chip light

[Soave_Pilot]

Hello gents

Few days ago I was cruising along and the turbine chip warning light came on, so I landed the helicopter did a visual inspection and since everything looked normal from the outside (oil level, oil leak etc. etc) pick up hovered for about 10 min.. all gages green, Took off and headed back to base.

Maintenance personel took the sensor off and turns out it did have some metallic dust in the sensor. Now we will have to fly the ship normally and if the light comes on again it will be another story.

I have never experienced this before. Is this common? can it happen once in a while? Or once the metallic dust starts appearing in the sensor the turbine engine is doomed... The engine has about 300 hrs.

[[email protected]]

I had one a week or so ago. Had crew handle comms, landed immediately and called for engineering support once on the ground safely.

We (engineering) pulled the chip plugs, found 'carbon' or nothing significant. Flush oil, clean chip plug(s), screen and change filter. Hover checks 15 mins and ops check satis - on our way. We also reviewed most recent SOAP sample, collected residue with a bit of sticky tape and white paper for trending and subsequently increased SOAP interval info. Carbon or fine powder like substance can be found on chip plugs, sometimes following some sort of engine work. Many Allisons and LTS engines had/have fuzz burners for that reason.

Checking chip plugs to make sure they don't look like a Christmas tree would be the first choice after landing though, after which you should automatically consider maintenance intervention or advice before further flight.

Now you're safely on the ground, you may want to consider the above for the future. I wasn't that remote but even in the Amazon (and I've flown down there - triple canopy etc), I would be a little more cautious than just checking oil levels before departure. :confused: You're next landing may have been a little less controlled with only the buzzards to identify your entry point.

My 2c worth.

[Flying Bull]

Hi Soave_Pilot,

depending of the engine(s) in your helicopter and depending on the flighthours you will do - an engine chip is a more or less common occurence.
Some have chip- or fuzzburners fitted, so before you go for an outside or emergencylanding, you can burn of the stuff on the magplug - and if it isn´t staying on or comes on a second and third time, you continue the flight.
If it stays on, it depends on further values, if you want to put it into ground idle and back to power for landing - or shut down the engine (talking about twins here).
Still, the magplugs are fitted, to tell you, that something is wrong with your engine (or gearbox).
Most times it will be parts from manufacturing or overhauling, that come loose after a while and are no big deal - but sometimes there are bearings and other parts in the engine, which start to break apart.
So you have to consider that every time you get an indication.
It´s good to know, where the magplugs are, so that you can take a look at them - saves the engineers some time. Best have a talk to them, I think they will show you how, and what to think about (keeping the stuff on the magplug for further examination).

Greetings Flying Bull
(MagPlug indications with me around every 800 to 1.000 hrs)

[lelebebbel]

Something to consider: A pilot at another company I worked at got a chip light (I believe it was a transmission light in a 206 or 206L) and decided to save the company some money by flying it home rather than making an outlanding with all the associated "drama". Result was a 6-digit amount of damage to the machine that could have probably been avoided if the machine had been landed and shut down ASAP.

It really depends on the machine and the engine type.

[albatross]

Hate to say it but in the good old daze we carried the necessary tools, lock wire ect and were taught how to check a chip plug, clean it, save any chips for the engineers, do a runup for 10 minutes and if all was well to return to base.
This of course if it was just a small shaving or suchlike. If it was a large chunk or had a part number on it there you stayed.
Many moons ago but when the alternative was a night in the bush at -40........
As an aside in those times we all had the engine course and helped the engineers with maint.
It was company SOP and I would not think of doing it today!

In those days it was normal to buzz off over the horizon for a short contract of a week without an engineer winter or summer.
Bell 206s, As350, 355.
We hardly went anywhere overnight with the 205 without "adult supervision" happened sometimes but only for a day or two.

[Gomer Pylot]

What you need to do for a chip light depends entirely on the RFM. There should be a checklist that spells out what to do for any caution light, and you should follow that to the letter. The relevant government agency will expect it, and may take action if you don't. There may also be more detailed instructions in your Operations Manual. If you haven't already read these, then you're sorely negligent. You need to know the actions to be taken before the light comes on.

