Support for XP (Pro) and IE 8 users here on PPRuNe...

[airship]

OK, so Microsoft will stop all support for XP (Pro) and similar next April 2014. I'm using XP and IE 8 (so far as I'm aware, that's the best (only version which works on my 10 year old DELL PC).

I've recently been experiencing various problems (eg. having to "refresh" several times before the page on say JB finally appears). Please, I'm not an imbecile, I know how to clear the cache etc. :rolleyes:

Why is this happening? Does PPRuNe's software (vBulletin) no longer support older browsers? Is it because I've disabled some 3rd party cookies which install themselves as soon as one visits PPRuNe?

We should be told.

[mixture]

I and various other resident gurus have already made our position clear.

Don't come running to Computers & Internet looking for tea & sympathy (or just tech support) if you are running XP beyond D-Day.

Its time to stop clinging on to XP and move on.

Seriously, we're not telling people that to piss them off, we're not telling people that because we're somehow beholden to Microsoft... we're telling people this because we know what home users are like with the state of their PCs, because we've seen this all before with Windows 2000, Windows NT, Windows 95, because we know its going to be a lot worse with XP, because we know people just won't begin to comprehend the security consequences of their stubborn actions, they don't comprehend that all software (including anti-virus etc.) is reliant on APIs provided by at the OS level by Microsoft and don't comprehend the security risks (and system stability risks) of the OS being left to grow cobwebs.

In the mean time, this...

Is it because I've disabled some 3rd party cookies which install themselves as soon as one visits PPRuNe?

Seems more likely to be the cause of your grief.

Don't mess with cookies or javascript unless you understand the consequences of your actions.

[onyxcrowle]

I second that last statement. However if it helps and you have access to a reasonable internet connection and a dvd burner .
Try Ubuntu. It works well even on older pc's.
It is not known for getting viruses.
And you can try before you install it . It allows you to boot from the dvd and run a live session.
I had it years ago on an old vista laptop. From then until Vista SP2 and finally 7 came out did I go back to windows.
However I do do the odd bit of tea n sympathy.
So if you need a little advice feel free to pm me.
Il see if I can help.
IT is my business so hopefully I can help.
But it is vital you change from XP soon
You will be unprotected from anything.
Id bet on a surge in serious consequences from everyone from someone such ad your self right up to high ticket sites where the mind set is. If it aint broke.....
Windows XP while very good has been supassed.
But the final nugget of advice.
Never but ever try Windows 8.1 it is the mosy cynical half thought through over complex and many other things that I cant type here.
For the average user . Their world would end!.

Regards
Jon

[Capetonian]

Never but ever try Windows 8.1 it is the mosy cynical half thought through over complex
My latest laptop came installed with W8. For a few weeks it has been nagging me to upgrade to W8.1. Is 8.1 worse than 8.0? Should I stay or should I go?

[Capn Bloggs]

Nice rant, Mixture. Airship never intimated he'd be using XP for another 20 years unsupported.

Ironically we have onxy recommending we don't update to Windows 8.1. Are you going to give him a rev for that?

For the more-calm types here, my Dad copes with XP but it seems 8 would be a step too far. Would Windows 7 be an option for the next few years for him?

[mixture]

Nice rant, Mixture.

Why thank you. Consider it my Christmas present to you ungrateful lot !

Bah humbug scrooge et al. :E

Airship never intimated he'd be using XP for another 20 years unsupported.

Given the mention of a 10 year old PC, I wouldn't put anything beyond him ! :cool:

(April 9th is also far less than 20 years).

Ironically we have onxy recommending we don't update to Windows 8.1. Are you going to give him a rev for that?

8 is still current, so no. As is Windows 7 to some degree (SP1+). My only beef is with the XP (or more ancient :eek:) users !

But honestly, I can't imagine the difference from 8 to 8.1 is so vast as to warrant the rant from onyx !

Still, I've yet to download my free copy from Microsoft, so I'll reserve judgement and report back in due course .... (no doubt our honourable friend, that bloke from Bracknell has already played with 8.1, so he may well report findings sooner)

[Mike-Bracknell]

It might be a virus you have.


I'm seeing more viruses these days on Windows XP machines than non-XP. Maybe it's coincidence, but maybe it's not.


Mike.

[Guest 112233]

Having recently gone through the hasstle of gettingg rid of XP (SP3) Pro, all ye out there in "Windows XP" land, remember that; if you decide to stay with Microsoft: budget for some decent "System backup software" -

You are remembering to keep the vital stuff on COPIES on either the "Cloud", USB or DVD/CD's in a systematic way.

Slightly less obvious , make sure you export all your bookmarks from IE8 or FF to files that you can "import" back from at a later stage.

Export all your mail contacts to USB *OK the ones you want to keep.if you are using Outlook or the like - I'm talking POP accounts. Gmail etc will be fine.

Record all your passwords: print the list (for temporary use)

If you are using VM do not forget to "Export" you virtual Machines to Seperate HD's.

Make a note of all the relevent Software keys; of application software that you might want to re install like say Office 2007 or other software.

A lot of older Office versions seem to work OK on later versions of Windows.
Think of Photoshop for example that works as an application Win ME to VISTA.

A warning (especialy for those who should know better)

"There be Dragons out here" - For those out there who really want to grab that that last 1.5 Gb from a 60 Gb USB drive PLEASE when extending or deleting a partition and the phone goes, followed by the Door bell and the smoke alarm, go back to what you were doing - WAIT 20 seconds "Re-orentate brain" remember that you were working with "disk 01 and not disk 0" in my case: and proceed with due care and attention.

And for my next trick.

On that trusty USB Stick with all the relevent activation codes: Note a partial activation code with the last five alphanumeric digits missing is unless.

My backup Software unfortunately did not identify the boot partition even after re installation of the operating System. "Its a long and weary road that many feet have trod"

Beware:

CAT III

Edit: With reference to MB, Microsoft have published a security report detailing the relative infection statistices in infections per 1000 P.C's based on the results gathered from the microsoft anti malware app that runs automatically in a limited way as part of the patch tuesday update process.

Its able to identify if a PC does heve some protection in place, but the stats need to be treated with some caution. See the editorial of a well known PC Mag (Beano Fans think of Gnasher )

[Heathrow Harry]

XP still works for a lot of people - having to re-learn a whole bunch of stuff just because Microsoft needs to pay a dividend isn't a reason for a non-power user to upgrade TBH

I work with a mixture of OS's and it's horses for courses -

[M.Mouse]

XP still works for a lot of people - having to re-learn a whole bunch of stuff just because Microsoft needs to pay a dividend isn't a reason for a non-power user to upgrade TBH

Bit like saying I will drive my 30 year old car because I understand it and it still works. Ignoring the fact it is clunky, slow and inefficient when compared to a newer model.

