The AOA is falling apart [Archive]

plainpilot11

7th Dec 2013, 10:56

Union's/associations are only there to provide a false sense of security to the group. In my experience over the years in several different countries with several different unions, they are only an extension of the company itself. The graft and corruption run deeper than any think, unions, governments, companies. The only way for things to improve is to resign en masse, or to unify outside of a union message board. Those worthless boards have never produced any good change. It is another false sense of improvement. Venting on a board does nothing. The unity must come to the group outside of the association. The union is part of the problem. If it isn't evident now, after this complete leg sweep, you are truly blind.

Oasis

7th Dec 2013, 11:17

The AOA is not falling apart. Take a chill pill.
You sound like fox news.

nitpicker330

7th Dec 2013, 11:38

20 or so guys on the forum out of.......what 2,500 and you think it's falling apart!!

Still, interesting times.:sad:

cpdude

10th Dec 2013, 13:56

The AOA is not "falling apart", it's been broken for years. Get rid of the 3+1 (PV, PW, GDC and DD) and we may have a chance!

plainpilot11

11th Dec 2013, 11:19

How airline pilot negotiations really go. Don't worry CX pilots, with all of your divisions, this will be how it goes for you too. For some strange reason, as smart as pilots are, they NEVER learn.

Airline and Pilot Negotiation - YouTube

Sam Ting Wong

11th Dec 2013, 13:22

I rather think a few individuals' brain are falling apart.

AnAmusedReader

12th Dec 2013, 03:46

It's not falling apart, just needs re-directing. The more I think about it, the more I ask myself just what has DD done since he has been here?

superfrozo

12th Dec 2013, 05:16

Provided incredibly insightful and invaluable guidance, as to be expected from someone with a near-unparalleled experience in all things Aviation Industry related.

Including but not limited to:

- Bargaining Framework
- Negotiations techniques
- Contract construction and protections
- Media liaison
- Benchmarking
- Legal case construction
- Economic and accounting guidance...etc...

As usual, a PPrune arm chair expert thinks him/herself better than a veteran of the job. Are you John Cleese's character in this clip by any chance??

What have the Romans ever done for us - YouTube

Oval3Holer

12th Dec 2013, 05:18

- Bargaining Framework
- Negotiations techniques

I give you this and you give me that and if you don't I will... I will threaten to work according to my contract... Got that? Threaten! 'Cause if I actually work according to my contract then you'll punish me and I'll get nothing. So I'm gonna threaten you! :ugh:

superfrozo

12th Dec 2013, 10:36

You don't already do basic contract compliance? What a surprise.
I guess helping the Company out and slagging off dedicated professionals is just a hobby then.

routetuner

12th Dec 2013, 11:57

****. Has no idea

AnAmusedReader

13th Dec 2013, 02:04

A good list superfrozo.

Now write under each of your points exactly what he has achieved compared to what I have (not) seen:

- Bargaining Framework - what bargaining has resulted in anything?
- Negotiations techniques - again, what results?
- Contract construction and protections - what protection (apart from Canada where he spat the dummy and walked away)
- Media liaison - I don't see any great press for CX pilots
- Benchmarking - really?
- Legal case construction - FO Bypass, SHP? When does construction give a result?
- Economic and accounting guidance...etc... - I'm now lost for words.

AnAmusedReader

18th Dec 2013, 06:31

I'm still waiting superfrozo or don't you have a reply?

nitpicker330

18th Dec 2013, 09:20

Not worth replying to.:ugh:

AnAmusedReader

19th Dec 2013, 00:55

Who, soperfrozo or me?

He listed all the superlatives in defence of our illustrious leader and all I asked is for him to back it up with evidence. I'm not the only one asking these questions.

cxorcist

19th Dec 2013, 04:35

The evidence lies in the fact that the AOA has the best chance in decades to make up significant lost ground, not just on pay but working conditions as well. The naysayers will disagree, and they are right in that it could end up a real disaster as well. Our best weapon is not CC but high sickness rates. The company knows that if they don't strike a deal that the AOA membership sees as fair, then the sickness rates will remain the highest in the industry. So keep your expectations high and your productivity low.