[Soave_Pilot]

depending of the engine(s) in your helicopter and depending on the flighthours you will do - an engine chip is a more or less common occurence.

That's some good info to me Flying Bull.

What you need to do for a chip light depends entirely on the RFM


"land as soon as possible" unless noise or vibration is abnormal.

[HeliComparator]

"Land as soon as possible" normally means what it says on the tin. So you did that, at which point the helicopter is unserviceable - after all, you landed because there was an indication of a defect. You can only take off again ("legally", I mean) either if the appropriate maintenance actions for the chip light are carried out and signed off by a licensed engineer, or if the MEL allows you to depart with the unserviceability - which in this case I very much doubt.

So by taking off again, you were flying an aircraft you knew to be unserviceable, its Certificate of Airworthiness temporarily invalid, almost certainly along with its insurance.

I appreciate you are operating in remote areas (presuming your profile is correct) but at the very least you should know what you are risking in terms of your personal liability / career. Maybe your company was quite happy that you got the bird back at your own risk, but if things had gone wrong I doubt they would have been so supportive.

You can't tell what is going on inside an engine just by looking from the outside and checking the oil level.

[ShyTorque]

Chip lights may be spurious, too. The problem comes because you don't know if they're calling "wolf" yet again.

I once diverted three times on one trip due to spurious engine chip warnings. The "fuzz-burn" system didn't make it go away so the engine had to be shut down. I had it checked out each time and it was finally sourced to a faulty plug/harness joint shorting out.

OTH. I've also had one engine chip light that wasn't spurious. The engine mag plug was full of metal flakes.

I've also flown one type of aircraft which had mag plugs but no cockpit warning system. The plugs were pulled by the maintenance crew after so many hours and changed for a new set; then the old plugs were looked at under a microscope by specialists. One morning we landed after hovering at 10,000 feet for most of the night over a city. The main gearbox mag plug had a chunk of metal on it that was too big to come out of the aperture. It was part of a gearwheel and a new main rotor gearbox was needed.

[Gordy]

Helicomparator
You can only take off again ("legally", I mean) either if the appropriate maintenance actions for the chip light are carried out and signed off by a licensed engineer, or if the MEL allows you to depart with the unserviceability - which in this case I very much doubt.

Not necessarily. Here in the US a private pilot can pull a chip detector and determine it is just fuzz.

Even on an air carrier certificate, pilots can be trained and authorized to do it. All my pilots are trained ass such---all perfectly legal.

[Gomer Pylot]

I'm also trained and legal to check the chip plugs. But they have to be checked, as a minimum, and the fuzz removed, with the light extinguished, before it's legal to take off again. You can't take off with a caution light illuminated. Sometimes it takes awhile to find the right chip plug, find the metal, and get the light to go out. Sometimes it's just carbon, and there are no ferrous particles to be found. Sometimes it's just a hair across the plug, and these are common after an engine rebuild. I once checked the transmission chip detector on a 206 and found a piece that had either a 6 or a 9 on it, depending on which way you looked at it. I didn't crank that one back up, but maintenance came out and flew it to the beach for a transmission change. :ooh:

[SASless]

Nasty night over very cold saltwater with huge waves....rain...sleet...Combining Gearbox Chip Light illuminated just as we entered the cruise. I reached out and rotated the segment caution light so it went out.

Coey asked what good that would do.....to be told I had no intention of looking at the thing for almost three hours all the way back to the Beach.

Sometimes.....you rolls the Dice and Takes your chances.

It was fuzz and not a problem.

[unstable load]

Some engines will have 1 or more electrically connected chip detectors that when triggered will turn on a light in the cockpit warning of a potential problem, others have a magnetic plug that is not connected to anything.
These mag plugs need to be removed and inspected at specified intervals, normally at the Daily Inspection, but occasionally at scheduled checks dependant on engine make/model.

