VFR...VFR...Oops..*gulp* Hello IFR... Literally Out of the 'Blue' (Sky pun intended)

[Exiled Martian]

Greetings Carbon Beings of This Celestial Heavenly Body!

I'm fairly new on here, so just trying to get more socially acquainted per se!So I been reading through alot of the threads in this sub-forum & appreciate the insightful gems that the sky demi-gods have been dropping left right & centre!

My Question stems on the back of a very eye opening personal experience which I'm glad enough to walk away from.....Twas a fine sunny morning in August 2013 in the Cotswold region when me & a buddy (both freshly faced new PPl'ers at the time ) of mine decided to embark on a long Nav trip from EGBO (Halfpenny Green) to Northwest Wales...i.e EGCK (Caernarfon). Plan was to fly a leg each to build some hours! After all the planning & deliberating, fuel contingencies, CB activities/Westerly fronts, lack of diversion options, tricky MSA's & a slightly stronger than usual headwind at cruising altitude (5500 AMSL) etc we decided to take the DA40 as opposed to relying on the prowess of the PA28, which was originally aicraft of our choice.

Took off from EGBO & all was well, like I said the sky was predominantly blue, with the exception of FEW/SCT Cu's & layered wisps of non chalant cloud types @ about 3500 or so. Levelled off in the cruise & as we were flying NW from EGBO towards Telford/Shawbury etc we switched over to London Info for basic service guidance. We were using the G1000 + the original planning on the map(that we did for the PA28), eventually my mate decided to pull out his tablet & populate our route on the old Skydemon & use that as a back up navigation tool instead of the map (which we kept in close proximity).

As we approached the desolate rural vicinities of Lake Bala & its many clusters of towering spot heights, the GPS enabled SkyDemon device picked up an ACTIVE NOTAM stating that this area was an AIAA (can't remember what altitudes were sanctioned off for apparent AIR Exercises taking place in the Valley area) & for that reason we had to decend as we were infringing upon said NOTAM. Now ahead of us lay some tricky moving weather with formidable gaps that we could possibly fly through & from there on we chose to deviate from track due to treacherous cloud formations ahead & decided we could snake through the visible VFR trenches that presented themselves below (I think we left 6500 & went down to 4000 due to NOTAM & also the grey clouds)

We circumnavigated the area rather well keeping Lake Bala on our right wing tip at all times, however our focus shifted to all these land masses growing in stature ahead tried to meander around the heavy clouds, being fresh PPL'ers (I only had 20P1 to my name my mate was more senior with ~60) & IMC'less didn't help our situations one bit! I was in heavy discussion with my Co-pilot buddy regarding our options....I decided enough was enough this area was a unpredicatble vortex of sort, I just could not believe just how FAST & VASTLY DIFFERENT the weather had switched on us from the time it took us to venture over from Sunny Cotswold to the rural high Welsh terrain (distance of like ~46NM travelled). Before we could execute the suggested 180 & head back, lo & behold a fast moving cloud from my 9 Oc'lock position had rapidly closed on me & engulfed us fully & everything was dull Grey....sight was lessened to ZERO & so the sense of hearing coupled with adrenaline overdrive made for some disturbing rattles being amplified in the cabin. The sound of pelting rain (anonymous precipitation?!) & other ad hoc sound effects did their job well in startling us into the most alert state of mind that we have ever been in. My mate was like :mad: :mad::mad: & was asking me to watch my speed as the VSI & ASI coupled with the Altitude tape were all doing a crazy choreographed instrument dance infront of me. The sight of which had me:eek:.

Remembering Ex19 in its true essence, I followed the rehearsed moves that had been drilled into me time & time again towards the back end of my PPL studies. This was the scariest turn I have ever made & to this day I remember looking at the TC Ball proving to be so slippery & volatile in its movement. Not to mention we were descending (from 4000 now at 3300) despite my valiant efforts to hold atittude & I kept a beady eye on the SD terrain data just to ensure we didn't drop below MSA (which was ~2900/3000 in that area) Since I was overloaded with controls I told my mate to get an RT call to London Info ASAP. God bless how they swiftly expedited us to London Control (Radar), it was evident from the undertone of our voices that we were caught in abit of MET horror story!

