easyJet Lisbon pilots announcing 5 days of strike

[zumzum]

easyJet's Portugal pilots plan Christmas-New Year strike | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/easyjets-portugal-pilots-plan-christmas-new-year-strike/story-e6frfq80-1226771849427)

[gundam]

What Easyjet management has done in the past two years in Lisbon is simply crazy. It sounds really unbelievable from the Orange Spirit company. And now they are looking for volunteers to replace the pilots going on strike.....I mean ...REALLY? Pilots on strike and some colleagues go to Lisbon to replace them????? Who has proposed that should be ashamed of himself for the rest of his life and the same for the pilots accepting to go, but I understand that slavery is not an option.... What a dark moment for aviation....

[kungfu panda]

If the same situation happened in the united states( the bastion of capitalism), the Pilots breaking the strike would be excommunicated and blacklisted on a permanent basis which would effect not only their current lifestyle but also future work potential.

In my view industrial action by one group of Pilots should be respected by other groups. We have seen this profession degenerate enough, without putting the accerarator on ourselves.

[Captaintcas]

Anyone breaking a strike needs to be blacklisted as an unreliable crewmember and treated as such for the rest of his/ her career.

If during this strike you are called in to cover for striking collegues, only one possibility, and that is to call in sick or to tell bluntly that you are not willing to break industrial action by collegues.

Have some balls for God sake and stop being the typical selfish but oh so afraid pilot. In any other industry, strike action is followed by everyone and management would not even think about replacing a striking crowd by "volunteers" from a different base/factory. They would all refuse.

Any strikebreaker is not worth being part of a crew as a crew needs trust as a first priority.

[captplaystation]

Do BALPA have any take on this, or are they being as lilly livered as they always were when asked to step up to the plate in Ryanair.

Maybe not (strictly speaking) "their patch", but surely some guidance & support could be provided to UK based/contracted pilots to enable them to support their Portugese based/contracted colleagues.

This whole divide/conquer cancer has to be resisted. When Contractors (or should that be pilots employed by wholly owned subsidieries ?) in Norwegian outnumber "core" pilots I hope enough progress has been made to enable (for example ) the ECA to coordinate things a bit better than seems to be the case thus far in Ryan or Easy.

It ain't rocket science, but I have the perception the will/impetus is somewhat missing in this task.

[Captaintcas]

Do not be so ridiculous mr. Smith, if there is any common sense and crew spirit in the Orange Army, then any sacking due to refusing to cover for striking crew, should in their turn result in a massive and immediate strike by all pilots in the company. Or are all Easyjet Officers cowards:rolleyes:

[LNIDA]

Agreed, but there are those amongst our rank who would see this an opportunity to lick the dick of management for personal gain, sadly.....

It would be very different of course if they hired in the likes of Titan to replace striking crews, much more difficult call for their pilots...

[wiggy]

Let's try this again. Any pilots who refuse to operate the affected flights will be in breach of their contract of employment. They will be sacked for this breach. UK employment legislation is not friendly towards secondary industrial action.


Agreed, I sometimes do wish that it wasn't so but in the UK the consequences of taking unprotected Industrial action can be catastrophic.

I'm not saying it's right, so please don't shoot the messenger:

Maclay Murray & Spens LLP - Email Updates (http://www.mms.co.uk/MMSKnowledge/email-news.aspx?pageid=54234)

[Narrow Runway]

I don't follow why it would be a difficult call for Titan (or any other ACMI company) pilots.

If such a scenario were to be played out, I doubt very much if the average e.g. Titan pilot would be aware of the fact that easyJet pilots were on strike in Lisbon.

All that would happen would be that the phone would ring and crewing would tell them to go an fly in Lisbon for a few days. And they would merrily go off and do just that.

The fact that a strike may be ongoing is irrelevant - in fact if an e.g. Titan pilot refused to go to cover such a series of flights, they may well be breaking the law as well. Who knows, but I wouldn't want to be a test case....

Let's hope the sorry mess gets cleared up before it reaches that stage anyway.

[Greenlights]

Let's try this again. Any pilots who refuse to operate the affected flights will be in breach of their contract of employment. They will be sacked for this breach. UK employment legislation is not friendly towards secondary industrial action.

yes, and that's why some people cooperated during WWII. :suspect:
If you don't fight or you are just a sheep following others sheeps, we will always get our terms and conditions lower and lower.... :D:D:D

[easy]

Got to love the muppets who believe in Father Christmas and the Strike fairy:ugh:

[JeroenC]

Who needs to permit a strike? (Genuine question)

[speedrestriction]

Out of interest, what is the LIS package?

[highflyer40]

jero- there are protected strikes and unprotected strikes. protected strikes your employer can't take any action agaisnt you, however an unprotected strike and they can kick you out the door with no notice needed, and if it is found that your union condoned your actions they can be liable for any losses the company suffers.

in the uk supportive strike action is illegal!

you can only have a protected strike action for lawful reasons, so striking because someone was fired because they didn't want to fly the affected routes would be illegal, hence unprotected.

[FliegerTiger]

the "type" of pilot that would work for the likes of Easy or Ryan

There are plenty of pilots within BA, Virgin, Emirates et al who have previously worked for EZY or Ryanair - what type of pilot is that then exactly? Quite frankly I find your tone offensive, justagigolo77.

John Smith is right - any UK-contract pilot going on sympathy strike would leave themselves open to dismissal for gross misconduct. European-contract crews, on the other hand, have the right to refuse and I believe historically have done so.

Wind your neck in!

[WHYEYEMAN]

Justagigolo, you clearly have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

THYTHY, the way Easyjet works is that they get their pound of flesh out of you when you first join and then things steadily improve for you. Right or wrong, it's the way it is. If 4000 people applied for 120 jobs at YOUR company, how would you react?

[WHYEYEMAN]

Which is why they're taking industrial action Sick.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Hmm - am I not right in thinking that Lisbon pilots are permenantly condemned to much poorer terms for doing essentially the same job for the same company as you?

