Licence - Carry or Not?

[fireflybob]

The UK ANO says that one is not required to carry your flight crew licence when on a private flight so long as you are not on a flight which is international air navigation. (Schedule 9)

However "FCL.045 Obligation to carry and present documents" in EC 1178 states inter alia "(a) A valid licence and a valid medical certificate shall always be carried by the pilot when exercising the privileges of the licence."

So is one legally obliged to carry the licence or not?

[S-Works]

Yes. EASA regulation.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Completely bonkers. Rules like this are written to ensure that if you crash and burn all the paperwork goes up in smoke as well, thus complicating the lives of the investigators.

[S-Works]

All of the paperwork you are required to carry is now available on computer records so no issue if it goes up in smoke.

Personally I never carry my logbook but all my other documents are available form the CAA.

[A and C]

It's so all the documents are available if you are ramp checked.... Better have them with you if you go to Le Mans or the Isle or Man TT those are favourite events for the trappers to attend.

[fireflybob]

Better have them with you if you go to Le Mans

Of course A & C and that would be an "international flight"? (Not sure whether IOM would be! LOL)

[Talkdownman]

We'll be needing passports for going through UK domestic airports next… :rolleyes:

[Helicopterdriverguy]

I carry my license, medical and aircraft documents at all times so i'm good for a ramp check and legal of course.

[fireflybob]

I carry my license, medical and aircraft documents at all times so i'm good for a ramp check and legal of course.

and, I hope, photographic ID as required by the Euroland people.

My specific query was on a private flight as the current UK ANO and the EU (EASA) stuff says different.

I carry my licence at all times - I agree it's really no big deal but if EASA are saying this always applies on private flights which are not international then I think many out there will not be aware.

[tomtytom]

Isnt there somthing on the licence that says you need a photographic form of id anyway? I keep license and passport in the arm pocket of my jacket for all flights. Which is fine untill I loose it/leave it or wash it.

[Helicopterdriverguy]

Oh, well, i additionally carry my wallet with my AOPA card and my provisional driving license so i believe thats OK.

[ShyTorque]

I always carry mine, but having held a professional licence for well over twenty years I've never been asked to produce it.

(but probably will be tomorrow... :O ).

[flybymike]

All of the paperwork you are required to carry is now available on computer records
Which is why the CAA require certified copies of existing licences, medicals, rating details etc before they will issue new EASA licences.
Go figure.

[mad_jock]

Shy in the fixed wing pro world we have a thing called SAFA checks so it comes out occasionally.

Internally in the UK in GA I agree nobody has asked to see mine apart from one PPL police at an airfield who got told to poke off much to the amusement of the people ear wagging in.

[S-Works]

I get ramp checked all the time out work. It's usually the French or Spanish doing the checks. Biarritz I gave been checked 4 times thus year alone. Santander twice.

[Fostex]

Agree, numerous ramp checks in France, why not carry it!

Sounds like the various nutcases who are affronted by the fact that cannot cut up their licence. Who cares, just pop it in a pocket in your flight bag and forget about it until someone asks for it. :ok:

[Katamarino]

The only place I've ever been ramp checked was in Nigeria. The aircraft was F-Reg, but my JAA licence was in a bag in the back. They were perfectly happy with my FAA licence, and couldn't read the French on any of the aircraft documents :}

[wb9999]

My specific query was on a private flight as the current UK ANO and the EU (EASA) stuff says different.

Where there is contradiction between the ANO (or any other UK law) and EASA regulations, the EASA regs override UK law.

[patowalker]

Are you saying that a UK official would ignore the ANO and apply EU law in the UK? What is the point Schedule 9 then?

[S-Works]

Part FCL is European law and overrides the ANO. I am pretty sure that the ANO now excludes EASA licences.

[wb9999]

Are you saying that a UK official would ignore the ANO and apply EU law in the UK? What is the point Schedule 9 then?

Correct. EU regulations are law across the EU, and override national laws. The ANO is still applicable for CAA licences, but EASA licences (and JAR which are now EASA licences) are covered by Part-FCL.

[patowalker]

Thanks for that. I must remember to fly in the UK on my NPPL SSEA, and not my LAPL.

