Ryanair denies exploitation of Pay to fly pilots

[1stspotter]

Quite some attention in the Dutch press on Ryanair lately. First Brandpunt, a reporter programme on Dutch tv, aired a third sequence on Ryanair last Sunday. Lots of repeat of the previous episodes on the three FR diversions to Valencia. Some news on the Norwegian threat.

Now the Dutch association of airline pilots VNV states Ryanair exploits young pilots by requiring EURO 30.000 to 50.000 to get their type rating. While they do their type rating the pilots do not get a salary.

In a response Ryanair says these are false accusations. Pilots get a salary.
Ryanair suggested Tuesday that VNV does these accusations out of jealousy. The pilots union, according to the Irish with'' KLM negotiate salary reductions and reorganizations, while Ryanair pilots can enjoy salary increases, good schedules and job security.''

The average salary for pilots at Ryanair is 130,000 euros per year. '' None of the Ryanair Pilots pays to fly,'' says the company.

Ryanair ontkent beschuldigingen uitbuiting piloten | nu.nl/economie | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl (http://www.nu.nl/economie/3644886/ryanair-ontkent-beschuldigingen-uitbuiting-piloten.html)

[TeaTowel]

They do pay to fly, simple as that. Great to see it hitting the mainstream more often in the last few months, but I'm still disappointed they're portrayed as victims. With high unemployment rates in Europe and a more in tuned population with regards labour practices, these Ryanair guys wont be getting much sympathy from the general public for much longer.

[go around flaps15]

FO 4 years in RYR. Earned 190k. Over 3000 jet hours.

Just left RYR. Got my dream job.

[dubaigong]

130000 average per year is just as usual as Ryanair a big lie....
As Captain ( permanent contract ) I got 54500 British Pounds per year before tax and social insurance paid.
On top of that I can count on an average of 1200 Pounds per month.
So it's around a maximum of 78500 Pounds per year and I have to pay for my medical , my uniform , my simulator training etc....

[A4]

Captain gets £78k Gross? In the UK? Permanent contract? Really? :eek::eek:

[1stspotter]

Pilotsjobnetwork has a detailed overview of salary of Ryanair pilots:
Ryanair pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Ryanair)

CAE website clearly shows Type Rating costs for candidates of FR B737
https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6

[Skyjob]

Not sure which base contract you are or have been on dubaigong, but as far as I was aware no pilot on any permanent contract pays for their simulator training, but yes medical, uniform, parking,...

RYR do take a day OFF from your fixed pattern (5/4/5/4 or 6/3/6/3 subject to base) and reserve the right to use it as a working day claiming it's due to you losing out on a day of productivity when in the simulator.

So to me that looks like every year 3 days of simulator and a single day of SEP, thus 4 days of training, which the company can claim 2 day from your otherwise up to 4 days off entitlement. Many non-RYR guys would love that stability.

£1200/month average seems very little, which UK base is flying an 11 month average of ~50 hours? We rack up ~850 annually, so more like winter months £1200, summer months £2200 average, the month off is approximately £1100 as well.

£87k FY12, £92 FY11 (as operated more hours and worked more days off for a bonus), £87 FY10. This year a pay rise so to date £66k taxable gross in period 8 vs last year's £60k at same point in time. Looks good so far...

Seems to me you're in the wrong base.

[LNIDA]

That would equate to €120.000 in Norwegian plus sick pay, holiday pay, crew food, all hotac & commute, no deductions for sim, medicals paid and so on. we even have window blinds in the flight deck, EFB,ACARS and free coffee & water!!

Little wonder every course is rammed with ex Ryanair guys, who are i might add superb :ok:

[BALLSOUT]

an average of 1200 Pounds per month.
Don't forget this is net of tax so it's after 40% tax has been deducted. That would make it £2000 a month sector pay. You can't be doing much flying either, looks like just over 50 hours. Part time?
I would agree, I've never been able to earn £130,000 either, but about £100,000 is doable!