Which is why they're taking industrial action Sick.

But didn't they sign on the dotted line to accept those T's & C's in the first place:ugh:

It's no good signing up then a few months down the line threatening to strike because the sums don't add up:=

As for others covering the affected routes, isn't this just the same as when BA cabin crew went on strike and many airlines jumped in to cover making a nice little sum in the meantime:ok:, can't remember that causing a fuss or anybody saying those airlines/crews were doing wrong, except the strikers of course:rolleyes:

[WHYEYEMAN]

Why does signing a contract mean you can't take industrial action?

Explain please.

You can hardly take strike action if you didn't sign a contract.

[highflyer40]

well you can not really (or should I say should not) take industrial action over T&C's you knowingly signed up for...unless they have changed for the worse since you signed up.

[JeroenC]

HF40. So are legit striking reasons embedded in the law?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Gigoloboy.

I worked for ezy for several years. I work for BA now. I can confirm the "type" of pilot that works for ezy is cunningly similar to the "type" of pilot that works for BA - funny that. The LIS contract is :mad:. I was offered a command in ezy in LIS, just before I quit. No thanks.

Good luck to those going on strike, that is their call. No other ezy pilots will actively attempt to strike-break. Being instructed by the company to operate out of LIS is something very different to what you and a few other armchair heroes are mud-slinging about.

How do you know a "majority, no question" of easyjet pilots would willingly sabotage a strike?
Have you worked there? Do you know any easyjet pilots?

I'm just curious because you state your opinion as fact, and having worked for ezy I'm pretty sure the "majority, no question" of ezy pilots, not to mention pilots in other airlines, would review your comments and dismiss you as an idiot.

[Bokkenrijder]

Originally posted by THYTHY:I regret to inform these Lisbon based pilots that I fail to see whatever set of moral values they can invoke to justify this strike, and I am sure that Easyjet's management goons will have the time of their lives roasting your b*ts , because you sold it to them by accepting conditions that further push our Profession into the abyss .Partly true, because you also have to blame it on the already employed, Stockholm Syndrome suffering, fence sitting EZ pilots who basically let the LIS pilots fend for themselves...and now that they do fight for themselves some people are again complaining! :ugh:

Perhaps in retrospect it was a smart move from the LIS pilots: join a financially successful company by initially accepting the crappy 'take-it-or-leave-it' offer on the table. Now that they have more leverage by actually being employed and being covered by Portuguese Law, they turn that very same table and 're-negotiate' the contract! Well done boys and girls! :D

[justagigolo77]

Several people in this and the Ryanair forums have tried to discredit me by saying I have no clue, but yet, not a single person has had a single credible rebute to my statements except to say "I don't know what I'm talking about". Well here's the thing, I do know, and I'm sorry that you have all been caudled and had your hands held for so long that you can't handle someone actually calling you on it.

Where's that apple? :rolleyes:

[average-punter]

I’m afraid that your constant insults towards easyJet and its staff are becoming somewhat tedious and actually quite irritating. Considering you work in Canada, I’m struggling to see what you actually know or understand about the situation in Lisbon.

I am certain that no one signed the Lisbon contract to ‘fly the big shiny jet’ and for many people your tone is actually quite offensive considering you know nothing about their personal situation (and no it's not because they "know you're right"). The Lisbon contract is dismal, however if you were out of work and had a family to feed I very much doubt you’d say no to the Lisbon contract on the ‘moral highground’. Now the pilots down there are trying to do something about the situation and yet you still aren’t satisfied and still have some personal vendetta against a European airline which you will more than likely never work for. In a very recession-hit Europe people are trying to grab whatever job they can to make ends meet, pay back the mortgage and feed the family, not just in the aviation industry. If someone who was in this situation said no to a job on the grounds that it ‘undermines their profession’ then they would be clinically insane.

I, like many others am interested to know the ‘type’ of the pilot that works for easyJet. It’s a ridiculous and factually untrue statement to say most pilots flying for easyJet are ‘spoilt rich kids’. From where I’m standing I would say a friendly, professional group of individuals who have joined easyJet for a whole host of reasons. We have some very experienced Captains, many of which coming from BA after compulsory retirement at 55. Furthermore many of the pilots have come from other airlines; on top of that we have ex-flight instructors, ex-military pilots and cadets. People weren’t blinded by shiny jet syndrome; they were trying to get their first job.

easyJet is not perfect and I won’t sit here and pretend it is. However if you’re looking for a secure employer flying short haul around Europe then there aren’t many better options. I like many other pitch up (or used to) at easyJet for a honest days work. (and no I'm not an EJ pilot, I was the other side of the flight deck door)

Your entire posting history stinks of arrorgance. This will be my first and last contribution to this thread.

[Klimax]

Could someone please post the conditions, just simple numbers like monthly (how many) salary, pension contribution, days off/month, annual leave.
It's a bit hard to judge what is so bad, not knowing these data.

[Skipping Classes]

Compare this to Wizz Air fresh Captain contract:

40k annual, with only 11 months guaranteed (the company has a right to give you one month of unpaid leave a year at their discretion - so it could work out to 36,333k annual) plus sector pay 60/sector for a medium sector. Lets say average 40 landings a month. Are you still complaining?

[Rocket Ron]

there is no question in my mind I would never work for the likes of easy

Justagigolo77, there's probably no question in anybody else's mind either.

[Narrow Runway]

Just because there may be a lower paying contract elsewhere doesn't mean the easyJet LIS contract is good.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Gigolo, you have stated that you don't have the intellect to become a doctor or a lawyer and from your comments here I can absolutely believe that. A few of our cadet pilots came from previous careers in medicine and the law by the way.