I recently sourced and installed a new PC for a friend whose XP box was getting very old and was past its sell by date. Against my instincts I bought her a machine with W8 on it. It drove me nuts for the first few hours, mainly due to not being able to find anything!

After a few more hours and after upgrading to W8 1 I grudgingly found that I quite liked a lot of it.

However, I received a call a few days later from said friend and she was ecstatic that 'It is so much easier to use, I love it!'. Given that she is an utter numpty when ever I had tried to talk her through something over the telephone when she was using XP to say I was shocked was an understatement. I guess from an uninformed user's point of view MS may have actually made a good OS or more accurately a good user interface.

The differences between W8 and W8.1 are neatly shown here. (http://www.guidingtech.com/23466/reasons-windows-8-1-better-than-windows-8/)

[obgraham]

If you've got 8, do the 8.1 update. It's more user friendly, and is easier to reconfigure to look like 7. No downside that I'm aware of, except time.

[P.Pilcher]

I have acquired a new hard drive and burned a DVD with Ubuntu on it. I am now plucking up courage to install same to see if I can rid myself iof the curse of being obliged to upgrade my Microsoft OS. I have Win 7 on the computer on which I am writing this and, for some reason, I cannot get it to reliably store the cookie I need to store my Pprune settings.... and all sorts of other problems. UGH! I just hope Ubuntu will eventually enable me to use my machines like I used to in the days when XP was the current OS.

P.P.

[finncapt]

I'm a Linux Mint man myself - Ubuntu is Boeing brown but Mint is green - more like Airbus blue.

After a few wines!!!

[Guest 112233]

The Upgrade for the uninitiated for Win 8.0 to win 8.1 is it available as an .iso file or do you need to wait for the install ? NB not everyone has a relatively high speed download.

Even the Ubuntu 13.XX iso is too big for a CD, you need a big USB stick.

CAT III Moved

For completness and the very patient:

Update to Windows 8.1 from Windows 8 - Microsoft Windows (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/update-from-windows-8-tutorial)

The site does not explicitly mention upgrade times but I'm certain if you use a well known browser you may get appropriate info.

PP The constant references to the origional release date of XP are misleading in Computer Science terms when the last SP update was released we had in many ways an eseantially new O/S.

I suspect the Event horizon being waved by the informed members of the "tech press" is based on unstubstantiated crap - Anti Virus Software has evolved to have a very close intertaction with the workings of operating systems - i need more detail here.

I know there are a few very good exeptions, but remember the "maps fiscao" One reviewer for a "National" UK paper chose the location of paper's own offices as a test - Clearly a "Direct entry" command orentated professional captain of the digital universe.

We need a professional computer support persons's rumor network.

[ A personal note: developing software is a war of arttrition - I know it.... The reluctance of IT support staff to embrace "New technology" is founded in years of miserable experence "of the survivours" of modern commercial practice. Incremental change, Ka-San as a management process has been proven to work. Sorry to be so miserable - Bah Hum bug !]

CAT III

[obgraham]

Cat III:

I did the 8.1 on a new ASUS laptop, which arrived with 8. First I had to do all the updates, so that it would in fact go out and find 8.1 on the update site. There were close to 100 updates to 8 alone.

After that, if I recall, the 8.1 showed up as an available update at Microworst's update site. The download was huge, something like 160 megs. (I don't know my "iso's" from a hole in the ground!) The whole process of updating and installing took all of 6 hours, on my DSL broadband line. I'm glad I didn't try to do it on my alternate 4g line, which has a monthly limit.

I have to admit, I was really surprised that when rebooted for the final time, 8.1 booted up and ran without a hitch.

[Guest 112233]

After posting - I found this but all the usual warnings apply.

How to download the official Microsoft Windows 8.1 ISO | How To - CNET (http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57608376-285/how-to-download-the-official-microsoft-windows-8.1-iso/)

CNET is reputable (I have used the site for ligitimate downloads) but for me the process is untried.

CAT III

[mixture]

if you decide to stay with Microsoft: budget for some decent "System backup software" -

You are remembering to keep the vital stuff on COPIES on either the "Cloud", USB or DVD/CD's in a systematic way.


Mac, Windows, Linux I don't care... people who don't have a decent backup routine in place FROM DAY ONE are idiots.

Drives fail, software goes AWOL, user errors happen AT ANY TIME .... no backup routine and you're asking for trouble.

Bit strongly worded perhaps, it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who significantly underestimate the importance of a good backup routine ! :E

(not aimed at CATIII-NDB, talking in general here...)

for a non-power user to upgrade TBH

Oh for gods sake....

Its not about power users, its not about supporting Microsoft.

Its to do with the stability of your system, and more importantly the SECURITY of your system.

If you do online banking, undertake e-commerce transactions, keep personal and private information on your PC, you MUST move away from XP.

The only safe XP machine after the 8th of April will be one that is PERMANANETLY disconnected from the internet.

Anti Virus Software has evolved to have a very close intertaction with the workings of operating systems

Anti-Virus relies on the OS, in the APIs and other aspects of the OS. Find holes in the APIs that don't get patched up and your Anti-Virus is a worthless pile of code.

As I've said before, if I were a member of the dark side community, I would be holding back my best exploits and indeed putting more effort into finding new exploits because I would know how stubborn many XP users will be and hence quality exploits post-April will be worth more than gold.

[Guest 112233]

In my case it was a single point of failure. Me. (re post #17)

Those regular USB stick copies (nested duplicates) + to my suprise, an encrypted copy of my Passwords in the "cloud" came in very handy. After 7 years use I had to really work hard to re establish a working system and I thought I was safe.

To back up your post - The rule of multiple paths of redundancy applies to everyone.

Re the later post, the bad ones and they are clever, will no doubt have a treasure trove, of grief, using techniques that cannot really be discussed here that could be applied across "families of operating systems"

To really look at the dark side of things, like the well known abuse of cryptography now being applied for extortion.

CAT III

[airship]

Thank you for all your contributions. I've also read through this other current thread here (http://www.pprune.org/computer-internet-issues-troubleshooting/529832-waiting-windows.html).

Whilst I've known for some time (ever since I bought a new E-IDE 160GB hard disk 3 or 4 years ago and first came across the term SATA, then had to replace my dead graphics card a few months ago with a dusty old generic AGP card supporting 1 monitor only - all I could find on a Saturday morning, which cost €25 at the local PC shop...), that I would have to eventually replace my 10 year old DELL PC, the lack of continued Microsoft support was what most worries me. My last DELL PC cost me €1500 (came with XP Pro) back in 2003. Before that, it was another DELL, bought in 1997 with Office SBE. In between though, I also received a gift "for services rendered" to Microsoft's Paul Allen and his yacht MEDUSE in the form of a retail pack of MS Office 2000.