I, for one, will not judge DD or anyone on the NC until I see what they can do in the coming months. They have the tools. I expect them to use them. Off soapbox...

crwkunt roll

19th Dec 2013, 04:52

Cool, all the "tools" the GC have will ensure that we do our 92 hours credit, for maybe 4% per year (maybe for 3 years)..... Still WAY BEHIND

airplaneridesrfun

21st Dec 2013, 10:06

The company paying our EO claim and finally signing an appropriately worded 25 year housing agreement would have been "good faith" items that we could have possibly postponed CC for. Instead, we have given into the company requiring officers to sign cos 08 to take a base because we achieved a very minuscule victory of not requiring BPP to be paid back. Maybe next time lets skip CC and go to MSS...... And only downgrade it if we get certain items... Like our 10 weeks leave back, and a normal 76 hour a month overtime threshold.

Instead, we now are being preached to by the union that PBS is good and we may have to give up some productivity....that is complete BS. Thee must be a common denominator in all of this and perhaps we should have an internal investigation in the AOA. Who has been in admin the longest? Who sold SLS and Cos 08 to begin with and why? Are they pushing forward the companies agenda today in the same way as before?

I'm with the AOA but wish we had hoffa's resolve. The 3rd floor is laughing at us right now.

cpdude

22nd Dec 2013, 14:45

Yes they are but a little bird tells me the AOAC won't let that happen and they have more power then many understand.

This is why we need to regroup with AOAC and not force our greatest asset to act alone. They are willing to work with us so what's our problem?

Before someone spews some vile about they can't be trusted, all sour grapes crafted by the HKAOA spin doctors, I urge you to look at ourselves and ask who within us can be 100% trusted?

This is who we are. A bunch of individuals each with our own ideas and visions of what "it should be". At least the AOAC works as one where we work as 1600 individuals!:ugh:

airplaneridesrfun

22nd Dec 2013, 20:57

The Aoac negotiates with SK. You are telling me that after separating they want back in? Yes, having the two groups together would be great..... Are you going on contract compliance with us? What about MSS? When you do that, you are welcome back with open arms imho. no excuses. Until that day, talk is cheap.

cpdude

22nd Dec 2013, 22:07

Interesting to see how successful CC and MSS will work for us if that's what is decided. Probably the same result as the last several attempts.

AnAmusedReader

23rd Dec 2013, 01:46

airplaneridesrfun, have you asked the onshored Aussies if they can do CC and MSS?

The answer is, just as for AOA C, No they can't - because both are bound by law not to join in another's dispute.

744drv

23rd Dec 2013, 03:06

CC is not joining in another's dispute. CC is not a militant action. Most employers would be glad to have their workforce upholding their side of the 'contract'!!

Threethirty

23rd Dec 2013, 05:41

If you told any pilot in British Airways what this whole fuss surrounding contract compliance involved he or she would look at you with shear bewilderment. The idea of going beyond what the contract entails is an alien concept to pilots in most airlines. The very fact that we have CC in our lexicon indicates what a bizarre corner we find ourselves in, it's as if we have been brainwashed over the years into thinking that just working to what we signed is somehow bad and dragging ones feet! The level of Stockholm syndrome around us knows no bounds.

Sop_Monkey

23rd Dec 2013, 10:07

Of course it's falling apart.

Take the title, AOA, Air Officers Association. FFS! What a w:mad:d out, archaic title. Do you really think any corporate outfit is going to take any union or associate seriously?? Your in China. A brutal dictatorship, not a squadron tea club.

FlexibleResponse

23rd Dec 2013, 14:01

Dear Oval3Holer,

The AOA is an organisation for aircrew to try and improve their working conditions and lives and at the same time look after each other and their profession.

If you are not interested in that objective, then so be it...

FR

Trafalgar

23rd Dec 2013, 16:36

It comes down to a simple choice. Either you belong to the AOA, contribute to the debate and the overall financial health of a communal organisation that tries it's best to help the common good of the pilots, or you don't. Frankly, if you don't, you are nothing more than a freeloader who is too cheap to do the only thing available to us. I frequently don't agree with the AOA's position or methods. However, they are the only game in town. Either put up or shut up. I have zero respect for non-members. Don't cry to me about your problems if you are not a member. :mad:

BusyB

23rd Dec 2013, 17:56

Hey Benny,

At your age your memory is letting you down. Suggest you get back in the History Books.

