Blue Silk,Green Satin and Orange Harvest.

[manxterberg]

Hi lads.
When in the RAF in the 60s I worked in the Electronic Stores Group at RAF Changi S'pore,1964-66. There were some matched sets of Radar gear,three pieces to a set,one was called Blue Silk with two dome shaped items on a deck and the other Green Satin with two pillar shaped pieces on a deck.Both came with two other pieces,one of which was an Altimeter type instrument,but I can't remember what the other piece of the matched sets were. I seem to recall the Blue Silk was for Shackletons and maybe Hastings and the Green Satin for Argosys and Transport Command Comets and Britannias.Did they correct drift - like if the A/C is heading due north with a westerly wind then the compass would still show north but the A/C would be blown to the right and not on course? When I was at RAF Scampton there was another piece of equipment called Orange Harvest,for the Vulcans but nobody would tell me what it was for in 1967. Alongside all this sophisticated equipment in the ESG at Scampton was "Chaff" in bales which they used in WW2.I also remember some equipment at Changi called CCWR - commonly known by the ARSF lads as "cloud and clonk". was this anti-collision radar,like Doppler?
Can anybody shed some light on this equip as it must be redundant now.

Chris.

[mally35]

Just enter Green Satin into Google. All is revealed.:)

[pmills575]

Green Satin was a doppler radar that provided the Nav with true groundspeed and drift.
Blue Silk was a doppler radar giving the same information as Satin but was designed to operate over water. Hence it's fiitment to the Shackleton

CCWR (Cloud Collision Warning Radar), not a doppler, was a generic term for this type of radar, the RAF used mostly MEL (Echo) versions i.e. E190, 290 etc

Orange Harvest (ESM) was only carried by Shackletons, the most obvious sign was the "spark plug" aerial system on the top of the centre fuselage. This was part of two almost independent systems classified as wide band and narrow band. The origins of this are from a piece of equiment carried by 51 squadron Comets called Breton 1 and 3 qtrs. It was a attempt to provide information on the direction of local radar emitters in one of two bands S and X (old classification).

pm575

[ian16th]

Green Satin was fitted to all 3 V Bombers and some marks of Canberra, definitly the PR9 and Britania's.

Blue Silk was the later 'improved' system covered a wider spectrum of ground speed than Green Satin. It was fitted to the Canberra B-15' at Akrotiri circa 1962-4.

I manned the Green Satin bench at Akrotiri for two years, 1962-64.

[Tankertrashnav]

Green Satin was fitted on the Victor (and I assume the other two V's)*. The aerial type was known as a "Janus array" after the Roman god, as it was alternately "looking" forward and backward to measure the doppler shift. As I recall it was removed sometime c. 1974 and replaced by a more modern bit of kit whose name I forget, but which was smaller, lighter and more efficient than Green Satin.

*Thanks for the confirmation, Ian, you answered the question before I posted it!

[manxterberg]

Thanks for the information everybody:ok:. I remember now that Orange Harvest was stored at Changi for the Shackleton Sqns. and I remember the "spark plug" on the top. It must have been some other coded piece of equip that I dealt with at Scampton.:rolleyes:

Chris

[ZH875]

As I recall it was removed sometime c. 1974 and replaced by a more modern bit of kit whose name I forget, but which was smaller, lighter.........!

Decca Doppler 72M IIRC

[Rev1.5]

Green Satin was still fitted to the Victor K2s when I had the "pleasure" of working on them in the late '80s!

Great fun lugging the dustbins in and out of the "back hatch".... NOT!
All 3 Green Satin LRUs had to be replaced as a match set.

As far as I know it was not replaced or upgraded.

"Lusty Lindy" seems to still have Green Satin, the indicator is centre left:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=583351121723297&set=o.9150227579&type=3&theater

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the reminder ZH785

That'd odd Rev 1. I was only ever on K1's, and I'm sure I didnt imagine the doppler update. Strange that the K2s didnt get the same treatment, especially as they were being converted to tankers around that time (mid 70s) and having extensive work done on them.

[ColinB]

See the Green Satin aerial array working in someone's lounge

Green Satin - Avro Vulcan Radar. - YouTube

[NRU74]

What did Yellow Aster 'do' ?
Was it part of,or linked to, the H2S ?
(You'd think I'd know having been on 543 - but it was 50 yrs ago)

[ancientaviator62]

Towards the end some of our Hastings were fitted with Blue Silk. A real pain on airdrop and with a tendency to emit smoke !

