1979 Western Airlines 2605 information?

[MrSnuggles]

Due to professional circumstances I happened to develop a private interest in aviation investigations. While searching for the Western Airlines 2605, Mexico City, 1979 accident I discovered that there is nothing at all on the web. It is like this crash never happened.

This is what I have gathered this far:

Some forum posts from 2004-2005 claiming there is "a wealth of material" on google. A few mentions of an actual report has been made and a few attempts to explain the crash - although that seems to be all hearsay or maybe not factual at least. Speculation about the relationship between the Capt and FO f.ex.

There is a small Wikipedia article about it, but no actual sources is referenced - no accident investigation f.ex.

A very brief mention on an NTSB Safety Recommendation makes me believe this accident actually occured.

I stumbled upon a site called tedbros with a few photos and a reference to someone called Eddy Valencia.

During my searches I have found no transcripts, no TV programmes (except for a one minute excerpt on YouTube), no Eddy Valencia, no CVR recordings, no accident report from SENTAM (Mexican aviation bureau at that time?), zilch, zero, nothing. All links from the old forum posts are gone, missing, wrong, uninformational, substituted or just plain dead.

I am astonished that all this information seems to have been available some years ago but now it is all gone. If anybody here might know a tidbit I would be glad to hear about it. If it is sensitive in any way, please let me know about it without bashing. I wasn't even out of my diapers when this particular accident happened.

[DaveReidUK]

While searching for the Western Airlines 2605, Mexico City, 1979 accident I discovered that there is nothing at all on the web. It is like this crash never happened.Summary here: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/1980/A80_59_60.pdf

The investigation was, of course, under the jurisdiction of the Mexican authorities and I've never seen a published report. Having said that, I have a copy of the NTSB's database for that period, but that doesn't really throw much more light on the circumstances.

[MrSnuggles]

Thank you very much DaveReid!

That seems to be the NTSB information I realized existed on this topic. I have downloaded it from your link. But this seems to be the only factual information about the crash available on the Web. The photos I saved are very unconfirmed and might very well be totally unrelated.

It is interesting that this crash seems to have vanished from the records, while older accidents are readily available. I would believe that the DC-10 would be the center of interest due to its accident history, cargo doors and the Air NZ event a bit later.

The Wikipedia article cites ICAO as a reference, but I have been unsuccessful in finding the source document (Circular 173-AN/109).

While this crash, according to the rumours, have more to do with CRM than materials and/or design of the airplane I still find it interesting to study, and if someone else wants to help me I would be most grateful.

[Newforest2]

Accident Database: Accident Synopsis 10311979 (http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=10311979&reg=N903WA&airline=Western+Airlines)

You would presumably have seen the Air Disaster report and attached photo.

[MrSnuggles]

Thankyou Newforest.

While I had not come across that site before, it still lacks real sources and is very very limited information. No reference to the accident report. The link to the photos suggest there should be four photos, but there is only one that actually exists - the other ones are 404's.

Crew error can be lots of things and the rumours are so strange that I would like to confirm what is true and what is not.

[Herod]

The accident certainly happened. IIRC the landing runway didn't have lights, and the lights for the closed runway were on. Not exactly helpful.

[BobM2]

The most comprehensive description and analysis by far is in the December 1983 issue of Flying magazine pages 100 to 107.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8BV...page&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=8BVI6sNpT4wC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Cheers!

[Newforest2]

Great locating that article, should help Mr.S no end.

[MrSnuggles]

Thankyou very much Bob2!

That article was extremely helpful.

Now I wish to locate the ALPA report referred to in the article, and of course the official accident report.

I am not familiar with Google Books. Is there any way I can download this excellent article from there? I have not found any "download" button.

[Spooky 2]

I think I know a little bit about this accident and the post above is pure conjecture along with a healthy dose of BS. Also, just for the record, Ernie Reichel, was the F/O, not the S/O on this flight.

Having flown Charlie Gilbert on at least 25 occasions on the DC6B, L188 and 707 I knew him best. Had flown with the two crew members several times each over a period of five years prior. This was a fatigue induced accident if there ever was one compounded by a number of irregular circumstances leading up to the departure. Reichel was going through a divorce so it's had to say where in mind was that night. No comments regarding the S/O.