London gave us vectors & advice on how to deal with unexpected IMC & also gave us some info on being watchful with the instruments. The 180 turn I attempted didn't seem to resonate/ feel genuine at all i.e I could not tell or rather confirm the turn was successful...can't explain as it sort fo felt fake/conflicting.... but I remembered that ever so proverbial IFR Motto 'TRUST YOUR INSTURMENTS' & so kicked my vesitbular issues to the side & stayed faithful to the panel infront of me. After the longest/sweatiest 6 minutes in my life, I finally saw a hole to my 11 O'clock & a beam of light resonated through th eopening right onto us... I swear to this day I think of it as God poking a finger through the cloud just to offer us some holy divine assistance. Informed London Control I saw an opening , they advised to go for it & so I DID at the need of speed!!!

Poof! out the big bad CB we came & into a clear well lit familiar environment that at one point wondered if we were ever gonna see again! At the point the biggest sigh you will ever hear was exhaled...phewwwww & my mate was like :D . Spoke to London one final time told them we were VFR & in the clear. They kindly gave us several airport options to land at within close vicinity & I thanked them for all the help in an ETERNALLY grateful novice RT manner. I think they eventually realised just how bad we had it a few minutes back in the dark. Did a quick FREDA check to see all was well & a physical inspection outside just to make sure airframe was peripherally ok :ok: & pushed that throttle lever up & darted straight back home.

So yep, I was just interested if any of you seasoned aviators had any harrowing VFR turned IFR experiences to share? & if you could elaborate on how you dealt with situation at hand? The above ordeal had seriously made me respect weather & all its components to the highest degree, as before that all that theory in the ATPL MET books was simply gazed upon & ignorantly disregarded unde rthe guise of ' its not as bad as they say in the books surely' ...well lesson well learnt & appreciate the humbling to say the least!

P.s: Apologies for any typo's in advance as I have been typing this on my phone whilst I wait for my transport.... & I simply can't be asked to scroll up and double check the literature....:O

[OhNoCB]

Sounds like you coped quite well with the situation that you found yourself in. I don't have any stories to add but I would add the following:

Without seeing the NOTAM, an AIAA is not a prohibited area, it is merely a warning that there is often a lot going on in this area. Some people regard this as a waste of ink because you should be alert at all times.

I am a big fan of using technology and GPS, and Skydemon's NOTAM feature is great. However you should not be seeing the NOTAM for the first time once airborne. I would expect (as I do myself) anyone to check and read NOTAMs before each flight, that way you would have already had a plan of what to do and it would not have caught you off guard.

Lastly, let's say that it was not an AIAA but was a class A TMA or something. Airspace busts can be embarrassing, they can also be costly. However they 99.9% of the time won't cost you your life. Flying into IMC untrained and unprepared for it is much more deadly. Rather be embarrassed than dead.

As I said though, this is just food for thought and my own opinions, and I think you did well to revert as much as possible to the small amount of IMC training you had in EX19. I just believe that it would have been safer to avoid the situation!

[Pace]

EM

I know that area well from years past and it is very usual even in good weather to find cloud buildups around Snowdonia and the line of mountains there.
Usually by the time you get to Caernarfon your back in the clear but without IMC Training you did the right thing doing a gradual course reversal back to where you knew there was better weather.

With IMC capability overhead Caernarfon with a number of verifications amf an oversea let down. But I am sure you would have got the actuals and TAFS for the airports there?

If you see cloud build ups you can always route up to the north and fly lower level following the coast line at a lower level.
But it shows the importance of reading the weather ahead and not allowing things to develop out of your limits by pushing on hoping for better

Pace

[sapperkenno]

I bet if you had been flying the PA28 without all the gadgetry of the DA40, and had left Skydemon at home (not knocking it, just making a point) you would never have pressed on...

[Johnm]

An interesting story despite the flowery language!

There are two lessons to be learned from this. First it's important to know what the various marks on the charts actually mean. Had the OP and his mate understood what an AIAA was they would never have descended to cloud level in the first place.

Second he and his chum should have had all of the NOTAMs for the area before ever they took flight and should know how to read NOTAMs and in particular the applicable times and status.

On the plus side they handled unexpected IMC with limited instrument skills pretty well and they've given everyone a timely reminder that some basic instrument skill is important for every pilot.

[BEagle]

So, Exiled Martian, have you or your mate started an IR(R) course yet?

AIAAs are a confusing irrelevance. The area near Bala simply indicates that, if the RAF can afford to fly them, you might meet the odd Hawk from Valley. There's nothing like the traffic there used to be in that area though.

[BackPacker]

I wonder if it was actually a NOTAM about the AIAA that popped up. The way SkyDemon handles popups on airspace, P/R/D areas and such is pretty similar to the way it handles NOTAM information. So all SkyDemon may have done is warn you about "airspace ahead". (Does anyone know if there really was a NOTAM about the AIAA about?)