It could get complicated if they ask for my medical though, because I have not renewed my med dec and fly on the NPPL with a LAPL medical. :confused:

[flydive1]

Is the licence really that heavy?

[fireflybob]

Is the licence really that heavy?

flydive1, no but the point is why should I have to carry my licence flying my puddle jumper in my native country?

I don't have to carry my driving licence when I am in my private car.

This is a stupid law and could only be dreamed up by an EU Committee.

Next will be someone saying to me "Vos Papiers?"

And please I only raised the point with reference to private flights in UK - as one who flew commercially for too many years I am only too aware of those ramp checks and SAFA inspections which are perfectly reasonable.

[wb9999]

I don't have to carry my driving licence when I am in my private car

I think I am right in saying that the UK is in the minority in Europe in that respect. Some countries require photo ID to be carried even if walking down the street. I guess this is why an EU licence requires it to be carried if you are exercising the privileges of it.

[ShyTorque]

Shy in the fixed wing pro world we have a thing called SAFA checks so it comes out occasionally.

We are of course also liable to ramp checks. I've actually stood alongside others being asked to produce their licences... it's probably just that I look so squeaky clean that they know they needn't bother with me. :E

Or maybe they just think "No way is he a professional pilot....he must be somewhere else!" One advantage of being in disguise; probably the jeans and T shirt.

[fireflybob]

I think I am right in saying that the UK is in the minority in Europe in that respect. Some countries require photo ID to be carried even if walking down the street. I guess this is why an EU licence requires it to be carried if you are exercising the privileges of it.

There is a political issue to this. Am not an expert in law but in the UK everything is legal unless there is a law that bans or restricts same. This is completely the opposite of EuroLand where every thing is illegal unless the State permits it or issues conditions.

It's interesting how the issue of carrying an EASA licence when even flying privately within one's home country has slipped in through the backdoor of the EU. If they tried to do that with driving licences in the UK I would expect a big outcry against erosion of liberties - remember all the hoohaa when ID cards were proposed in the UK?

I have no objection to laws if they are reasonable and there is some logic as to why I should obey them.

Don't worry though - I will be voting UKIP - the sooner we are out the better (pith helmet donned).

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Some countries require photo ID to be carried even if walking down the street.
One mark of a police state (eg France, where I once got arrested for not taking my passport with me on a visit to the beach). Another mark of a police state is the police routinely carrying guns (eg France).

Don't worry though - I will be voting UKIP
Have you actually met and talked to any UKIP politicians?

[fireflybob]

I have met and talked to politicians of all parties including UKIP and I still know who I will be voting for!

[Silvaire1]

Another mark of a police state is the police routinely carrying guns (eg France).

I would respectfully disagree. While France may (or may not!) be a police state, the police carrying guns is not the deciding factor. In fact, I'd go as far as to say an armed police force is a component of a free country because the police need to defend themselves against an armed population, a small fraction of which are law breakers. That population is the ultimate disincentive for tyrants.

I think one of the first things done postwar by the spiritual forerunners of the current EU politburo was disarming the population, continent wide. This was done with the concurrence of the then occupying powers (the US and Soviet Union) because it also suited their purposes within Europe. Once that and other components were in place, let's say by 1990, and with those occupiers largely gone, I think the move towards rule by an unelected class of EU bureaucrats accelerated. Now 23 years on you can see the emerging results, with aviation as always a leading indicator: in any country, freedom in aviation seems to be a direct indication of freedom in general. National IDs are certainly another leading indicator.

Regardless, the UK has a relatively recent tradition of combating tyrants rather less naive than the current crop, and winning. To expect the UK population to accept what is happening to their 1000 year old legal tradition, without eventually doing whatever it takes to rectify the situation, seems to me very naive. My point of view only, of course.

[garrya100]

I wouldn't say I live in a police state, and our police are armed. I have to carry a licence to drive and fly.....don't have a problem with that.

However I do live in a nanny state, a law for every possible occurrence. It seems that you're no longer allowed to apply common sense.

[Gomrath]

I live in Los Angeles - nuff said I think...

back on topic - in the US it is well worth having a Weight and Balance in hand as well if you get ramp checked by a FAA Inspector. They can get antsy if you can't prove having completed one pre-flight.