar with SUB/WARR would notice at any point of time there's always few Lion 737NGs seemingly idling in the Naval Hangar... anyone knows why?

LFH is now flown to Batam, Lions heavy maintnace facility, for the last repairs.
And why you always see Lion planes, sometimes with parts missing, in SUB (south apron), is that it is a Lion maintnance facility.

I see a few comments on Lion pilots in this tread. Lion pilots consist of
- mostly local captains, some expats
- a majority of western FO's last couple years (but decreasing percentage)
- many indian FO's (also decreasing)

I have to say that western pilots has not been involved in any accidents or incidents I know of. Indian FO's has been involved in most, including Bali and the one discussed here.
Lion captains, locals, has the same level of knowledge/skill as in other companies in Indonesia. Most are from other companies, including from Garuda. Unfortuately, many has low standard compared to western standards. This is a problem for the nation, not only in Lion.

When this is combined with
- landing on many short runways
- often in tailwind, as many airports has approaches to only one RW and some has one way in, one way out, due to terrain
- many VOR approaches, often not alligned with RW (both Bali and SUB was VOR app)
- even an NDB circling approach (not even in the database) tracking oubound two NDB's with two missed approcah proc depending where you are in app, ending at 1000 feet 90 degrees to the RW faceing a vulcano, with a short runway and often gusty winds
- tropical weather
- a company with chiefs that dont accept fatigue etc as reason not to fly and dont like pilots that call in sick
- a culture where you shouldnt question a higher rank (and they sometimes has limited knowledge and skill) and a FO know the company in any event will support a capt over him
- a difficult plane to land (900ER)
- 5-700 flights every single day
- Poor ATC compared to western standards
- Corruption in all levels of government

Yes, then you will have a few incidents every now and then. Any company in the world would have higher risk in Indonesia. An Indonesian company even higher.
But Garuda is no better. They have the same local pilots and the same skill and knowledge, and a much poorer track record (do a "garuda accident" google pic search :ooh:)

And with expats leaving, its not likely to improve. :ugh:

[Tinwacker]

B739ER a good write up and thanks to read some commonsense...

As a frequent pax on both Garuda and Lion Air you worry me even more!

[The Bullwinkle]

From the Lion Air website (my bolding):-

Fleet
last update
Current:
4x 737-400, 16x737-800, 68x 737-900ER, 2x MD-90, 2x 747-400 (one 737-800 lost on Bali during ditching) 13/Apr/13

A ditching would suggest intentionally putting it down on water.
I think this would be more accurately described as a crash as most pilots tend not to "ditch" fully serviceable aircraft!

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Another two-bit, rock bottom, abysmal airline with truly dreadful standards of safety. Although it does not operate to the EU, it is on their list of banned airlines. The list of air carriers banned in the European Union is a blacklist which includes airlines from countries with safety concerns due to alleged poor maintenance and regulatory oversight standards on the part of the EU, preventing them from entering the airspace of any member state. The first version of the list was published in 2006, on the legal basis of the Regulation No. 474/2006 of the European Commission, issued on 22 March of that year. The current version of the list was published on 10 July 2013. I cannot see any time soon when they will leave that list. The truth is that Indonesia is not fit to run a commercial aviation operation but does so anyway. They are so far behind western standards of safety that it is embarrassing - not that such criticisms seem to concern them unduly. Such is the nature of flying in that part of the world.

[GlueBall]

I hope you have good solid evidence of this accusation or you may land yourself in a spot of bother.

Really? ...Is that a threat, or a statement of fact? :rolleyes:

[harrryw]

@RTO
Have you ever travelled on an Indonesian ferry?

[Hogger60]

From Flight Global - Holy *&#$ did they screw this landing up or what!!!