Nevertheless, an AIAA should not come as a surprise. They are clearly marked on the paper chart as well.

Before we could execute the suggested 180 & head back, lo & behold a fast moving cloud from my 9 Oc'lock position had rapidly closed on me & engulfed us fully & everything was dull Grey....sight was lessened to ZERO

Clouds don't move independently and on their own free will. Clouds normally sit still in a (moving) block of air. And if they are moving within that block of air, then the only way they're moving is up due to convection or oreographic lift. The only thing that's really moving within that (moving) block of air is you. At 100+ knots. So you can't say that "the cloud from my 9 o'clock had rapidly closed in". Rather, you flew into a cloud that was just sitting there, fat, dumb and happy.

During your PPL training, did you ever fly close to cloud? I never did - clouds were scary things, to stay well away from. It's only when I started flying aerobatics that we occasionally flew at altitudes with scattered clouds, simply to play with them. It's very good practice because it makes you appreciate how fast the aircraft is really traveling. Something that you don't appreciate while flying in clear blue skies. (One of the most memorable exercises was to approach the top of a cloud, about 100 feet below the top, and barrel roll the aircraft over the top of the cloud without touching it. Would not recommend that in a DA40 though.)

Combine this with another thing. Cruise flying at 5000' or so, you quickly settle into what I call "airliner mode". You only make very small corrections to the controls with your fingertips, unconsciously trying to avoid even a ripple in your cup of coffee. When you encounter clouds, there comes a point when you need to switch to "fighter jet mode". You need to grab the stick with your full fist, making turns with 45 or even 60 degrees of bank, and pitch changes of maybe 20 degrees up or down, to stay clear of clouds. Especially if you're in a layer of SCT with no way out up or down.

If you don't switch from 'airline' to 'fighter jet' mode quickly enough, because you don't appreciate how fast you are really traveling yourself, you will find yourself in cloud very quickly. So an exercise "playing with the clouds" may well be very useful in this respect.

I remember looking at the TC Ball proving to be so slippery & volatile in its movement.

Did you ever do Ex19 in a glass cockpit? Because I feel you've been watching the wrong instruments, possibly due to an overload of data.

Just as with steam driven instruments, the primary instrument is the artificial horizon. The only thing you need to do is keep the dot on the horizon, and bank about 20 degrees. Leave the power setting alone and this should get you into a nice, stable, rate 1 turn. If you're in a TCu or CB, ignore speed, turn and altitude variations - they will eventually more or less cancel out. (With "ignore" I mean that it's perfectly OK to keep track of the variations, to see if they're not getting too extreme. But minor variations do not require a control correction. Just keep the aircraft in the same attitude.)

And in a DA40, the slip ball is all over the place even if you don't keep your feet on the pedals in a steady cruise. Unless my bum is telling me that I'm seriously flying out of balance, I'd ignore the slip ball altogether. Especially when overwhelmed by the circumstances.

Anyway, well done. Your PPL is a licence to learn and it seems you learned loads today. It might be worth talking things over with an instructor once the emotions have settled down, and adrenaline levels are back to normal. I think there are a lot more lessons to be learned from this.

[RTN11]

Many of us have been in this situation, and found our way out, and ultimately learnt the lesson.

As above though, you shouldn't of been distracted by the AIAA. Things like this always happen when the holes line up. If you'd known what the AIAA was then you would have been happy just flying through it, and this would never of started. If you can catch these chains early on then you prevent the far worse situation you ended up in.

You did the correct manoeuvre though, that's all that can be asked, and you called for help, something many people forget about.

One last anal correction, you went into IMC, not IFR, they are very different things and I hope you understand the difference.

[Tolka]

I think that it is always helpful if VFR only pilots flying aircraft with an autopilot become fully acquainted with its use. In this case the OP mentioned that it was a G1000 equipped aircraft. This comes with an autopilot. If the pilot then inadvertently flies into cloud turning on the autopilot will immediately put it into roll made which will keep the wings level. Then if you put it into heading mode and turn the bug you can get the autopilot to do the 180 degree turn and fly the aircraft out of cloud without the risk of the pilot losing control. Its a good back up strategy.

[alexbrett]

In this case the OP mentioned that it was a G1000 equipped aircraft. This comes with an autopilotNot necessarily - one of the aircraft at the aero club I fly with is a Cessna 172 with a G1000, but it doesn't have the autopilot, as apparently it's an optional thing that the club didn't want to spend the money on...

