UK IMC / EASA IR(R) in Group Share Aicraft

[SidT]

To the pprune fonts of wisdom... a couple of questions.

I hold a current UK PPL and EASA PPL and am looking to do the IMC rating.

From what I understand, following the announcement in October 2013, the period for obtaining a UK IMC has been extended to April 2019 as per this notice on the CAA Website...

CAA welcomes IMC vote | CAA Newsroom | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&newstype=n&mode=detail&nid=2298)

However, if I read it correctly the CAA website also still states that the UK IMC can only be converted to an EASA IR(R) up until the original cut-off date of 8 April 2014... as per this....

Restricted Instrument Ratings (IMC / IR(R)) | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2694&pagetype=90&pageid=15204)

So..
Question 1) Is it true to say (as it would seem from the above) that if I want to get the UK IMC rating and have it added to my EASA license (as an IR(R)), I still need to complete the IMC rating prior to 8th April this year? (I realise that either is still only valid for use in the UK), but I would like to future-proof, as much as is possible, this rating once I achieve it.)


Following on from this, I have currently been flying aeroplanes from a local approved flying school but I am considering buying a 1/8 equity share in a G-registered, EASA CofA aircraft.

Question 2) If I do join the group as a 1/8th, individually named, equity shareholder, can I receive my IMC instruction and complete the IMC course with an approved instructor in the group aircraft, or would I have to still do it at an approved training school? (I couldn't locate anything on the CAA website that might answer this question)

Thanks in advance for your knowledgeable assistance :)

Sid

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

Here's my take on the situation.

You have an EASA PPL and are flying an EASA aircraft (so that's all OK).

The IMC rating ceases to be valid for EASA aircraft from April 2014. In its place, the IR(R) provides equivalent privileges but is technically a different rating. The training course, ground exam and skill test have the same content. Subject to a minor technicality (it needs formal approval from the EU parliament, expected in a few months), the IR(R) will be available for new pilots for at least the next 5 years. And anyone who already has one (lapsed or not) can continue to use it beyond that if current and valid.

So you would be training and qualifying for an IR(R), not an IMC rating.

From April, any instructor training you would need to have an IR(R), not an IMC. That means they would have had to convert their JAR or UK licence into a blue EASA one by then.

I don't see why instruction can't be given in your shared aircraft, other than that you should double check the insurance (e.g. usually included but there may be minimum instructor hours or other constraints) and that the instrumentation is adequate. Likewise the skill test itself, although I believe that this would need to be done under the auspices/oversight of a flight school.

It is unclear to me if the flying school would need to have completed its transition to an ATO (a largely paperwork exercise, initial cost £100), but I don't see why it should.

Regardless of the regulations/paperwork etc, I'd strongly recommend the IR(R) course. It will expand the opportunities for when you can fly and avoid much of that worrying feeling if you are ever caught out and considering scud running. Plus, as with any further training, it will improve your flying skills overall.

[riverrock83]

1) Unless something seriously untoward and unexpected happens, you can add a new IR(r) to a EASA licence for the next 5 years. I was hurrying through my IMC rating, probably before I was ready, but now the extension is in place I'm doing it at a more relaxed pace.

2) I've done about 1/2 my IMC / IR(r) rating at a RTO (which aims to become an ATO in the future) on an LAA group aircraft. The only issue has been the equipment fit (and paying for instruction could be an issue for others). The IMC rating didn't need any connection to a training organisation what so ever. Even if it did, most training organisations are happy to add other aircraft to their list of approved aircraft anyway - it a paperwork exercise that is relatively cheap and easy.

I'd also recommend the IMC Rating - definitely worth the effort, not that I've completed mine yet!

[Whopity]

I don't see why instruction can't be given in your shared aircraft,No problem so long as it has adequate equipment; that was the original purpose of the IMC so you could exercise IFR privileges in your own aircraft.
Likewise the skill test itself, although I believe that this would need to be done under the auspices/oversight of a flight school.Not at all, any suitably authorised Examiner may conduct the test, nothing to do with any school.
This still remains a National rating and therefore does not require an ATO

[SidT]

Thanks for the responses all.

So it seems like I can do the training in the group aircraft (once I join), but I will need an authorised examiner (not just an instructor) to do the test.

I intend to complete this (weather permitting) before the April 2014 date anyway.

Safe flying,

Sid

[Whopity]

I can do the training in the group aircraft Just check that the aircraft complies with AIC White 001/2011 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/pamslight/pdf/4e415453/EG/C/EN/AIC/EG_Circ_2011_W_001_en) before you buy your share. April 2014 now has no real significance in obtaining the qualification, it is just the date by which you must have an EASA licence to fly an EASA aircraft.

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

...and in case it hasn't been said already, I'd recommend you buy the theory book (Trevor Thom Book 5 or similar) and prepare for the written exam. It's quite a long book but I also found it interesting with very relevant content.

