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John Frohnsdorff
10th May 2002, 13:38
This is the first time I have posted here.

I & my team will try & answer any Q's you may have.
I will be using my own name until poll closure on the 17th June There is much uncertainty out there & you all deserve answers. We want to give all members a chance to reflect their views.
Please vote this is your unions future.

John Frohnsdorff

gyrohead
10th May 2002, 14:17
Who are you and what is this all about?

BOAC
10th May 2002, 14:21
For those in any doubt, this thread relates to the forthcoming election for General Secretary of BALPA. Those who are eligible to vote will know that John has put himself up for election against the incumbent.

I would ask that Pprune HQ allow this thread, and apologies to all non-UK and non-balpa readers, but this is an important moment in the association's history.

On behalf of Danny and the team, I ask ALL contributors to keep the thread NON-PERSONAL, refrain from the 'usual' slanging match that so many of these threads descend to, and let's have a reasoned look at the pro's and con's of this election.

Rest assured, should it degenerate, Danny and co will be out with the red pen!

fantom
10th May 2002, 14:28
I have a question John:

what took you so long?

good luck.

P.Pilcher
10th May 2002, 14:40
As I am not a member of BALPA I have followed with interest, as have many others the posts on the threads on this board concerning the forthcoming elections of the BALPA general secretary. It would appear that some members consider that Mr. Darke is not earning the substantial salary that he earns from the considerable subscriptions paid by BALPA members. As his opposition feels it necessary to use this public bulletin board to promote his election campaign to a position in this private organisation, is it possible to infer that for whatever reason the organisation is not, itself giving him this opportunity? Furthermore, in view of the lack of finance that Danny and his colleagues often have to mention suffering in running this BB may I suggest that they offer BALPA a private facility so that its members can get on with their private business in private, and charge a fee commensurate with the subscriptions that BALPA levy!

I'm very happy to be in the IPA.

africacore
10th May 2002, 15:08
John
Thanks for standing up for election - it's amazing how you are willing to answer any questions put to you but go to CD's website and there is not a question and answer section - it shows he wants to tell us all how wonderful he is but does not want to have to reply to questions that if he answered truthfully would I have no doubt accelerate his demise.
I find this typical of his leadership style -BALPA as far as the internet is concerned is years behind and has anybody ever seen a forum message from CD.The last time I e mailed him I never even had courtesy of a reply - suddenly we have his own personal website at our disposal and I bet you if you emailed him now you would get the courtesy of a response (before the ballot closes anyway!!) Good Luck

flt_lt_w_mitty
10th May 2002, 15:30
Mr F - good luck to you!

2 questions -

1) I would be concerned if BALPA were left 'rudderless' (I was going to say 'in the dark') following the election - I take it that despite your BALPA experience which you quote, you would not claim to be able to work as GS, so do you have someone in mind to 'fill-in' should MR D be displaced? (ok, I know the answer to 'should' is yes!) Maybe YOU intend to work as GS?

2) How long do you envisage 1) in being?

Ta
Walt

XFO1-11
10th May 2002, 15:45
John,

Thanks for providing the chance to have a say in the running of BALPA.

It has been truely depressing not being able to effect any meaningful change up till now.

Regards,
XFO1-11

Notso Fantastic
10th May 2002, 16:03
John

We're all hearing disturbing stories about the state of BALPA's finances. When you have a developing overdraft, you HAVE to do something about it. Is there any area you envisage BALPA will have to change the way it goes about things? If we have to cut our suit according to our cloth........

Captain Airclues
10th May 2002, 19:06
How do we know that this is the real John Frohnsdorff? Surely anyone could have registered that name.

Airclues

STATLER
10th May 2002, 22:47
john,

I am a new member to BALPA,I am only a lowley flying instructor,but feel that the membership of BALPA will be of use later on in my career rather than now. I have watched this debate not only on prune but through the BALPA news letters and the thing that I have notice is the fact that the people at the top of BALPA seem very keen to keep CD on the throne so to speak and my question is WHY? and why has he been allowed to go on uncontested? somewhat unhealthy in me opinion. Just look at the problems facing the lottery.
You now have my vote, this is due to the fact that recent information regarding CD's other interests somewhat alarms me.

The person who eventually gains his position should be wholly committed to BALPA and no one else, considering that the post commands a somewhat hansom salary.

I do hope that BALPA continues to go from strength to strength in the future, and continues to provide us with protection we all need not just now but in times to come, as profits etc get tighter we the aircrew will be the ones to bear the brunt of our employers decisions and sensible wholly comitted represetation is what we will need.

BOAC
10th May 2002, 23:19
Cpt Airclues - please accept my assurance that this is the genuine article.

Do watch out, however, for similar names with incorrect spaces, underscores and the like - as I am sure we will see them.

I even saw 'Chris Darke' register the name today (Friday)

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 09:28
Gyrohead

I am sorry the thread was not made clear. I have not been on PPruNe before and it is new to me. I will try to get the thread name changed to something clearer.

I am one of the two candidates for the position of BALPA GS.

Regards,
John.

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 09:32
Fantom,

The post only comes up for re-election every five years. This would have been CDís second uncontested term if I had not come forward.

Regards,
John

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 09:50
P.Pilcher

It is true that I do not have the resources available to the incumbent GS. For instance his access to Log to promote his views and additionally the letters sent out by the NEC Chairman.

All I have is my manifesto to get my message across to every one that this is not a BA takeover of BALPA.

My aim is to find a replacement GS that is acceptable to ALL and will bring the association together again. I will then resign.

Your comment about Danny is well taken. We are at present moving away from CS forum use. I shall enquire whether there is a possibility of moving to PPruNE.

I would like to be in a position to make you happier with BALPA than IPA.

Regards,
John

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 10:00
Africacore,

Thanks for your support.

Regards,
John

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 10:17
Flt_It_w_mitty,

I would not be happy myself if BALPA where to be left rudderless; this will not happen. We do have qualified people that will be interested in applying for the GS position; additionally it is the intent to advertise the position to make sure we get the best person for the job. I will fill the position in the interim; please remember I have extensive NEC experience.

I would hope to have someone mutually acceptable to all within a few months.

Regards,
John.

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 10:19
XFO,

Well; you have a say now!

Regards,
John

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 10:30
Notso,

We have to make serious changes to the way our finances are handled. We must get a more accountable system in place.

The original ten year projection of income over expenditure makes depressing reading.

The subscription income would be adequate if we had better pay rises for our members; this in turn would help BALPA.

Regards,
John

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 10:33
Captain Airclues;

BOAC can confirm the source.

Regards,
John

P.Pilcher
11th May 2002, 10:35
John - Fair Comment! In many organisations well established and entrenched management sometimes need stirring up a bit. It is only right and proper to give your other members a choice and I wish you every success.

All the best,
P.P.

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 10:37
STATLER,

I share many of views.

Thank you for your vote. If elected, I will not let you down.