[bluepilot]

WOW I had no idea the pay and conditions for perm pilots at Ryanair was so poor! There is going to a shortage of experienced pilots soon and so hopefully many can move on to better pay and conditions

[Skyjob]

Little wonder every course is rammed with ex Ryanair guys, who are i might add superb

They do produce very able pilots through a very strict training regime.
But yes it is why several people vote with their feet.
When faced with the option available to them to upgrade or join rivals, such as Norwegian, easyJet (recently) and Emirates... Individual choices are to be made to stay and upgrade or move to new (greener?) pastures.

For most RYR pilots, especially LHS (older pilots), the fact that they are on a RYR contract allows them to live near (in most cases) where they want to live (home and family), not fly out from any other than home base (only contractors fly out of base), be home every night (great for those with smaller kids), have a stable roster pattern from now until years from present (plan-able life around work), ...

For them this RYR contract works out fine.

[Aluminium shuffler]

The cadets get no pay until the safety pilot is released after 12 or so sectors of line training, and as zero-hour contractors, they are only paid flight pay with no salary anyway. So, they would indeed be unpaid for their ground school and sim training, and continue to be unpaid for all recurrent training and ground/sim checking, and also have to pay RYR several hundred Euros for those days until they can get a permanent position (usually gained with commands).

[Zipster]

Starting to fly for Ryanair from scratch paying the typerating only to find yourself in a situation where you desperately need to work on a poor zero hour contract with no real jobsecurity, no pay initially but lots of expenses to repay the huge debt collected and more or less having to accept anything coming your way is not the best of ideas for many reasons looking at it from the individuals perspective.

For employers it is great but as soon as the rosetinted views of being a pilot nowadays is no more for the cadets thinking about it in some European Loco´s then fewer and fewer will do it [pay almost 120.000€ for training]

Who needs who in the end of the day?

[captplaystation]

"Exploitation" ? well, nobody is forced to apply , nor accept the conditions offered.
Unlike some SSTR schemes, this one has ongoing employment at the end (rather than the 6mths/500hrs offered by some) even if the contract is not stunning.

Anyone has the option of doing another profession, or doing the licence & waiting (for however long it takes ) to be plucked from the masses & handed a TR .

I do not defend the P2F / SSTR system, but it is a choice made by the individuals concerned, and has come about because of those preceding them.

In this case any exploitation is voluntary on their part.

[Aluminium shuffler]

It is debatable which is more painful, the old self-improver method with periods of unemployment and very low pay as ferry pilot, instructor, air tax/bush pilot, gradually working up to regionals and through turbo prop command before landing a job as a jet FO, but paid by each employer (usually poorly until jet) and no type ratings to pay, or the new route of straight from school into a well decent pay jet position with the burden of paying for ratings and no salary until on line... Either way was financially crippling at the time, but I certainly couldn't afford a London flat or a new BMW/Audi like the new cadets while I worked my way up. I don't like the zero-hour contracts at all, but I think the modern cadets have the easier deal!

[Zipster]

No it has come about and becomes the norm because some people found a way to make some money on people already more or less committed to a thing.

Calling it voluntary and caused by predecessors conviniently and subtly avoid who actually benefit from it.

[captplaystation]

Zipster, you are indeed correct, but, before jumping on the Ryanair-bashing train. . . how much do Vueling charge ? & how much does a Vueling FO earn in year 1 versus a Ryanair FO ? & more importantly, is there a "year 2 " with Vueling (I am led to believe quite possibly not := )

This is quite categorically NOT to commend the "Ryanair way"", but there are worse choices out there for those who choose the "shiny jet" in preference to patience.

[Zipster]

The same goes for Vueling i actually went completely general there earlier not to be seen as a basher.

Prefer ability and experience driven selection any time of the day paid for by the employer. That´s not the same as saying there is no ability and experience selection today also. But there is a difference there. Gives the employer some incentives also to keep people working for them instead of today where in fact looking at it from a monetary perspective it is the opposite.