Everything works for me today: DELL PC / XP PRO SP3 / OFFICE 2000 / IE8 / OUTLOOK EXPRESS 6 etc. and if there's one thing I've learned about IT - if it works, then don't touch it?! OK, fewer websites are willing to ensure that their sites are 100% compatible with IE8, but otherwise...?

The GOOD NEWS is that though my last DELL cost me €1500, it appears that I could currently buy a OPTIPLEX 3020 with INTEL i3-4130 4th generation 3.4GHz / 3MB dual-core processor with integrated graphics card / 500GB hard disk, supplied with Windows 7 PRO (with Windows 8 64bit OS license - whatever that means) for €349 + VAT (without monitor or delivery charges). MS OFFICE 2013 (Family - SBE) available for €199 extra (I need Word and Excel). So the financial cost is not so great a "shock" as what I thought it might be.

What I do not look forward to especially is spending several days at least learning about and configuring the new PC / OS etc. to work "just how I'd like it to", transferring all the data from the old PC to the new PC (presumably would not be able to install the old E-IDE hard disks to the new PC?), then trying to re-install my favourite (and paid-for) programs accumulated over the years which worked on XP PRO... :{

2 last questions for the sages here though:

1) Would it make more sense to spend a few hundred € more than the DELL hardware above? I don't do any video-editing etc., but my 10 year old DELL was the "bee's knees" when I originally bought it, just in case I meet any Fort Bragg types...

2) Concerning Windows 7 PRO, was that a reliable OS? Apparently the DELL PC would come with that as standard together with "a Windows 8 64 bits" license. Would that allow me to upgrade to Windows 8.1 (and would I want to)?

[Capetonian]

MS OFFICE 2013 (Family - SBE) available for €199 extra (I need Word and Excel).We have used Open Office/Apache products on our machines for several years. As good as MS and free. Not quite as many bells and whistles, mostly not needed anyway.
https://www.openoffice.org/
If you have concerns regarding compatibility of file formats, there are solutions to that. When I send documents out I save and send them as .pdf. If the recipients need to work on them you can save and send in MS Office format.
I have nothing against MS other than their market domination, and the cost of it would be borne by my clients anyway if I chose to bill it to them, but I like supporting other providers than those who dominate.

[mixture]

using techniques that cannot really be discussed here that could be applied across "families of operating systems"

Indeed. There was a nice little blog post somewhere in the depths of the Microsoft website that pointed out that of the many recent patches issued for Windows 7 and Windows 8, Windows XP was also patched at the same time as it was vulnerable.

Hence, as the article went on to point out, it doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to guess that the "dark side" will make a profitable business out of "back-porting" Windows 7 and Windows 8 vulnerabilities by reverse-engineering the 7/8 patches them and creating exploits for XP.

like the well known abuse of cryptography now being applied for extortion.

Yeah, those are some pretty scary ones. I personally haven't seen them in action, but I've heard a few war stories.

[Guest 112233]

Bang on the nail. Yes I saw the article too - We both read the same Mag - I did not want to scare people - Some of the implications were covered by "Security Now" this week at the end of the podcast. I have no conncetion with the producers -

Mods that podcast is spsonsored feel free to delete this if you wish.

CAT III

Edit: The crypto Scam: It's over a 100 users in the UK mainly SMB customers by E-M phishing apparently as the first vector.

[jimtherev]

W7 pro. Rock solid in my experience. Only 2 crashes since I installed it just after release; both of 'em due to faulty usb sticks.
Unlike XB, which crashed quite frequently.

[Mike-Bracknell]

*cough*

Windows XP: Microsoft?s ticking time bomb | Analysis | Features | PC Pro (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/386077/windows-xp-microsoft-s-ticking-time-bomb)

[Loose rivets]

Record all your passwords:

I'm delighted with the fully transportable KeePass. Mind you, I haven't forgotten the master password yet.


Nice link, Mr Mouse.



Here you can choose options that allow you to automatically boot your machine into desktop, instead of the Start Screen.

And coupled with a custom shell, I really found some common ground with W7. I didn't try it, but there is a download to stop the selected items hogging the entire screen. I never did contain Skype, however. Under W8 it seemed to have a (determined) mind of its own - even when I got an old copy running the new one fought its way back. The rest would have been fun . . . for someone who hadn't got a day job to do.

I'm not sure I'm going to have the courage to stick with 8.1 when I do load a kosher copy on my 'new' laptop.

[Booglebox]

airship, stick with windows 7, at least until you're sure you want to dive in to windows 8.

If there are people who absolutely cannot / will not migrate from XP, you might want to consider the mouthful that is Microsoft Windows Embedded POS-Ready 2009. Technically it's not XP but Windows Embedded as the name suggests... however, it's still NT 5.1 32-bit, seems to be 100% compatible, and you can configure it to look / feel the same (very easily, by copying Luna theme files from an XP PC).
What's more, it's supported with security updates until 2019, and that's not a typo.
More info (PDF): http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=159099

[mixture]

you might want to consider

And you might want to consider the various licensing restrictions .... the first one being you can't run Office apps on it.

[occasional]

Seems to me that it would be a good moment for governments to intervene and put an end to this nonsense about dictated obsolescence and cessation of support. Good software should be expected to last 20 years.

Anyone know if governments make arrangements for the software that they buy to be supported outside the public arena ?

[mixture]

Seems to me that it would be a good moment for governments to intervene and put an end to this nonsense about dictated obsolescence and cessation of support. Good software should be expected to last 20 years.

Says someone who has evidently not spent much time in the IT industry, let alone software development.

"dictated obsolescence and cessation of support" is a nonsense that only uneducated consumers spout out.

IT is complex with a rapid pace of change, all parties involved have to continually adapt to new developments (and new requirements from customers). Developing software costs a shedload of money, maintaining software costs another shedload of money.... you can't support it all for ever, it simply would not make a viable business model.

And before you spout the words "open source"....no, that model doesn't work either. Sure you've got access to armies of "free" coders, but the design, QA, documentation, end-user support and other aspects are poor ! Open Source has its uses, but you have to be able to put up with its downsides.

"Good software should last for 20 years" .... yeah, right ! :rolleyes:

Anyone know if governments make arrangements for the software that they buy to be supported outside the public arena ?

Anyone with enough money in their bank account can write Microsoft a cheque which will extend the support coverage of EOL software for up to 3 years post EOL date.

[occasional]

ays someone who has evidently not spent much time in the IT industry, let alone software development.