One of the names mentioned early in this thread I believe was that of a Flight Attendant that survived the accident. If his stories regarding the Mexican authorities were to be beloved the US goverment should have banned any further bilateral aviation agreements between the two countries. Just say'n!

[MrSnuggles]

IGh

You are most helpful, I really appreciate that! Thankyou. Now I know where to look for further information, though maybe a bit gossip-y... ;-D

I will check with the library if they have access to any of the publications you mention.

That YouTube video was one of two things (the other was the NTSB paper) that confirmed to me that this crash actually had taken place. It is really scary, hearing those last 2-3 seconds.

Since it was a Mexican investigation, maybe they weren't so particular regarding publication of CVR sounds. This also implies that the report must be very hard to access, if it still exists even. Or am I just being a common turd for assuming that?

I wish I could get a copy of that TV program you mention, IGh. My web research concluded that there is such a program, but all links to it has gone all 404 on me.

And, yes, IGh, I know it is kind of lame to use the web as only source of information... but as this is a private interest (my professional life is more about materials, design, hardware, such things) I prefer to check out things on the web first. Usually that is sufficient, but in this case it proved to be a very disappointing source. Especially as I had no leads at all about where to look. That's why I asked here, and thanks to all you kind people I hope I find more information as to what really happened.

CRM is an intriguing and interesting field. Especially with so much gossip about this crash, some examples of gossip provided here for clarification:

"Capt didn't like FO so FO wanted to embarrass Capt because FO knew that they were landing on the wrong runway but didn't want to tell Capt so Capt would end up on the wrong runway and a spiteful FO could say "see everyone makes mistakes!"."

"No signs of disrespect between Capt and FO. FO tells Capt several times they are on the wrong track but Capt does nothing."

"Capt knew they were on the wrong track but for some reason couldn't change course."

"There was fog."

"There was no fog but it was too dark to see anything."

"It was not too dark but lights for 23L were lit while 23R was unlit."

"There were no lights and ATC is to blame."

"ATC did everything by the book."

"Western used to land at 23L even though it was closed."

"Capt was worried about landing because it was tricky."

"Capt had landed there hundreds of times - no biggie for him!"

And so on....

[MrSnuggles]

Spooky.

Yes, I read about fatigue somewhere, that is correct! But it is so hard to know what is fact and what is fiction in this crash. I am inclined to believe that might be due to lack of reliable sources.

May I PM you for further information from a first hand source?

[Spooky 2]

Fist off all and this is very important, the airplane did not just land on the wrong runway, it didn't land on the runway but rather the main was off the side of the runway in the dirt. So it's unlikely Ernie was simply watching the Capt land on the wrong runway as stated.

This flight was many hours late departing LAX. They called out a reserve crew because the original crew was going to be out of duty time. I forget just late it was or how much noticed the reserve had. As I recall the F/O commuted down from his home in Seattle so that must have added to the stress at the start of the flight. The Capt had been up since early that morning departure and if I'm not mistaken had spent some time flying a P51 that he has access to. All in not a good start for a crew that should have been taking it easy.

Captain Gilbert was an enlisted Marine during WWll in the Pacific. He may have been a little rough around the edges but certainly not a Captain who ran rough shod over his fellow crew members. Interestingly he took a leave of absence from Western while he was flying Captain on the DC6B to work for Japan Airlines. I think he just wanted get to know what the Japanese were like when they weren't shooting at each other.

[MrSnuggles]

Spooky.

Thankyou so much for that information. I haven't read anywhere else that they landed off the runway.

Do you have any written sources to this piece of information? Or can you point me in the proper direction to find any source for my self?

I still wonder if I may PM you.

_______________________

IGh, I all of a sudden realized that I have used some of your information regarding the TWA841 incident! Thankyou for providing me with that, albeit unknowingly. TWA841 is interesting in several aspects:

1) It was a material/design failure.
2) It involved no loss of life.
3) And yet there were plenty of materials, reports, photos, TV-programs etc to document the event.

Western 2605 involved loss of many people's lives, it was propably due to CRM failure (although that can't be confirmed at this point) and still there is nothing available on the Web.