As someone who flies with these 'spoilt rich kids' with little or no flying ability, I am happy to tell you that your fears surrounding piloting skill are unfounded. I am regularly impressed with the way our cadets handle the aircraft. I have only had to say 'I have control' 3 times and 2 of those times were with senior FO's who worked their way up through the ranks so to speak. If you were to look at their CV's you would think that they really should have known better! The cadets don't make it through their courses at CTC or Oxford if they're not up to scratch and nobody makes it through Easy's training dept. if they're not up to the job.

Are Easyjet saving money every time they employ a cadet over an experienced FO? Yes.

Are Easyjet guaranteeing themselves a high calibre young pilot? Yes.

Does this give high calibre individuals a route into flying for a blue chip airline PLC? Yes.

That's why the system works.

Is everyone a winner? No. There are plenty of pilots stuck in dead end jobs for whom Easyjet hasn't been an option for the last few years. That has now changed however and as I speak we have experienced type rated and non-type rated pilots joining the company.

Gigolo, you are commenting on something you clearly know very little about. There's nothing stopping you doing that, but I do think you should try to take this fact on board if you are able.

[scrotometer]

Mr Jigolo,
I've worked for Ezy for over 10 years and I've never paid for a type rating, that's Bus and Boeing.
From the garbage coming out of your mouth I suggest that you don't work for any airline.
You are an ignorant condescending :mad:

[A and C]

I think that we should leave the moral high ground to Mr Jigolo, it is clear that he is holding this in the strange little world that he lives.

Meanwhile the rest of us will have to battle with the reality of keeping the kids fed and the mortgage paid.

[justagigolo77]

FYI, much to the dismay of everyone here to be sure, I will not be posting on this thread anymore. I believe I have made my point and refuse to go in circles with the likes.

Good luck with the strike, let's see how it works out for Easy, LIS pilots and other based Easy pilots. I guess time will tell how far off I am. I'm going to bet it won't be too far.

So long

[Aluminium shuffler]

Having worked for a few locos, and knowing plenty of people in both the main EU rivals and many other EU airlines too, I can honestly say they they aren't of any specific type. They are just like other airlines' pilots. Some very ill-informed people will suggest that loco pilots are in some way inferior, but if that were the case, why would the legacy carriers be so keen on recruiting them? I can't see an inferior class of pilot dealing with so many NPAs on to postage stamp sized contaminated runways with next to no company support and so much time pressure not coming a cropper; the conditions that they operate in without any significant statistical incident blip shows they are mostly very capable indeed.

As for their attitudes and them letting the industry slide, some people do not have the luxury of sitting unemployed until the plumb jobs open up for them, and if they did they'd be so far out of currency that they'd be unemployable. You have to take the jobs that are available, and you can't dictate terms from outside. Some also put family before job satisfaction, and would rather work for an unpleasant employer or for lower salaries than leave their family, and I count myself amongst those.

So, should those individuals be barred from trying to improve their lot? Of course not. And by improving conditions at one of the locos, other rivals will have to up their game to compete, and ultimately so will the legacy carriers. So rather than condemning these guys, they should be applauded and encouraged.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

As someone who flies with these 'spoilt rich kids' with little or no flying ability,...I have only had to say 'I have control' 3 times and 2 of those times were with senior FO's who worked their way up through the ranks so to speak.

In nearly twenty years of not flying with spoilt rich kids I have had to say "I have control" precisely zero times.

[WHYEYEMAN]

But to be fair, the Airbus can be a little trickier than turboprops and barbie-jets. :E

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You've never flown a Q400 then:ok:

[RexBanner]

Amen to that LordSpandexMaster, I've recently moved from Q400 to A320 and the difficulty in handling the latter compared to the former is quite staggering. In a good way.

[FANS]

Debatable. I would be happy to put their hand flying skills up against just about any North American pilot who has worked his way up rather than flight school to airliner

Today, you don't need to be ace with 20-20 uncorrected vision, lightning reflexes, perfect co-ordination etc etc. Therefore, the supply of people is much greater, and it's impacted upon the price 20 years after the introduction of the A320.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Seriously though, if that is the case then I am genuinely looking forward to flying with some of your ex-colleagues. :ok:

[justagigolo77]

@FANS,

Nope, handflying skills are useless, inexperienced 250 hr super star airline f/o's could handle this no problem and know when to say enough?

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/529258-two-aborted-landings-birmingham-today.html

These are 2 of the newest aircraft types being flown and very automated. The first one is a 777, same type as Asiana in SFO, no? (flown by people with no other experience but airliner "button pushing"), the second is the same type as the Colgan KBUF crash, no? (Also piloted by low time direct airline crew member). There are 2 very direct examples of how experience, saves lives!!

[Alexander de Meerkat]

justagiglio77 - given that you have never flown, and are never likely to fly, either a Boeing or an Airbus, I am not sure you are really in a position to criticise any of their pilots. Going around from unstable approaches is a key skill of any commercial airline pilot, and anyone who does so is commended in my airline rather than criticised. I realise in the 'can do' world of GA where you live and dwell (which coincidentally has a 5 times greater accident rate than commercial aviation) that is not how things work. Nonetheless, we can be assured you are a very talented chap, because you have told us so. The stats are very interesting:

Accident statistics (http://planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm)

[captplaystation]

Think we are veering away from the point here.

I am guessing LIS based pilots either were

A - Portugese & happy to find a job at home

B - Chose the base to get a quick command

C - got sent there when the (very- for employees ) lucrative MAD base was closed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but, in any case, life in LIS is not so cheap (certainly the tax bill) so, it is normal that these guys want to be renumerated on a similar level to other bases. . . so much for 1 happy family :hmm: I hope other bases do what they (legally ) can to help them achieve parity with those doing the same job for the same company. . . END OF.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Jig - Asiana pilots were experienced, as were the Birmingham Al A300 guys, the TK AMS Capt and observer, the Colgan, SW excursions and nosewheel guys, the American Cali and the Atlas guys who landed at the wrong airport. Stop flogging a dead horse.