"dictated obsolescence and cessation of support" is a nonsense that only uneducated consumers spout outOdd that the software I wrote was certainly in use 20 years after it was written, and there was even then little prospect of it being replaced.


IT is complex with a rapid pace of change, all parties involved have to continually adapt to new developments (and new requirements from customers). Developing software costs a shedload of money, maintaining software costs another shedload of money.... you can't support it all for ever, it simply would not make a viable business model.In the world you describe most customers are best advised to find a good model and stick to that model for 10 to 20 years ie only change product when there is good reason to change.

You also appear to be overlooking the fact that support costs after ten years are likely to be pretty trivial.

The reason for my original question was that I would expect any end-user buying thousands of computers to insist that software support continued for 20 years. Assuming that a few buyers have shown that level of common sense then the additional cost of providing support for everybody is negligible. In fact, ceasing support becomes a marketing decision.

[Capn Bloggs]

IT is complex with a rapid pace of change, all parties involved have to continually adapt to new developments
Codswallop. By all means fix the stuff under the hood so the nasties can't give me a new virus, but making your software all airy, fairy, floaty and different-looking just because it gives the latest geeks a buzz is not necessary and just makes life harder for a lot of us who just want to do productive things with their computers and not have the hassle of working out how a "new" program works to achieve the same thing.

[mixture]

Odd that the software I wrote was certainly in use 20 years after it was written, and there was even then little prospect of it being replaced.

Let me guess, it was something niche, specialist and of limited scope. Some sort of embedded system like an FMS ?

I still maintain that you are very much still wearing rose tinted spectacles if you seriously think a modern Operating System, or modern general PC software should last 20 years !

The vast majority of large buyers operate on a 3 to 5 year lifecycle. Quite frankly, talking about 20 years for generic office (or home) systems is simply ludicrous. I think you very well know that.

[le Pingouin]

occasional, if you want to live with a 20 year old OS then feel free to revert to say Win3.1. Good luck on getting any recent software to run on it. You can only keep patching in new technology for so long before it all falls over under the weight of hacks to get stuff working. And your support costs only fall to zero after 10 years if your product is frozen.

mixture, exactly how much support does closed source give to the average home user, or small office user? None, aside form patches and opens source does exactly that too.

[aditya104]

@Booglebox
POS-Ready 2009 could be a handy alternative. Let's hope there is a way to run MS-Office on that. MS-Office is the only thing that is stopping me from migrating to Linux. I used to use Openoffice and LibreOffice before(even on Windows), but since I have moved to MS-Office, I have been hooked. Totally worth it. Now, I can't imagine moving back to other office apps.

Secondly, can't run FS2004 or FSX on Linux.

[mixture]

POS-Ready 2009 could be a handy alternative. Let's hope there is a way to run MS-Office on that. MS

As I said above, for those people thinking of jumping on the silly idea of using POS rather than migrating to Windows 7 or 8... READ THE LICENSE AGREEMENT. For a start, no, you cannot run Office on it, they explicitly tell you that in the agreement.

POS-Ready is a specific product for a specific application. POS = Point of Sale.... your home computer (or office computer) is not a Point of Sale.

People should just bite the bullet and move to 7 or 8 rather than clinging on to old stuff.

[mixture]

2) Concerning Windows 7 PRO, was that a reliable OS? Apparently the DELL PC would come with that as standard together with "a Windows 8 64 bits" license. Would that allow me to upgrade to Windows 8.1 (and would I want to)?

Windows Vista was a terrible OS.
Windows 7 is what Vista should have been.

Whilst 7 is a decent OS, if I were you, since you're starting from a clean slate on a new system, I would just bite the bullet and use Windows 8.1. Better to start learning now then have to face the inevitable a few years down the line. The added benefit of using 8/8.1 rather than 7 is it buys you an extended period of support from Microsoft, given that 8/8.1 is the current product, and 7 is gradually being phased out (end of Mainstream support 2015, end of extended support 2020 .... compared to 8 with dates of 2018 and 2023 respectivley)

[mixture]

mixture, exactly how much support does closed source give to the average home user, or small office user? None, aside form patches and opens source does exactly that too.

Two words .... Linker Libraries.

You see, *nix/*nux systems nothing but a collection of software. You've got the kernel and you've got all the third-party software. All this jumble of software is developed and patched up by individual groups of people. There is no real overall picture despite what certain distributions might try to portray.

What that means is if you've got software on your Linux box that was compiled against, say version 0.9 of the OpenSSL libraries, but then your next patch pull from the Linux Distribution updates the OpenSSL libraries to 1.0, which breaks your software.

On the other hand, with closed source, the Operating System developer makes APIs available to third-party software developers. As the Operating System manufacturer patches and enhances their Operating System, they ensure as part of the QA process that the APIs still work as advertised.

[le Pingouin]

Seriously, how many Linux users compile their own software? They don't. They just pull it from the repository where the distro provider looks after the dependencies.

For the average end user there is no difference.

[mixture]

Seriously, how many Linux users compile their own software? They don't. They just pull it from the repository where the distro provider looks after the dependencies.

Users might not, but they may well use third-party software not sourced from the distro repository.

Also the distro repository doesn't always take care of the dependencies that well, you can't rely on it. That's the whole point I'm making, the individual libraries are all individual little open source projects that happen to have been selected to be part of the distro repository. No promise is made that the distro cares about dependency compatibility ... they'll just continue rolling out updates to the individual packages. They simply do not have the manpower or the will to cross-check every single dependency for compatibility with all the other packages they distribute. The distros may also remove packages at a whim. That is why the closed source model of documented exposed APIs is better.

I'm not anti open-source, its just a case of the right tool for the right job. For the average home user, the hassle of open source is really not worth it when the Microsoft or Apple communities are larger and better supported.

[le Pingouin]

And they may well not use anything other than repo sourced software. The truth is the vast majority of the software that users use only comes from repositories.

Can't recall the last time software downloaded via a repository failed due to unsatisfied dependencies.

[mixture]

Can't recall the last time software downloaded via a repository failed due to unsatisfied dependencies.


Maybe, maybe not, and maybe dependencies might not have been the best example but I've seen lots of examples where software has failed due to failure of one of its dependencies, following an update of one of its dependencies due to a change in configuration file format of the dependency binary.

[cattletruck]

Could Windows 8x be another Vista in the making?

Re opensource repositories you can set up global parameters to preserve backwards compatability. I used to maintain BSD repos and they took a full day to build with some cyclic dependency issues and some tricks to get tools that had obscure X11 library dependencies to build. Not for the faint hearted.

Switched to rpm based distros and never had any issues as long as you updated frequently and paid attention to the release notes.

[Groundgripper]

I came onto this forum for a completely different purpose and tripped over this thread.

