SID Altitudes

[Almost Okay]

I appreciate many will have their own opinions but references would be much appreciated, rather than just opinion alone. Thank you.

From the ATC Forum:

Be gentle please! I've registered to ask a question that came up on a flight a couple of days ago and I've been unable to find a satisfactory answer elsewhere on the Interweb.

A search of the site revealed answers regarding the cancellation, or otherwise, of altitude restrictions but I have a query regarding the actual flying of an SID when compared to my ATC clearance. There will, no doubt, be gasps of exasperation and cries of 'you didn't know that' but I've never flown an entire SID without ATC giving me other instructions, so it's never been a 'player'. Finally, before someone does go off half-cocked, can I just assure you that I do know what I THINK I'm going to do but if someone has a reference to the actual correct methodology that would be brilliant, as my search of ICAO 4444 has been somewhat lacking in its results.

In somewhere like the UK it is very easy; you're given an SID and that's it. Fly the lateral and vertical profile up to the final SID altitude restriction and then wait for ATC to give you higher. Snagless.

My question arises from the typical clearances given in Japan (and other places). Let's take NRT as an example from 34L. Clearance is "BAY 4 Departure, maintain FL200, expect FL350, Squawk 1234".

I don't expect anyone to go looking for a diagram of the SID but suffice to say it has three relevant altitude restrictions, namely: At or below 7000, At or above 11000 and At or above FL200.

As I write this it seems blindingly obvious what the answer is but I'll continue to ask, just for the reference and because I enjoy the humiliation.

Clearly I will stop my climb at 7000 by the appropriate point and this is where ATC normally tell me to climb further but what happens if they don't? Having passed the 7000 restriction point am I then cleared, without further instruction, to climb to FL200 (ensuring I pass the 11000 restriction at or above)? That was the initial clearance from Delivery but I'm so used to normal intervention by ATC that I'm not absolutely positive any more.

This is not a question of obeying restrictions if given something different by ATC but purely a question of can I follow the entire vertical profile of the SID if not told differently by ATC. The US have a very nice 'climb via' phrase that leaves no doubt in my mind but that's not the case elsewhere and I'd really like to be able to point to a reference for the ICAO means of correctly executing an SID if not otherwise directed by ATC.

Thank you for your perseverance :)

[AerocatS2A]

Yep, just the same as a STAR. You get given a final altitude clearance and a SID. The SID includes any intermediate altitude restrictions, but once you comply with those you continue climbing to your cleared altitude.

Think of it this way. If you didn't climb after the "at or below 7000" waypoint then you wouldn't meet the "at or above 11000" restriction. A SID, and a STAR, are procedures that require no further intervention by ATC unless they want to change something.

[JammedStab]

Correct, you are cleared to FL200. Using your Bay 4 departure as an example, my worry is these places that clear you to, say 7000 on departure and then prior to reaching that particular 7000 or below waypoint, you are cleared higher. I like to get a confirmation of No altitude restrictions prior to just ignoring the 7000 foot restriction.

[+TSRA]

Both great answers above me. I'll just add in that ATC is supposed to use the phrase "SID cancelled...[do this]" if they want you to climb unrestricted (or "STAR cancelled..." for an arrival). Otherwise, you've got to continue flying the published profile.

For example, I was descending into an airport the other week and given a clearance to descend to 5,000 feet. I was at 7,000 feet already with 20 miles to run to a waypoint with a 6,500' crossing restriction. I asked if he was cancelling the STAR and he said no. When he called back a minute later asking why I had not started the descent, I explain the altitude restriction...the response of "of yeah [pause]. STAR cancelled, fly present heading; descend to 5,000" was a great reminder that the controllers can forget the rules too...but it'll still be your fault if you break them!

[InSoMnIaC]

TSRA+ I think you are confusing the issue a little. Cancel SID/STAR means just that ( cancel it laterally and vertically) The controller should have said cleared 5000 unrestricted if that was what he intended (not cancel SID/STAR ). If they dont give you "unrestricted", then you should do as you did and comply with the 6500 restriction. If they say cancel sid/star they must issue another clearance (laterally aswell - as he did with you.." fly hdg...")

Almost Okay - imagine you are so heavy that you will reach the waypoint which has the at or below 7000 restriction at say exactly 7000 or maybe a little lower (ie you did not need to level off) it would make sense to just continue to fl200 as you have already complied with the 7000 or below restriction. The same applies if due to your aircrafts excess performance you will need to level off before reaching the waypoint at 7000. Btw in the example you gave, departure controller always says stop climb 7000 just to make sure you don't bust it. If that happens then you shouldn't climb above 7000 without further atc clearance (unless lost coms)

[Fratemate]

+TSRA,

Regarding the requirement to comply or not with altitude restrictions it is worth bearing in mind that some countries that have filed differences to ICAO 4444. In, for instance the UK and Japan, if ATC clear you to climb to 10000' with an SID altitude restriction of 7000', then their instruction automatically cancels that restriction unless they re-state it. This is obviously completely opposite to the majority of other places where the restrictions remain unless specifically cancelled.

[Intruder]

However, AFAIK that applies ONLY to reclearances given airborne. If cleared to FL200 on the ground, you are still obligated to follow all SID restrictions below FL200.