[Airey Belvoir]

The V force was a very colourful set-up. Not only the above mentioned but also Red Steer, Yellow Sun, Blue Danube......and the list goes on.


Kind of foreshadowed the "rainbow" leanings that the RAF appears to have taken on nowadays http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

[Phalconphixer]

Was posted to M.E.A.S at Waddo as a newly qualified LAC, L.Mech AC back in 1967 and on my first full day in the hangar was introduced to the Flight Sergeant (initials H.B) who ran the hanger Avionics section.

"Right lad", he said, "on that shelf you will find all of the A.P's relating to the Vulcan's avionics fit; take a couple of days to familiarise yourself with the equipment, it's componenets, and its location on the aircraft. When you think you know where evrything is, come see me and show me." In awe of this F/Sgt who later turned out to be much more than just a father figure, I determined that I would do just that.

The STR18B HF, TR1984/5 VHF and ARC52 UHF radios were located along with their various sub-units, controllers and aerials, likewise the ILS system (anyone remember B.I.L.S?), the old AD7092D Radio Compass, the location of all of the units for the Intercom system, everything I had been taught at Cosford fell victim to my newwly acquired Sherlock Holmes investigations.

Satisfied that there was nothing he could throw at me to catch me out, I reported back to the F/Sgt.

"Right then," says he... "now show me." He threw a whole load of questions my way regarding the locations and functions of the various boxes and aerials and sure enough I passed, as I thought with flying colours...

"OK... but what about the ECM?"

"E.C. what?" says I..."Sorry Flight Sergeant, but I havent a clue what you are talking about..."

We descended from the flight deck and he put an arm around my shoulders...

"This way, young fella," he said leading me to the bulbous back end of the aircraft...

He opened up the hatches of the bulge to reveal what to me appeard to be a load of black dustbins of various sizes with numerous electical connections and hosepipes attached...

"This, my son, is ECM, the bane of our lives as Air Radio folks... Electronic Counter Measures, Jammers, Spoofers call 'em what you will but this is what you will be spending 95% of your time changing..."

We went back to the section and he made a phone call and a few minutes later we visited the Electronics Service Centre and the high security ECM bay where he introduced me to the Chief Tech (initials D.T.) who in turn introduced me to the guys who worked in there. After what seemed a never ending stream of paperwork and me signing yet another copy of the Official Secrets Act, I was given an introductory lesson on ECM, what it was, what it did, how it did it and the dire consequences of letting this information be known to anyone else...

I spent the next three months in that bay... un-canning (removing and cleaning the covers from the same dustbins I had seen earlier), basic maintenance on Green Palm, Blue Diver, and various other rainbow named equipments, running Magnetrons on the huge test rig (and experiencing first hand the painful shocking results of what happens when the main earth clip fails...), then fiiting and greasing up new seals before re-canning and final testing of the newly serviced equipment. I disliked every moment of my time in that bay; great blokes but a totally sh*t job... the original version of 'its a dirty job son but someones gotta do it..!'

Back in the MEAS hangar the boss was right... hardly a sortie went by without at least one of the dustbins needing to be replaced. I lost count of the number of overalls I got through and the number of showers I had to take as a result of the partial failure of those damn glycol coolant pipes... and don't get me started on the rear crew under the table sub components of the STR18B HF Kit and the rear crew relief bottles stowed on hooks also beneath the table... Nasty!

[ian16th]

Wiki has a list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rainbow_Codes

I know that it is incomplete as it is missing Blue Shadow, the sideways looking, bog roll display, mapping radar that was fitted to 51 Sqdn Canberra's and Comets.
We had a bench for it at Akrotiri.

[ian16th]

Rev 1.5
All 3 Green Satin LRUs had to be replaced as a match set. This was a change from after my time.

The 'double humped' unit was the Tx/Rx and the 'single hump' was the Tracker Unit. Each could be changed individually.