So, it would appear that I finally need to get my@rse in gear and update from XP: quite honestly, no surprise there. Being no expert, I had a quick look around and it would seem that installing W8 would result in most of my programs becoming unuseable - again no surprise, we've moved on from Photoshop Elements V2, I guess (:O) and I haven't used Photosuite 4 for some years, so I could do without that. My weather station is compatible with W7 - is that also too early to work on W8? Also new drivers would be necessary for my Canon MX310 printer - I can cope with that. Microsoft Office? Something newer than Office 2003.:bored:

Doing a quick Belarc analysis:

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad98/cb1943/Belarcsml_zpsa032e637.jpg (http://s925.photobucket.com/user/cb1943/media/Belarcsml_zpsa032e637.jpg.html)

I guess I'd need a separate graphics card as I only have 'on-board' graphics, but the rest looks OK to me.

I also have a 2005 vintage laptop (Patriot - PC World branded Advent 7063M) which I assume I'll have to chuck or convert to Linux or Ubuntu; Google Earth won't work on it any more and there's only room for about 1Gb RAM.

My wife has an ASUS Eee(e?) notebook, about 4 years old, also on XP so I assume that that needs a different version of W8.

Rather a lot in one go, I know , but I'd rather get the process sorted out before I'm standing before a computer shop owner who is gently salivating at the thought of his profits for the year suddenly rocketing.:E
GG

[Keef]

I would upgrade from XP, ideally to Win 7 if you can get hold of a legit copy, otherwise Win 8.1 with the "legacy look", which fixes most of the silliness.

I would stay with Office 2003 if it does what you want.

I bought Office 2007 and found it so bloated with stuff I would never use that I couldn't find the stuff I do use. It has silly ribbons that drop down (as if I needed that many options), and the icons move around depending on which ribbon you/re on. I gave it to my neighbour's daughter, who likes lots of buttons and the like, and went back to 2003 which I still use.

Win 8 is a nightmare (based on three days I spent with it before going back to Win 7, and several comments from other folks whose opinion I respect). Happily, with Win 8.1 there is an option to set it to look and feel like Win 7.

As for drivers - you may be lucky and find that the old ones still work.

[occasional]

if you want to live with a 20 year old OS then feel free to revert to say Win3.1. Good luck on getting any recent software to run on it. You can only keep patching in new technology for so long before it all falls over under the weight of hacks to get stuff working. I would suggest that most people who buy a PC simply want it to continue doing what they bought it for, until it dies from physical failure. For the great majority , adapting to new technology is of neglible interest, and I doubt that anyone buys a computer to run a program which will be developed in ten years time.

All they need is that the PC keep running the hardware that they originally purchased.

Even so I am amazed at the inability of developers to make software reasonably compatible from one generation to the next.

And your support costs only fall to zero after 10 years if your product is frozen. As far as I am aware XP is frozen.

Let me guess, it was something niche, specialist and of limited scope. Some sort of embedded system like an FMS ?
Nothing niche or specialist. Much like the stuff that goes into Microsoft operating systems.

I still maintain that you are very much still wearing rose tinted spectacles if you seriously think a modern Operating System, or modern general PC software should last 20 years !
I can think of no good reason that a modern operating system should not last 20 years. The only impediment in principle would appear to be the fact that it does not suit software suppliers.

On occasions an OS may be superseded by events that come as a surprise to the supplier. The appearance of viruses, etc.on a massive scale is clearly such an event, but such a surprise is hardly a normal occurrence.

The vast majority of large buyers operate on a 3 to 5 year lifecycle.
Which might be one reason why people manage to spend extraordinary amounts of money on systems which never get to work. If a hardware supplier had told me that they were working on that sort of lifecycle the conversation would not have continued for much longer, and that was when electronic equipment was far less reliable than it is today.

Quite frankly, talking about 20 years for generic office (or home) systems is simply ludicrous. I think you very well know that.
Ludricrous to who ? The supplier or the customer.

[le Pingouin]

occasional, you'd be happy using a browser that can't access most of the Internet in a usable manner then?

That's the gaping hole in your desire for no change. Many other things move on so your OS needs to as well to keep up.

Remember Win98 and it's security model (or lack thereof)? Would you seriously wish that on anyone in this day and age?

XP might be frozen, but it doesn't mean support costs are nothing. Age doesn't mean no new security flaws. There will be some cracker flaws "released" post April.

[mixture]

occasional,

There is a phrase occasionally used on forums ......

"Don't feed the troll"

I'm afraid I'm going to decline from replying to any more of your ludicrous rants demanding software that lasts 20 years. Try as I might, I can't see any genuine reason for your statements apart from trying to stir things up with some deliberately controversial posts that have no sound reasoning behind them.

Seriously. Just think about all the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years. Think about all great developments that are yet to come in the next 20. Then contemplate if you really want to be locked into something equivalent to Windows 3.1 or the Sinclair QL in 20 years time.

[Groundgripper]

I would upgrade from XP, ideally to Win 7 if you can get hold of a legit copy, otherwise Win 8.1 with the "legacy look", which fixes most of the silliness.

Thanks Keef, I'll try that.:ok:

GG

[Ancient Observer]

Keef,
I did upgrade my Office from 2003, which I liked, to 2007, which is far too clever for me. It is so different that I can actually do less with it.........

Next time I am conned in to getting the newer, better, I'll keep a copy of the old one, just in case.
BUT - as mixture points out, I am glad that I'm not still on 98 or 3.1.

[Keef]

Many years ago, a wise boss told me it's a nifty idea to be the first to be second - you can learn from the mistakes of the bloke who's too fast off the block.

The other lesson was "always have a path back" - I still have (to this day) the install disks for my Office 2003: this is the third or fourth PC they've been installed on. The updates take a while these days, and the .docX .xlsX and .pptX converters are needed, but I still copy over my "settings" file with things the way I like them.

I still have my two Win 7 install DVDs (I thought I needed two - one for the desktop, one for the laptop). When Win 7 goes, unless there's something as good on offer from MS, I suspect I'll be joining my techie pals round here and using Linux.

[aditya104]

for those people thinking of jumping on the silly idea of using POS rather than migrating to Windows 7 or 8... READ THE LICENSE AGREEMENT. For a start, no, you cannot run Office on it, they explicitly tell you that in the agreement.

It can run Office 2007 portable (http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/40191-Windows-Embedded-POSReady-2009?p=679521&viewfull=1#post679521). I will wait till people start installing this OS to find out if there are any issues.

People should just bite the bullet and move to 7 or 8 rather than clinging on to old stuff. The problem is that I am not sure if the hardware I have (from 2007) will be able to handle Win 8. Even if it does install, I think it will slow the system down by not leaving enough RAM for other applications.