An indication of a chip is generally part of fair wear and tear, and the detectors are deliberately made as sensetive as possible to catch miniscule "hairs" and fuzz that come off bits of metal that run against each other under the harsh conditions of normal operation.
Occasionally, there will be a piece that comes off a bearing or a gear that is not a part of normal wear and those are the "christmas trees" due to the shape that small bits sometimes make and the "bits with a part number" that are pucker inducing sized.

Procedures are in place to control actions post chip event, and vary from "clean it and carry on" to "SOAP analysis" and "draining and replacement of oil with test flight/hover" to determine following actions.

At the end of the day, the RFM is your first Directive, and thereafter, whatever your Boss has decided in the SOP's.

[Shawn Coyle]

Strange chip light story -
OH-58 would have a transmission chip light flicker on start, and then go away.
Machine shut down and chip checked - clearn. Happened three times. Mechanic checking finally decided that because there was a larger than normal drop of oil that came out when detector was pulled each time, that the chip detector itself should be changed.
Half an hour later presented me with chip detector with staple on the element - no one could figure out how staple got into the system, but it was sticking up and would tip against the housing as oil started to flow and then somehow come away. It was sticking up enough that it caused the small leak with the detector was removed.

[Soave_Pilot]

I appreciate you are operating in remote areas (presuming your profile is correct) but at the very least you should know what you are risking in terms of your personal liability / career. Maybe your company was quite happy that you got the bird back at your own risk, but if things had gone wrong I doubt they would have been so supportive.

I do operate bordering the amazon and many times over dense forest, my route back could be over a calm river or carry on the flight flying over the forest... guess which one I picked :}. If we stayed there we would have the SAR after us on sunrise. And the CEO was with me.
Satellite phone was dead... few hours to sunset...
I think it was a good decision.
If I were flying over dense populated I probably wouldn't take off unless I talked to maintenance personel.

[Lingo Dan]

As has been variously said above, chip warnings are more likely following a gearbox change or, perhaps, an engine change. In the Huey/Bell 205, I had various gearbox chip warnings but never an engine chip light until this occasion.

I was passing about 800' out of an airfield in Oman in a Bell 205. An engine chip light appeared and it was a no-brainer that I should to return to base - all of 2 miles distant. However, half way through the turn - and now facing into wind and pointing at a very large, and empty dispersal area - the fire light came on. Air traffic were quick to point out that the helicopter was indeed "smoking heavily." I would have been too, had there been time to light a fag!

I entered autorotation, pulled a little pitch at about 200' to see how the engine was doing, but only got an increase of N1 and no increase in torque. That confirmed I was definitely going for an engine-off landing. The landing was fine and I did the fire drill amid an impressive amount of smoke, and emerged to be greeted by the fire crew who had responded several minutes before being called by ATC.

Examination of the engine showed that several first-stage power turbine blades had detached and further damaged the second-stage blades. The out-of-balance power turbine had then torn loose the oil feed to a bearing, thus causing the smoke.

That convinced me of two things:

Better to be lucky than good; and

Treat chip warnings with respect.

[industry insider]

Nasty night over very cold saltwater with huge waves....rain...sleet...Combining Gearbox Chip Light illuminated just as we entered the cruise. I reached out and rotated the segment caution light so it went out.

Coey asked what good that would do.....to be told I had no intention of looking at the thing for almost three hours all the way back to the Beach.

Sometimes.....you rolls the Dice and Takes your chances.

It was fuzz and not a problem.

Your cavalier attitude makes me thankful that geography and the system ensured that I didn't have to fly with you!

[Nubian]

Soave,
If we stayed there we would have the SAR after us on sunrise. And the CEO was with me.

Well, if you had a real emergency after neglecting an engine chip, it would not matter if you had your boss with you or not. And SAR would be called out in any case to pull you potentially dead out of a river.

Now, DID you still had a light on when you took off? If that is the case you don't know enough about your helicopter and should read yourself up before bad luck catches up with you.