Before my tour at Akrotiri, I was on 214 Sqdn with Valiants for nearly 4 years and changed many of them. Including once on a night shift I managed to change the Tx/Rx on my own. It was a hell of a struggle, it was over 100lbs, and I think I put my back out :sad:

Also while on 214, when we started training Vulcan crews to do In Flight Refuelling, we had a Vulcan visit Marham. Because the Vulcan Sqdn OC was coming to see out OC, Air Traffic sent the a/c to our dispersal.

This of course was quite an event and we all gathered round to look at the strange beast. When the crew got out there was a call for a 'radar guy'. They had a Green Satin snag, from the discussion with the Nav, it seemed to be a Tx/Rx problem, so we asked guy; 'Where in this quarter of an acre of airframe is it?'

It turned out to be in the port wing! There apparantly was a special winch to lower the entire Green Satin, but of course we being a Valiant Sqdn didn't have one!

With 4 guys on a saftey raiser, we got the panel off, unfastened the mounting screws and man handled it out, but we couldn't put it down as this would have damaged the Aerial Array. Somehow we struggeled and got the Tx/Rx off and replace it and managed not to have anyone fall of the raiser.

Happy Daze ;)

[alisoncc]

IIRC there was blue trolley rig that we would lower it on to. Had wheels to enable it to be pushed around the hangar, and spigots that took the mounting brackets. Thus holding it semi-securely well off the ground. Remember taking one for a long walk, no Landrover available, from the strip, across and along miles of peri track back to the hangar. RAF Finningley circa 1963.

[reynoldsno1]

As I recall it was removed sometime c. 1974
... and fitted in the 6FTS Varsties. Wasn't really designed to operate at 100kt groundspeeds, so it unlocked all the bloody time ....:sad:

[WIDN62]

It unlocked on the Britannia whenever over relatively smooth sea. As our regular route, where we really required it, was Bahrain - Gan - Changi, it unlocked a lot!

[ian16th]

Flying over smooth water was the worst condition for Green Satin/Blue Silk.

The design depended upon the signal being reflected back from the earths surface. Because this signal was transmitted forwards and backwards, it needed a 'rough' surface to send a reflection back. Over smooth water the signal simply 'skipped' away from the a/c.

The performance Akrotiri based a/c flying over the Med was far worse than my experience with Marham based a/c. Mind you, my 'main customer' was 13 Sqdn with Can PR9's that I believe flew slightly higher than 214's Valiant's. :cool:

In some instances the aircrew declined to tell me at what height the equipment did unlock!

Both the Green Satin and Blue Silk benches recieved many Tx/Rx's that were changed for 'Unlocking', that tested out fine on the bench.

The commonest 'real' problem with a Tx/Rx that was 'unlocking' was the Magnetron was shot.

[Blacksheep]

It must have been some other coded piece of equip that I dealt with at ScamptonOrange Putty? Named by a comedian with a passing knowledge of the Malay language.

I remember the Top Secret NBS Bay at Waddington.
On the cinema at the time we had James Bond with all sorts of fancy gear on show at SMERSH HQ. The real thing was a more British "shambolic, but it works" sort of arrangement.. . .

One had to press the buttons on the numeric pad outside the door to gain access. If you got the code sequence right, a green light came on inside the bay and someone would wander over to unlock the door and let you in. Get it wrong and you were in for a long stand.

The real security was at the "Special Weapons" section across the other side of the Sleaford Road. If the gate guard knew you he'd let you in. If he didn't he'd get an RAF Police dog handler to chase you away. Simples.

[JW411]

The Grey Rexine in the Belfast wasn't all that effective either.

[India Four Two]

blacksheep,

Orange Putty? Named by a comedian with a passing knowledge of the Malay language.


I suppose you worked on the Kambing Hitam equipment? :)

[Dan Winterland]

Green Satin was definitely fitted to the Victor K2s up to the end of their life in 1993. The control box you see in the picture of Lusty Lindy is actually the GPI Mk4 - a Doppler resolver which gave drift, speed and a fairly inaccurate guestimate of Lat/Long produced on a analogue cogs and gears mechanism which was powered by a hamster running around a wheel and fed by information from Green Satin. I can vouch it was next to useless over a clam sea.

The Victor B2s (bombers) had the GPI Mk6 which was powered by two hamsters and I gather - much more accurate. It was probably fed by the previously mentioned Decca Doppler. When the Victor B2s were converted to K2s, they got their Mk4s and Green Satins back - probably because they were used to keep the Vulcan fleet suitably equipped and because someone decided that tanker crews didn't need to know where they were. (I rarely did - and wasn't overly concerned!)