You may also find the RANT software program very useful for practicing procedures (instrument approaches, holds, NDB tracking etc.). It should make the training time in the aircraft more worthwhile and probably save training costs overall.

Good luck

[Aware]

I have had this out with CAA on many occasions, as the AIC defines above you cannot train for a initial rating issue on a group ac, you can reval but not train for a rating you do not have.. I have gone down this road several times and CAA have always said no, although as usual the AIC is ambiguous. I am however likely to proved wrong but asked this Q at my last FI SEM and the answer was the same as CAA, you also need to attach ac to a school I have always been told.

[Level Attitude]

Not at all, any suitably authorised Examiner may conduct the test, nothing to do with any school.
This still remains a National rating and therefore does not require an ATOJust wondering:
Someone with a Part-FCL (or JAR) Licence training on an EASA aircraft
after 08 April has to be training for an EASA IR(R), not a national IMC.

Do ATO requirements not "Kick In"?

cannot train for a initial rating issue on a group acThink you can provided no aspect of the flight (including no payment
to the Instructor) takes place.

[SidT]

Thanks for the further responses... but seems not so clear cut at all in terms of learning in the group aircraft.

@Whoptiy - When I follow the link to the AIC it says:
"Forbidden: You don't have permission to access /pamslight/pdf/4e415453/EG/C/EN/AIC/EG_Circ_2011_W_001_en on this server."

Do I need to go via a different route or hav an account or something somewhere?

@SunnyDayInWiltshire.. thanks for the tips on the book and the software... had been looking around at various books available and had seen this one, so at least it now comes with a recommendation too :)

@Level Attitude... even if what you say is correct and I can do it as long as no payment is made.. I don't think I'll be able to get hold of an instructor without paying them, so it would seem that I will need to have the same conversation with the CAA that aware has had to get confirmation.

Ho hum, I'm likely to still join the equity group even if I have to carry on with my current flying school for the IMC/IR(R). Just more expensive to pay for both :)

[Mark 1]

Try this link to the AICs (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html)
Last entry under 2011.

[ifitaintboeing]

Do ATO requirements not "Kick In"?

No CAA approval is required for IMC or IR(R) training - it can be conducted by a suitably qualified independent instructor or within a flying school, providing it is conducted in accordance with the syllabus.

Think you can provided no aspect of the flight (including no payment
to the Instructor) takes place.

As has already been stated, relevant information is in AIC W001/2011.

ifitaint...

[SidT]

Thanks for the re-link, that worked.

Looking at 2011-w0001 it seems pretty clear to me following the flowchart in Annex A that I can do the instruction in the group aircraft which holds an EASA CofA.

Q1 - Is the flying training or flying test being paid for?
YES
Q2 - Is it an EASA aircraft?
YES

Answer: Private aircraft can be used provided that no other payments besides the payment to the instructor or examiner are being made.

Which they're not :) only the Instructor pay.

The prudent paragraph in 2011-w001seems to be
2.2 Therefore, individuals are permitted to pay an instructor for training in their own private solely-owned or jointly-owned EA SA aircraft.


Happy days.

[SidT]

Ok now I'm not so sure re-reading the flowchart and notice again as it seems to contradict itself or at least not completely line up.... I'm guessing that this is the ambiguity that was hinted at in earlier posts....

Paragraph 2.2. clearly states what I noted above that:
2.2 Therefore, individuals are permitted to pay an instructor for training in their own private solely-owned or jointly-owned EA SA aircraft.

However, it doesn't mention here that in a jointly-owned group members normally pay to contribute to its upkeep. It only talks about this clearly in paragraph 4.1 relating to jointly owned non-EASA aircraft..

4.4 If a person pays for the right to fly the aircraft and they also pay for instruction in the aircraft, the payment to the instructor is no longer the only payment in relation to the flight

Now if that paragraph were taken into consideration then the outcome of the flowchart would be different as it states that;
Answer: Private aircraft can be used provided that no other payments besides the payment to the instructor or examiner are being made.

So, if I ignore paragraph 4 (since that is about non-EASA aircraft and the aircraft in question is EASA) and only go by paragraph 2 then the answer is "its ok".

However, if I work by the flowchart and take paragraph 4 into consideration relating to the "other payment beside to the instructor" then the answer is "its not ok" ...!!!!

DOES NOT COMPUTE... ERROR.. ERROR :ugh:

Back to calling the CAA I think

[MrAverage]

But surely not if you are training for the initial issue?

[edit] Posts crossed......

[ifitaintboeing]

So, if I ignore paragraph 4 ... (and) only go by paragraph 2 then the answer is "its ok".

SidT, Correct. This was one of the changes introduced with EASA which has "over-ruled" national regulation, hence it applying to EASA aircraft and not non-EASA aircraft.

ifitaint...