[mixture]

It can run Office 2007 portable. I will wait till people start installing this OS to find out if there are any issues.

Did you even bother to read my post ? Clearly not because all that stupid link you posted is demonstrating people operating in contravention of the license agreement .... Which is illegal.

You are NOT allowed to run Office on POS. End of story.

[le Pingouin]

C'mon Mix, at least use the right terminology. There is nothing illegal about it. It might contravene a licensing agreement but show me a jurisdiction that has a law covering this. Don't tell me you think copyright infringement is theft as well.....

[llondel]

What that means is if you've got software on your Linux box that was compiled against, say version 0.9 of the OpenSSL libraries, but then your next patch pull from the Linux Distribution updates the OpenSSL libraries to 1.0, which breaks your software.

If you're using a mainstream Linux distro then it handles all of that for you. It's no worse than using Windows Update, which has had its howlers over the years. Just occasionally I'll have a hiccup when doing an update, but that's usually because I'm trying to do an update that is still being rolled out to the various mirror sites and it resolves itself (i.e. works) within a few hours.

I would say that Linux Mint is a perfectly adequate replacement for XP if all you need to do is web browsing, read email and do a bit of word processing. It will put in a decent performance on old hardware that can't handle newer Windows versions, too. There's the added advantage of not needing all that anti-virus software slowing the machine down, too.

[MG23]

My wife has an ASUS Eee(e?) notebook, about 4 years old, also on XP so I assume that that needs a different version of W8.

Linux works perfectly on my XP-era EeePC. Certainly much better than Window 8 is likely to.

Seriously. Just think about all the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years.

Almost all of which happened before XP went mainstream. About the only major change since then has been the rise of multi-core CPUs, and even that wasn't such a big deal since my first XP machine was running on a hyperthreading CPU that faked two cores.

A major new OS every couple of years made sense in the 80s and 90s, when technology was changing so fast. It makes no sense today, other than to force users to pay to 'upgrade' when they don't want to.

[JDJ]

I just installed a Linux distribution called "Zorin", which is designed to look and feel a bit like Windows. It certainly runs much better than W7 on a little Samsung Netbook.

Have switched to Apple for the main computer now though!

JJ.

[airship]

Just tried accessing the official French lot(t)o website (https://www.fdj.fr/page/info/titre/mettre-a-jour-mon-navigateur), to check the results from Wednesday's draw (and to find out if I'd won enough to buy a new PC). Not only could I not check any results, I couldn't even play Friday's EuroMillions draw using my online account (with remaining credit) with them. :{

The FDJ apparently insists on upgrading from IE8 to a newer version, or else installing Firefox, Safari or Chrome...?! MS Update confirms that IE8 is the most recent (last) version for XP.

They're "all ganging up on me" apparently. I reckon the EU should immediately open investigatations as to whether or not there has been any collusion or malpractice, anti-competitive behaviour here...?! :mad:

[le Pingouin]

Well airship, the Holocene has well and truly arrived, WinXP users are the Neanderthal meeting their demise in a cave in Spain and the world is moving on.

Anti-competitive? Really?!? MS itself is telling you to stop using IE8 & WinXP. FDJ is very sensibly looking at protecting their business by insisting users use a supported browser.

[Booglebox]

people operating in contravention of the license agreement .... Which is illegal.

:D :} :E :ok:

Did you ever read the iTunes / iOS agreement? For a while they had a clause where they own your soul, as a joke, because they knew nobody would ever read it.

Anyway, regardless of licensing agreements, it's a bit daft to run POS2009 because it's not actually XP but XP Embedded which is a bit different and not necessarily 100% compatible, and compatibility is the only reason you should have for running this... making the Vista GUI look like XP is probably much easier.
Running Office 2003 on POS2009 is stupid because although the OS gets security updates, Office doesn't.

[Capn Bloggs]

A major new OS every couple of years made sense in the 80s and 90s, when technology was changing so fast. It makes no sense today, other than to force users to pay to 'upgrade' when they don't want to.
I agree.

Airship, you have my sympathies. :ok:

The nerds have taken over the asylum.

[mixture]

Did you ever read the iTunes / iOS agreement? For a while they had a clause where they own your soul, as a joke, because they knew nobody would ever read it.

Where did you get that stupid old wives tale from.

Apple and other corporate legal departments have better things to do with their time than to put in joke clauses into agreements.

Stop spouting nonsense.

[le Pingouin]

The nerds have always been running it. The problem children are those who think a computer is just another appliance. It's not.

Hands up who is still using the same level of hardware they first used WinXP on? Thought not. Technology is still changing rapidly. Having to stop using an OS after 12 years is hardly an onerous rate of change.

[Ancient Observer]

There are some great bits of developer nonsense out there. The Co I joined back in 75 spent rather a lot of money on mainframes and owned a lot of its own cables. (Including ones to various Colonial outposts, such as the USA).
Anyway, we had a "messaging" system back in 75, built on the back of the HR/payroll systems. Plain text only, on dumb terminals, and lurid green text on the screen, but it worked. By the early 80s I could send messages to most parts of the Empire.
Planted all over the place were the names of the developers. The only one I remember as it was easy to find was one developer's name upside down at the bottom of the login screen.
When I asked why they were there, the reply was simply "Because we could".

[mixture]

There are some great bits of developer nonsense out there.

Sure... those are known as Easter Eggs. But there's substantial a difference between that and alleging that legal departments from large companies quoted on the stock market inject "joke" clauses into their agreements.

[OFSO]

Just think about all the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years.

Statement requires substantiation.

[mixture]

Statement requires substantiation.

I fail to comprehend why you and others are suddenly digging up this old thread from the grave.

I failed to see back then why I should waste my time on such stupid arguments as to why I should even have to remotely demonstrate why software should not remain the same for 20 years, and I still fail to see why I should waste my time now.

I suspect certain people here are just trying to be deliberately controversial. I didn't bite at such trolling then and I won't bite at such trolling now.

Over and out.

[Booglebox]

Apple and other corporate legal departments have better things to do with their time than to put in joke clauses into agreements.
Wrong. :hmm:
Check Out Apple's iOS 7 Terms & Conditions (PICTURE) (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/20/apple-ios7-spoof-terms-and-conditions_n_3960016.html)

Furthermore:
Stop spouting nonsense.
How dare you! I will spout whatever I like :}

[mixture]

Wrong.

No.

For a start.... shall I point you to the URL you just linked me to .....

apple-ios7-spoof-terms-and-conditions_n_3960016.html


My emphasis.

Or perhaps the credit under the photo ?

(Created for HuffPost UK Comedy by David Beresford, Gabby Hutchinson Crouch and Amanda Wilkie)


Again, my emphasis.