Regards,
John

Dan Winterland
11th May 2002, 10:52
Good luck John. You have already had my vote.

The one thing that has concerned me is that within BALPA there does not seem to be any emphasis on any airline other than the Big Airline, as a quick look at 'The Log' will confirm. (Boring articles on Nigel's trip to Buenios Aires, pensions and prostate problems usually means it goes in the recycling bin before being read).

BALPA represents many now, but not a lot of help is given. My airline's round of redundancies post 9/11 demonstrated this. The negotiations were left to the CC with minimal assisstance from BALPA, the net result was that too many redundancies were made (as time has now showed).

Do you have plans to extend the influence of BALPA to these new companies?

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 11:12
Cpt Mainwaring

The other 7 voted for CD for a variety of reasons.

The 2 BA people were nervous about losing the Deputy GS, should he apply.
He is an exclusive BA negotiator. He is a very capable person & will as his title suggests be more than capable of holding the fort in both positions for a while. ie the BA & administrative role, which incidently he performs to a large extent at present.

The other 5 had a variety of reason 3 are Britannia,
(the chairman, finance chairman & one other CC rep)
The other 2 are the helecopter rep & another large independant rep.

Their views were various but basically I believe you could sum up as saying they felt the status quo was ok!!
We did not, hence the election.

Regards
John

CapedCrewsAider
11th May 2002, 11:33
John,

Where do you stand on the SCOPE agreement. In particular the current debate on PPRune regarding BA flying for GB Airways.

The GB Airways Pilots case is that:

BA instigated the franchise agreements, companies entered into them in good faith paying considerable sums of money in return for use of the BA brand. (The normal franchise model)

GB is a privately owned company that has been in existence for 70 years. It has held a franchise for about 6 years.

Most of the routes (all but 4 or possibly 5) are actually GB Airways routes. Instigated developed and nurtured by GB Airways,routes not handed to GB by BA.

GB Airways would be succesful in or out of a franchise because it conforms to the low cost model in terms of controlling costs, ie GO Easyjet, Ryanair etc.

GB pilots have very only recently reached a position where there pay is average, note - average, for the UK industry excluding BA.(This Tracker agreement excludes BA because it would skew pay upwards.)

GB pilots are largely BALPA members, the pay subscriptions to BALPA, they expect BALPA to fairly represent their position. They do not expect BALPA to favour one group of pilots over another.

Can you honestly reassure us that, especially after reading your manifesto that you do not have the 'Fortress Heathrow' mentality of some in BA & BALPA.

I appreciate you recognise that there are now more non-BA than BA members, in BALPA. Do you also recognise that there is a significant feeling that BA holds a dominant position in the UK, looses significant amounts of money on shorthaul and many BALPA members may feel it is time for them to get out of the way and let the industry flourish, providing more jobs for UK pilots.

Your comments re: 'benchmarking' are insignificant for most CCs as I think you will find the realistic view amongst airline managers and CCs is that BA's terms and conditions are simply unrealistic and not attainable or sustainable in the industry of today. Thus BA is generally not regarded as the benchmark amongst charter or low cost carriers, they compare like with like.

Do you recognise that the 'market always wins', it is a question of supply and demand, this is the present situation post 9/11. Part of BALPAs task is to encourage demand by helping the industry expand. That is the way to ensure better pay and conditions for all of the industry.

NW1
11th May 2002, 11:53
John,

Would it not be possible to assemble these likely and capable candidates for the GS job, get them to draft up manifestoes and have a proper open and democratic election instead of having to go through this slightly unseemly "stalking horse" route? (Although I accept that it may have been the only move to "wake up" those, like me, who had no idea of the scale of the problem)

That way we we could square up CD with the competition and elect the GS by direct comparison instead of dumping CD first and then seeing what happened next.

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 13:06
Dan Winterland

I believe that BALPA has to be of more direct help to the CCís and to be seen as doing so. More hands on in effect.

The perception of Log being a BA newspaper is regrettable; in the editorial staffs defence I donít think it is a deliberate thing.

Regards,
John

CapedCrewsAider,

The SCOPE debate is in the remit of the BACC and is presently under discussion. Frankly there is nothing on the table yet to have an opinion on.

That said; one of the SCOPE group, doing the discussions, has informed me that he doesnít think GB pilots will dislike the proposals when they know fully what they are. He wonít tell me any more than that.

On the benchmarking issue; I would still hold that if BA Salary and T&Cís increase the other companies have to retain their staff by being more attractive themselves. This in turn helps you get a better settlement.

Regards,
John

NW1,

I wish it where that simple. The problem is that it is impossible to get someone of the quality we require to stand against an incumbent GS.

I really wish there were a simpler way to give you all a vote. Remember I am not going to take any salary for doing this, if I win, and it is a lot of work to do for no remuneration.

Regards,
John

NW1
11th May 2002, 13:44
John,

Thanks for the speedy reply. So you're saying that the people we need to do this job won't actually stand *against* CD, but need to be invited in to what would effectively be a vacant post? No wonder we're experiencing difficulties.

I do understand that you're taking a lot on for no financial compensation - all BALPA members owe you thanks for that, and for getting some issues we all needed to be aware of out in the open. Can't belive the status quo had so much momentum.

Groucho
11th May 2002, 16:13
John - I'm with you so far, and I'm trying to keep away from industrial 'issues', as I understand from what you are saying that you will effectively be 'baby-sitting' BALPA while you hunt for a new GS -

Have you ANY ideas of suitable contenders for the post? Can we afford to wait until the election is over?

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 17:07
NW1,

Thanks.

Regards,
John.

Groucho,

There are good potential candidates around but we have to make sure we get the right person; one that brings the association together. I donít want to take to long about it but I donít want to be too hasty either.

I have to wait for the end of the election for the obvious reason; I need to be elected to be able to do anything.

Regards,
John

BHPS
11th May 2002, 18:00
Hi John

I am just a little confused here. My company only recognised BALPA a few years ago. However, Chris Darke has been instrumental in stopping some nasty industrial action in my sector of the industry, and we have been rewarded with pay rises that will bring us close to the larger airlines over the next 3 years.

My company has nothing to do with BA and its associate companies and until very recently I had never heard of John Frohnsdorff.

How do you expect to gain the votes of members like me if you do not get out and meet the other BALPA members? We are after all members of the British Air Line Pilots Association, NOT the British Airways Line Pilots Association! I have to say that between the two manifestos I read, your's came across to me that Chris Darke was not representing the wishes of sections of BA. I noted your other points concerning the costs of BALPA under CD's leadership, but I would have liked more information on your perceived problems within BALPA and not so much about BA problems.

I also note that you are standing to in effect "wake up" BALPA and its management. I am, however, concerned that if you win you will only stand in post until someone else comes in. This, to my mind, is a total waste of BALPA's resources (and my membership fees) as if you win, we will have to go all over this again. If there is a suitable person already willing to stand up to an election with CD, then why isn't he the person that is standing to take over the job fully instead of you?