I can vouch for the fact the system was next to friggin' useless and a massive waste of money, time and resources. The Navigators hardly referred to it, particularly as the tankers spent most of their working life over water. I remember one flight in particular from Marham to Goose Bay where the GPI was confidently informing us we had arrived in Ougadougou.

[alisoncc]

The commonest 'real' problem with a Tx/Rx that was 'unlocking' was the Magnetron was shot. Trying to remember was it Green Satin where you had to use a long copper bladed screwdriver to tweak the Klystron. If you used one with a normal steel blade the moment you got close to the Klyston the magnet on the maggie would pull it over on to it's EHT, and zap you found yourself on the other side of the room. Happy times.

[Fitter2]

Trying to remember was it Green Satin where you had to use a long copper bladed screwdriver to tweak the Klystron. If you used one with a normal steel blade the moment you got close to the Klyston the magnet on the maggie would pull it over on to it's EHT, and zap you found yourself on the other side of the room.

Remember it well. We had the Command Heavyweight Boxing champion on my Fitters' Course. He achieved the above rather spectacularly, bounced off the opposite wall and came out fighting. The rest of the room moved out of his way even faster than NAAFI van call.

By the way, the little (and pretty useless) tail warning kit was Orange Putter (any other examples of golf related nomenclature?)

[ian16th]

Trying to remember was it Green Satin where you had to use a long copper bladed screwdriver to tweak the Klystron.

My memory says tuning the Klystron was a delicate fingers job.

But it was half a century ago so my memory could be shot. :sad:

[ian16th]

By the way, the little (and pretty useless) tail warning kit was Orange Putter A driving mirror would have been a better bet in most conditions.

When on detachment to Karachi, I had to admit to a driver (airframe) that it was beyond my capabillity to adjust the 'Wings Range', to something none standard, while the kit was fitted to the rear end of his Canberra.

[denachtenmai]

ian16th
Blue Shadow, the sideways looking, bog roll display, mapping radar that was fitted to 51 Sqdn Canberra's and Comets.
Ah, ARI 5888 IIRC :8, the bane of my life when the bl**dy Nav's wouldn't change the writing bar and insisted on adjusting the thing, which then cut the paper, so they adjusted it some more :ugh: then snagged it upon landing.

pmills575
Breton 1 and 3 qtrs
Not heard that designation for a long time, brings back memories :)
Regards, Den.

[ColinB]

Trying to remember was it Green Satin where you had to use a long copper bladed screwdriver to tweak the Klystron
I suggest it was Blue Silk which had a klystron transmitter and Green Satin was driven by a magnetron

[denachtenmai]

ColinB
I suggest it was Blue Silk which had a klystron transmitter and Green Satin was driven by a magnetron
I think the klystron was the LO for the magnetron in G/Satin.
Regards, Den.

[Sleeve Wing]

A fascinating thread from the dim and distant.
I recollect Blue Silk and Green Satin from my days flying the Scimitar (early sixties) and the inadequacies with smooth water surfaces. Early Radalts had a similar problem I seem to remember.
Nav then was still easier track crawling over a Half Mil. at just less than a thumb a minute !

One other that has not been mentioned was Violet Picture IIRC. Can any of you techies fill me in on that ?

Edit : Thanks, ian16th. re: Wikipedia Rainbow Codes. Should pay more attention…….!
Yep, Violet Picture was a form of UHF Homer. Never flew an aircraft so fitted. Can you tell me more ? Thx. :confused:

[ian16th]

denatchtenmai

Yes the klystron was the LO on GS, and I honestly belive that it was the same on BS.

I still have my course notes and circuit diagrams from my 1958 GS course! Though since a house move in June, I can't lay hands on them.

WRT Blue Shadow, I never worked on it, but we had a bench at Akrotiri for when 51 came visiting. I remember stories of the heat sensitive paper catching fire on occasions. Were these true or urban myths?

[denachtenmai]

ian
As far as I can remember (from 8 years on 51) there was never a case of the paper roll igniting, it was impregnated with a heat sensitive liquid and quite damp when in use, but it couldn't be used again after opening, so if the trip was a short one then any remaining had to be thrown away and it dried out quite quickly, especially in a hot climate.
Regards, Den.