Do I need to embarrass you any further ? :E

[Booglebox]

Alright, fair cop :O

[airship]

Many thanks for your sympathy Capn Bloggs.

Subsequent to a conversation I had with our "IT man" who looks after the company's system (comprising 1 x server, 8 x PCs + accounting software) etc. on early Friday afternoon, I down-loaded Firefox (having also considered Google's Chrome and Apple's Safari). I did some rapid research online, and found that IBM recommended that Firefox be the standard browser that all their employees should have installed at work. So, the installation was rapid and entirely trouble-free which was a huge relief - all my IE8 connections, security settings, favourites etc. appear to have been taken into account. I was able to immediately check if I'd won anything on last Wednesday's lotto draw (2 EUR?!) and play the Euromillions on Friday (no, I was not the French national who won the EUR 70 million+ jackpot). :{

Our "IT man" also commented on my ca. 2003 DELL DIMENSION XPS hardware (Pentium 4-266Mhz-512MB RAM expandable to 1024MB): Absolutely no point trying to upgrade to Windows 7 (any version of - I asked if he might have some licenses that he might have recovered or have spare for sale, no) on this hardware. In his experience, even Windows 7 needs 2-4GB RAM to work well. And considers Windows 8 or 8.1 to be untested and too recent to have much to say about these (other than 8 being a complete disaster, verdict out on 8.1) other than to affirm that you'd need a very recent PC equipped with a min. of 4GB RAM for either to work satisfactorily. And didn't think that DELL's recent offers (around EUR 4-500 excl. VAT for their lowest-priced office PCs) were worth considering from a hardware point-of-view. Of course he might say that, as 5 out of the 8 PCs in our office are old and still running XP PRO. He's prepared a quotation for their replacement before April 2014, perhaps I could "wangle-in" one for use at home into that...?! :ok:

PS. Still using IE8 for PPRuNe though. (I "checked" the necessary box concerning whether or not Firefox should be my "default browser". So now have 3 web browsers available (MS IE8, customised IE7 supplied by the ISP and Firefox) and pinned to the start menu. I don't consider them as wives (or I a Muslim). I prefer France's President Hollande's version - they're just concubines (unlimited in numbers under Islam and apparently also as 1st ladies in France)... ;)

[KBPsen]

You know Mixture, your relationship with and reaction to anything not overly positive about Apple is thoroughly unnatural and unhealthy.

It is just not normal behaviour.

[mixture]

You know Mixture, your relationship with and reaction to anything not overly positive about Apple is thoroughly unnatural and unhealthy.

Fact of the matter is, I don't mind if people have bad things to say about Apple. But those things must be genuine.... not just jumping on the Apple-bashing bandwagon, spewing out unsubstantiated nonsense .... or even, in the case of the most recent example, trying to pass off a blatant spoof as the real thing.

The simple truth is that most Apple bashers here are just doing so because its the fashionable thing to do, and not because they have any genuine issue to report.

Finally, please, don't try to portray me as some sort of deluded Apple fan, I am not. I use all four major platforms..... Windows, Mac, Linux and BSD (i.e. over and above than Apple OS X BSD) .... so I'm well aware of the pros and cons of each, thank you very much.

[OFSO]

There's an excellent article on post-April XP use, by Rick Maybury in today's Saturday Telegraph. Page 12 of the Business Section.

It confirms what many professionals* have said to me over the past months.

*Professionals without an axe to grind, BTW., so probably not contributing to this particular thread.

I still fail to see why I should waste my time now

I only asked WHAT are the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years ?

FYI, I have a PC running XP tied to the usual peripherals and a WIN8 laptop, ditto, side by side on my desk, both up and running, I use both, and I cannot see any effects of supposed "great developments" between the two since both do what I want to do in a comparable time (since most of what I do is on the Cloud which means I'm tied to the speed of the shared WiMax link)....unless you mean the touchscreen (which I don't use).

Of course if you are going to mention portable computing such as phones, pads, tablets etc. I agree with you wholeheartedly - but that wasn't to what I was referring.

[Booglebox]

trying to pass off a blatant spoof as the real thing
that was a genuine mistake :uhoh:
Also you should listen to KBPsen, and take a more objective view of criticism of Apple stuff. Others have had experiences with it that you haven't had :cool:

Anyway, airship: your IT chap seems to know what he's talking about, more-or-less.
I don't know what country you're in, but it might make sense to buy refurbished machines from the UK via eBay, e.g. here (http://www.pprune.org/www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331033644089). These will run 7 just fine.
You won't have warranty support etc. but as they are so cheap, you can just buy a couple extra as spares.

[mixture]

I only asked WHAT are the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years ?

Okay.... well, we can start with anything internet, email and voice over IP related.

Whether it's backend stuff like the vast changes from simple static HTML 3.2 pages to the modern HTML5/CSS/AJAX driven sites.

Or Skype which emerged out of nowhere in 2003, and by 2011 widespread enough for Microsoft to reckon it was worth writing out a cheque for $8.5 billion.

Or we could look at the vast improvements in the Apple platform from the old PowerPC and OS 7/8/9 to the present Intel and OS X platform (OS X has undergone an amazing transformation itself from its original 10.0 to the present, incredibly powerful 10.9).

Alternatively, we could look at hardware.... which has reduced in size and yet is faster and more efficient than could ever have been imagined.

The developments in the last 20 years are simply too innumerable to list.

Others have had experiences with it that you haven't had

Given I've been using Macs since the days of the SE series and OS 7.1, and have used pretty much all of their hardware and operating system software in-between (including clones and Be), I think I've had more than enough experience with the platform to know it inside out.

So by all means present me with conflicting viewpoints, all I ask is that you do your homework first, otherwise you risk being rebutted with varying degrees of force depending on the stupidity of the unsubstantiated viewpoint proposed ! :E

The Apple platform is by no means perfect, no platform is, there is no such thing as perfection in IT, nor is there really such a thing as one thing being better than another in IT. However the Apple platform is exceedingly far from being the bug ridden, insecure, locked-down, evil platform that many here have enjoyed making it out to be over the years...

[Pelikal]

A few weeks back I was in the local Tesco store and I noticed one of the staff terminals booting up. I don't mean the tills, I mean those terminals that are dotted around the store for staff use.

I was a little surprised to see it booting up with XP Pro. A few days later my curiosity got the better of me and I asked a young chap if indeed they were running XP Pro and he replied yes. He had no idea about the coming support issue.

There must be thousands of these machines just in the UK. I'm just curious how the organisation would approach this. Just curious!

[mixture]

There must be thousands of these machines just in the UK. I'm just curious how the organisation would approach this. Just curious!