These two accidents occured the same year. Strange.

[Spooky 2]

No PMs at this time as I'm pretty busy for the next week or so. I believe I may have the ALPA report on this accident and if so I would be happy to share it. It's not in my current location so I'll have to look for it when I get back home next week.

[Spooky 2]

Thanks for that post IGh.

Just a point that should be noted. WAL's SOP's called for the S/O to verbalize the altitude callouts by observing the radio altimeter display on the Captains panel during the landing. I'm pretty sure this was an industry SOP prior to the audio feature that was added later.

[MrSnuggles]

IGh, that was immensely helpful.

Thankyou SO much for those scans!

If you ever come to ARN, Sweden, I'll be happy to buy you a beer or two for your efforts.

[MrSnuggles]

IGh

I haven't had time to read the whole Circular, but I downloaded all scans, and hope to get some free time tomorrow. I browsed the pages briefly and didn't see any emphasis on crew work time, but that might very well be because of my short glance at the documents.

It is nice to have some real information at last, not relying on gossip, rumours and fairy tales.

Although... it is not unheard of that accident investigations, or results thereof, has been manipulated - knowingly or unknowingly - to suit someone's needs. This was, I believe, more prevalent during the 1970's than during other times. The major things that I come to think of are the infamous DC-10 cargo doors. TWA841 is another incident that my gut feeling says has not been thoroughly investigated.

Sadly the cargo door story should repeat itself. United811. I can't believe that those in charge didn't listen to the engineers and learn the lessons from the DC-10. It is totally incomprehensible.

Ouch. Sorry about thread drift now. Back on topic.

Yes, that ILS thing is peculiar. Rumours has it that they had nothing at all for the open runway so all pilots were told to sidestep from the glideslope at a certain point so they would land on the open runway. I can understand such a procedure when done in nice weather with lots of visibility, but to use that as a standard procedure for instrument flights, during nights or in low visibility is indeed... unusual.

Thankyou IGh for your efforts.

[Spooky 2]

I don't believe you will find any reference to a side step in this accident.

[IGh]

. . . don't believe ... any reference to a side step in this accident."side-step" aural and visual cues to spur pilots to an approach-maneuver.

NTSB proposed (?from the alpa-submission?) that that lack of the phraseology, and lack of a graphical-depiction, was the main problem: leading to the pilots' omission / misconception of the final maneuver needed to align with the other rwy 23R.

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/1980/A80_59_60.pdf

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv118/IGhhGI/WAL%20DC10%20Mex%2031Oct79/Side-stepdepiction_ntsb-Rec.png

The exchange-argument of communication, between NTSB and FAA, are found in the history of the recommendation:
history (http://www.ntsb.gov/safetyrecs/private/history.aspx?rec=A-80-059&addressee=FAA)

FAA's initial reaction to that ntsb-rec':
. . . THE SIDESTEP MINIMUMS ARE PUBLISHED ON THE CHART ALONG WITH STRAIGHT-IN MINIMUMS ... AND CIRCLING MINIMUMS. A SEPARATE ... CHART OF THE SIDESTEP MANEUVER IS NOT WARRANTED ... A HINDERANCE.... PILOT MUST UNDERSTAND HIS ATC CLEARANCE IF HE IS TO SELECT THE SIDESTEP MINIMUMS . . . Then the NTSB countered:
. . . We remain concerned that aircrews can be misled by the sidestep maneuver procedures as they are portrayed on standard US instrument approach charts, and we believe there is a need for a plan view of the sidestep maneuver for clarity. We note that Jeppesen has revised the Mexico City instrument approach chart indicating the transition to runway 23R for landing. This action would be responsive to the board's expressed concern if it were applied to all charts . . . There were several more exchanges about depiction of "side step" maneuver to the parallel rwy.

[Spooky 2]

Poor wording on my part. Thanks for your post. What I meant was that I don't believe the crew ever intended to make a side step during this approach and landing. I don't know for sure but I don't think it was ever briefed as such.

[MrSnuggles]

Now I have read the scans you posted, IGh.