I may have missed these points in your manifesto, but at the moment you don't have my vote.

keep_pushing
11th May 2002, 18:28
John: in an earlier posting you mentioned that three of the NEC members who voted in favour of rubber-stamping CDís re-election were from Britannia. You imply that this was the reason for voting as they did. Why do you feel that this is the case?

foggy duck
11th May 2002, 19:40
John

My CC (non BA) are very familiar with the "nitty gritty" at BALPA and have backed CD, as have most airlines's company councils.

Why is this so ?

flappless
11th May 2002, 20:04
John,

Just a few questions for you.

Your manifesto clearly shows that you have no support from CC'c other than BA. Can you explain why that might be so ?

If the NEC is the recognised National Forum which is elected by BALPA members, and, the NEC has stated quite clearly that it supports Chris Darke, I would put it to you that by the actions you are taking you are not properly conducting yourself as a member of the NEC and should therefore,
a) resign from the NEC,
b) ensure that your supporters also resign and
c) stand against Chris Darke but not as a member of the NEC.

The public written arguments and slurs which have been part of this message board over the last few weeks will have had a negative impact on the Association and the good work that it carries out - how do you feel about being part of that ? At least Chris has had the good sense to stay off this forum.

Look forward to your reply.

flappless

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 20:19
BHPS,

You are right in that it is hard to get out and meet all BALPA members. I do not have access to LOG or the ability to send out missives like the NEC Chairman. I do not have the funds to go around the CCís canvassing support therefore I do this on PPruNe and on the BALPA Cs forum.

The issue is not just a BA one; I am pleased that you seem to have attained what your regard as a good three year deal but not all companies can say the same. Certainly benchmark comparisons with UK pilot salaries vs. Western European and the U.S. are not so good. Flagging out is an issue with certain companies.

I have tried to explain that getting the quality of individual that we want for the post is not possible against an incumbent GS; hence the stocking horse. I wish it could be otherwise.
I am sorry that I do not have your vote.

Regards,
John

Keep_pushing,

On re-examining that post I feel I could have phrased it better. I do not wish to re-open history or create any further divisions.

It was difficult to arrange to have the election or even a debate on this subject at all; but that is now in the past. The whole point now is to bring the association together and to find the right person to do it; should I win. If I do not win then you at least will have had your say in the matter.

In a democracy that is the right way of dealing with issues.

Regards,
John

John Frohnsdorff
11th May 2002, 20:43
Foggy Duck,

I do not wish to back slide on questions but this is really one best answered by your own CC.

May I ask you a question? Did they ask your opinion or consult before doing so?

Regards,
John

Flappless,

If you look carefully at the CCís nominating CD you will find some omissions. Not all CCís did nominate CD, I am not saying that they support me either; I am just answering your point.

In fact everyone is elected by members; Local Reps, Central Council Reps, NEC Reps and last but not least the GS.

I was elected on a platform of reform and to make BALPA more accountable to the members. Your point seems to be that you do not want the members to have their say in who is in one of THE most important positions in our association.

Regards,
John,

CapedCrewsAider
11th May 2002, 22:24
John,

I think I speak for most BALPA members in my company in sofar as the deep disquiet regarding CD only seems to exist amongst BA members. The membership in other companies, especially ex-Dan Air BCal and CityFlyer pilots might well have a view that CD is in the pocket of the BA CC.

Do you also not think that if the BA CC is discussing the future of another companys' BALPA members it might have the courtesy to include that companies CC in the debate?

So far you do not have my confidence or my vote.

Regards,

CapedCrewsAider.

freddyfokker
11th May 2002, 22:52
John

I am very disappointed to see this debate public.

I have seen Chris Darke in action and know that he is both talented experienced and well respected by senior managment in most airlines.

It is an extremely turbulent time in our industry and continuity and his ability to diffuse some very turbulent issues around are needed.

He is proven and what we do not need at this time is an unknown stepping into the firing line.

If there was a long term alternative in the vote fair enough but to have a void is unacceptable.


I respect your concerns about the running of balpa and support several issues you may have, but would it not be more appropriate to address these from your position as an NEC member. The NEC at the end of the day is the ruling body of which you are part.

For the good of the industry please stop and think about the damage you are doing. The void you may create.

I cannot with the maifestos seen support your actions, however good the intention. Please think about ending this now. Youve made your point.

pipistrelle
11th May 2002, 23:43
John,
I have previously commented in another thread that I think it is time for a major change in the BALPA heirarchy. I cannot believe that someone can give 100% to two jobs and be expected to deliver an acceptable level of representation to either. I respect your candour and for that alone I have voted for you.
If my CC offered support to Mr Darke I would like to know when the support of the Balpa members in our co. were canvassed for their opinions, never in our case!!
My plea is that you will put the wheels in motion to give all the BRITISH pilots in the BRITISH airline pilots association some hope for the future by laying down the foundations of a cohesive policy to stop the continual erosion/decline of our career prospects by the continual misemployment of foreign (often not even E.U. citizens) pilots.
Over the last few months Mr Darke's stance has pushed me to the brink of redundancy, I know we are not the most militant organisation and altruism doesn't pay the mortgage but nothing has come from his office other than self adulation and rhetoric, no policy at all. Maybe it is time for some of the anti BA members to try to put aside their differences and try to push ahead with a pilots union chaired by (even in the short term) a pilot.

John Frohnsdorff
12th May 2002, 11:10
CapedCrewsAider,

The great thing about an election is that you donít have to speak for what you think most of the members in your CC want; they get to speak for themselves!

I cannot answer for the BACC but I would point out that your disquiet with the present situation is with CD as GS not I. Do you not think therefore you should be writing to CD? It is unfair to lay your frustration at my feet; Iím only a candidate!

I am still sorry I donít have your vote.

Regards,
John

Freddyfokker,

Quote from Clement Atlee

>Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop the people talking<

Regards,
John

Pipistrelle,

Thanks for the posting. I share your concern about UK pilot career prospects and would like to assure you that will be one of the foremost issues when and if, depending on the election result, we select a new GS.

Regards,
John

crusin level
12th May 2002, 18:36
Two Points
1: JF- You have my vote.

2: I hope that CD's website was financed by his own funds, I would hate to see my 1% used on his election campaign.

John Frohnsdorff
12th May 2002, 19:40
Crusin level

1/ Thanks

2/ I too hope it is only his money financing this web site.
It is very professional, if only we had such facilities for all our C/Cs

Regards

John

Human Factor
12th May 2002, 22:06
JF,

You have my vote as well. Surely in a democracy we should have a choice of candidates, rather than an incumbent being rubber stamped. In particular, I note that the 'best' alternative candidates would not be prepared to challenge an incumbent.

Well done for sticking your head above the parapet.

Regards

HF

TDK mk2
12th May 2002, 23:25
John Frohnsdorff,

Although I haven't yet decided which way to vote I support your standing as an alternative to the status quo and watch with interest as the campaign proceeds.