An extremely weak and inaccurate comparison. 1/10 Must do better:D

Threethirty

23rd Dec 2013, 18:26

Let's face it the aoa is not interested in improving our lot, when have they ever achieved anything for us of substance? All this talk of the aoa as a saviour is bollox, face the facts.

BusyB

23rd Dec 2013, 21:08

The AOA is not just interested in improving our lot, but also resisting CX efforts to worsen it. I can assure you, it could be a lot worse.

Furthermore those who have had welfare assistance and advice and those requesting representation during D & G procedures realise that there is more to the AOA than getting Headline pay rises (although that would be nice).

Merry Christmas to all.:ok:

Booger

24th Dec 2013, 03:36

Busy B, well said. :D

Merry Xmas.

main_dog

24th Dec 2013, 13:04

Many of these posts appear to be self-conscious justifications from non-members for not joining up and contributing to the common effort. The AOA are far from perfect as they are essentially a bunch of pilots ie guys like you and me, volunteering their time.

Some are based some are B scale some are F scale some have housing, they are all different and as a result have different opinions. However they have the ungrateful task or representing us against a fiercely cost-conscious management for whom we are merely cost units.

Being a member at the very least buys you a "right to whinge": if you're not a member then in reality you sit on the company's side of the table during any negotiation, and in truth have no right to complain.

Yes the AOA are far from perfect (as recent events have shown) but they are a heck of a lot better than nothing, and without the AOA to occasionally put up a fight, management would be running roughshod over our contracts even more than they already are (witness SHP claims, freighter PXing etc etc).

Merry Christmas.

Didacts and Narpets

25th Dec 2013, 06:57

Word in the biosphere is the AOA has hired a Gen Sec that maybe worse than the last? What you guys/gals need is a former mob boss turned informant who upon release from prison became an attorney and knows how to "negotiate" (Read "Convince") people how things are to be done!

Or in the very least a New York lawyer who has experience in law and negotiations. Another ALPA lackey I don't believe is going to work for you fine folks over at green.

Is your president really trying to sell you folks in the AOA this rubbish? Hate to say this, I really do, but you guys/gals have a pretty ****ty association run by what appears to be ****ty leadership.

For the love of God and before its too late, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!:ugh:

Don_Apron

25th Dec 2013, 11:49

Is it that bad?

Maybe the AOA should change it's name to The Kowloon Lodge.

quadspeed

25th Dec 2013, 18:40

I'm baffled. It is actually true.

Pilots are million dollar morons.

ASH1111

25th Dec 2013, 19:45

This Gen Sec we have just hired presided, and signed off on the worst contract ever imposed on any US Carrier to date. (US Airways) What the heck are we thinking? Don't we hire based on past proven results? Yikes. :bored:

geh065

25th Dec 2013, 23:37

The AOA is not just interested in improving our lot, but also resisting CX efforts to worsen it. I can assure you, it could be a lot worse.

Well said. I have given up hope of ever getting a significantly improved deal. Afterall, why would management ever agree to that? If things can be prevented from getting much worse, then thats a win already with this lot.

SloppyJoe

26th Dec 2013, 01:02

I am utterly amazed, at first I thought it can't be true but have we really just hired the guy responsible for the worst deal ever achieved in the US, a country with far stronger labour laws than here.

ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUC:mad:ING INSANE.
ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUChttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifING INSANE.
ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUChttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifING INSANE.
ARE YOU GUYS TOTALLY FUChttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifING INSANE.

Yonosoy Marinero

26th Dec 2013, 02:51

First we get shafted by the Company with full consent from the GC, now we get a useless GenSec with a track record that would make the grim reaper jealous...

Am I seeing a pattern here?

And what's the membership doing? Fighting for those LHR spots like rotten scraps of food given to famished badgers by an Ethiopian zookeeper.
Where's the outrage?

It's all going to hell in a shopping cart and no one gives a crap.
Merry Xmas. (Now that I know what it means...)

ASH1111

26th Dec 2013, 05:46

This new Gen Sec had better come out swinging. What he did at US Airways was unforgivable. Hey CB, if you think you are going to bring that drama and pansi-footing here, hit the road jack. These upcoming negotiations are far too important for the likes of you to wrench it up.

Rant off.

Threethirty

26th Dec 2013, 06:41

The AOA is an old boys club who are 100% in line with the company. Did we get a say on who became the Gen Sec? No we never and we ponder why things are going to hell in a hand basket!

ETOPS240

26th Dec 2013, 08:01

Pardon my ignorance, but as we all know, communication and shared knowledge of the inner workings of the AOA is not exactly forthcoming information.

What exactly does the GenSec do, and how responsible is he in leading the upcoming fun and games?

As far as I could tell, DD (aside from being the ultimate signature) seemed to be leading us only in theory. In practice, the Chairman, the NC and the GC seem to be the ones leading and working for us. I understand that he may be 'ultimately responsible' for what changes do occur, but as far as I can see, others thrash it out with the company, do the negotiations and create the results which are then to be ratified. How far off the mark am I? I'm genuinely interested, so again, pardon my ignorance.

I'm astonished that this new guy is allowed anywhere near any union leadership, given his comically atrocious track record in similar roles. However, I'm just after clarity on his role over the chairman and more 'active' positions in the union hierarchy.

AQIS Boigu

26th Dec 2013, 12:35

Etops240,

What exactly does the GenSec do?

AOA website after logon, top left corner, "your association", "AOA staff", "industrial"...you can find the job description there...

Judging by some of the flight deck talk and some forum posts I gather this part of the website does not get visited very often...

ETOPS240

26th Dec 2013, 13:04

Thanks for that.

It doesn't give a whole lot away, however.

Now, playing Devil's Advocate;

For what it's worth, he doesn't look like he's the right man for the job. The AOA forums outline prior first hand experiences with him, which are, frankly, diabolical.

But; (and I am no way being an apologist of his appointment, I'm very concerned) undoubtedly he has experience. Naturally, any ALPA experienced union folk of the last 20 years have horrific records. Perhaps we should be looking elsewhere, rather than the ALPA boys club. This much is abundantly clear from how the US aviation industry has deteriorated. Nowadays though, they seem to have turned a corner. Major airlines are making decent profits, and lost ground is being covered by the pilot groups (at the major level).

So, my question would be - given that Cathay has a bright future, is stable, churns out good results, etc. do we think that our new leader will capitalise on that in the same way as current US pilot unions are doing?

In other words, do we think that he made such concessions back then because US Airways was, at the time, in financial ruin, and enormous changes had to be made accross the board for their continued survival?

Obviously Cathay is financially very healthy, and it's prospects are very bright considering the emerging global economic climate, and the role of Asia going forward.

I'm obviously very concerned, and again, I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just wondering whether it is possible to compare his past leadership results with his situation here. I'm not totally clued up on the past, but representing a labour group aboard a sinking ship doesn't seem comparable to resembling a labour group within a successful company. Again, from a short précis on the responsibilities of the GenSec, I still remain of the opinion that the real progress gets made by our Chairman, the NC and GC. Among which we have some very experienced and capable hands.

I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone that he's the right man for the job. I certainly don't know that he is, I'm just after a bit of discussion and opinion. Particularly from those who've been victim to his leadership, and those who've experience with union leadership - insights would be appreciated.

cpdude

26th Dec 2013, 17:54

The GS is also like a Spiritual Leader without the religious connotations. He guides and inspires the senior GC members to formulate policy or direction and having the wrong person can have some very dire consequences.

DD was not a positive influence! Only time will tell if the new guy is the same or worse!

GTC58

2nd Jan 2014, 18:43

The old guard on the GC has to go or nothing will change. The will give and give and give. The head of the NC is an equally bad choice as is the new Gen Sec.
If the GC continue this path only a "no confidence motion" might safe us. GdlC, PV, PW and RF should find another hobby then being on the GC and NC.

AQIS Boigu

2nd Jan 2014, 21:06

PW was only interested in RA65 since it affected him personally - how can you "forget" to put in a 25 year housing deal in writing...

I do have great faith in the next generation of the NC such as BB and JL...

airplaneridesrfun

3rd Jan 2014, 11:06

PW clearly is mgt. no 25 year housing... In fact we are still talking about it 6years later. Cos 08. Cos 08. cos 08. defo onto passenger fleet on bases not in accordance with faca and contract, as well as company policy. out of seniority everything. Lower Cos 08 payscale starting last week for USAB officers (I know, if I signed it (clicked it) i should have known better). Menial pay raises that have not halved inflation each year (ie paycut). Where was contract compliance or MSS? Did we roll over? No we just stayed bent down.