[justagigolo77]

Playstation is correct, however shuffler, pushing buttons and cruising for hours and hours while reading the newspaper or eating your crew meal is NOT experience! All the examples I mentioned were these types of crews, inexperienced in basic skills!

[captplaystation]

justagigolo77,

honestly, I pretty much agree/respect all the things you are saying, but. . .wrong thread mate := I think it is important to stay " on topic", this is a rather serious thread related to divide & conquer, which you possibly know (even from a distance) is what is screwing this profession for anyone working in Europe.. . . even if you include the "mighty" Lufthansa (via Eurowings)

Crew experience/competency are a whole other thread, but, respectfully, not on this one . Ta :ok:

[justagigolo77]

Yes I do agree Capt, my apologies. The thread did morph and I'm sure that's the reason another thread was started.

On Topic, there will be a lot more said if we see a large pilot group roll over and bend over the barrel with the reasoning "well if I don't, someone else will". That is the most ludicrous justification for accepting any reduced conditions. Stick together, no doubt, but this should have never happened in the first place had selfish pilots and greedy companies not allowed it to happen.

[stiglet]

As far as the company were concerned LIS was started and always intended as a lower cost base. All the employees and outsiders in the know knew that. Some opted for all sorts of reasons to take the job at LIS in full knowlegde of the situation/contract. Once the positions were filled the company had their wish.

There is no real justification now in demanding equality with other bases. By all means fight like everyone else to improve T&C but don't expect parity with the other countries now. Notwithstanding that both sides have to honour the signed contracts. If the company are breaking any part of the contract I can understand the strike call; if not I cannot see the justification for a strike. The only thing that will improve the T&C now are supply and demand; if there are no pilots willing to take the jobs in LIS as the need arises the offer will improve.

[kungfu panda]

Stiglet your post requires me to restrain my anger.

Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz etc. have CEO's and Management who have been amongst the most manipulative in recent business history, they have exploited loopholes in the laws of different countries within the EU and have entirely disregarded the spirit of the Law. The Airline industry is the only industry which allows for this kind of exploitation.

I do not know the history of Easyjet in Madrid or in Lisbon, but it appears to me that closing the base in Madrid and opening a base in Lisbon was another method of manipulating the EU laws to benefit Easy shareholders and was to the detriment of Pilots and their families who had moved to their base in Madrid. They were then probably offered a take it or leave it offer in Lisbon, which of course they had to take because they need to support their families.

Throughout europe over the last 200 years our grandparents and great grandparents have fought for the right to negotiate with employers in a collective bargaining unit for the best possible terms that we can achieve. In attempting to improve our life and that of our family we have the right to withdraw our Labor within the guidelines of the law. This is a right under all Laws within Europe.

It appears to me that the Pilots based in Lisbon have very ligitimate reasons to strike, they have been coersed into signing an entirely unfair contract, that does not meet company standard.

For better paid colleagues to come in from another base to break the strike is unforgivable. It is equivalent to stealing from your own family.

I know that you talk about supply and demand and I am not a socialist but pure capitalism in it's extreme gives all the money to very few people and leaves everybody else without. We are entitled to use our power to strike as a means to maintain the balance.

[Xulu]

Ummm, those that will get called off standby on Christmas morning, to position to Lisbon to operate earlies on Boxing Day are selfish?

Really?? :ugh:

The company don't care, as long as the flights still go. So why should UK pilots pay the price, and be demonised at the same time?

[stiglet]

Xulu - UK pilots are obligued to 'pay the price' as we are constrained by our contracts and UK law regardless of our views on the strike action. To refuse would render us liable to breaking our contracts and therefore in jeopardy of disciplinary action.

[kungfu panda]

What a wonderful Christmas present you guys are prepared to give your Lisbon based colleagues (who are sticking their necks out far further than the English guys dare), break their ligitimate industrial action.

I personally believe that to do that would be beneath contempt, but look after no.1, I know.....:D

[stiglet]

kunfu panda - companies are here for the benefit of shareholders not pilots. The closeure of MAD was purley a commercial decision. Noone was offerred a 'take it or leave it' offer to move to LIS. When MAD was closed they were offerred choices of bases in the network and I understand a very satisfactory financial package. I don't know how many if any opted for LIS.

Of course we all have the right to negotiate our terms and conditions and, within the law take industrial action. No one was 'coersed' into signing 'an entirely unfair contract' they knew exactly what the contract was and they took it, if they want to renegotiate their contract that is up to them. Whether either side has broken the terms of their contract has yet to be established. As for colleagues to be accussed of strike breaking is unfair as we are constrained by our contracts. If the company ask us to fly we are obligued to comply as, I believe, we are not permitted (under UK law) to take secondary action in support of the LIS pilots. As an employee my loyalties are split between my company and my colleagues and indeed the passengers who untimately pay my wages. I have been in the company a long time and as far as employers go I have found easyJet to be very fair.

Whether you believe any contract is good or bad is subjective as it takes so many personal factors into account. Objectively this contract is generally considered poor in relation to the other easyJet contracts however regarding the industry as a whole none of us are badly paid.

[kungfu panda]

Stiglet, I would hope that companies work as a result of cooperation between employee's and shareholders, collective bargaining allows a fair balance to be found between profitability and remuneration; provided that it is done responsibly.

As I acknowledged in my first post, I know nothing about Easyjet or the closure of the base in Madrid. I made an assumption which may well have been wrong.

I do however believe that Pilots generally are excessively reasonable with Managements who stop at nothing to push terms and conditions down "in the race to the bottom". When a group of Pilots reach the point where they really feel they need to take industrial action, then in all probability it is because nothing else has worked.

You are correct- "whether any contract is good or bad is subjective" therefore as a colleague of the Lisbon Pilots you should accept their point of view and acknowledge their right to strike without the intention to interfere with that strike.

By the way your view of secondary action is skewed, if the Lisbon Pilots travelled to England to prevent you from flying out of London then that would be secondary action. In fact, what you and your English colleagues are planning to do is to travel to Lisbon and fly the Aircraft normally flown by the Lisbon based guys..... if you refused to do it, that would not be secondary action in the same way that one person working in one factory would not be carrying out secondary action if he refused to travel to a striking factory to operate the equipment of the striking factory.

I do believe that travelling to Lisbon to operate the aircraft that your striking colleagues normally operate is beneath contempt.

[Narrow Runway]

I'm certain BALPA will have a view on the situation.

However, has anyone checked to see what the legal stance is when considering the following:

LIS based pilots are, presumably, on contracts that are water tight under Portuguese law and English EasyJet pilots are, presumably, on water tight UK contracts.

Would a UK based pilot be taking secondary action if asked to break a Portuguese contract based strike?

I'm certain that easyJet contracts will contain a stipulation that the company "reserves the right to make a pilot work at other network bases" (or such).

However, whether or not they can compel you to break a strike, in a foreign land, may be a point worth asking before accepting or declining such a Christmas morning offer.

[stiglet]

kungfu panda - I do accept they have a view and I do acknowledge their right to choose to strike if they wish. Where we differ is on what action I, or other easyJet pilots not based in LIS and not on LIS contracts, can and cannot take. You obviously feel we have a duty to support our colleagues in LIS. That may be so, however legally we cannot. I'm sure the company will be considering their legal position before rostering us to fly.

As for travelling to LIS to operate the flights; it is my earnest wish that it does not come to that. I have no desire to be involved in a dispute between my company and a group of pilots from another base on another contract. To say that to operate the aircraft would be 'beneath contempt' is unfair as not to do so could render me in breach of my contract and therefore vulnerable to dismissal. Who would you expect to support me, the LIS pilots? I think not.

[kungfu panda]

What is the view of BALPA and the company Reps with regard to its members being asked to fly the aircraft normally operated by the lisbon based Pilots?

[gorter]

If you were an easyjet pilot and a member you would have received a newsletter a few days ago from the CC.

[kungfu panda]

Gorter thanks for your sarcasm but this is a public thread. I was asking generally what the view of BALPA is with the regard to the strike in Lisbon, I am not asking for any confidential information.

[Lawro]

A number of pilots took contracts at Lisbon to jump the Command queue leaving guys who would not settle for inferior contracts in the right hand seat . Now they've got what they wanted , they're claiming unfair treatment by the company !

If you're willing to sell your soul , you have to live with the consequences ........

[HundredPercentPlease]

What is the view of BALPA and the company Reps with regard to its members being asked to fly the aircraft normally operated by the lisbon based Pilots?


That is not what happens.

UK pilots have to take empty UK based aircraft and operate them in Lisbon. If they are contractually obliged to do so and they refuse, they can be dismissed. Meanwhile the striking pilots are protected by their local laws.

There is more to this, of course, but that has been communicated to the UK pilots directly by BALPA.

[kungfu panda]

OK, so I understand the Captains in Lisbon accepted a lower cost command, and now they are striking to bring their contract back to the company standard. The Pilots in the UK are saying "well you accepted the command with the lower remuneration therefore you should live by the sword and die by the sword".

Wonderful! now the company has achieved exactly what it wants, it has successfully "divided and conquered", that now opens the door to more and more out of seniority, lower cost bases.

I genuinely think that breaking your colleagues and friends strike in Lisbon will seriously backfire on all of you, you will all relinquish the only real power of collective bargaining which you have, Fools!!

[Hipennine]

So, if i understand this argument correctly, some legal strikers(protected by law)/strike supporters are suggesting that some non-strikers (not protected by law) should put themselves in a position of refusing a legitimate instruction (in law) by the company, which has the sanction of dismissal (in law). At some stage the strike ends with victory or otherwise. Some pilots (protected by law) go back to work, while the non-strikers don't go back to work, because they have been legally sacked. Seems like a reasonable request to the non-strikers from the strikers (not) ?

[kungfu panda]

As I have said previously, any Pilot who travels from the UK to operate aircraft out of Lisbon which are normally operated by Lisbon based Pilots in a direct effort to break the strike of their colleagues should be considered as Beneath contempt.

It is clear that there is no such thing as CRM or teamwork in Easy...

[skianyn vannin]

You don't get it do you Kung Fu, no one wants to go from the UK, but if they refuse the company order to go, they will be fired simples. The UK union cannot intervene as secondary industrial action is illegal under UK law.

[kick the tires]

kung fu panda wrote: As I have said previously, any Pilot who travels from the UK to operate aircraft out of Lisbon which are normally operated by Lisbon based Pilots in a direct effort to break the strike of their colleagues should be considered as Beneath contempt.


Kung fu - thought I'd copy this because when you read it and realise what a complete prat you are, you'll want to delete this most ill-informed post!

[captplaystation]

Refusal to accept reality/ failure to react to changing parameters/mindset . . . . call it what you will, but it has been a factor I believe in several approach phase accidents in recent years, not to mention AF over the pond.

If I believe hard enough all is well it will be, I don't have to react to changed circumstances & the fact it isn't well.

kungfu panda , I hope the stubborn refusal to accept reality you display here, is not a trait you take with you when you go to work. :=

[kungfu panda]

Good afternoon Captplay......

I will not change mindset but maybe a change of tone is required.

My view is that in the UK during the 60's and 70's the Unions had too much power, they had control of the Labour party and almost bankrupted the country. Only an IMF bailout prevented that from happening. The Thatcher government stood up to the Unions and defeated them, they changed Laws crippling their power. This was attempt re-dress the balance that had gone to an extreme. Unfortunately in an effort to re-dress the balance we have now gone to the other extreme where employees in the UK have very little power to collectively bargain.

Unfortunately unscrupulous Managements are using this extreme of power which they have obtained in the UK (and Ireland) to dictate terms to employees throughout the EU. This has to be considered unacceptable and the full support of all Pilots should go to those prepared to stand up to these people. Currently those Pilots are the Easyjet Lisbon based crews.

[captplaystation]

I am 100% in agreement with your summary, and conclusion.

Regretably "the full support" of the UK pilots is completely neutered by that same legislation you (we ) are against.

That ,unfortunately, is the fact of the matter, and it is difficult, nay impossible, for a UK employee to contribute much "meaningful" support.

[kungfu panda]

Frustratingly you maybe right.

I am not sure if refusal to travel from your factory in the UK to operate equipment in a factory in Portugal would be considered secondary action?

[stiglet]

kungfu panda - I don't think you understand the setup with easyJet. There is easyJet and easySwizz. At present we operate different nationally registered a/c under different AOC's; we cannot fly each others a/c and we cannot operate together. We have different contracts. However we would refer to ourselves as colleagues.

Within easyJet we operate UK registered a/c from a number of different EU countries. We all fly the same a/c, we train together and we can fly together, however we have different contracts (different pay, leave, days off, pensions etc). We are all free to request base transfers and when we move we go onto the local contract irrespective of our nationality. When FO's come up for their command the base on offer may not be the same depending on the vacancy; it is up to them to accept the command and move or remain as an FO at their base of choice. Some bases are considered to have superior T&C; untimately it is the whole package (permanent contract, command, location) and so the decision is very subjective. easyJet would prefer to promote from within so when LIS was started those FO's coming up for command were offerred the command in LIS or to remain as FO's at their base until the next command vacancies arose. The local contracts on offer were lower than all the other contracts (a point well discussed on other topics on this forum). Some FO's chose not to accept the promotion and wait for the command at whatever base came up next, normally LGW, others chose the promotion at LIS; hence the view that some jumped the command list. As there were insufficient volunteers their were also direct entry fixed term contracts at LIS.

The base is now permanent so new/ammended contracts are being negotiated. Some of those commands want to transfer to other bases while the FO's who opted not to take the command may still be FO's; the fixed term contracts want a straight transition to permanent contracts without going though another interview, there may be other issues.

That brings us to where we are now. Whatever the situation in LIS as to the rights or wrongs of the pilots or company is not yet clearly understood by most of us on this forum. You are advocating we should support the strike of our colleagues in LIS purley because we are pilots, irrespetive of the law and our contracts or who is right or wrong. It has been clearly explained to you that we cannot refuse duties without jeopardising our positions. Some of us are uncomfortable at the prospect of operating whilst the LIS pilots are on strike and others are sympathetic but are objecting to the dates as it will interfer with their Christmas. So you see this is not as straightforward as you seem to think.

[stiglet]

kungfu panda - some of us in the UK are happy with the status quo we have now and we see the unions on the continent as having too much power. It is of note that most who are objecting to our lack of action in this matter are not UK based. Perhaps somewhere inbetween would be ideal but we are where we are today with what we can do.

[kungfu panda]

Thanks Stiglet, I appreciate your thorough and clear explanation.:ok:

[Narrow Runway]

How would operating in LIS "interfere with Christmas"?

If you're on duty, your Christmas is not yours to have anyway.

If you're not on duty and decide to answer your phone, in order to work on days off, that is a different matter altogether.

In the latter example, you need to have really good reasons to break a strike, whilst working on days off over Christmas.

[stiglet]

Narrow Runway - because your roster may have you working between 24 Dec and 26 Dec, that may be STBY or flights. easyJet operate very few flights throughout the network on Christmas Day . Historically, if you're UK based, you would more than likely be stood down from the Christmas Day STBY on 24th. With the strike dates being called on 24th and 26th there is a distinct possibility that some may spend their Christmas in LIS at short notice. Nothwithstanding any contingency plans the company may consider. Noone is talking about any easyJet crews volunteering to operate on days off.

I take your point that if you have a rostered duty, even if it be STBY on Christmas Day when there are no flights planned at your base, you still have a rostered duty and therefore Christmas Day is not your own. Nonetheless, particularly if you have young children it is going to be a significant disruption and disappointment to you and your family and this is the prospect many fear. The issue is that to be called to do a rescue flight is unfortunate but this is a deliberate choice of dates which some feel is poorly thoughtout and inappropriate as it may alienate your colleagues, others feel it will send the strongest signal to the company; the debate goes on.

[stiglet]

No one is relishing this confrontation; not the company, not the LIS crews and not the crews called to operate.

One thing is for sure the company wont let the passengers suffer; one way or another the flights will operate.

The issues between the LIS crews and the company will be resolved. The bad feeling between crew called to operate over Christmas and the striking LIS crews will take a lot longer to mend. 'Divide and Rule' who's responsible this time!

[JW411]

In 1989 vitually all of the Australian pilots went on strike.

I was working for an airline with a strong Australian heritage in Europe.

I was, at the time, the Pilots' Representative.

I was rung up (on what used to be called a telephone) by the (Australian) boss at headquarters in UK. He wanted us to send six pilots to Australia to fly the Australian-registered aircraft and did I have any comments.

I said that I would not have any problem with them taking a couple of G-registered aircraft to Australia to work on a wet-lease. (wet-lease costs a lot of money and, historically, has hastened the return to the negotiating table by the employer). (In fact, Dan and Britannia sent a lot of aircraft and crews down there).

However, I was totally against six of our pilots going out to Australia to sit in the pilot's seat of an Australian-registered aeroplane.

I managed to dissuade the first six volunteers.

Really, all I had do was ask them how they would feel if a bunch of Australians turned up at the front gate to fly our aircraft.

However, I am ashamed to say that another six went out there and sat in Australian VH-registered seats.

I don't particularly like the scab word but this was as close as I can ever get to it.

So, let us get back to EZY LIS. Are the Lisbon aircraft CS-registered or G-registered?

That really is the crunch point. If they are all G-registered aircraft then the LIS crews cannot surely object to a UK-based crew flying the G-registered aircraft?

Likewise, the UK crew would be on very shaky grounds if they didn't get down there and do what they were rostered to do, however unpleasant the prospect may be.

[Ancient Observer]

For the UK pilots, the law is as it is. No sympathy strikes, and no refusal to carry out a legitimate request.

However, some one implied this is Tory Law. it's not. It is Blair/Brown Labour's law.

[JW411]

---Exactly---

[kungfu panda]

JW411- Your first assertions were correct. It is irrelevant whether the aircraft are registered in Portugal or in the UK these days because the EU allows the use of flags of convenience. The Irish and UK register are popular. It will be devastating for the striking Pilots to see the Aircraft they normally fly being operated by BALPA guys.

[viking767]

I would certainly hope that no one would volunteer to fly trips that were supposed to be flown by pilots on strike.
That would be performing struck work and whoever does so would be a scab in any book.

[EpsilonVaz]

I would certainly hope that no one would volunteer to fly trips that were supposed to be flown by pilots on strike.
That would be performing struck work and whoever does so would be a scab in any book.


But it's not that simple, is it?


I'm on SBY over the Christmas period, I don't really hold Christmas as that important to me. However, I know that a lot of my colleagues do, they have children and families.


So would I volunteer knowing that I could potentially save someone from missing their Christmas? Of course I would.

[kungfu panda]

EpsilonVaz- To me, that you would volunteer is shocking and awful.

[kick the tires]

John_smith

I think the best thing is to ignore kungfu panda, as you rightly say he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Mischief making at its worst!

Nice gesture EpsilonVaz.

[kungfu panda]

I understand the position of the UK based Pilots, if they are required by law to perform a duty which breaks the strike of colleagues. Pilots would not go on strike unless they felt that it was absolutely the final resort to achieve a fair solution.

To volunteer to break the strike of your colleagues is not a nice gesture.

I know that I am taking a lot of heat for my position but so be it. I also understand that my knowledge of Easyjet is limited but that does not prevent me having a view on Pilots breaking others Pilots industrial action.

It isn't mischief making it is expression of opinion.

[kriskross]

Why can't people understand that under UK law you cannot refuse to do what the Company rosters you for just because you may be strike breaking - that is secondary action which is illegal. To refuse would be to open you up to dismissal and also financial proceedings against the individual and also the union if that is what is proposed. If ALL EZY pilots refused then possibly some effect would occur - a complete new set of pilots under even better ( for the Company ) terms, albeit after a huge amount of disruption and shut down. I bet the Company would find pilots willing to come in at short notice on those terms.

Much as sympathy may be felt to our colleagues on much reduced terms, very few are going to put their own livelihood and their families at risk are they?

Not directly replying to Kungfu's last post!!

[beachbumflyer]

UK pilots can always call in sick.

Kriskross, with that kind of thinking pilot unions would have never been created.
There is no excuse for breaking a strike of fellow pilots.

This is a good oportunity for all easy pilots to unite and fight, yes fight, for a companywide contract with the same T&C's at all the bases.
It's up to you guys.

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

I think you have misunderstood EpsilonVaz's post.

I work on a UK Contract. If BALPA vote on a strike in accordance with UK law, i would down tools and stand on the picket line without hesitation.

If a pilot on a Portuguese contract decides to strike, I, as stated clearly by others before me, have no mandate to join in that strike action as my union has not had a ballot on strike action and therefore I cannot go on strike under my UK contract.

Therefore, If my company call me out on Dec 23rd to go LIS to operate a flight on the 24th and night stop, I have no option but to comply with their instructions as this dispute is in a different country. If this situation were reversed, however, I would find it very hard to endorse the action as I know that the only people to be absolutely screwed over would be my colleagues.

What epsilonVaz is stating is that if I was called out to operate and therefore miss Christmas day with my children, EpsilonVaz would be willing to operate instead of me and therefore their actions are absolutely to be commended as I would not have another legal option.

Anybody who can not see the obstacles that crews based in another country on a different contract face does not have anything to contribute to this discussion:=

BTW I am on days off over XMAS for the first time in 5 years so this does not affect me directly but I am concerned for those crews that are on SBY!!

[kungfu panda]

Well I am going to contribute to this conversation even if I am an unwelcome guest.

As I said previously I do understand the position of the UK based Pilots, but if they are required to strike break by Law they still need to be seen to take action. In my view (which I understand is not popular amongst the readers here), BALPA need to write to Easy management stating clearly that asking its members to travel to Lisbon in direct action to break a strike is a reprehensible request, which will effect good CRM for years to come, and that the requirement to do so is forced by a law which is not fit for purpose.

Easy management use the "Management friendly" laws of the UK to dictate terms to its Pilots therefore it is entirely understandable that Pilots based abroad should use local Labour Friendly laws in their negotiation for a fair contract.

[caulfield]

It doesnt surprise me that this sort of thing goes on in today's airlines,especially a disreputable one like easyjet that has pay-to-fly and divide and rule mentality.BTW,I'm a Brit and was flying when this sort of thing couldnt happen.The strike would have been called by the union in the name of all crews,not just those crews in one base,thus negating the very convenient secondary action clause that the UK pilots are using to look the other way.That is classic divide and rule.I see it as a sign of the times,a sort of microcosm of what is rotten in the airline industry as a whole.
I'm not a big union guy,never have been even when they were functional.But when a thing is wrong,then the union is a very important part of any employment dispute,whatever sector.Everything in moderation I say.We dont want to return to the 70's and see unions crippling the economy,but neither do we want the immorality of what is being allowed to happen here.