In the meantime, as a non BRITISH (and not even EU citizen) member of BALPA please will you confirm your intent to equally represent us 'foreign' pilots living and working legally in this country should you be voted in as GS?

I noted with interest Mr Pipistrelles comments above and as I seem to be unable to email him/her directly perhaps he/she would clarify the comment "the continual misemployment of foreign pilots" for me in case I have misread the inference...

John Frohnsdorff
13th May 2002, 06:41
Human Factor

Thanks for the support

We have a number of ideas as a replacement but the field will be open to all.

Regards

John

TDK mk2

As a foreign national of course you are represented, membership is open to all flying on UK licences, or involved in British commercial flying. I believe pipistrelle is refering to the flagging out problem, one of my colleages on the NEC is well up to speed on this problem. I will put you in touch if it would help.

Regards

John

A and C
13th May 2002, 08:01
John if you do unseat Mr Darke you say that you will stand down as soon as a replacement is found , this stance means that in effect I have no idea what I,m voting for except to get rid of Mr Darke.

I find this a very negative way of doing things and without more information about what happens after the unseating of Mr darke and who his intended replacment is you do not have my vote.

How ever if you can take a more constructive line I would be more likely to reconsider my position.

John Frohnsdorff
13th May 2002, 09:12
A and C,

I understand your point and I truly wish that I could present you with the final candidate but I am afraid this is the only way to give you an election.

It simply is not possible to get quality people to stand against an incumbent GS. Advertising a position is a different matter and he/she will have to be approved in any event. I would not just plonk someone in.

Regards,
John.

growler145
13th May 2002, 09:13
John I'm with A & C ,out of the frying pan into the fire springs to mind.

upperecam
13th May 2002, 10:15
There seems to be a lot of subversion around here. Stick to the issues and avoid knocking the individuals. BALPA is a cosy quango of self interest and needs changing, just like the rest of The UK's dreadful hierarchy.

Any person taking the effort to challenge the system out of very genuine concern deserves, if nothing else, a lot of respect for the time and hard work it must be taking. Gets my vote for that alone.

:D :mad: :p

Nearly Nigel
13th May 2002, 11:08
John,

Thanks for taking this stand, you have already had my vote.

Can you please explain though, why no top-quality candidate will challenge an encumbent GS?

Is it the fear of losing with the attendant damage to future career prospects, or simply because they would be jeopardising their existing job if they were seen to be interested in another, with no guarantee of winning the election and therefore landing the new job?

If the latter is the case, it is not dissimilar from the way that us Pilots all seem to wait for the contract to arrive from a new employer before actually giving our notice in. Something to do with mortgage payments, I believe. Not an unreasonable position to take.

John Frohnsdorff
13th May 2002, 11:36
growler145,

I am not a politician! I am not going to just promise you anything just to get your vote.

I will take the time and care to select the best replacement and will not stick just anyone in. Come on Growler you know it isnít possible to do what you want!

I need your support!

Regards,
John.

Upperecam,

Thanks for the support.

Regards,
John.

Nearly Nigel,

You have pretty much summed the problem up. Obviously if there is a positive position to fill we can attract the best people. The problems you mention would then cease to be problems.

Thanks for your vote.

Regards,
John

fokker
13th May 2002, 15:00
Have just had a look at CD's website: To be fair, it does say that it was created using his own money but what a nauseating piece of self agrandisement.

JF; I've never met you and probably never will but you get my vote, if only for the the sake of transparency.

To the carpers....if CD really is the best man for the job, he'll win anyway, won't he? Simple, innit? :p

Kurtz
13th May 2002, 15:16
Hi John, good luck!!

However........where do you stand on the issue of the RJ100s and BACitiExpress ? We feel we re being let down badly by mainline BALPA here. Any thoughts?

jumbodriver
13th May 2002, 15:25
john,
you have my vote.
I do work for BA but have worked for the smaller independants aswell.
I am very concerned about what is at stake for ALL of us here.
BALPA has not,in my opinion,served the interests of the vast majority of airline pilots or flight engineers well in the last ten years.It cetainly has not served the interests of those of us at BA.
Most of us,throughout the industry, have seen real reductions not only in our terms and conditions,but in our overall quality of life.Not to mention other issues such as flagging out etc.

The majority of BALPA is now made up from companies other than BA.Although BA remains the largest stakeholder.It is vital that our colleagues,from all quarters,understand how the BALPA hierarchy has failed them and why it must be changed.
I believe that if we fail to get rid of Darke and his cronies,there is a real chance that BALPA as we know it ,will not exist for long.That would be tragic for all of us.
jumbodriver

Captain Airclues
13th May 2002, 16:22
John

From another thread it would seem that CD has not been devoting all of his energies to BALPA. Will any future candidate be asked for an assurance that he will devote 100% of his efforts to BALPA, considering the not insignificant salary.

Airclues

Tandemrotor
13th May 2002, 16:28
John - Good luck, as with very many others, you already have my vote.

BALPA members - We need to make 'our' association work for all of us, not just for the handful at the very top!

This is democracy in action! If we don't reclaim this organisation now, in 5 years time there may not be much left to argue over! Not to mention, much of a profession!

Take a stand. Send off your vote NOW for John Frohnsdorff, and let's get this flight to a more representative and accountable leadership off the ground.

We ALL deserve better than the present incumbent!!

To all 'non BA' members. This is not a coup by 'Nigels!'. You control 60% of the vote. You are in the driving seat! Let's open this door, and you will empower whoever YOU want!

unwiseowl
13th May 2002, 16:44
I work for a charter airline and have done my share of "nigel bashing" on pprune.

JF is a fully qualified, time served Nigel!
However, he is a pilot and I'm convinced that he's an honest man, so it's with enthusiasm that I vote JF.

GOOD LUCK, SIR!

John Frohnsdorff
13th May 2002, 19:18
Fokker

Thanks for the clear vision

Regards

John

Kurtz

I promised the moderator I would not campaign beyond my remit, however I am also on the BACC. My personal view is that both sets of pilots should be on the BA seniority list. In what order is the difficult problem as always!!

Regards

John

Jumbo Driver

Thanks Jumbo, we both think alike

Regards

John

Visual

1/ Yes, is the simple answer
2/ Yes, there are plenty more candidates than you realise.

Regards

John

Capt Airclues

I believe all of us are shocked by this revelation. We will be asking for such an assurance in future.

Regards

John

Tandemroter

Thanks for your support

Regards

John

Unwiseowl

Thanks again. I try and answer the Q's in a block. These have been VERY gratifying. However there are some people out there who are unhappy, they are entitled to anwers too. I hope they come on this forum.

Regards

John

Roobarb
14th May 2002, 08:23
Thanks, John for making yourself available to PPRuNe to discuss these vital issues. Could I please just stress once again that you are standing to give us all a second approach to this election following a successful go-around.