Spooky, if you read Pg106_high_Lts.png scanned from the Circular and provided by IGh, on 1.10.1 it states that the approach was made with ILS from 23L with a "change-over" to 23R (this is also referred to as "transition" on 112.png). This must have been briefed as other aircraft used the same approach into the airport (see 115and6.png)

There is no mention of any CRM issues at all. No mention of any animosity on the flight deck. And, as IGh says, one gets the impression that it is the Capt who is PF. The short CVR snippet on that TV show also gives that impression. Thus, it would be extremely interesting to find the ALPA submission on this. I have tried Google but to no avail. Their archive goes back only to 2001 (at least for non-members) it seems.

Some things got clearer from this report. The runway lights on 23R were working. Lights on 23L were not. It was sunset but not dark. To land on 23R one had to make a "change-over" or "transition" from the ILS in 23L. The crew were on the right track when about 1000 feet above the runway but drifted left and descended into fog - not clear in which order that happened though. They did ignore minima and no call-outs were made. The aircraft landed with one pair of landing gears on 23L and one pair on the grass beside it. They might have seen a truck before executing the go-around but they struck the truck and ripped off the landing gear, then wobbled away and hit another vehicle and consequently never regained control as they scraped the ground into a building.

Very interesting chain of events. I would like to see a CVR transcript. Oh geez, I'm so nerdy. Sorry about that folks. You have been an immense help to me and I really appreciate that!

[Spooky 2]

You really don't want to hear the CVR and I'm sure that it's not available to anyone in the public domain. From the time they hit the truck until they impacted the building they knew they were gonners and the CVR clearly shows that. Damn near hit a BA 747 that was load pax at the terminal. All accidents like this one are horrific and this one ranks right up there with the worst.

Should be home this weekend and I'll look for the ALPA report,

[Spooky 2]

Searched high and low and cannot find the report. Last resort I sent an email to a former WAL pilot that was an investigator on the accident. If I get a positive response I'll let you know.

[MrSnuggles]

Spooky you are most helpful and I am very thankful for your efforts. Please feel assured that I in no way, shape or form expect you to do anything for me, a mere stranger on the Internet. You have been extremely kind as is!

I do feel like I need to clarify myself: I do not long for any CVR recording, only the transcript would be nice. I heard enough CVR excerpts from that short TV clip on Youtube linked to earlier in this thread.
Please do not interpret my words as anything other than a humble wish upon a star from my side. I shall do my best to try and locate anything by myself (sometimes with a helpful pointer from more educated people) as I, again, do not expect anyone to do it for me.

As mentioned, yes, this is a horrifying story - more so, I believe, because very few seems to know anything about this. The information you people so generously provided has shown that there may be several lessons to be learned years ahead of its time. Crew fatigue seems to have played a part in this play. What if there had been empahized actions against crew fatigue already in 1979 - then there may have been a whole lot of happy campers flying on Colgan in 2009... and who knows how many other accidents avoided since.

[Spooky 2]

Snuggles, no problem and I'll let you know what I find.

[vildish]

Hi there.

Recently i found a series of pics of this accident taken from a helicopter.
At that time my dad worked for the insurance company in charge of all the mexican government assets. The photos show an aerial perspective of the wreckage and how parts of the wings landend on top of some houses near Mexico City's airport.

Since i found the photos i started reading about the accident online.I want to share the pics but sadly the sharing button in here is blocked.

I would appreciate a lot if someone tells me how i can configure this for sharing.


Regards.

[Newforest2]

Possibly as a 'new' member, you are not yet permitted to post attachments? Will look forward to seeing them when the problem is fixed!

[DaveReidUK]

Since i found the photos i started reading about the accident online.I want to share the pics but sadly the sharing button in here is blocked.

I would appreciate a lot if someone tells me how i can configure this for sharing.

Can't you just put the photos on Flickr or Dropbox and post the URL here?

[Medinmay]

First off all and this is very important, the airplane did not just land on the wrong runway, it didn't land on the runway but rather the main was off the side of the runway in the dirt. So it's unlikely Ernie was simply watching the Capt land on the wrong runway as stated.

This flight was many hours late departing LAX. They called out a reserve crew because the original crew was going to be out of duty time. I forget just late it was or how much noticed the reserve had. As I recall the F/O commuted down from his home in Seattle so that must have added to the stress at the start of the flight. The Capt had been up since early that morning departure and if I'm not mistaken had spent some time flying a P51 that he has access to. All in not a good start for a crew that should have been taking it easy.