When that is said, pending on your helicopter type and it's manuals, it may allow you to do certain checks yourself, in order to get you back to base. Some helicopters have as mentioned above, mag-plugs that can easily determine if something seriously is happening or not to your engine.

As an example, part of my ALF check, I pull the 2 non-electrical engine-plugs on the AS350B3. These would be the first one's I would check after getting a light on the B3, plus the electrical plug on the fuel-control.

[SASless]

How do you reckon it was Cavalier?

Perhaps our whole attitude in those days would be considered such today.

A Mustang Floater Jacket was seen as top shelf survival kit.

Helicopter SAR was up to three to four hours away....assuming they instantly departed upon your Ditching Call.....and could magically arrive directly overhead and winch you up.

We were using Decca for Area Nav....any idea how accurately you could determine your position with that kit in an emergency?

You had one Sarbe in your vest and no EPIRB.

There was a single manually deployed Raft with no Canopy.

Then to Ditch at Night in a Sea State well in excess of the Float's capability....in really cold water and an OAT right at freezing......for a Caution Light Only and no secondary indications?

The Check List, RFM, and Company SOP all agreed and said "Land As Soon As Possible".....not land Immediately.

Talk to me about being Cavalier again will you?

Did turning the Caption Light so it quite shining so brightly in the Dark change anything other than not having to look at the thing for a couple of hours when there was absolutely nothing else it could tell you once it came on and stayed on?

What is it you find so "Cavalier" to you.....do be specific please.

[Chris P Bacon]

On the M250 engine, a couple of points to note.
1. the oil scavenge hole in the Number 1 bearing housing is very small, especially on the C20R engine. Number 1 bearing failure is normally only indicated by fine particles on the chip plug, as the bigger pieces are trapped in the housing. Don't ignore or take any chances with any tiny chips on the forward (top) plug.
2. Fine dust on the chip plugs normally indicates gear wear. What if the fine dust is caused by a gear shaft retaining ring, with the ring about to fail/cut through retaining wall?
3. There may be no debris on the plug because there is no magnetism. Chip plugs lose their strength over time. Every time you remove one, check it can pick up something like a washer sized item.
4. All Rolls Royce approved facilities can tell you the likely source of metal chips, if you have the debris analysed (or send it to them to have it analysed). Just let them know the AMS spec and which chip plug.

[Gomer Pylot]

Shawn, there must be a lot of staples floating around the Bell factory. I pulled a transmission chip plug after a series of lights with nothing being found, and the oil didn't stop pouring out of the housing. I put the plug back in and called maintenance, who pulled the chip detector housing and found a staple inside it. The staple had finally pushed out enough to prevent the seal from closing when the plug was removed.

[SASless]

The Chinook Transmissions used to be known for Candy Bar Wrappers.....which is a story in and of itself!

[FSXPilot]

Dear Industry insider,

He made it to 65 and is still alive and knows more about flying helicopters than you will probably ever know.

That is all.

[Soave_Pilot]

Well, if you had a real emergency after neglecting an engine chip, it would not matter if you had your boss with you or not. And SAR would be called out in any case to pull you potentially dead out of a river.

Now, DID you still had a light on when you took off? If that is the case you don't know enough about your helicopter and should read yourself up before bad luck catches up with you.

When that is said, pending on your helicopter type and it's manuals, it may allow you to do certain checks yourself, in order to get you back to base. Some helicopters have as mentioned above, mag-plugs that can easily determine if something seriously is happening or not to your engine. Perhaps you a bit off topic I sugest you read the initial post again. It is quite easy to judge now sitting on your confy chair at your home, but on a hostile environment it is a whole different story. Don't know about you, but i am very comfortable autorotating into a river bank on where I fly if needed to and walking away.
And I now very much about the helicopter I fly as I learned on ground school and factory training and acted accordingly during the warning light, the chip light was never neglected by me as you suggested. "land as soon as possible" and "land immediately" are two VERY different ways of acting.

