Air India at Jaipur last night

[AtomKraft]

Only heard sketchy details of the incident, but an Air India A320 had an eventful arrival at JAI last night.

It was a fog divert from Delhi. JAI wx was forecast to be ok, but when they arrived on their diversion, the place had fogged out.

Low on fuel, they had no option but to declare an emergency and make some sort of approach ( an auto land maybe?, I know not).

Anyway a runway excursion ensued ( or they touched down off to the side) which burst a tyre and damaged the undercarriage and a wing.

This shut the airport until the following afternoon as it was too foggy to even recover the aircraft from the runway.

Only facts for sure are that the airport was shut, it was an AI 320 and there was at least a tyre out.

No doubt the correct version will emerge soon, only posting this as seen nothing else anywhere.

No lives lost or injuries, so a happy outcome for all. Can't have been fun for the crew though.

[cyrilroy21]

Quite an eventful day yesterday

Thanks to the Air India aircraft Jaipur airport got shut down

SpiceJet flight SG 256 from Goa - Delhi had diverted to Jaipur as well thanks to the low visibility in Delhi

After diverting to jaipur finding the airport closed they went back to Delhi this time squawking 7700 and declaring fuel emergency

[LiveryMan]

Yup, aircraft appears to have gone agricultural and clipped its left wing against trees.

One wonders how AI will use this to extort cash out of Boeing? :8

[Joles]

Jaipur: Air India plane tyre bursts, left wing damaged - News Oneindia (http://news.oneindia.in/india/plane-tyre-bursts-flight-ops-hit-at-jaipur-airport-1371291.html)

Quote : One wonders how AI will use this to extort cash out of Boeing?

AI will talk to AIRBUS ! Its a 320-231

BTW what is interesting is that this a/c has double bogie landing gear aparently this was unique for AI... so the tyre going off would be quite an interesting sequence of events

[ManaAdaSystem]

In Europe this would have been a non event. A fuel emergency followed by an autoland in weather below CAT 1.
In India, an autoland on a CAT 1 runway is not the smartest thing to do. On most ILS approaches the LOC is so unstable you nearly get sea sick before you land.
This was most likely an autoland in below CAT 1 weather that ended bad. Or they tried to hand fly in low vis conditions.
Either way, they quickly ran out of options. Not a nice situation to be in.

[Hartington]

Joles, I think you missed the sarcasm.

[7x7]

In India, an autoland on a CAT 1 runway is not the smartest thing to doManaAda, while a agree in principal with where you're coming from with that comment, at first glance, and with what little information we have to hand so far, the crew seem to have made the best of a very nasty situation. A slightly bent aeroplane with no injuries to pax, crew or anyone on the ground seems to me to the best outcome possible for a situation like that.

[wrafter]

This in from the Mumbai Mirror: "the plane, commissioned in 1991, was Air India's oldest serving aircraft."

An Air India pilot on Sunday made a 'blind landing' in Jaipur in zero visibility, saving the lives of 173 passengers on board.

The Air India flight 890 from Guwahati was scheduled to land in Delhi, but was diverted to Jaipur as the Indira Gandhi Airport was shut due to heavy fog.

Unfortunately for pilot Captain Jalal Vats, who had by then been flying for more than 12 hours, visibility at Jaipur's Sanganer Airport was also zero.

Suspecting he may not have enough fuel for any more detours, Captain Vats decided to land the flight using the Instrument Landing System, which helps with landing in low visibility.

As the Airbus 320 type aircraft landed off the centre line of the runway, it careened onto unpaved surface. As the pilot tried to correct course, the left wing hit an unidentified object.

Three images > Miracle in Jaipur - Mumbai Mirror (http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/cover-story/Miracle-in-Jaipur/articleshow/28485775.cms)

[hkgmjq]

"Civil Aviation Safety Advisory Committee member Capt Mohan Ranganathan said several factors may have contributed to the accident.