We need to start thinking now about candidates who we would wish to stand in the subsequent election, should you win. I urge everyone from no matter what company, or even independent BALPA members to choose candidates who you believe are equal to the task. This has to be done NOW!

I look forward to receiving lots of manifestos from a broad church of candidates.

In the meantime, John youíve had my vote.

http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.uk/roobarb/roohorn.gif
I'll take on the opposition anyday, it's my management I can't beat!

man u
14th May 2002, 09:12
All will be able to see that this is my first post. I have been moved to register and pass comment because of the amount of claptrap on this thread!

I am astonished that anyone is actually bothering to ask JF his view on where he stands on ANY subject given that JF has said many times that he is not standing for the GS' job - all he is doing is giving members an opportunity to take part in a vote of confidence.

He talks of returning Balpa to its members. What I don't want is a bl**dy pilot running the pilots' union, I want a professional union man who knows what he's doing! Pilots like to think they know everything about everything but sadly, they don't. They're great at dredging up past grudges, however!

As for going for the 'best' - I recall that Bob Ayling was once considered 'the best' (for his job)! It really is a case of whether you prefer 'the devil you know or the devil you don't know'.

Stop wasting JF's time asking where he stands on BA pilots working in GB or BACE etc - you would only get a 'political' answer anyway. This is election time after all - promise everything to everyone and don't upset the voters..........

Cynical? Only a little. I question the true motives, not those in the manifesto.

beaver eager
14th May 2002, 09:40
man u,

I don't really understand your post.

On the one hand you have grasped some of the issues invlolved quite well, and rightly point out where others are going wrong.

Unfortunately, you then go and spoil your sentiments by saying you don't want a pilot running the union, when John has clearly stated himself that he has no intention of doing so!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Air Mail
14th May 2002, 09:49
John,

If you are the vote winner, how will you ensure that all your time is devoted to the GS position? (until such time you find your succesor)

Is it safe to assume that for the period you are the GS, you will resign your position on the BA cc and stop your line flying activities?

Regards

John Frohnsdorff
14th May 2002, 10:24
Roobarb,

I am already aware of some likely candidates, unfortunately making approaches or advertising the position is somewhat premature at this stage. Please understand that I will move as expediently as I can.

Thanks for the vote.

Regards,
John

man u,

Thanks for taking the time to join PPruNe to have your say. I had to do the same procedure a few days ago. I do not see any direct questions but I would like to correct some misunderstandings.

People are asking my views because they want a sense of what sort of replacement GS we would be looking for and why we cannot have a direct vote on that individual. i.e. Why a stocking horse?

I only intend to be GS, if elected, for as long as it takes to find a mutually acceptable replacement.

Your comment about the devil leads me to believe you are not happy with the present GS yourself; in fact you just wish to maintain the status quo because it is easier.

I am not going to promise you or anyone else the moon to get elected.

Regards,
John.

Air Mail,

Thanks; I should have made it clear that I am about to retire from BA. My wife has made it crystal clear to me that she will only tolerate the delay in enjoying my retirement until I fulfil my promise to find a good GS.

Regards,
John.

pipistrelle
14th May 2002, 23:40
Dear TDKmk2,
my comments on the 'misemployment ' of non British pilots is mainly aimed at the companies involved in the practice of 'flagging out' , why only this evening loud and clear over the ether came the dulcet tones of an american using a callsign descriptive of a small bird of prey 'K*S*R*L' . I have no gripe with foreign pilots working here but I do have a major gripe with a system which allows british pilots to stay on the dole in their own country whilst foreigners take their jobs after all these brits have usually put all their cash into the british economy through the medium of british schools to attain their licences. As I said previously, when all the unemployed british pilots have a job then by all means welcome in the overseas pilots. Even worse is the flagrant abuse of our system by a certain irish company who continually trawl the world for pilots - to be based here, let them all stay in ireland, or make the company employ local nationals in all of their overseas bases.
Let me re-iterate that I don't have any hangups or racist animosity towards foreign pilots but I firmly believe that charity begins at home.

exeng
15th May 2002, 00:23
Hi john,

Obviously you have my vote. I sincerely hope you win this election; if you don't it is likely that BALPA will lose more than 50% of it's subsciptions.

I'm sure that a lot of you will find that hard to believe but it will happen. The last two letters to the membership were a definite attempt to sway the election towards Darky. I have e-mailed Chairman Granville and spoken at length to the Vice-Chairman Alan Wright about the morality of their letter. Both have been totally unrepentant because they believe they were justified in that their actions were upheld by the NEC and were found to be 'legal' by their lawyers. Both men supported Darky and the direction he has taken our association.

Here is a reply to the e-mail I sent to Chairman Granshaw the day before yesterday, and I quote directly "Naturally I obtained legal opinion before sending the letters and this has been endorsed by a closed session of the last NEC which found that our rules and the legislation had both been complied with."

God help us.


John, I desperately hope you are successfull in this election. If you are please make all efforts to ensure that our association is given back to the members.

I would like to see an association that is run on much leaner lines than the current model. I question the need for such large head office expenses. I would like to see the association run by the members for the members. I certainly question the need to pay large salaries for the Gen Sec's post. Given many peoples views on the way the association has been run of late I would question the need to have a general secretary at all.

I can envisage such an association being web based, no 'log', no 'airwaves' and virtually no communication costs. No company cars, mobile phone bills or office accommodation costs. All the current information would be available on a BALPA website accessible by password only to BALPA members. Any communications would in the main be by e-mail. There would be no expensive campaigns to recruit new members; new members would be welcome but growth for growths sake would cease to be a priority.

Perhaps no permanent staff at all, but secretarial services etc can be outsourced and bought in when required. The NEC and company councils would be responsible for the requisite information being provided to the members via the website. The 'log' and 'airwaves' would be made available also via the website. A discussion forum on the website would be very important as a source of information for the reps and the NEC on members views. Perhaps even elections could be carried out via this secure website!

An advantage to the members would be apparent in an immediate and substantial reduction in subscriptions. The main improvement however would be that the members would really see and believe that their association was being run entirely for the members benefit.

I can see argument that not all members would have access to the Internet, and to an extent this is true. However I believe that most members have access at home and I know that all B.A. members have access at work. In any case the savings a member would make on subscriptions would soon pay for means to access the Internet.

This would not be changes for changes sake but really would give BALPA back to the members. Of course I understand that many people would have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo but surely the paying members requirements should have priority.

I have been seeking BA member's opinions on creating a BA only Flight Crew union, a union that would be run on lines similar to that outlined above. The reaction has been mixed but mainly positive, however there are obvious concerns in regard to temporary lack of unity and possible lack of legal cover for members. I would prefer that BA members remain within BALPA, but only if BALPA makes great improvements to the way it is organised and run.


Regards
Exeng

crusin level
15th May 2002, 08:33
ExEng,
Lucky you to at least get a reply from BALPA.