[crunchingnumbers]

Soave:

There is a reason some of the people in this thread are sitting in comfy chairs at home. It strikes me that you would do well to re-read the commentary and advice given.

Your original post was a question to the community. Whilst there are some differing views, there are some very experienced pilots who have given valuable information and shared their personal experiences for your benefit. Every day is a new day to learn.

From your last post I offer the following comments - there are lots of capable, confident pilots. The only problem is that some of them are now unfortunately RIP. Aviation can be very cruel for the complacent and/or over confident. Sometimes fate just deals a bad hand. We should always be reminded that bad things can happen to anyone of us on any given day. Just give yourself the best possible opportunity for the best possible outcome.

[ShyTorque]

There is a reason some of the people in this thread are sitting in comfy chairs at home.

They got fired.....:p

[crunchingnumbers]

shytorque ha ha ha….very true

[industry insider]

SASless

I did not suggest that you should have ditched. If it was a 3 hour flight back to land / base then it was windy. If you had just established in the cruise, you were not far from your take off point. Why not just return to the rig?

To just crack the light and ignore the condition without looking at going back to the or a rig, informing Bristow Dyce / Sumburgh or ATC ( probably not open?) so that they could have at least started SAR prep was cavalier in my opinion.

What was the type?

I know about Uvic Jackets, Decca, no SAR etc, I flew there too.

FSX

You must be SAS under another identity. You haven't contributed to the substance of the discussion just told us SAS's age and experience, which we already knew. But thanks anyway.

[SASless]

You must be SAS under another identity. You haven't contributed to the substance of the discussion just told us SAS's age and experience, which we already knew. But thanks anyway.


Sorryo......he speaks for himself....and is in no way the one and only Sasless.


I have no need to post except in my own stead.

I appreciate the vote of confidence but as I do not wish to impugn Industry Insider's reputation in any way....I will make no comment regarding his youth and lack of experience.

[FH1100 Pilot]

I'm with Industry Insider on this. Three-hour flight to the beach? With a combining gearbox chip? Sooooo, why *not* turn around and land back? I'm sure SASless is a lot older and more experienced than all the rest of us mere humans, but turning around would certainly have been the less-cavalier thing to do, no?

[HeliComparator]

Helicomparator

Not necessarily. Here in the US a private pilot can pull a chip detector and determine it is just fuzz.

Even on an air carrier certificate, pilots can be trained and authorized to do it. All my pilots are trained ass such---all perfectly legal.

Yes fair point and the same over here, but the OP implied he had not looked at the detector. Of course if significant metal is found, engineering input is then required prior to further flight.

[HeliComparator]

Nasty night over very cold saltwater with huge waves....rain...sleet...Combining Gearbox Chip Light illuminated just as we entered the cruise. I reached out and rotated the segment caution light so it went out.

Coey asked what good that would do.....to be told I had no intention of looking at the thing for almost three hours all the way back to the Beach.

Sometimes.....you rolls the Dice and Takes your chances.

It was fuzz and not a problem.
Presumably this was in the days before CRM?

[Nubian]

Soave,

Yes, my chair is very comfy and enjoy it as much as I can every time I come off tour.

From your original post, I got the feeling that you were fishing for support of your decision instead of an honest question.
Now, the difference between Land ASAP, and Land Immediately does not matter in this case, as you had landed, effectively Grounding yourself and therefore you need to know what that implies.

From your OP,
so I landed the helicopter did a visual inspection and since everything looked normal from the outside (oil level, oil leak etc. etc) pick up hovered for about 10 min.. all gages green, Took off and headed back to base.

Maintenance personel took the sensor off and turns out it did have some metallic dust in the sensor.

So, from your OP, it seems as you did not pull the plugs and it was only done after reaching home base the techs pulled them. Therefore, I am asking if you took off again with the light ON after your ''visual inspection'' and 10 min hover?