[Say Mach Number]

I flew with a copilot recently who had was in his 2nd year in FR (UK) and had absolutely milked the backside out of the taxation system and was claiming back all his type rating costs, accommodation, mileage etc through his "Company". Wether he was full of bs but he said had been pocketing about £9K a month including his sector pay.

He now wants a permanent contract because he has run out of the big ticket items to claim against tax.

Only complaint he would like to be doing a few more hours but he wasnt claiming poverty. Maybe he just had a good accountant!!!!

Ps as a premanent Capt in FR you are given a £5K per annum Pilots Allowance to cover medical, loss of licence, sim hotac, etc

[sellect]

9k a month? That is about 10500 Euro a month.. If he was 2 years in RYR he would probably be on the 78.5 Euro/h scale. If he paid absolutely zero tax and social security(which I find hard to believe) he would be flying 133 hours per month.

So I think it is safe to say he was taking the p.... on you

[Say Mach Number]

I have to admit I am no accountant and he sounded plausible when he was rattling off all the tax he was claiming back. Perhaps it was 9K EURO instead of sterling.......

[sellect]

Would still be 114 hours. Highly implausible. It is far more plausible that he was pocketing around 4500 on average, at best.

[jeehaa]

2nd year, sector pay? That would mean a RYR contract. Not a chance! Especially with that kind of money.

[cockney steve]

A lot of people run away with the odd idea that you claim back your costs,from the tax-manTHIS IS A FALLACY, IT'S WRONG
what you do claim. is the right to have that amount of your income added to your tax-free allowance. you just earn the allowable expenses tax-free, the taxman gives NOWT.
AFAIK, you still pay N.I on your actual earnings, after allowable expenses.
there is some room for manoeuver with a limited company,in that dividends are taxed differently to earned income, but Mr. Revenue is in dire need of every penny he can screw out of the taxpayer...not sure if he hasn't plugged that loophole already.
You will not get more than you earn....under PAYE , you are effectively assessed as if you will continue to earn the same for the rest of the tax-year, as you've earned to date...thus your average pay for the year is recalculated every pay-period....say you earn 10K a month for the first 3 months ...you're taxed as if you're earning 120K...so a goodly chunk will be taxed at higher rate.....so you're made redundant and 3 months later, restart worka few days before payday....your averageis only 60K per annum , but you paid higher rate tax on a much higher proportion of salary , than you would have done, had you earned at the same rate over the whole 6 months...so you get a rebate to reflect the overpayment.

Self-employed, you settle your bill once a year (though i believe you now make Quarterly "stage-payments" Generally you pay less tax.....you also get no sick pay, no holiday pay, no job security and usually no perks from your "employer" no doubt someone will correct my errors, but it will hopefully correct this impression that the self-employed get largesse showered upon them by the Revenue.

[hollywood285]

Believe me there are ways and means of doing things like that, As a company director, you learn these things very quickly, Specially if your a limited company, If your on a zero houred contract I take it your classed as self employed? so things like rent of your "business" premise which just happens to be were you sleep is all tax deductable, Mileage for his business is all charged at 45p a mile, electric, gas etc is all on "the company" so, you might have a bit corperation tax to pay, the last thing our pilot wants to do in his first 2 years is make any sort of profit! and when he's found his job with a full contract, wind his company up!

:ok:

[racedo]

Believe me there are ways and means of doing things like that, As a company director, you learn these things very quickly, Specially if your a limited company, If your on a zero houred contract I take it your classed as self employed? so things like rent of your "business" premise which just happens to be were you sleep is all tax deductable, Mileage for his business is all charged at 45p a mile, electric, gas etc is all on "the company" so, you might have a bit corperation tax to pay, the last thing our pilot wants to do in his first 2 years is make any sort of profit! and when he's found his job with a full contract, wind his company up!


All true.

Know someone who works as a senior exec in manufacturing business, does Interim work and he told me that he earned in excess of £200 k last year and paid £5k tax........all via Ltd company.