[Ridger]

Well, hindsight wisdom overload notwithstanding, this is a gem of a story. These things are frequently followed by a debrief with St Peter and the AAIB would need to dust off the Ouji board to get this kind of account.

Blood well done for surviving and learning from it, and even more so for sharing the story, it illustrates how quickly things can go from being comfortable to terrifying.

[fisbangwollop]

As said earlier an AIAA (Area of Intense Aerial Activity) is just that, it is not a prohibited area it is just a warning to keep an extra good lookout. That said even if it were class "A" airspace, if the option to avoid was to go IMC and probably die please take the easy option and infringe CAS, if you do I suggest you squawk 7700, this will show on every radar "SOS"and any controller working traffic in CAS will realise you have a problem and make every effort to vector his traffic around you.:cool:

[RTN11]

That said even if it were class "A" airspace, if the option to avoid was to go IMC and probably die please take the easy option and infringe CAS

Great advice, probably the best thing to take away from this.

Of course you should be aware of CAS and plan accordingly, but a lot of people miss the whole point of CAS. It is to create a known traffic environment, but not to the point where a low level PPL is forced into IMC without any experience, by squawking 7700, you will immediately pop up, so rather than just a very unpredictable 7000 wandering into CAS, you are a clear emergency situation, and the controllers can deal with this accordingly.

By the time you're in IMC, especially with hills around, you are in real trouble, and CAS is then the least of your worries.

[funfly]

1. Got into a whiteout very very quickly.
2. Did a 360 level turn.
3. Came out of white out to realise that the turn was anything but 360 and level, glimpses of cows in fields, pulse rate on the high side.
4. Scurried back to where I had come from.
5. Started the IMC training straight away.

[Ridger]

By the time you're in IMC, especially with hills around, you are in real trouble, and CAS is then the least of your worries.

Totally agree. The two controllers I know would much rather vector Bloggs out of trouble than have to accomodate the air ambulance. Keeping calm enough to think clearly when you know you're without paddle is of course the hard part!

Spending an hour (at least) per year, foggles donned, with an FI is worth its weight in gold.

[chrisN]

Two points from a glider pilot:

OP was going W into Wales/mountains with a head wind. I suggest learn a bit about mountain wave. Do not go low over mountains when it is windy – and it does not take much wind to give sink greater than the climb rate of a light aircraft, in some circumstances.

Clouds can indeed move relative to the airmass, in wave. Don’t know if it happened here, but it is quite possible for a lenticular cloud in one’s 9 o’clock to suddenly grow and engulf one. (Lenticulars don’t usually have precipitation in my experience, but I wouldn’t rule it out.)

Otherwise, agree with those who say stay in clear air and tell ATC you have to, if it’s CAS and you need to. There is an overriding rule that you do what you need to for safety (even if you have to explain afterwards).

Hope that helps.

Chris N.

[glum]

Funfly:

"3. Came out of white out to realise that the turn was anything but 360 and level, glimpses of cows in fields, pulse rate on the high side"

Is this because you didn't look at your instruments through overload, or because by habit you were only trained to look outside / fly by feel / ignore instruments?

Personally I find I'm constantly glancing inside to check the VSI and Alitmeter during my turns. I suspect this is because having been an avionics tech for 25 years I'm so used to these instruments being there and know what they can provide in terms of a reference point.

[Exiled Martian]

@OhNoCB - Agreed it would have been better to avoid the situation in the first place, which is what I eventually sought out to do, but it was a case of leaving it alil too late & misjudging the severity of the weather situation. Had the weather been bleak/ poor from the get -go at EGBO, then I wouldn't have dared attempted doing such a long winded trip so early in my post PPL era, but alas deception of the Wx at homebase & within the surrounding local vicinity lead to mass enthusiasm & eagerness to get going far out West. By the way I did check the enroute NOTAMS situation via the NATS (http://http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html) homepage as taught & the AIAA was actively NOTAM'd as per the SD prompt we got in the air. And it was for that very reason we had to descend, otherwise we would have never left the comforts of FL65+ in such area with bad Wx awaiting us ahead. Lesson well learnt & lucky stars counted upon landing:)

@Pace - I'm glad you familiar with that neck of the woods so to speak & since then I have visited EGCK 3 times & you are spot on with the spontaneous build up of cloud/ bad WX en route there. Weirdly enough upon landing back I did ring up EGCK to advice of our shortcoming & out of curiosity asked them about local WX & they said they were showing good Viz & more or less were CAVOK along the coast, so that had me like :{ for a minute. You're correct WX developed all too quickly & left me gobsmacked & hesitant, in hindsight I wish I had turned back earlier instead of trying to attempt a heroic Indiana Jones style pursuit through those VMC tunnels & openings:O

@sapperkenno - Ha you probably right there mate...:}

@Johnm - Thanks...yes I believe our NOTAM interpreting skills were somewhat flawed in that sense.. its evident we descended due to Notam depicting some air exercises were taking place at the time & we were clearly aware of this but seemed to had forgotten about it up until SD popped up with the warning...& coupled with the crazy WX ahead it was merely a Swiss cheese scenario taking shape :E

@BEagle No not yet at that phase of training yet. I'm in the midst of hour building at the moment, on the back of conquering some really hard ATPL's doing it all distance learning. Aiming to commence my CPL/IR late March/early April hopefully ( also my bank account is somewhat injured at the moment lol) & thanks for the details on the normal situation that tend to previal in the AIAA down there :ok:

@BackPacker- You are correct because as stated there was an actual NOTAM in place, I simply didn't deviate due to it being an AIAA. No I did not partake or endure any sort of close call cloud frolicking during my PPL training, in fact we were instructed to shun away from them at all costs.... as if they were Dementors & we teenage quidditch playing wizards. That barrel role exercise you mentioned sounds overly cool in an aeorbatically certified aircraft.. & yes you don't realise or rather notice speed in the vastness of blue skies until you encounter some fluff per se:eek:. So true! The slip indicator/ ball equivalent in a DA40 is mad sensitive, I know this now but at the time I had very few Glass cockpit hours so still flew the aircraft as if it were a Piper/ Cessna to some extent. Lastly many thanks on the advice given in your post mate...especially the part about flying in a TCU/CB predicament!

@RTN11 - Thanks for making me feel less stupid in that sense & gracias for the accolade on my brilliant Houdini like escapism;) also apologies on the misuse of terminology...I'm still getting to grips with the appropriate aviation jargon/lingo so bear with me on that one!

@Tolka - AlexBrett hit that one straight on the head, my aircraft did not have capable AP functionality & at the time I wasn't well versed with the whole G1000 interface etc.

@Ridger - Thanks mate, I was on the receiving end of a lot of peptalk (& some light B*llocking) form the Old boys at the airfield. This was all after I had landed & brewed a cup of coffee to calm the nerves so to speak:\

@fisbangwollop - Gracias on the plausible advice, Prior to entering the zone I was vigilant as it is just got caught up in really sour weather after evading the NOTAM that's all, nut I'll keep that transponder advice in mind...just in case I were to find myself in the soup & ill equipped to deal with it confidently:uhoh:

@funfly - Thanks for sharing....that out of cloud description gives me a really thrilling visual picture in my head! Haha I see the 'scurrying back home' correlation is quite a STRONG reaction in these predicaments. I can fully relate on that one, mate, also can't wait till I'm IR certified...up until then my flying is confined to the prevailing weather systems that surround me.

@ChrisN - Appreciate the insight into flying close to high land areas on a windy day. Yes that cloud that swallowed me did indeed move towards me..or so my optical abilities lead me to believe..but Backpacker could have been right in the sense that I was cruising too fast (115-120+) in the DA40 & it was me who flew into the cloud as opposed to it coming to me....illusions & naivety eyyy:}

[englishal]

I am not a big believer in Unexpected IMC. In my 14 years of flying, I have never had an unintentional "VFR into IMC" experience, and I think this is because people tend to push on when they can see the weather is turning crap. Turn around early, go home, fly another day.....I think it all boils down to bad decision making, and maybe the PPL should focus more on decision making because the number of PPLs I have come across who have "flown into cloud" is amazing. Even a mate of mine, on his QXC ended up above cloud and had to spiral down through a very small hole.....hmmm......

[Fuji Abound]

Englishal

I am sort of with you but it is easy to get caught out early on in your flying "career" because you don't yet have the experience to realise what is happening (as perhaps this story demonstrates). I appreciate you should, and I appreciate you can almost always see the IMC coming, but as this story also demonstrates it is easy to become overloaded with other concerns (in this case the NOTAM) and before you know it you are further in than you would like,

and then when you have really racked up the hours the other scenario is the temptation to scud run because you think you have the skills to deal with it - more often than not you do, but sometimes .. .. ..

I quite enjoy a bit of scud running, it can be quite fun to stay low level working your way around the landscape but remaining visual - the trick I hope is to know when to bail, and that is when having an instrument rating is so useful. Actually you usually dont need to fall back on it, but it needs careful planning and a good awareness of the weather. I hasten to add I am not generally recommending this course of action.