[longbox]

Unless you are in a hostile environment, if the chip light comes on you must land as soon as practice and unless you are cleared by engineering and have the tools, locking wire etc you are grounded until they take a look for you. The engine and gauges will give you no clue whilst performing a visual, if you had a large break up going on and the engine failed you would not be insured if the worst happened. Remember a helicopter will talk to you before if dies a nasty...usually a chip light is one of those signs

[Gordy]

longbox:
and unless you are cleared by engineering and have the tools, locking wire etc you are grounded until they take a look for you.

We have already been there: see here (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/530670-chip-light.html#post8234675)

[Soave_Pilot]

Therefore, I am asking if you took off again with the light ON after your ''visual inspection'' and 10 min hover?

Light was not lighted with high intensity as it was before I landed, it was amber or lower intensity.



Nubian:
So you think it was safer for me to just turn back and land at the base as the RFM states, than doing a precautionary check on ground before proceeding to base??


From your original post, I got the feeling that you were fishing for support of your decision instead of an honest question.

I appreciate all the repplies here and I learn very much from this forum and thank everyone for spending their time participating, however i am not here seeking for approval from anyone.

Happy new year mate.

[ShyTorque]

Having seen many more spurious "chip" lights than real ones, I tend to treat them with some scepticism. However, they do need to be checked out. Having landed, I would never depart again without checking the detector for debris; I've done this a number of times in the past.

One day we were flying the MD and other higher management of the company I worked for (a major engineering manufacturer). The MGB chip light came on as we took off from the helipad at an outstation. We returned to the helipad and shut down. The MD watched us remove our jackets, roll up our sleeves and delve into the depths of the aircraft's upper deck (under the supervision of a maintenance organisation engineering supervisor via mobile phone). We retrieved the chip detector, inspected it, wiped it clear of debris (which was almost invisible, a miniscule hair like piece). We retained this on a piece of paper tissue sellotaped to a sheet of paper). We replaced the detector and the light was no longer on, so after a short ground run we were cleared to carry on back to base.

The MD said that he had no idea that his helicopter pilots were so willing to get their hands dirty in that way (his jet pilots wouldn't) and jokingly offered me an engineering apprenticeship! I told him I'd turned my engineering career down many years ago, to fly for a living. Probably my mistake, he drove a brand new Bentley, I only had a 14 year old Beemer!

[Nubian]

Soave,

So you think it was safer for me to just turn back and land at the base as the RFM states

No, you landed for a check, but you did not check the most important items you should.
Now, I don't know if you get the difference between getting a light and returning to base and landing to check and a the nearest safe spot(Land ASAP) and THEN get airborne with the light which caused you to land, still ON.

Departing with a warning light ON, without checking if it is a real threat or not is in my eyes negligence (and I am sure if the fact were known to your insurance-company in the event of an emergency landing later on, would do to)

Now, nothing happened on the way back, good for you.

You wanted advice no?!

My only advice is that if you get a light again, check it out properly before get airborne.



Happy New Year to you too.

[John R81]

2 experiences of chip light with 2 different EC120


One occurred on the ground - aircraft given to maintenance. A big (few mm) of metal on the gearbox plug - sent for analysis. Turned out to be a fragment from an oil can which must have been introduced during a top-up. That type of metal is not used in the gearbox. Double-flush of the gearbox in the meantime, and aircraft returned to service based upon the report from Eurocopter.


Second incident occurred in flight and the pilot brought the machine back to base - for which he got a bollocking; told in no uncertain terms to put it in a field and call for help (South of England, after all, so not that hostile a terrain). The gearbox plug showed significant fouling, and a gearbox strip showed bearing failure and associated collateral damage. This one was definitely a 'get it out of the sky if you want to live' event. Total gearbox refurb required.

[mickjoebill]

When the third chip light illuminated in a 24 hour period we curtailed our low level, night flight over a capital city with haste!

That particular TR was stuffed…with chunks of metal adorning the plug, engineer went pale when he saw it, knowing we had flown for 5 hours since the first the chip light warning.

Next day I noticed that the grey paint was flaking on the gearbox.
Maybe a coincidence or perhaps flaking paint is a sign of unwelcome heat!

Mickjoebill