Now people will complain about what he pays and probably rightly so. But when he a full time exec in business 3-4 years ago he said was paying £100k in tax.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Christ almighty, sounds like anyone who wants to work for FR should do a degree in tax accounting law before they study anything pilot related :rolleyes:

[172_driver]

Believe me there are ways and means of doing things like that, As a company director, you learn these things very quickly, Specially if your a limited company, If your on a zero houred contract I take it your classed as self employed? so things like rent of your "business" premise which just happens to be were you sleep is all tax deductable, Mileage for his business is all charged at 45p a mile, electric, gas etc is all on "the company" so, you might have a bit corperation tax to pay, the last thing our pilot wants to do in his first 2 years is make any sort of profit! and when he's found his job with a full contract, wind his company up!


Not necessarily true.

Rules seem different under different jurisdictions and even under the same jurisdiction (Irish Revenue) the allowable expenses depend on your accountant. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it is..

I have acquaintances doing exactly what you are saying, but the majority do not. Those propositions have been rejected by their accountants.

There are ways to boost your income as a contractor, but many of them are flat out illegal and shouldn't be mentioned here. Only should the revenue audit them would they be in trouble, unless they've been clever and used cash !!

Luke SkyToddler put it best.. a degree in tax law would certainly make life easier. All these tax issues are overwhelming for average Joe..

[zerotohero]

Very true, some accountants let you claim a home office and some won't, some let you claim your car park pass and some won't

It's a joke really as it should be the same across the board, and the accountant is only your tax advisor so if he advised you of an expense and you disagree you should be able to submit it still and if required at a later date it's up to you to argue it out with the revenue people as the accountant advised against it

Unfortunately they are all a bunch of crooks

My biggest gripe is not been able to claim for a car when I live an hour away by car and my contract requires a one hour standby on the roster, I need a car to fulfil it there fore it's a required business cost to me

Long and short of it is though I spend far to much time worrying about this stuff and talking about it with colleagues when the time could be better spent say reading the ops manual or studying jeppy plates!

[hollywood285]

Its not a fiddle or a tax dodge, its use using the system claiming the benefit in kind, not illegal, I use an accountant and so books are fully audited, if you paid everything you would earn nothing, look at good old vodafone, boots, etc etc,they pay very little tax, do they get investergated............. the answer to that is no!

[FBOZH]

Capt PLaystation:
Comments about why pilots should use the right to protest their T+Cs have no place here. If you are a manager please find the manager forum!

[captplaystation]

Come again mate ? what was it I said that you wish to disagree with ? or you have responded to something I said on another thread you don't like ? ? :confused: certainly can't see/understand your gripe about what I have posted here.

Read the contract before you sign it, if you feel you will be exploited, make a different choice. . . simple, no ?

[Zipster]

The tax situation is far from straightforward really. Deductions, accountants, what´s ok and what´s not ok? Add to the mix different countries with slight differences in legislation depending on the country.

A bit like making Mojito´s at a party, once you get the ingredients in the mixer and start the process and as people hear the noise they gather around you saying things like ohh that looks nice and i would love one. But it is a very difficult drink to make as it can very easily be to sweet, to sour, to salty, not enough booze, too much booze. All depends on the crowd in the end.

[captplaystation]

"too much booze". . . . . . ? sorry, you have lost me there :rolleyes: actually, I know what you mean, Riga "Long Island Ice Tea" in the "airBaltic bar", I'm enjoying this, take your time to enjoy it they said, or you won't remember the 3rd one . . . . . . they were right :}

[Zipster]

Never really understood these ultra liberal views where it is assumed people have unlimited choice in some kind of utopia where you can pick and choose freely. Jobs for everyone and if you don´t like something just change. Reality looks different.

Many issues are due things which would not be acceptable anywhere else in society so why should it be in aviation?