[englishal]

I agree about the Scud running. I remember a flight around Cornwall at 500 AGL....BUT when it got, too dangerous (lowering base, murky vis, antenna up to 2000 somewhere ahead), I climbed to 4500 and went home IFR. I was only doing it to see if I could. I felt much more relaxed at 4500 in the cloud but not going to hit anything! (PS this was pre-Skydemon and no moving map GPS).

[Pace]

Scud running is not something to be taken lightly and certainly not to be taken lightly without solid IMC capable pilot and aircraft!

i remember only too well flying a twin to Inverness and landing there after finding a gap in a line of storm clouds crossing west to East.

I landed with hailstones the size of golfballs on the runway.
knowing from sat pictures that the weather finished to the west at the end of Loch Ness I elected to fly down the lake low level and then route down the islands in clear weather.

Halfway down Loch Ness I was forced down to 200 feet above the lake and scud cloud appeared below the aircraft. I held a heading over the lake and climbed into IMC to the MSA bursting out into the clear some 25-30 NM further on.

Scud running is a risky occupation at best! Without solid instrument capability its high risk!

Pace

[OhNoCB]

EM,

Are you saying that it was not NOTAM'd as active but a NOTAM came alive when you were already in the air? If so I think (given the following events) that it was unlucky that you had mobile internet at that point to give you that update. I also want to put to you in case you hadn't thought of it before, if you had have departed after seeing no NOTAMs to affect, and had not have had Skydemon (or alternative) with you, what would have happened differently?

[CISTRS]

I finally saw a hole to my 11 O'clock & a beam of light resonated through th eopening right onto us... I swear to this day I think of it as God poking a finger through the cloud just to offer us some holy divine assistance. Informed London Control I saw an opening , they advised to go for it & so I DID at the need of speed!!!

I don't think that I would have consulted London Control first. Just go for the VMC and inform them later.
Aviate, navigate, communicate.

Well done.

[Tim Dawson]

AIAA are not the kind of area that are activated and deactivated by NOTAM. What exactly did the NOTAM say? Is it still there?

[Exiled Martian]

I am not a big believer in Unexpected IMC. In my 14 years of flying, I have never had an unintentional "VFR into IMC" experienceIn that case I am in awe & really applaud your staunch Airmanship skills, that have so far helped you to elude bothersome situations up there & I'm in agreement about decision making skills being made a pivotal talking point to all newbie pilots. IMO it should have its own PPL exam to boot...I've been a right avid YouTube scholar when in need of answers to my aviation problems, so yes I have been watching several decision making videos in form of seminars/ webinars / tutorials courtesy of the FAA lot across the pond, gotta admire their thriving/insightful GA community which in comparison to ours is well advanced/ evolved :D

Scud running is not something to be taken lightly and certainly not to be taken lightly without solid IMC capable pilot and aircraft!Never had the pleasure of Scud running so far...& I don't think I'd fancy it one bit without some form of proper instrumental rapport.

Are you saying that it was not NOTAM'd as active but a NOTAM came alive when you were already in the air?
what would have happened differently? Yes I believe the NOTAM came alive in the air, on the actual paperwork prior to departure I don't think it flagged to be current/active & I guess form thereon, the ill-fated decision to pull out the tablet & using SD landed us in hot water....so in that sense things would have panned out differently indeed, for we wouldn't have realised that the air exercise NOTAM was active (Unless RT'd by London Info who sometimes tend to warn you regarding /P/D/R areas etc) & would have probably stayed high & comfortable crossing that particular area:E


AIAA are not the kind of area that are activated and deactivated by NOTAM. What exactly did the NOTAM say? Is it still there? Sorry to have used loose language, I believe the NOTAM was in the actual area... which was an AIAA (on the half mill chart had the bordering to suggest that it was an AIAA etc).

I also want to apologise for referencing the wrong month in which this incident occured. Just had a look at my logbook last night & the actual specific date was 18th August 2013 as opposed to September 2013 (made a point of editing OP to reflect the right month). My memory is hazy so don't quote me on this but I think the NOTAM advised of some air exercises being conducted by the military in that area & a certain levels of altitude was cordoned off. In fact now that I have the date, is there any website where I'll be able to pull up historical NOTAM info archived, in order to find out just what exactly was going on that day? FWIW I departed at 10:50 local time that day & returned for 12:25pm.