"There is fatigue, stress due to zero visibility and the knowledge of being low on fuel," said Ranganathan. "Under these conditions, the heart rate of the pilot would have been extremely high and the body would have experienced sugar depletion, resulting in momentary disorientation."

He did not rule out a system error. He said if the pilot was on ILS and was following a localiser (an instrument that provides runway guidance), and there was a signal error, the pilot may gotten wrong directions."

[hifly787]

Unconfirmed reports now say the autopilot was knocked off at 100 feet to touchdown.

[ManaAdaSystem]

ManaAda, while a agree in principal with where you're coming from with that comment, at first glance, and with what little information we have to hand so far, the crew seem to have made the best of a very nasty situation. A slightly bent aeroplane with no injuries to pax, crew or anyone on the ground seems to me to the best outcome possible for a situation like that.

I agree. My comment re autoland in India was of a general nature. Even CAT 3 in Delhi has a fluctuating LOC.

[sitigeltfel]

On inspection, ground officials found that the aircraft had run out of fuel, which turned out to be blessing in disguise. Directorate General of Civil Aviation officials said since the aircraft had been airborne for over 5 hours, it had run out of fuel by the time of landing, preventing it from exploding on impact. Nice to know that empty tanks can't explode :rolleyes:

[Hotel Tango]

Surprised that no one has commented on the fact that an aircraft which departed with legal fuel reserves very nearly didn't make it. Yes, it WAS because of unfortunate and unexpected circumstances. Nevertheless, a very good example to rub into all those "minimum legal fuel" beancounters' faces that extra reserves for mum isn't such a bad idea.

[ManaAdaSystem]

"India" and "minimum fuel" in the same sentence gives me immediate diarrhea.

[latetonite]

Happy to learn the Indians still try to make a hero out of you after a stupidity.

[Dynamite1]

Would like to see our smartypants bring one in when sudden unexpected fog zeroes all the landing strips on his FMC.

[latetonite]

And how would that unexpectedly happen?

[fatbus]

Dynamite1 Would like to see our smartypants bring one in when sudden unexpected fog zeroes all the landing strips on his FMC.


What were you trying to say
Your inexperience shines through

[AtomKraft]

Well, Delhi being socked in at this time of year is a surprise to no Air India pilot.

Same for JAI.

As far as I can tell, they don't do the ' destination unworkable, so get two workable diversions' routine as we do in the UK.

In India your dest has to be forecast to be ok, or you mustn't go.

Fuel policy in India is different. There's always 'holding' fuel. ( good!)
But there's never 'final reserve' fuel. (Not so good....)

So launch with min fuel, and you might think you have holding fuel. But if you divert, then hold, you land 'tanks dry' as there's no final reserve.

[latetonite]

A captain always has the final word about the fuel.

I wonder where all the other planes with destination Delhi crashed that day. I guess there must have been quite a few who were not able to land there.

We live in a time where people fly cruising levels solely derived from the FMC, and gas up planes with numbers found on flight plans.

And we are not speaking of a loco, but a national airline.

Then if the story is true, that, once in an emergency, and the decision was made to land in this weather, the pilot made a manual landing, I have no more words at all.

[3MTA3]

JAI is only 15 minutes away from DEL and you can easily hear the ATIS while in DEL area. And why accepting JAI as an alternate when the 2 cities are close and usually encounter the same weather phenomenon at the same time? I always refuse for example Cochin as an alternate for Trivandrum if it's a stormy day. It takes 5 minutes to call the operations and file another alternate and I never was questioned about it....

[latetonite]

Distance DEL-JAI is 144 nm. I used to accept Cochin as alternate for TRV, but with enough fuel for Madras.

[underfire]

http://i40.tinypic.com/k0swv4.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

Distance DEL-JAI is 144 nm

JAI is only 15 minutes away from DEL
In a Concorde, maybe...

[latetonite]

Give it a slack for departure SID, awaiting clearance(sic) and a full procedure at JAI, you are looking at 35 minutes or so. I reckon 1600 kgs of fuel. Do not know when the lights go on in the plane, but my lights would be flashing way before that.

[Super VC-10]

Apparently the aircraft clipped a tree at the side of the runway. :}

Accident: Air India A320 at Jaipur on Jan 5th 2014, runway excursion on emergency landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=46e20f3a&opt=0)

[3MTA3]

If you fly at Mach .75 (Airbus cruising speed), how long does it take to cover 140NM? Do the maths and you might be surprised to find that you don't need a Concorde to cover the distance in less than 20 minutes:E

[latetonite]

@3MTA3:

I almost believed you were a real pilot! My excuses.

[Joles]

Sorry Hartington, got a bit carried away ! Touche !:oh:

No information on flight fuelling rules at AI but it is NOT common to have the SAME weather at JAI as DEL which is why since time immemorial flights have waited out at JAI for the fog in DEL to go away. Points about conditions being known at time of take off are well taken and same about alternate choices, but the airline that appears to be run more by bureaucrats than flyers can and does have strange rules so am not surprised if said Capn might have been bound by some other factors. Having said that read this, also reported by the Mumbai Mirror " http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Hero-pilot-averted-another-major-disaster-moments-after-Jaipur-blind-landing/articleshow/28530513.cms"

I do feel sorry for those poor people who have to be in the cockpit of an AI aricraft.. See this for example
Woman pilot makes skilful emergency landing after plane loses nose wheel - The Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/woman-pilot-makes-skilful-emergency-landing-after-plane-loses-nose-wheel/article3511868.ece)

On top of it all you have this
Exclusive: Will the DGCA be able to save its face on October 23? : Featured, News - India Today (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/will-dgca-be-able-to-save-its-face-on-october-23/1/312334.html):ugh:

A grateful nation can only make heroes and heroines of such commanders. :hmm:

[M.Mouse]

Would like to see our smartypants bring one in when sudden unexpected fog zeroes all the landing strips on his FMC.

And how would that unexpectedly happen?

I my career I have had it happen. Going to Dubai with Sharjah as an alternate when both (and other airfields) all went out in unforecast fog. I went into Kuwait which then refused further aircraft because it (so the controller said) was 'full'. The crew of the aircraft behind us, with a slightly stressed voice, told the controller they did not have enough fuel to go anywhere else so he found space for them.

The TAFs had absolutely no indication of anything like poor visibility.

Does that answer your question?

[AtomKraft]

I think this incident has potential to become a future CRM module....

I can't help wondering where this tree was that they hit. Couldn't see any trees there yesterday, but will have another look today. Edit: know where it is now- quite a long way from the runway!

The Airbus sits forlornly on a short runway awaiting its fate.

There is some suggestion that it actually ran out of fuel? (See thread in SE Asia forum).

Dead stick CAT III on a CAT I ILS..... That'd be a first, I think. Hopefully they had some fuel left though.

[Capn Bloggs]

There is some suggestion that it actually ran out of fuel? (See thread in SE Asia forum).

The Mumbai Mirror article (http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Hero-pilot-averted-another-major-disaster-moments-after-Jaipur-blind-landing/articleshow/28530513.cms) said they landed with 2.3t.

[TCAS FAN]

Looking at it from a runway safeguarding aspect, the runway needs to be classified as an Instrument-Precision runway to support operation of the ILS. ICAO Annex 14, to which the Indian DGCA India apparently complies, requires safeguarding measures to be applied around the runway.

Part of the safeguarding measures is a Runway Strip to protect aircraft using the runway and to counter the effect of a runway excursion. The Runway Strip extends 150 metres perpendicular outwards from the runway centreline. Looking at Google Earth it appears that the tree is/was approximately 80 from the centreline.

What will DGCA Sahib have to say about that in the Accident Report?