My experience of late, on this and other issues, is that they have closed shop and ranks until the voting date.

CD - I know you read these posts. - rather quiet eh? I guess your too busy clearing your desk!

Nigel Nearly
15th May 2002, 09:24
General thrust of exeng's remarks are quite correct and admirable. I question the extent of the 'web' style office he proposes, but all the principle is bang on the money. The other remarkable benefit which exeng doesn't mention is that if subscriptions were significantly reduced, we would probably get the membership growth anyway, that's market forces for you.

Otherwise, yes, I believe he is right. My direct debit will be possibly cancelled the day the result is announced - if CD is re-elected. Granshaw's comments bear a resemblance to the attitude of the Euro-MP who commented that issues such as EU-wide policies were far too important to be left to truck drivers and shop assistants. In other words, as always happens down through the centuries, power detaches and then corrupts.

Time for a new broom methinks.

Someone cleverer than me has already commented that it is pointless asking John what his policies will be, as his intention in standing is to empower a new election with a wider range of candidates, who might per se actually be a bit more eloquent about THEIR policies and way forwards. This is where we are. If CD had had the confidence to throw an open election to begin with, John's action would not be necessary. CD's methodology has all the very worst elements of unionism, smoke filled rooms rigged elections etc - but not even any of the benefits usually associated with a strong union dealing with intransigent employers. I'm not a 'wrecker', but change is needed here. Good luck John - you must have a VERY understanding wife!!.

nickp
15th May 2002, 13:51
I am puzzled by the mechanism for the second election. If CD is not elected and JF then stands down, how are we going to persuade these individuals to stand for the second ballot if they cannot be persuaded to stand for the first one? I seem to remember this debate being held at great length when CD first stood - his only opponent had nothing to lose by declaring himself, and he subsequently went to work for BA didn't he?

John Frohnsdorff
15th May 2002, 15:44
Exeng,

I agree that the letter sent out by the NEC Chairman was, to say the least, unfortunate. It has had something of an adverse effect on how the result of this election, as you point out, will be viewed by some members.

The association does indeed need to be in a better financial situation. Whilst the thought of a web based union has cost attractions these have to be balanced against memberís wishes. You are right that as the years progress more and more emphasis will progress to internet based businesses. I just doubt whether forcing that change overnight is the right thing to do. You are correct about the cost savings but I would not force people into having to purchase computers, and the internet, just to obtain union representation. You are right though; it will come.

I would offer you a counter point on the subscription issue. I feel that people donít mind paying the 1% provided it is worth it; it all boils down to value for money. If we can provide value and cut costs there is nothing wrong with the association becoming more financially secure. The more secure it is the less likely employers would be to push too hard. I would offer you the example of US ALPA. They charge 2-2.5% have a very large bank reserve from which they pay strike salary. They recently took on Comair and funded their members for over 90 days and won. Now 2.5% is a lot of money but is it good value; ask the US pilots about their salaries. I am not advocating raising BALPA subscriptions; just increasing the value you get for your 1%.

I am aware of the increasing sentiment for a BA only union. I had hoped by standing and giving everyone an election that it would have cooled the issue. People would have had their democratic say and lived with the result; whatever it was. I didnít bargain on Mervynís letter making people feel more alienated.

Thanks for your vote.

Regards,
John.

Nigel Nearly,

If I tell my wife she is very understanding she will haul me out shopping for a reward. Iíll keep quiet!

Thanks for the good wishes.

Regards,
John.

Nickp,

I would only stand down after finding someone mutually acceptable. There does not have to be a second ballet provided the NEC also find the replacement individual acceptable. It would be unlikely that the NEC would proffer CD a second time.

Regards,
John

Paddington*
15th May 2002, 16:32
John,

If you won the election for the GS position and immediately stood down who would we expect to stand for the subsequent election and why do you feel that they would be more suitable than Chris Darke? Would they fairly represent ALL British airline pilots regardless of their company? Why haven't they already put their names forward for THIS election? It seems difficult to vote for (in effect) an unknown quantity. Presumably though we could always re-elect CD in the subsequent election if no better candidate came forward.

I'm all for changing a system if it doesn't appear to be working, but only if there's a better alternative.

I'm glad that these matters are being allowed to be debated publicly. Thanks for your time.

Regards

Paddington

John Frohnsdorff
15th May 2002, 17:08
Paddington*,

I would stand down when a good replacement had been found and would not just cut and run as you suggest. I have said in previous posts that it is easier to fill a definitely available position rather than a possible one.

The new GS would have to be acceptable to all members regardless of company. This is not a BA takeover as some have suggested.

With respect; I would suggest that you revisit some of my earlier replies. I think you will find they cover your remaining questions.

We really require a GS that brings the association together. I would suggest that it is obvious from our present position that CD is not that individual.

Regards,
John

TDK mk2
16th May 2002, 00:10
I hate to hijack this thread but I'm still not able to email Pipistrelle so will be brief. I have to say sir, that that 'system' which you say you have a gripe with provides us all with equal employment opportunity in this country and just because someone has a 'foreign' accent doesn't necessarily mean that they don't hold a red passport or aren't a fully paid up pilot in this country. Indeed if you heard my dulcet antipodean tones using a certain BA franchise callsign on your freqency how could you possibly know that I too will eventually hold a British passport and have 'invested' the better part of £30,000 of flying training into your British economy? So you tell me sir, am I any less worthy of my job than my British born coleagues because if I was sacked on the basis of my nationality I would have a case for discrimination and I would expect our union to represent me in the ensuing tribunal. Your contention that 'foreign' pilots shouldn't be allowed to work here until all British pilots have jobs is totally unworkable, highly unethical and would be illegal if those 'foreign' pilots had either an E.U. passport or a work visa granted by the Home Office.

High Volt
16th May 2002, 01:07
I believe that it is very easy to complicate this situation with issues of personality and personal perspective. Surely it is the mechanism of democracy that is under scrutiny here.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Chris Darke is a most capable professional and that he genuinely wishes to serve BALPA to the best of his ability. However, it is tough at the top and at that level we must always be vigilant for other fellows who are even more capable and efficient.

It is with this basic principle of democracy in mind that I have decided to back you John. Thankyou for your time and effort. I might add that the bias shown in some of the missives reaching my doormat has been most unprofessional. Just because something is legally correct, does not mean that it is morally right.

pipistrelle
16th May 2002, 03:00
TDKmk2, If you think that it is perfectly ethical to employ foreign pilots before british pilots that is your privelege, however I don't think you will get much support for your opinion at one of the balpa 'Unemployed Pilots' seminars. Do you really think we are playing from a level field? try working in america the land of the free!!maybe it is just because english is the so called language of aviation that makes it easy for people to slip into the british system. Again I reiterate that I believe a limited number of foreigners in almost any sphere is healthy but not to the detriment of the local unemployed workforce. There are obviously shades of grey and every case must be considered but again I stress, priority must be given to the local pilots, assuming all are equally qualified. As for the legal aspect of it possibly the statutes should be changed to protect the british pilots and not make it easy for the the continual influx. A couple of Irish buddies have the same gripe about being unable to get a job in their homeland because of the massive influx of foreign pilots there.

nickp
16th May 2002, 06:43
John
Your reply to me says that the replacement has to be acceptable to the NEC and your reply to Paddington says that he has to be acceptable to ALL MEMBERS. What you are trying to do is to get the membership to reject CD so that the NEC can choose a replacement and I do not believe that is democracy.