Chalk and cheese between the common home user (and SME businesses) and big business/government, broadly six reasons :

(a) The latter can afford to write Microsoft a big fat cheque after April in order to continue receiving support and updates on XP for a limited period of time (even they can't continue paying forever ... I think the programme's going to run for 3 years).

(b) They have a substantial IT department (there will be people there whose sole job it is to deal with desktop systems and no other part of the IT estate..... maybe even one or two people who only deal with XP systems on the estate).

(c) As a result of (b) The systems are locked down tight on the corporate domain.

(d) The machines will either be on a separate VLAN with no internet access, or on a VLAN with internet access but which is heavily filtered upstream by corporate security infrastructure (e.g. emails are heavily vetted on their servers, web browsing is filtered elsewhere on the network etc.).

(e) Further to (d), they probably run IDS and IPS systems on their networks so they can detect and act on intrusions and infections.

(f) With the possible exception of point of sale tills which may run a little longer, there is no doubt an upgrade rollout programme in place for general IT infrastructure .... the fact that the average employee in the branch knows nothing about it is no surprise... the only people will know scheduling are HQ, the IT department and the branch manager.

Basically, in a corporate environment, desktops (and other end-user devices) are treated as dumb, unsafe, readily disposable and replaceable. Anything important is saved (files) or done (filtering, security etc.) elsewhere.

There is also a trend amongst certain types of corporates towards a new BYOD (Bring Your Own Device) where the corporate provides the infrastructure, and the employee brings the laptop/desktop/iPad to do their work on. This obviously only really works for environments where there is a large roaming or teleworker employee population, and also requires modern thinking on the part of the IT department (in addition to a wholesale rethinking and reconfiguration of security). Don't see it being a thing for Tesco given they are on a HQ and branch model. But its an interesting development no doubt (Shell were one of the surprising early adopters a few years ago as part of the Jericho Forum which they founded).

Due to lack of budget and manpower, life is different at home and in an SME, and why it is utterly unacceptable to run obsolete software that may have a substantial security impact (i.e. Operating Systems, Web Browsers, Email Clients etc.). Operating Systems being more dangerous than all others due to their being the foundation of all other security..... poor foundations = no security.

[Pelikal]

mixture, thanks for reply, I was just a little curious.

[mixture]

No worries... happy to sort out curious minds. :cool:

[le Pingouin]

OFSO, Are you referring to this article? Will my XP computer cease working? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/advice/10610643/Will-my-XP-computer-cease-working.html)

I'm neither a computer professional nor have an axe to grind but the logic behind saying continuing to use WinXP is okay defeats me. Personally my preferred OS is Linux but I routinely use Windows and less frequently OS X. I don't care what you use as long as it's supported.

To go from imploring users to install security updates ASAP to saying "she'll be right" (to use the Aussie vernacular) just because security updates are no longer being produced post April makes no sense.

I particularly liked this claim: "hackers and crackers are much more interested in finding loopholes in later versions of Windows".

You've got to be joking. With an "estimated 20 to 25 percent of PC users still using XP" who won't be getting security updates, you're the low hanging fruit of security issues. You'll be perpetually vulnerable to any security flaw that comes along after April. If you don't think the black hats don't have a few saved up especially I've got a bridge to sell at a special price just for you.

Someone should tell Mr Maybury that MSE will be receiving updates on WinXP until July 2015:
Microsoft antimalware support for Windows XP - Microsoft Malware Protection Center - Site Home - TechNet Blogs (http://blogs.technet.com/b/mmpc/archive/2014/01/15/microsoft-antimalware-support-for-windows-xp.aspx)

[mixture]

You've got to be joking. With an "estimated 20 to 25 percent of PC users still using XP" who won't be getting security updates, you're the low hanging fruit of security issues. You'll be perpetually vulnerable to any security flaw that comes along after April. If you don't think the black hats don't have a few saved up especially I've got a bridge to sell at a special price just for you.

Agree 100%.

I reckon that's exactly what the dark side are doing. Holding back on releasing exploits now, because they know after D-Day they can charge premium prices because they will effectively be selling guaranteed perpetual zero-day exploits.

[Mac the Knife]

Microsoft are in a bit of a cleft stick (partly of their own making).

XP was a good OS for it's time but by default very light on security - it just isn't safe in todays world even if locked down.

The problem for Microsoft is that 500 million people are still running it for a multiplicity of reasons - they have old machines that won't run a more modern OS that they can't afford to upgrade (I'm looking at you Granny!), they can't afford and/or know how to upgrade and they may be running old applications that depend on XP's quirks.

MS, quite rightly, see no reason to keep on supporting an aged OS that stops people buying their latest offerings. And there are significant limits to securing XP on ageing hardware.

But the problem is that by stopping security patches they expose a very large number of users to exploits, which may well result in a huge number of pwned/botnet machines that could bring the internet to it's knees... You have to look at the larger picture.

MS is kind of damned if they do and damned if they don't!

A difficult problem!

Mac

[Add of course the seemingly unstoppable Mac onslaught, the slow evolution of Linux into more user friendly incarnations like Mint and Chrome OS, the remarkable rise of Android and Microsoft have a lot to worry about]

:E

[FullOppositeRudder]

Thank you Mac - an excellent and realistic assessment of how it is, and how it might be.

I've installed dual boot options for Linux for online work on three of my XP machines which need XP for essential if occasional work in applications where there are no post XP or Linux alternatives.

I've got to admit that Ubuntu has come a long way since I last installed it, and Linux Mint is very attractive (thanks to those who suggested it). However both installations required me to switch to geek mode to complete the process. This is potentially a barrier to the computer illiterate masses who might be advised to go the Linux way.

Interesting times.

[occasional]

Given the enthusiasm for new technology on this board I had to laugh at this (in the Independent):


Ex-BBC boss Mark Thompson apologises to MPs and public over wasting £100m on digital archive.....

The MPs heard from Dominic Coles, the BBC’s Director of Operations ................... He said that the £125m digital archive, which was intended to serve the entire organisation, was so “clunky” that it was ten times slower than the 40-year-old system it was designed to replace

[P.Pilcher]

Thanks for the information F.O.R and others. I have now burned my Ubuntu ad Ubuntu mint DVDs, My new hard drive has arrived so I shall shortly be cloning my original hard drive onto this, putting it in my machine and installing some version of Linux. I just hope that the Geekiness needed to get it running is not too severe.

P.P.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Take heart - my experiences mentioned above did not involve serious surgery, and from previous forays into the Linux world I was able to emerge triumphant.

The challenges were getting the disk partition mix correct in the Mint installation, and installing the wireless driver for the new Ubuntu in my Lenovo S10. A few lines of command line work was required for this bit - based on some internet research where someone else had been there before and was kind enough to share.

I'm sure your installation will work out well. :ok:

FOR