[VNAV PATH]

Quoting TCAS FAN

Looking at it from a runway safeguarding aspect, the runway needs to be classified as an Instrument-Precision runway to support operation of the ILS. ICAO Annex 14, to which the Indian DGCA India apparently complies, requires safeguarding measures to be applied around the runway.

Part of the safeguarding measures is a Runway Strip to protect aircraft using the runway and to counter the effect of a runway excursion. The Runway Strip extends 150 metres perpendicular outwards from the runway centreline. Looking at Google Earth it appears that the tree is/was approximately 80 from the centreline.

Your value is on 3.3 in annex 14 . Must be confirmed for the buffer /strip area.



Here is copy of runway 09/27 obstacles , issued from AIP , sorry can't get the link tonight..


http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2014/01/09/14010901053217596.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14010901053217596.jpg)

[TCAS FAN]

VNAV PATH

From what you have provided it appears that India does not comply with ICAO Annex 14. The Runway Strip shown on the Type A Chart indicates "2917 x 150".

Annex 14, Chapter 3 Standards, require that the minimum width for a runway strip for a Code 4 runway (which 09/27 is) is 150 each side of the runway centreline (para 3.4.3), and extend for at least 60 metres prior to the threshold and after the runway end (longer if a Stopway is declared) (para 3.4.2). The Strip dimensions should be 3037 x 300, longer if a Stopway is declared for either runway.

No tree is shown within the Strip, because it appears that the full width strip (ie 150 metres) is not shown.

Under Article 38 of the ICAO Convention, to which India is a signatory, States are required to declare Differences form ICAO Standards. Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the AIP India within which Differences should be listed. Anyone have access to a copy to ascertain whether India declares a Difference in respect of Runway Strips?

[PLovett]

The same thing happened in Australia last year prompting much wailing and gnashing of teeth surrounding alternate fuel requirements and the standard of meteorological forecasting. In that particular case there was no ILS for the approach.

Emergency Landing (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/517250-virgin-aircraft-emergency-landing.html)

[Boeing7xx]

It was a bad day with fog setting in much earlier than anticipated, had quite a few weather folks foxed as well. Most had left their origin when Delhi was reporting good visibility and the TAF didn't have mentions of a fog. While most were orbiting south or east of Delhi, many did divert. Notably Spicejet 256 declared emergency and landed in what was near disaster visibility for the aircraft and crew. that however did get overshadowed by the Air India incident.

[willfly380]

Did they do a manual landing? If yes ,what were the circumstances that led them to make this decision. How unreliable is the ILS at jaipur?
The ILS equipment at most airports are capable of low vis ops , however the backups, lights, signage etc as such are not in place hence only cat1 is certified.Close one i must say.

[Love_joy]

Unfortunately, this type of thing has happened before - and as fuel is so in focus now - will likely happen again.

Like many operators, we are encouraged to take PLOG fuel + whatever we deem necessary, but the cost to carry extra is always pushed hard, and very softly discouraged. Tanking being a separate thing.

We've all been there, get to destination and it's not as predicted. Who can account for that? I can't... If destination, and alternate are forecast to be OK, why more.

Some of my own colleagues have come unstuck with this, in the Po Valley, Northern Italy. After all the airfields up there fogged out in an instant, they ended up going round a few times, before flying the ILS into zero viz, in aircraft only cert up to CAT II

[VNAV PATH]

@TCAS FAN about air strip obstacle area


Here are on PART 1GEN1.7 differences from ICAO standards


eAIP INDIA (http://www.aai.aero/public_notices/aaisite_test/eAIP/PUB/2012-04-01/html/index-en-GB.html)


If you consult PART 3 of main link of AIP, in VIDP (Delhi) some runways have 152 or 300 or 305 meter width strip. 152 m is for runway 09/27 wich is 2813 m long.

Differences in strip/buffet width are probably due to different runway classification.