John Frohnsdorff
16th May 2002, 09:04
High Volt,

Thanks for your support and your vote.

Regards,
John.

Pipistrelle & TDK mk2,

With due respect gentlemen; I have answered both your questions. If you wish to carry out a private debate could you please do so under your own thread.

I am conscious of Dannyís (PPruNe) wishes in keeping this thread within narrow confines. Please help me with this!

Regards,
John

Nickp,

Why do you think that members having their say in an election is anything other then democratic? I have explained the position fully in both the manifesto and on this forum.

Surely if you feel that CD is the best person for the job you would have no fear of the outcome. People who are afraid of elections generally have something to fear and/or something they do not wish to discuss.

Frankly youíre in denial!

Regards,
John

TDK mk2
16th May 2002, 09:27
Pipistrelle, firstly as long as the U.K. remains a member of the European Union you can't as far as employment is concerned differentiate between any citizen of any of the member countries. And to suggest that for someone such as me, with indefinate leave to work and remain in this country, the difference between this time last year (when there was a relatively healthy employment situation for the pilot corps) and now (when there clearly isn't) is that they are somehow less worthy of employment than a British pilot is outrageous. To say that limited numbers of 'foreign' workers is healthy when it economically suits you but as soon as times get tough they should be ousted so that local workers can be employed is the usual position of some of our less appealing extreme right wing political groups. In the interests of CRM I strongly suggest that you do not expound this view to any 'foreign' colleagues you find yourself flying with...


Sorry John, I was typing this when you made your post - I invite Pipistrelle to email me with any further comment...

John Frohnsdorff
16th May 2002, 10:51
TDK mk2,

Thanks.

Regards,
John.

The Zombie
16th May 2002, 11:02
John,

I wish you well in your retirement and thank you for the huge effort that you have given to BALPA over the years !!!

Before you go to pastures green you are supporting a valuable principle.

It is gratifying to see a senior pilot colleague generously give up their time to support the principle that the General Secretary post should be chosen by the members with a free democratic process. Ten years ago it was, but five years ago it was not a free vote.

This means that a BALPA rule change may now be required.

You have had my vote John and as such I feel the time is right for a new head office team, starting with a new GS. Chirs Darke has achieved some good things...........

..............BUT GOOD ENOUGH NEVER IS !!............

................Let's return our union to all the members by a free vote.

The best man should then win in the view of the whole membership.


ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.............

John Frohnsdorff
16th May 2002, 14:12
The Zombie,

Thank you for those kind words.

Regards,
John

nickp
16th May 2002, 17:16
John
I retired seven years ago and the outcome of this election will have absolutely no effect on me at all. My concern is that this is not a ballot between two or more people, any of whom is genuinely standing for the job. The membership is voting for CD or A N Other and that is not how elections should be held.
If CD is not reelected, the membership will have not have voted for the new Gen Sec. Frankly, the prospect of the NEC being in a position to choose the Gen Sec concerns me, why bother with elections for the members next time round at all?
Your resorting to insults confirms my suspicions that there is something not quite right about this set up as it is being presented.

John Frohnsdorff
16th May 2002, 17:47
Nickp,

I am sorry my remarks came across as an insult they were not intended as such; they were only intended as a clear statement.

Like you I will shortly be retired; I would like to leave the association in better shape than it presently is. I would observe that if you have been retired for seven years you have possibly been spared the discontent that has arisen within BALPA. Ignoring that division and discontent is not a wise course of action. If left to fester it will only get worse and not having this election would do that very thing. I take your point that the outcome will not affect you either way.

I do not quite understand your statement about the NEC being in a position to choose the GS. They are presently involved in an election only because I have stood against CD otherwise you would not have had any choice at all. You seem to be of the opinion that this make me less democratic somehow. I do not understand your point.

The NEC can offer a candidate for election and that election may or may not be contested; as it is now. It is unlikely however that it would be CD again if the election result went against him. I say again; I hope to find a replacement acceptable to all.

Regards,
John

sky9
16th May 2002, 18:01
John,
I see that Chris Darke is involved with the Competition Commissioner
http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/cgi-bin/expiscor (then search: darke)

Has he done so with the authority of the NEC? And would I be right in my reading of their accounts that it involves 1 1/2 days a week. I also note in the accounts that members get paid for this.

If the answer to my question is yes, as a member of the NEC could you advise me why they have approved a 31/2 day a week GS or am I missing something? (like it's actually the film critic who is on the Competition Commission.)
I was interested to note that there is nothing on the chrisdarke.com that meantions this other interest. Is it something that we should know

John Frohnsdorff
16th May 2002, 18:35
sky9,

I have only become aware of this fact within the last week. I was not informed of this extra activity on his part; and Iím on the NEC.

I cannot begin to express my feelings on this revelation and I will be raising the matter for discussion at the earliest opportunity.

I have contacted several other NEC members and have been advised that they did not know either.

Regards,
John.

fred peck
16th May 2002, 22:04
This is the photo included in the bio of "Chris Darke" on the Competition Commission website.

Doesn't look much like the bloke in the Log.



http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/about/davidstark.jpg

sky9
16th May 2002, 22:12
Fred
I draw your attention to this page 19. It seems like Chris Darke to me
http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/review/cc2000.pdf

John Frohnsdorff
16th May 2002, 22:33
fred peck,

The site uses the same photo for two people in error.

The written biography indicates it is indeed the GS of BALPA that is working for them.

Regards,
John

Greenfinch
17th May 2002, 09:12
Hello John,

You have my vote - and from what I'm hearing you have the vote of many of my colleagues.

Best of luck.

Greenfinch:)

John Frohnsdorff
17th May 2002, 11:29
Greenfinch,

Thanks; that's good to know.

Regards,
John

man u
18th May 2002, 10:02
John,

In the event that CD wins the election, given that you are so passionately anti CD, will you and your NEC supporters:

be willing to work with CD?

or resign from the NEC?

or try to set up a separate BA pilots' uniion?

John Frohnsdorff
18th May 2002, 10:52
man u,

To be accurate we are pro democratic choice not anti CD. We do not believe that CD is the man for the job but if he is elected then I will certainly comply with the will of the members and work with him. I am concerned that he apparently has at least two jobs; Balpa and the competition commission.

I have always argued against a break away BA union and by standing I had hoped to reduce the problem by allowing people a say. People tend to accept situatuons provided they have had a choice and a democratic vote. This election is meant to be constructive and not destructive as some would have you believe.