[captplaystation]

Not acceptable in aviation, nor in the rest of society, but. . . as far as I have seen in life, it is no different (indeed even worse ) in other professions. It is good to bring attention to the :mad: that goes on in aviation, but very inward looking to think we are the only ones to suffer this in the 21st Century. . it is all around us. As you are Spanish ? ask your companeros how is the life outside of aviation. . . I suspect (sadly) no great difference, except, in the piloting profession "how much you know" can be (partially nowadays) replaced by "how much you pay". . . in life in general "what you know" is still replaceable by "who you know" (Ooops sorry, Yeah that seems to work in aviation too last time I checked. )

[Zipster]

i don´t know captplaystation if there are other professions where new grads have to spend a mid range five digit number just to smell the working environment?

Not Spanish although wish i were sometimes :)

[cockney steve]

The english taxation system allows a proportion of car expenses, tax free (tax -deductible, if you prefer) that proportion has to be exclusively the proportion used for business....so Mr. self-employed is supposed to take start and stop odometer-readings every time he jumps in the vehicle (note I didn't say "car" ;) ) and annotate the purpose of the journey.
Overall, the taxman is reasonable....I had a bit of a row on one occasion when he disallowed tea, sugar and milk costs (very modest!)
I suggested that the Ford Motor Co's Chairman's office cocktail cabinet full of Whiskey, Brandy and the like, would not be disallowed.

I also asked if toilet rolls were going to be disallowed, and could I claim a portion of my haircut costs as my working-week was 50% of the total "growing time"

Didn't get the brew allowance , but the bogrolls were allowed :\

[RAT 5]

All this energy on minutiae. Perhaps an equal amount of energy might be better spent on attesting if you are indeed legally self-employed or even legally a one man Ltd. company with only 1 allowed customer.
Would you not rather be an employee with all the associated employee protections, instead of being out in the cold to fend for yourself.

[captplaystation]

He probably would,if it was an option, but I don't think it is up for grabs. . . .yet. Lets see what happens when all the European Govts realise how much more € they could have if the company & the individual were contributing (rather than both being one & the same person)

I have the feeling this may all change in the next few years, but, will we be better off ? somehow I have my doubts on this one.

[Zipster]

Looking at the criteria just for fun today it is easy to realise it is not built on solid ground the contracting thing.

[Al Murdoch]

RAT 5 - Isn't that what we pay accountants for?

[cockney steve]

RAT 5 - Isn't that what we pay accountants for?

Yes, but you have to remember that they're part of the Taxation Industry...all money-shufflers,like the taxman......when I first went self -employed, I asked another Local S-E person, who was a good accountant and on his reccomendation, signed -up with A .Z Come an interview with Mr. Revenue< I informed him that A.Z. was my Accountant....."Very good man " says Revenue"straight as a die, I play Cricket with him"

Yes! I'd dropped a brick! One pays an accountant to exploit legal loopholes and trading -structures, to benefit ones self,- not to work for Mr. Revenue.
A.Z was dropped after the first year....I explained the extra tax I would pay, was far less than his fees...or, to put it bluntly, he wasn't earning his keep.
These "Contractor" contracts are on very shaky ground I believe they won't stand up to scrutiny, and I think the key area is legal hours.

If a contractor does not fly his legal, allowable duty-hours in a year, he has a "buffer" of unused working time to sell...BUT HIS CONTRACT PROHIBITS THAT.

The whole ethos of being self-employed, is thea you are free to exploit your own talents as you see fit. The contract caps any entreprenurial intent. ( unless you pursue an entirely different trade on your non-contracted days) highly unlikely it would pass scrutiny.

[RAT 5]

Isn't that what we pay accountants for?

I suspect Enron, Anderson Consulting, RBS, and hoards of others said the same thing. Down the pan they went anyway, even though the accounts had been signed off as kosher.

[Zipster]

If a contractor does not fly his legal, allowable duty-hours in a year, he has a "buffer" of unused working time to sell...BUT HIS CONTRACT PROHIBITS THAT.

Great point, it is such a charade this whole thing once you look a little bit closer. Simply log onto the HMRC website and answer the questions there to see where you are in relation to what should be. :ok: