Logging Hours

[Pass your message]

A friend is taking me up next week . Can I log the hours as P2?

[S-Works]

ROFL......:=

[FREDAcheck]

Not unless it's an aircraft requiring 2 crew.

[Local Variation]

No, but you can log the hours as ME2.

[RTN11]

Looking at your past posts, you have a PPL, so should seriously know this stuff! Absolutely unbelievable that you actually have to ask!

If it's purely a friend that is taking you up as a passenger, there is nothing you can log. Some people like to put these flights in their logbook just so they have something to look back on, but it has no purpose for granting or renewing any licence or rating.

If he were an instructor and it was all through a school, perhaps you could log P/UT, if it were a lesson, but then what on earth would he be teaching you?

A single crew aircraft has P1, and that's it. Save the rest until you reach actual multi crew.

[phiggsbroadband]

Just reminds me of a Youth Hostel Tandem trip we did around North Wales, when I was in my teens.


I had to re-do the brakes before the trip and could not get a long enough brake cable to reach from the front to the back wheel. So I used an ordinary cycle cable and put the rear brake lever on the rear handlebars... It all worked Ok as long as P1 instructed P2 when to apply the rear brake.


However we got to a long steep mountain pass, and the speed steadily increased... We zoomed past several motorists, then saw a sign saying 'Beware Steep Hill 1:6 ahead'. I said 'Pip, put on the rear brake'.. he said it had been on all the way... OOOH... So, as we had lost the front mudguard previously, I applied my foot to the front tyre and we came to a smokey halt just before the very steep bit., and the two cars overtook us once more.


Perhaps if you were to control the Right Rudder whilst your mate had the Left one, then that would count... but maybe not.

[YODI]

Give the guy a break, I'd rather he asked and found out than didn't, logged it and got a slapped wrist from the Caa or an examiner.

In short no you cant, single Pilot Aircraft your friend is the Captain and you are just watching :)

[flybymike]

Usual patronising prune response from some above.
Ask a civil question, receive a mocking answer.

[S-Works]

Usual patronising prune response from some above.
Ask a civil question, receive a mocking answer.

One of the responsibilities you have for the privilege of holding a licence to fly is to understand the very regulation that governs is it. The question asked was one of the most fundamental questions that every pilot should know and is asked with despondent frequency.

The use of the search engine would have prevented mocking, therefore it would not be unreasonable for many of us to treat the question as a troll from someone looking to have a bit of mischief.......

[FREDAcheck]

Throw him a bone, guys!

Yes, he should have known - but if this is the first time the situation has ever occurred for him or her, perhaps they just forgot or maybe never read that bit.

Very few people of my acquaintance have ever been killed as a result of logging P2 time for an SEP.

[RTN11]

I'd rather he asked and found out than didn't, logged it and got a slapped wrist from the Caa or an examiner.

There will be no slap on the wrist, you can write what you want in the logbook, it's only when he tried to use a bunch of P2 hours for revalidating his SEP, or as hours towards his CPL that he will find his application is rejected, and it will cost him more money to sort it out.

Rather the darwin principle of Aviation Law, it's all written down, and if you can't read it and understand it, then it costs you money in the long run.

Just like the numerous times I've been at the CAA head office waiting at the public counter desk hearing applications being rejected as they waited too long since passing the test to submit the paperwork, and the pass has now expired.

This is all pretty basic stuff, it's beyond me how people can't grasp it :ugh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Personally I write such flights in my logbook, nothing in the totals, then in the comments column "passenger" or "passenger handling controls" if I got to fly a bit.

G

[Big Pistons Forever]

This subject comes up regularly. Almost seems like someone like GE ought to do a sticky with all the relevant points on logging time and the definition and differences of PIC, a PUT, and PICUS

[cockney steve]

Slasher would have considered "logging time" as the amount of time he spent squatting in the Dunny. :E

[maximus610]

Agree with BPF, such a sticky will help pilots and will spare time discussing the same questions to death.

Hope GE will also make one on professional pilot training forum.

[Jan Olieslagers]

someone like GE ought to

A bit easy, isn't it? Who keeps you from doing it yourself? Good old GtE manages his own resources, to very good effect IMHO.

[S-Works]

Jesus Christ.... Why are you relying on another pilot to do the work for you? You're required to know the rules that you fly under. Go look it up yourselves......

[YODI]

Its a discussion forum, people discuss things.

I agree he should knoe but why witch hunt over a daft Q.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Presumably somebody like GtE, except that that person is still a moderator, so can make stickies.

Although to be fair, it could be anybody who has actually read the PPL air law book, their country's air navigation order or equivalent, the instructions in the front of their logbook....

G

[FREDAcheck]

While logging P2 in a Cessna, can I be paid for flying the plane? Only I've got this really clever contorted scheme that I'm sure allows a PPL to be paid for flying...

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Although to be fair, it could be anybody who has actually read the PPL air law book, their country's air navigation order or equivalent, the instructions in the front of their logbook....
One might be beginning to wonder whether the difference between "learning air law as applied to the PPL holder" and "memorising the question bank so as to pass the exam" might be significant.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A bit easy, isn't it? Who keeps you from doing it yourself? .

Well I live and fly in Canada (as my profile clearly shows) so I am not terribly up on the nuances of UK/EASA Air Law......

[ShyTorque]

Just like the numerous times I've been at the CAA head office waiting at the public counter desk hearing applications being rejected as they waited too long since passing the test to submit the paperwork, and the pass has now expired.

RTN11,

Are you telling us you keep on having to go back there?

[S-Works]

Are you telling us you keep on having to go back there?

Unfortunatly a lot of us do. When you had type and Class ratings as part of the job it often means a visit down there. I have 14 on my licence, that's a lot of visits.

[RTN11]

Indeed, sometimes the commercial aspect of being able to earn money from a rating straight away by going to Gatwick for the day just makes more sense than waiting for the post.

Getting my FI(A) rating issued, getting the restriction removed, getting the no night restriction removed, getting the no applied instruments restriction removed, getting the no aerobatics removed, and then getting my type rating issued.

They're very friendly, and it's a pretty good breakfast, but almost every time they're telling some poor soul that their paper work isn't in order and the rating cannot be issued without further training or a retest, and no amount of phone calls to FTOs or faxing of extra paper work will change that.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@BPF: you have a valid point there, apologies if I sounded as rough as I felt at that time. Even so, there's more than one around here well acquainted with the UK ANO, really no need to single out Genghis.

[piperboy84]

I assume your not allowed to, the following accident report shows how much stock professional investigators put into padded/fudged logbook hours. Although not the cause of the crash they highlight the bull**** hours for a reason I,d guess they feel if he cut corners on his hours what else was he up to


Untitled Page (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20060925X01389&ntsbno=DEN06FA132&akey=1)

[RTN11]

they highlight the bull**** hours for a reason I,d guess they feel if he cut corners on his hours what else was he up to

Where on earth are you getting that from?

I find no inference that his hours are bull****, just a simple statement of fact as with all these reports.

Last logbook entry was March 2005 showing 416 hours total time
At medical in March 2006 he said he had 1500 hours
So that would be 1100 hours in a year.

To me, this doesn't sound like bull**** hours, just very poor record keeping, which I must say I'm guilty of myself. Just because no further records existed, doesn't mean that he didn't actually have say 1000 hours at the time of his medical, but due to his poor record keeping he had no idea how many hours he had so just took a stab at a number and said 1500.

This report is making no assumptions or conclusions at all, you're the only one speculating.

[piperboy84]

The logbooks also showed recorded "second-in-command" time in a BE-55.

This is what I was referring to

[RTN11]

That was in a twin, which the accident pilot wasn't even rated to fly, so I would assume the same situation as the OP, going up with a friend and wanting to log something. Not at all relevant to the accident.

I'd say there's nothing too wrong with keeping a log for interest, as looking back over old logbooks is great fun, but you need to be clear that even if you write anything down it can't be used for anything, be it hour building for CPL, or towards revalidation of SEP or any other rating, it is purely for your own interest, so if you write anything in make that clear. Most people do this by not writing anything in the total time column, so it never affects the totals at the bottom of the page.

[piperboy84]

Not sure about this one,

Total time claimed on march 2006 is 1500, with just over 300 pic up to march 2005 with 300 being claimed in the 6 months prior to march 2006 which would leave approximately 900 hours for the six months from march thru September 2005 which works out at 5 hours a day every day for 6 months straight of private flying ( if it was commercial for hire the ntsb could have viewed the part 135 ops log records)

Certainly a very keen flyer.