Lion Air 737 bounced five times in landing accident: NTSC

By: Ellis Taylor Flight Global
Singapore

A Lion Air (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Lion%20Air.html) Boeing 737-900ER suffered significant damage as a result of a botched landing at Surabaya’s Juanda airport on 1 February, where the aircraft bounced five times before coming to a stop.
The aircraft, registered PK-LFH, was operating flight JT361 from Sepinggan International airport and was landing on Juanda’s runway 28 at 17:19 local time.
A preliminary report from Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee (NTSC) reveals that the aircraft bounced five times while landing, with the final touchdown resulting in a force of 3.87Gs.
The report states that an inspection of the 737 (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Boeing%20737.html) found that the nose wheel hub was broken, one main tyre deflated and the tailskid was also damaged. In addition, there was wrinkling to right and left sides of the fuselage, aft of the wing-body join.

As a result of the accident, two passengers suffered serious injuries and three others minor injuries that were treated at a local clinic. All 225 passengers and crew were able to disembark the aircraft with assistance from ground staff.

The report states that the co-pilot was flying the aircraft during the landing, with the captain acting as the pilot monitoring. Neither pilot had received bounced landing recovery or rejected landing training, the NTSC found.

The NTSC also found that an entry in the aircraft’s maintenance log from 31 January indicated that corrective action on the elevator control unit was conducted after pilots reported that the movement felt light with the hydraulic pump was on.

Although it did not report any findings or safety actions, the NTSC issued recommendations to Lion that it review bounced landing recovery and rejected landing training exercises, crew pairing standards and elevator control issues on other aircraft in its fleet.

No indication has been given for when the NTSC plans to issue its final report into the accident.

How are they still flying? Good thing they have tons of 737's on order. They are going to need them. I would not want to be their insurance company!

[smiling monkey]

Here's the link to the preliminary report on this incident.

http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/pre/Preliminary%20Report%20PK-DAL.pdf

Strange to read the license type for the co-pilot (and pilot flying) was given, not as 'CPL' or 'ATPL', but as '3443263' . And no, that's not the license number as Indonesian licenses only have 4 digits. So what kind of license is that?

Another strange observation is the expiry date of the co-pilot's instrument rating. It's not listed there at all. Begs the question why they have left this information out of the preliminary report, where as the captain's details are complete? And I take it, that his age, listed as '24 hours', is a typo.

[robtheblade]

@harryw

I have just returned from a month in Indonesia. My trip included four Garuda fights and one with Lion, Wings and Air Asia. All on time and in new aircraft.

I also had two ferry trips. The first one a "charter". This turned out to be a 95ton wooden tub with no seats and only a tarp for cover. I was expecting the boat to be intercepted by the Australian coast guard looking for illegals. The second was with Pelni, the government owned shipping line. It arrived ten hours late. This was so overcrowded that even the life rafts were occupied. We had a first class cabin. After a while I ventured out. The corridors, stairs and decks were full of people. The doors on our deck were locked, just as well as to have opened them would have ment moving boxes piled to the roof.

Say all you want about Indonesian airlines but they are the only way to travel in "safety".

[Massey058]

smilingmonkey,

He may have been on a validation of his foreign licence rather than a DGCA issued one. They are no longer issuing Indonesian licences to foreign pilots.

[arba]

smilingmonkey,

your link is for PK-DAL (a helicopter)

[BulePilot]

Looks like a FAA pilot certificate number, which have 7 digits. Yes it's true, Indonesian DGCA no longer issues Indonesian pilot licenses to non-Indonesian citizens, only validations. Just the opposite from Malaysia, where all expat pilots must get the Malaysian pilot's license, no more validation! Go figure!

[Kooljack]

arba

your link is for PK-DAL (a helicopter)

Just change the 'PK-DAL' in the URL to '-LFH' :)

[lilflyboy262...2]

Wings had a bit of a runway excursion on landing at Makassar a few days back in an ATR as well. March 28th I think.

[Heathrow Harry]

IIRC Makassar (Unjung Pandang)could have some very odd changes of wind direction and velocity on both approach and along the length of the runway............