[Fuji Abound]

As to scud running and a discussion between more experienced pilots I dont believe it is necessarily dangerous any more than some other aspects of aviation. Like so many things it requires a good understanding of the weather, the terrain, and your limits. I do agree it is important to have an escape and instrument capability is a very good escape.

I find it interesting how often scud behaves as you would expect - you can predict with a very high degree of confidence where the terrain and cloud base will close up, you can predict the direction from which the weather will close in and, more importantly, the direction from which it will open up, you can predict what is likely to come out of the scud so avoiding those golf ball hail storms but you can only do so by being very familiar with the topography and the weather on the day. There is no substitute for a careful self brief. the consequence of that self brief maybe that there is an unpredictable element (what might fall from the cloud base for example) and that in itself might be enough to change to plan B.

We tend to think of scud running as being risky, dangerous, to be avoided at all cost - but one man's scud is another man's good overcast. I recall thinking twice about even departing with a solid overcast of less than 2,000 feet.

So it is a skill, a skill to be honed, to be kept current, at times a very useful skill and lest we forget a technique that many pilot's have used very safely for a very long time perhaps because whatever their capabilities they chose to fly an aircraft with no instrument capability.

Use the skill unwisely and just like the unskilled aerobatic pilot it is quite capable of ruining your day.

[Pace]

Fuji

For me scud running is when an attempt is made to fly VFR in minimal VFR conditions which would preclude the 2000 foot cloud base ;) unless you were flying the Alps!
as with any flying it is important to always have an out which could be a 180 back to where you have come from not so clever if there is terrain low cloud an d poor visibility as part of the cocktail!
the other most obvious out is to chuck it away and climb to a safe altitude! in a straight line if you are very sure of what lies ahead or a spiral climb if in doubt!
that itself holds hazards as if you are spiralling in 50 kt winds the chances are you maybe carried where you do not want to be.
so a good wind awareness is important either spiralling or in a straight line especially when you are in IMC below the MSA.
it is vitally important to have good spatial awareness and to be sure where you are.
I have had approved departures which include spiral climbs to 10K before setting course in high terrain airports so not such a big deal if they are contained

Pace

[chrisN]

Is there not a third “out” in some circumstances – land below if there is somewhere landable?

(In a glider, I would have to, if forced down by lowering clouds, no lift, and terrain too high to get over.) I appreciate that this is very much less desirable in power than 1 or 2 above, if either of those is viable. But may be better to try than dying.

Chris N

[Fuji Abound]

For me scud running is when an attempt is made to fly VFR in minimal VFR conditions which would preclude the 2000 foot cloud base http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif unless you were flying the Alps!

Pace

My previous point exactly - one man's scud running is not another mans.

Where do you draw the line? Are you happy with 1,000 feet between base and terrain, 500 feet, I know you get the picture. That is the problem with these generilsations, what you or I think of as scud running might be very different from another pilots. Even the aircraft might be a factor. Scud running at 200 knots is one skill set, different and more challenging than at 80 knots.

Short of fog it is surprising what conditions you might enjoy a scud run along coastal beaches. :)

[airpolice]

funfly wrote:


1. Got into a whiteout very very quickly.
2. Did a 360 level turn.
3. Came out of white out to realise that the turn was anything but 360 and level, glimpses of cows in fields, pulse rate on the high side.
4. Scurried back to where I had come from.
5. Started the IMC training straight away.

I suppose that if you had just rolled out halfway through the 360, things might have got a lot better for you..........

[Fuji Abound]

;)

Navigationally challenged

[stevelup]

It seems to me that the root cause of the original poster's situation was twofold.

1) Not doing a proper NOTAM briefing before departure - I suspect the flight time was not set in SkyDemon.

2) Overreacting to an informational NOTAM. It's unlikely that this was actually restricted airspace - it was probably just warning of intense activity. That being the case, just keeping a good lookout would have been preferable to entering IMC!

[piperboy84]

"Halfway down Loch Ness I was forced down to 200 feet above the lake and scud cloud appeared below the aircraft. I held a heading over the lake and climbed into IMC to the MSA bursting out into the clear some 25-30 NM further on."

