Jollies in jets as a business opp

[CBLong]

Hi,

I recently saw an ad for a Delphin for sale for around £40k. While it would be hard to justify buying such a beast as a private toy, it struck me that there must be money to be made from taking people up for jollies. However, if that were the case, surely everyone would be doing it??

Are there people already running such businesses in the UK? Are the legal / safety / noise restriction issues insurmountable?

Seems to me that (the repayments on a £40k loan) + (paying a CPL to fly the thing) + (fuel @ 180 gal/hr) + (annual maintenance) wouldn't work out to be too extortionate??

Plus I (as the owner) might one day get to fly the thing, once I've built my current PPL SEP / 65 hours up to the required ratings!

Any thoughts?

CBL.

[Report FIR boundary]

You are right 'if that were the case, surely everyone would be doing it??' - they would indeed.

The problem is that such aircraft can not get a public C of A (or usually even a private one for that matter) therefore no charge can be made for flying one which rather scuppers the business idea.

The rules are different elsewhere and the busines model works fine in the US, South Africa etc.

[LRRP]

CBLong You are correct and so is Report FIR boundary

There probably would be some sort of demand but it is not possible to run such a business in this country.

There are only two ways to get a flight in such an aircraft.
One is to buy one.
You can have a demonstration flight if you are a genuine prospective purchaser but anything more and you will need an exemption to train from the CAA.
This is possible even for a low hours PPL but there may be certain conditions attached (like no solo until a named and acceptable instructor authorises it).

The other way is to ask a friend who owns one if he will take you for a ride. If you are nice enough to him you may get in to the back seat.

By the way I would recomemnd that you try the L39 Albatros which has a really good feel to it.
Although the Delphin costs £40k-£50k and the Albatross costs about £150k-£170k it is possible to buy a share in an albatross for only £20k for a one/tenth share.

There is a monthly cost and an hourly cost and a fuel cost but with a Ten way group it works pretty well.

I found the L39 burns 100kg of fuel in 11mins and 20 seconds whilst in a 450kmph cruise.

On Saturday I flew from North Weald to Elvington (just outside of York) and the journey took 27mins and 40secs.
North Weald to Kemble took 17mins and 15secs.

I also have a share in a Jet Provost Mk5 which is much cheaper, is fitted with oxygen and actualy outperforms the L39 and but there is a certain feel to the L39 that makes the cost seem so worthwhile.

Let me know if you are seriously interested in ether the L29 Delphin or the L39 Albatross or for thet matter the JP Mk5.

[eyeinthesky]

LRRP : I hope your 450km/h cruise was at or above FL100!! Sounds like just over 250kts...

Also sounds like serious fun!!:D

[LRRP]

eyeinthesky : I think you will find that most military jets are exempt from the 250kts rule.
The CAA appear to recognise that many of these aircraft do not fly too well as low speeds.

For an L39 Max level flight is 405kts
cruise is 295kts
max possible speed is 910kmph or 491.4kts or Mach 0.8 of course this would involve some height loss. above this speed the airbrakes pop out to slow you down.

To relight the engine with the emergency fuel circuit by windmilling your airspeed needs to be 450kmph or 243kts

The gear can be lowerred below 340kmph or 183kts

You may lower the flaps below 325kmph or 175kts
To raise the flaps you must be exceeding 250kmph or 135kts

On take off the speed during the climb should be 350kmph or 189kts

To do a loop or a half cuban you need an entry speed of 600-700kmph or 324kts to 378kts

To find out more take a look at
military jet partnership (http://www.militaryjet.com)
or the US site
39th Aggressor Squadron (http://www.aggressor39.org)

[CBLong]

All,

Thanks for the replies - I knew there had to be a catch! Guess I'll shelve that idea for a while then.... :)

Out of interest, I've had a nose around on the CAA aircraft register (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp) and sure enough, all the L29s registered are on 'permits to fly'. This seems to be the case for most 'warbirds', however I've seen some companies advertising corporate days etc with all flights conducted as 'trial lessons', or words to that effect... is this a way round the rules?

Back to the old Warrior, I guess...

CBL.

[dope05]

I think that any trial lesson has to be in a full Public C of A aircraft and most ex military jets are in the Permit to fly class. Although I have never offered such flights the CAA wrote to all ex military jet CAP 632 owners saying they were watching such offers very very carefully and would go after anybody who was quote "sailing close to the wind" erm good cliche that one !

I have a share in a JPmk5a and wont take anyone up for a jolly and always fly with my friend who also has a share. The main reason for this is concern over any liability in the event of an injury.

It could be argued that the passenger should be provided with all the latest serviced RAF kit, be of the right size for ejection, be of the right weight for ejection, not too light or heavy. Be medically fit, preferably with a certificate to show proof. etc etc etc. The propective passenger may want to dispense with the above for the chance of a ride, but should there be an incident I bet his/her lawyer wouldnt.

It aint worth it.

[canberra]

just think when your in your ex mil jet (which is probably still in its ex mil markings) that any complaints about you will go to the military not the caa! do i sound bitter twisted and cynical, you bet. i took loads of low flying complaints on warbirds and of course they got away with it! one last point if you do operate an ex mil aircraft you may have probs taking it out of the uk.