Captain Gilbert was an enlisted Marine during WWll in the Pacific. He may have been a little rough around the edges but certainly not a Captain who ran rough shod over his fellow crew members. Interestingly he took a leave of absence from Western while he was flying Captain on the DC6B to work for Japan Airlines. I think he just wanted get to know what the Japanese were like when they weren't shooting at each other.
My Father also flew with Capt. Gilbert on the DC 10 for Western Airlines. He would have somthing different to say about Capt. Gilbert. He was more than rough around the edges. I've been told he didn't treat coworkers very well.

[MrSnuggles]

Medinmay

While researching this accident I discovered many different stories about Capt G. Some says he and his accident FO were not on good terms, other discounts this claim. Hard to know what is fact and what is rumour.

[Gtinsimi]

I've read this forum before and thought of posting. My dad was the S/O. On the night of the crash when my mom dropped him off at the bus he said he had a bad feeling about that night. I've heard that captain was on the F/O about not being professional. f/o was going through a divorce. I've heard they used the CVR for training to remind people to get along in the cockpit.

[Spooky 2]

I have never heard any reference to this CVR being used in any sort of CRM training, and certainly not at Western or DAL.


The fact that there is no NTSB report on this accident is troubling to say the least.

[DaveReidUK]

The fact that there is no NTSB report on this accident is troubling to say the least.

Why?

It's not the NTSB's place to issue reports on accidents where a foreign AIB has carried out the investigation.

Incidentally the NTSB URLs have changed, the 1980 Safety Recommendations letter is now located at http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs/recletters/A80_59_60.pdf

[Spooky 2]

Okay Dave I understand, but a US air carrier, operating an N registered aircraft, with US citizens would normally generate such a report? The only official report I have ever seen on this accident was the one that ALPA produced, and I have since lost that document. What report are you referring to that was compiled in lieu of an NTSB report?


Thanks for you contributions on this website:ok:

[Bobbiej]

Hello Gents,

I realize this is now years ago but I was hoping to bring this thread back to life.
As other in here I am also intrigued by the utter lack of info on this accident.
After reading up on it a bit lately, I have also come across the book written by Eduardo Valenciana, one of the surviving cabin crew members - this is a mighty interesting read to say the least. His story makes clear how the Mexican authorities back then pretty much hijacked the investigation and kept the NTSB guys from getting anywhere near the wreckage - while locals were literally looting luggage.

I would be very interested to read the ALPA report on it, has anyone managed to get their hands on that?

Many thanks in advance and apologies again for digging up an old thread.

Bob

[Spooky 2]

You might find Eduardo on Facebook. I don't use FB, but I know a lot of the flight Attendants touch base there from time to time. Have you contacted ALPA directly with a request for this information?

[Bobbiej]

Hi Spooky,

I am not on FB either.. I’ve sent him an email on his website where he states he has a link to the ABC 20/20 documentary from back when, but no joy.

Never tried ALPA directly, is that worth a try?

[Spooky 2]

Hi Spooky,

I am not on FB either.. I’ve sent him an email on his website where he states he has a link to the ABC 20/20 documentary from back when, but no joy.

Never tried ALPA directly, is that worth a try?

Well you know they created report, so I'm just suggesting it would be worth a try. If you don't ask, you will never know. I heard the CVR recording on line a couple of years ago and was very surprised that it existed for general disemination. What is the point of your interest other perhaps a morbid curiosity?

[Bobbiej]

Well you know they created report, so I'm just suggesting it would be worth a try. If you don't ask, you will never know. I heard the CVR recording on line a couple of years ago and was very surprised that it existed for general disemination. What is the point of your interest other perhaps a morbid curiosity?

Gave it a try with them, let’s see what they say.
I am just curious to read some details on it, always find the investigations interesting and there isn’t anything on this one.

[DaveReidUK]

find the investigations interesting and there isn’t anything on this one.

Not so.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1451x467/n903wa_93ebd92b158edfd864c439dc3e769526e8e109f6.jpg