I went from one end of loch ness to the other last winter and went thru what seemed liked 3 different weather systems in a few hours, I thought to myself it's bad enough being here today in my boat doing 25 knots flying down here would be terrifying

[Exiled Martian]

Greetings Fellow Lift Junkies.....Hope all is well & boy does time fly fast & Straight and Level mind you :}

Due to high bouts of nostalgia (& recent euphoria) I just had to bump this gem of an experience & once again, I THANK all you guys for offering your suggestions & advise as to how the situation could have been better remedied. Hopefully new budding PPL'ers will be reading this & taking notes :8 So I have been on a social hiatus due to various personal/professional developments in my life, but I'd just like to update everyone in here that I've come a very long way from making this (CPL/IR ascertained late 2014) mistake as a juvenile PPL'er & from time to time I still candidly tend to stare at this entry in my logbook with a wry smile on my face.

I was all set, gearing up to commence my FI rating this year, seeing as ALL my attempts at trying to secure a RHS somewhere had been proving futile since October last year. That is until I saw an email from the CAE nestled in my inbox requesting my CV for FR to review. Fast forward the tape & I was very very lucky (i emphasise luck because some people wait years for this chance to prove their self worth) to be have been invited by FR & passed my assessment in Dublin & have recently received news that I'm set to commence TR come April/May. I don't know if this was divine intervention/ lady luck taking a liking or god merely getting around to answering my emails, but yes 8 years of disciplined saving & 3 years of Modular blood,sweat tears are finally about to be avenged accordingly. I cannot explain the type of feeling that once experiences when that email confirming my TR date set everything in stone....Childhood career dream finally coming to fruition....here is to bigger better things in 2015 (Happy belated NY):ok: To all you hopefuls and dreamers out there best of luck to on your aviation endeavours :ok:

[cats_five]

Weather over the mountains is often completely different to the flatlands, especially downwind. You were also flying far enough for it to change considerably - to fly into completely different air masses.


Also some mountain wave is possible even if it wasn't on the met office briefing charts.

[ChickenHouse]

A nice discussion ... I remember when taking my PPL lessons, there was a chunk of hours dedicated to IMC exercise, I believe it was min 3 typ 5 hours - cant remember wether this was regulation or school specific. But, it was a great thing to deal with this already in training and when we did our first cloud breaking at OVC006 in traffic pattern ... omg.

I had two times in my flying career up to today, where similar happened. First was an unexpected weather change leaving me in the middle of nowhere with almost no sight. Second was a flight in spread 1 weather, where a slight sunlight variation brought me into clouds on downwind at 900ft - no runway to see, but me on the radio saying "yes, I do have field in sight" (actually having vis almost zero) - wouldnt do that today, but found myself be trained well enough to not fear the situation.

[FleetFlyer]

I can't resist chiming in here and saying well done to the OP on getting a job, and to Englishal(if you still hang out here), you're dead right about 'inadvertent' flight into IMC.

I don't hold an IR and I have flown into IMC several times. Each time it was my decision and not an accident. Of course the decision to do so was questionable, but I think hardly anybody accidentally flies into cloud. I don't think I'm alone in consciously taking a decision to temporarily expose myself to much greater risk.

I also scud run, and have flown gliders in cloud. I'm very conscious of the elevated risk profile and only take those extra risks when solo.

[ChickenHouse]

I stopped scud running when flying in Northern Europe after they built all that crazy windmills, it is not fun to scud at 500ft when windcraft blades are going up to 700-800ft ...

[Sir Niall Dementia]

A good long read through the GA AAIB reports for the last thirty years will give you an insight into some of the perils of scud running. There's plenty of bent aeroplanes, pilots and passengers written up in there.


I wouldn't mind betting that if some of those pilots were able to communicate by any means other than a Ouija board they would loudly voice the opinion that scud running is really rather daft.


A few years ago I heard a pilot in trouble on her QXC. She was in cloud and scared stiff. What followed was a master class in controlling by East Midlands approach. She very sensibly called for help as things went wrong and landed (beautifully) to applause from the 12 jets all waiting at the hold to go. As someone said earlier, when the weather goes wrong controlled airspace is the least of your worries, and no controller or pilot should really have to listen to the last panicking radio calls of a pilot knowing they are about to die. (I have, and I never want to again)


If you think its' all going wrong it probably already has. Get help early, don't be frightened to tell someone you need that help. If you have a second radio keep it tuned to 121.5, there are people on the end of that frequency with remarkable equipment and abilities, but they do like you to call as early into your problem as you can.


Some of us on this forum have just got licenses, some hold ATPLs with thousands of commercial and GA hours, I've got just over 15 000 hours, a fairly well defined sense of self preservation, and enough knowledge to know that if I feel I'm working hard then something, somewhere is wrong. That sixth sense comes with age and experience, but if a little voice is saying "something ain't right here chief" listen to it and get out of where you are. That voice doesn't tend to lie.


SND