One more thing , if CAT 1 was manually flown to the ground in heavy fog by night, I guess absence of center line lighting is not nice..

[TCAS FAN]

VNAV PATH

Thank you for the AIP link. Having checked the relevant section, no Differences from Annex 14 Standards are shown for Strip Dimensions, or indeed anything related to Runway Strips. Consequently, unless India has notified ICAO of Differences since 1 April 2012 (the eAIP date) it would appear that India has breached the ICAO Convention Article 38 by not reporting Differences.

One can only speculate that if the DGCA had enforced ICAO Annex 14 Standards (which had indicated to ICAO were the national standard in India) the damage to the aircraft may have been minimal (or possibly none) if the runway had been correctly safeguarded.

If you do have access to the final accident report, I would much appreciate it if you would share it with us.

[Sop_Monkey]

I did time in India and am well aware the north of the country is very prone to fogging out this time of the year.

I was in the sector of aviation where as Captain, you took the fuel you desired that would keep you out of trouble, no questions asked. That fuel uplift was well above the legal minimum in a lot of cases.

However the accountants don't seem to understand that leaving some payload behind in preference to more fuel, is much more beneficial. Preferable than banging up an aircraft and having it out of service for months on end because they were forced to land when they shouldn't have.

[VNAV PATH]

@ TCAS FAN

Seems even US airports do not meet standards: read paragraph 6.5

http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/publications/media/RunwaySafetyReport-kh10-plan.pdf

[TCAS FAN]

VNAV PATH

The National Runway Safety Plan, which you have provided a link for, focussed on runway incursions, the Jaipur accident was a runway excursion.

However I do accept an interpretation that the presence of the tree (apparently within the 150 runway strip) could be viewed as an incursion - but one that the Airport Operator and the DGCA India should have resolved well before the accident happened, or at least highlighted the fact in the AIP India that 09/27 at Jaipur is not safeguarded as a Code 4 Instrument-Precision Runway.

[AtomKraft]

It's a huge tree. But all it did was stop them before they hit the wall. Both wall and tree are surprisingly close to the runway- although I'd never really noticed 'til now...

Also, another ppruner reported that they had 2.3t left.

Not correct I think. They were nearly dry- according to my friendly source.
Same source reports Capt. was 'new'. If so, I really feel for him.
Actually, whether new or not.

[TCAS FAN]

AtomKraft

If there is anything, other than obstacles necessary for air navigation (ILS GP, PAPI, signs etc) within 150 metres of the runway centreline, the runway is not ICAO Annex 14 compliant for an Instrument-Precision runway.

If the Airport Operator or DGCA are not immediately going to do something to make it compliant, the runway should be downgraded to a Non-Instrument Runway (which reduces the Strip width to 75 metres) and instrument approach minima raised to the Circling Minima.

Alternatively, DGCA India admits to ICAO (and the outside world) that they have a Difference from Annex 14 Runway Strip dimensions, and take their chances as to the reaction of airlines and their insurers.

[AtomKraft]

TCAS.

Sounds about time for you to give the DGCA a ring....;)

Good luck.

[TCAS FAN]

AtomKraft

I can only speculate what sort of reply I'd get, that's assuming that they would accept the call!

I await the Accident Report to see whether any contributory factors include lack of compliance with ICAO Annex 14. Suspect that the focus may be on the aircraft commander's actions, and the lack of adequate runway safeguarding hidden in the fog?

[BECMG]

@TCAS FAN

http://dgca.nic.in/cars/B4B-B1.pdf

Under 3.4 and 3.4.7 b) Also 3.4.8

[AtomKraft]

I know the left tyres burst on touchdown but not if that was due to then being left of the C/L or just a hard touchdown.


I believe that's what dragged them off to the left though.


As you say, could have been a lot worse.


JAI undershoot and the area left of the runway are undergoing major landscaping at the moment....

[captjns]

Should have auto-landed back in VIDP. Then this thread would have been non-existent.