[ColinB]

I still have my course notes and circuit diagrams from my 1958 GS course! Though since a house move in June, I can't lay hands on them.
Perhaps they're in your anorak pocket but seriously I do recall Blue Silk being mounted on gimbals about 3 feet off the floor at Yatesbury. This led some students occasionally to discharge the 8KV Klystron PS through their thigh when they reached across it. Legend has it that a neat hole was drilled through the flesh of the thigh.

[JW411]

Violet Picture:

We had it in the Argosy; if you wanted to meet up with your buddy then you got hime to transmit on UHF (or hold down the 1,000 kc/s tone spring loaded switch provided) and then you could find him by following what looked like an old zero reader instrument (up/down - left/right). It worked very well.

[alisoncc]

My most prevalent memory of GS was constantly having to refasten the Dzus fasteners on the Vulcan aerial cover. They were always popping out.

A Crew Chief would wander passed and "suggest" that the Dzus's fasteners that were hanging needed to be done up. Invariably this involved standing on the starboard undercarriage wheels, hanging on to the undercarriage itself with one hand whilst stretching out with the other hand grasping a funny "penny washer" Dzus tool and turn the fastener whilst pushing upwards.

What made this so much fun was as often as not, the donks were running, the chocks may have been removed and the Captain would be holding the aircraft on the brakes, occasionally easing the aircraft forward, whilst yours truly was standing on the tyres.

[Blacksheep]

Known as "wheel dancing" - common order when disconnecting Simstart cables on QRA with B.Mk1As.

I think the Green Satin was on the port side. The AAPU was on the right.

[Lordflasheart]

Hey Sleevey -

If you had UHF in your Scimitar, you probably had Violet Picture - The standard Collins UHF AN/ARC-52 controller (the bit of the wireless that pilots were allowed to fiddle with) had a switch which read from L to R - "OFF - T/R - TR+G - ADF" When selected to ADF it activated a left right thingy somewhere in the cockpit that allowed a crude form of D/F on the UHF comms frequency in use. If it was centred, the aircraft was assumed to be pointing directly at (or directly away from) the transmitter you were trying to D/F.

If you'd lost the nav plot it was useful for finding Mother (or your tanker) unless they were in radio silence.

I don't know what D/F facility the Yanks had attached to their ARC-52. I assume us Brits were not permitted to fiddle with the basic radio kit and therefore our controllers looked exactly the same as theirs. However Plessey was allowed to make the Brit D/F component, called Violet Picture. It might have been a standalone kit attachable to any radio fit. In our case the relevant aerials were a pair of UHF blades side by side under the forward fuselage. In the case of the Buccaneer, in front of the nosewheel, and for the Scimitar, behind the nosewheel door.

The cockpit display for the Buccaneer used the L/R cross wire on the OR946 attitude indicator. No knowledge of the cockpit fit for the Scimitar, Vixen or Gannet but I imagine something suitable was used.

You did need to look in the cockpit. Didn't think you Day Fighter blokes did much of that. ;)


LFH

[ian16th]

Blacksheep,
I think the Green Satin was on the port side. Thanks for that.

I only ever worked on 1 Vulcan, on 1 occasion, to change the GS, and my memory said it was in the port wing. But it was just the once and so long ago,this thread raised doubts.

[alisoncc]

It's on the starboard side if you are lying upside down on a safety raiser. :)

[PierreM]

Victor B2
GS in the back hatch along with several ECM 'dustbins' Swapping the tray with the two domes was no great problem which was not the case for the back hatch itself. The Dzus fasteners were always a problem, needing a GS screwdriver and hide faced hammer to secure. The riggers were no help and the crew chief kept well away.. The GS aerial was below the back hatch floor, with a waveguide sticking up in a vulnerable place - never saw one damaged though.
Red Steer was the tail warning radar that replaced Orange Putter. If you want another 'colour' try Red Shrimp.
As mentioned above Blue Silk replaced GS for some roles, Slightly different depression angle for the radar beams and different frequency,,. . . . both changes intended to provide better performance over water..
Oh happy days ... driving an RVT with that woolly column gear change with most of a full kit of ECM bins in the back..