As for whether Mervyn's first letter will hind this process remains to be seen.

Regards,
John

MrBunker
20th May 2002, 23:04
John,

Just to say from a terribly junior man in your company, we're delighted that someone has finally had the courage to stand up and fight for a change from the unacceptable status quo. All power to you. You've got my vote and that of my peers.

Keeping my fingers crossed!

John Frohnsdorff
21st May 2002, 17:52
Harrison Birtwistle & MrBunker,

Thanks for the votes.

Regards,
John

John Frohnsdorff
21st May 2002, 19:56
Dear All,

Thanks for contributing to this thread. I have asked for the thread to be released into a free float, so that it does not remain artificially at the top of the list any more.

I will still be around for any questions but you will have to locate the thread as you would normally.

Regards,
John.

LJ.543
22nd May 2002, 16:19
Much has been made on this thread (and others) about Chris Darke's connection with the Competition Commission. There appears to be some innuendo and much speculation but very little hard fact.

Here are the facts. The arrangement dates back a number of years and pre-dates John Frohnsdorff's arrival on the NEC. Not suprising therefore, that JF was not aware of it.

Chris Darke is categorised as an 'occasional member' of the Competition Commission. This means that he is not committed to the CompCom and is free to accept or reject work from them if it does not fit with his BALPA duties. Most of the work involves reading papers which CD is able to do in his own time at home in the evenings. Over the last twelve months, CD has undertaken a total of 10.5 (ten and a half) days work for the CompCom. Some have been in his own time and some on a joint basis with BALPA work.

I believe that this work will be of benefit to our members for the following reasons. It gains our General Secretary experience in competition issues, increases the number of contacts that BALPA has and gains stature for our Union.

If the predictions made for the next few years in European aviation are true - massive rationalisation and mergers leaving 5 major full service carriers and two charter carriers - the experience CD has gained in the CompCom would be invaluable to our members.

Recently, the number of helicopter operators on the North Sea has decreased from three to two when Bond and Brintel merged. The Chairman of the Company Council of the merged enterprise has gone on record as saying Chris Darke's experience and expertise in the CompCom was invaluable during the negotiations.

So there we have it. Not quite the juicy piece of gossip that all you Chris Darke bashers hoped for is it ? Still never mind, never spoil a good story by under-exaggerating eh chaps?

John Frohnsdorff
22nd May 2002, 19:00
LJ.543,

It is interesting that CD himself appears not to agree with your view point. His manifesto and web site could hardly be classified as shy and retiring; yet it completely omits to mention involvement with the competition commission. One would therefore assume that he feels it would not be advantageous to speard the word of this other job to the members.

I liked the idea that it is somehow acceptable that subsequent NEC committees should be kept in the Darke about a previous committee's decision. Why don't we expand that idea to our national general elections; it could be so much fun. Just imagine the previous conservative goverment saying to labour "Well we know you won the election but you weren't there when we bought Trident and so we are not obliged to give you the codes; so there!"

But hey; who am I to spoil your sterling attempt at spin!

Regards,
John

LJ.543
22nd May 2002, 20:44
Speaking as a master of spin, you should know!

As a new NEC member, do you expect to be briefed on every decision that every previous NEC has made back to the year dot?

Oh dear! Methinks he doth protest too much!!

PS sorry to spoil your little game.

Notso Fantastic
22nd May 2002, 22:00
Wherever do you get that interpretation of John F's behaviour or what he says? I would say he has spoken nothing but stone cold common sense! If you are going to revert to abuse, can you give specific examples of 'spin' as you call it? What 'game' are you talking about? Are you completely sane?

John Frohnsdorff
23rd May 2002, 16:21
LJ.543,

It is perfectly reasonable to expect ,as a new NEC member, to be informed that the GS has other jobs. In fact I would expect that every member be informed; they all pay his salary and deserve as much. He does have a column in log he could have used for this purpose.

Regards,
John.

Notso,

Thanks.

Regards,
John

Captain Correlli
23rd May 2002, 18:08
Interesting and thought provoking that John deals in facts, but 'innuendo' is certainly the method used by LJ.543.

FACT: Darke has a part time commitment to bodies other than his primary employer (us)

FACT: He does not bother to let us know about this. If it is all so much above board, one must wonder why.

FACT: Its only LJ who is apparently in the know about the frighteningly exact details of Darkes moonlighting. (Now how could he know that so accurately, details of reading at home,.......................?)

I like John's analogy re Trident, that sums it up quite well. We will all shortly see where we have voted, (you got my vote John!).

Finally, while I think LJ may be correct in his view of the medium term future and its challenges, some of us would say there have been a fair old number of changes and challenges in the LAST ten years. Darke's reaction to those has been to increase membership, increase BALPA deficit, and watch all our Ts and Cs decline steadily along with our remuneration. God only knows where we will be in another decade if CD stays at the helm.

(Tony Blair is always looking for good spin doctors though LJ, maybe you, Chris and Merv could get a position with New Labour!
:rolleyes: )

airrage
24th May 2002, 00:02
LJ
Most of the work involves reading papers which CD is able to do in his own time at home in the evenings.

airrage
I want a BALPA GS that does BALPA work in his own time at home in the evenings.

LJ
Over the last twelve months, CD has undertaken a total of 10.5 (ten and a half) days work for the CompCom.

airrage
If these most specific figures are in fact correct, he owes us 10.5 days from his full-time pay. In other words 10.5days too many.

LJ
the experience CD has gained in the CompCom would be invaluable to our members.

airrage
Lets get a GS that already has the needed experience, we are not trying to build CD's CV for his next job, but protect pilots pay, T &C's. This he has failed miserably for 10years now. It's someone else's turn.

The main pro-Darke comment I consistently see is how he has managed to increase membership effectively. On his website he says.......In the last year we signed recognition deals withÖ

Air 2000
Airtours
bmi baby
Bristow Helicopters
British European
British Regional Airlines
Bryman
buzz
CityFlier
easyJet
GB Airways
GO
jmc
Loganair
Maersk
ScotAirways
Virgin Atlantic

Yet no one has mentioned that this great last years success with the toughnuts like Virgin are coincidental with the change in UK union recognition laws, which in effect force firms to recognise any union should they get more than 50% support from their workforce. Mister Bean could have got union recognition by Virgin if 50% of their pilots had voted for him.

John Frohnsdorff
24th May 2002, 07:37
Captain Correlli,

Spot on!

Regards,
John

airrage,

Good points!

Regards,
John

Hot Wings
24th May 2002, 09:41
LJ - you sound like another member of the old guard! Don't knock those of us who are fed up with the status quo and those people who have the willingness to hear what the members are saying and then have the courage do something about it. This is not a game.

John - you have my vote.

John Frohnsdorff
24th May 2002, 10:02
Hot Wings,

Thanks.

Regards,
John