Hopefully we grow some balls! Lets hire a real HK lawyer for our GS. Right now the company is really laughing at us.

Sqwak7700

3rd Jan 2014, 15:20

Well said Curtain, our dues would be much better spent going straight into fighting in the courts. I think you are on to something. I don't know if it will help us get ahead, but I know for certain that it would grind the process to a halt and stop us from loosing ground so quickly.

At this point, as pathetic as it sounds, I am more concerned about hanging on to what we got. Because the AOA leadership we've had up to this point is the one that has seen CoS08 brought in, the death of Expat housing, complete mockery of our scope clause, and they can't even sack-up enough to put us into contract compliance. Something that is pretty much standard operation for most unionised employees worldwide.

:ugh:

Didacts and Narpets

4th Jan 2014, 10:05

Please take this in the kindest regard but you guys whine and whinge way too much! Action, not words, is what it will take. Don't you have motions to address issues when you don't agree with your so called leadership. Yes, your leadership is truly lacking but you do have the power for change. Start by going into the secret office in TST. Then bombard them with calls and emails. Writing and complaining on here will accomplish nothing.

I think you guys over at Green/HKAOA need a revolution both internally and externally. The question is do you have someone to lead the revolution? A true leader who isn't afraid and knows how to get dirty? Perhaps not? Perhaps he/she is staring you right in the face! That is what you need!

Best of luck, you're going to need it I think.

nitpicker330

4th Jan 2014, 11:54

You guys are so full of it.........unbelievable really.

The courts? Really??????? HK courts!! Ahh that's funny fellas!! :ok:

Action??? What ya gunna do? Go on strike?? Sure that'll work just like it did for the 49ers...

Big business control this town, always have and always will.:{

The sooner you realize this fact and just get on with it the better off you'll be.

I've seen bitching and moaning on a grand scale over 20 years in the Harbor and look where it's got us so far......mmmmmm

The way the World is at the moment if you chaps think the grass is greener on the other side then I respectfully suggest you go to it quickly because from where I sit this is just about the best gig in town at the moment ( unless you are young enough to join a good US or European Legacy Carrier )

So give us all a break and just give it a rest will ya.:D

I'm sick and tired of all the negative BS I've read in 20 years here, so much bravado and testosterone flying around I think I'll start a Gym.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Rant over.

Back to normal programming. :E

cpdude

4th Jan 2014, 16:23

Yup, talk about having your head in the sand. 20 years of failure because of a lack of unity!

Times are very slowly changing so keep the pressure on and force a change within the HKAOA.

nitpicker330

4th Jan 2014, 22:23

Hey I've been a loyal AOA member for 20 years, supported the 49ers, been in unofficial contract compliance for 10 years, always voted, attended focus nights, talked to the GC with my ideas and paid my dues through thick and thin.

All good BUT, at the end if the day what do you think our little club can really achieve that CX don't let us have?? They have the CAD in their pocket as well as the Govt and the courts. So you think that taking them to court will work?? How successful have we been in the past in HK courts?? Mmmm

How many guys/girls will go on strike?? Very few
How many guys/girls will go into official CC?? Most but it would only piss off CX

At the end of the day we can only ever hope to try and maintain out cos with the odd pay rise here and there.'Having the AOA helps stop the cos getting even worse but I doubt it will ever get a lot better simply because there is not enough support from the grass roots members.....sad but proven to be true year after year.

If you think I'm being negative, then yes I guess I am but after 20 years of banging our heads against the wall what else could I be??

I've heard all this tough talk before in fact I've done a fair bit myself in the past events, but in spite of all the chest beating we all did what did it achieve?? I remember 49 people being sacked for one.

Two words for you:----DAMAGE CONTROL.

That's all our AOA can do.

Sullys Revenge

5th Jan 2014, 01:06

If anyone thinks that the AOA is an independent body, then you should have your medical taken away on the grounds of being unfit mentally. If you think that there is any reason to have a union, again get some loss of license. And if you think things will ever change, well do yourself a favor and just realize that ND was no better the MG or PW. You were all chosen for a reason and well the investigations into the smoking holes will be the only way that the stories will ever come out. Of course at the end of the day you reap what you sow and there maybe only a handful of cx drivers out there who don't deserve what is right around the corner!