[Lawro]

Panda is correct in that Balpa should be protecting its members & not giving them the half baked hand out it has produced which states something along the lines of UK pilots can not decline a duty rostered in Lisbon but if an individual feels 'bullied' they should contact the Duty Pilot . Hell did we pay 1% of our salary for that kind of protection !?I discussed the problems with the easy CC over two years ago regarding differing Unions across the network but Balpa is so frightened of loosing any of it's grip on the UK pilots that it was & still is unwilling to enter into discussions regarding a pan company Union agreement . It was highlighted that this would only play into company hands as we are now seeing & which will get worse in the future.


You should contact your Balpa reps & demand better informed legal protection which is what you pay for , the money should not be used to pay for Balpa CC's expensive lunches & the dog walkers one of the CC's claims expenses for whilst he's on Union duties !

[Hipennine]

"We dont want to return to the 70's and see unions crippling the economy"

What if the action in Lisbon is a return to this ?

You are arguing with contradictory value judgements - some union action is bad, we don't want that, but if there's some union action everybody should support it????????

[HundredPercentPlease]

a disreputable one like easyjet that has pay-to-fly

Never got to read the rest of your post. If you write utter drivel like this, then I can only assume that the rest of your message is similarly "factually challenged". I would suggest getting your facts right if you want to make a point.

Well I am going to contribute to this conversation even if I am an unwelcome guest.

Not unwelcome, just unwilling to understand the law.

As I said previously I do understand the position of the UK based Pilots, but if they are required to strike break by Law they still need to be seen to take action. In my view (which I understand is not popular amongst the readers here), BALPA need to write to Easy management

It seems you just don't get it.

The law and the contract are quite clear. You have to go, and no secondary industrial action is allowed. Industrial action includes sick-outs and work to rule. Secondary action can leave both the pilot and the union liable to damages and dismissal.

So, you write that we should be seen "to take action".

No union will deliberately expose themselves to damages. No pilot will expose himself to dismissal and damages. Do you get that?

No, I thought not. Cue another post saying that the UK pilots should take action. :ugh:

[kungfu panda]

Thanks for your post Caulfield, it took the heat off of me for about 5 minutes.

John Smith- Does everything represent secondary action to you, even expressing disagreement with Easy Management or or distain for their efforts to break the strike, are you going to be taken to court for having an opinion?

John I think that you are Easyjet Management or a Shady associate that does not want to see any support for reasonable collective Bargaining.

As for going back to the 70's, don't make me laugh, the polar opposite situation exists now. We are made to believe by John that even disagreeing with the company is illegal and any expression of disagreement will have us in very hot water.

Good on the guys in Portugal, leaflet the passengers, make the situation clear that UK law is being used to defeat their Justified collective action.

[HundredPercentPlease]

KP, let me have a go at writing that leaflet.

Dear passenger,

We, the British pilots based in Portugal, plan to disrupt your travel by striking over Christmas. The reason for the strike is that we were promised that we only had to do 2 years in this place, but now our managers are telling us it has to be more before we can escape back to our beloved homeland.

It is with regret that we have to tell you that your flights will be legally operated by UK crews on UK aircraft, and in fact you will suffer no disruption at all to your Christmas travel. Not even a 10 minute delay. The pro-employer UK laws make it impossible for UK crews to refuse these duties.

We invite you to join our plight to get out of this dump and back to the UK by, er, by....


KP, sorry, maybe you could finish the leaflet for me.

[dudubrdx]

Why don't EZY call in the french contract pilots? Not a single one has been contacted for this?

[stiglet]

I don't believe easyJet have contacted any individual other than those involved in LIS over this. Why should they?

The negotiations may or may not continue; the strikes may or may not go ahead and others may or may not be called upon to operate over any disruption. Except for the inconvenience it has nothing to do with anyone else. In many ways we are one company in name only because of the different contracts we operate under. For those of you outside this situation it may be easyier to understand our predicament if you saw the different factions (UK, Portugal, Italy, France, Germany) as completely different entities. For example should UK easyJet pilots support industrial action on behalf or BA pilots or visa versa, no.

I fear there are a number of contributors on this forum who are not employed by easyJet anywhere who have a vested interest in stirring up as much trouble as they can. There may be some temporary, localised industrial unrest in the company at the moment but it is still arguably one of the most desired airlines in the world to be employed by at the moment; hence the amount of applications from pilots.

[captplaystation]

I doubt if anyone could level the accusation of being "Pro American" in my direction, however, it is good to see that the Unions there portray "secondary action" as "calling a spade a spade" rather than some subversive attempt to dismantle capitalism.

Then again, it could be good old-fashioned protectionism. :hmm:

Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA)2013-12-17 22:30:00

ALPA to U.S. Government: Reject Norwegian Air’s Evasive Scheme


The Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA) today called for the U.S.
Department of Transportation (DOT) to immediately reject Norwegian Air
International’s (NAI) foreign air carrier permit application because the
company appears to be attempting to evade its national laws and
regulations to compete unfairly against U.S. airlines and their
employees. The call came in an answer that ALPA filed in response to
NAI’s application.


“Norwegian Air International was clearly designed to attempt to dodge
laws and regulations, starting a race to the bottom on labor and working
conditions,” said Capt. Lee Moak, ALPA’s president. “If successful, the
company would gain a serious and unfair economic advantage over U.S.
airlines in the competition for the business of international passengers
flying to and from the United States. This exploitation of the laws
intended to prevent labor law shopping cannot be allowed to stand.”


While Norwegian citizens control NAI, which is a subsidiary of Norwegian
Air Shuttle (NAS), the company uses aircraft registered in Ireland and
has applied for an air operator certificate from that country. It
appears that its flight crews will work under individual employment
contracts that are governed by Singapore law and that have wages and
working conditions substantially inferior to those of NAS’s Norway-based
pilots.


“If NAS is permitted to pick and choose the countries in which it
establishes its subsidiaries and employs its flight crews, U.S. carriers
will be put at a severe competitive disadvantage because the United
States has one set of laws and regulations for all of its airlines,”
said Capt. Moak. “The U.S.-EU air services agreement was never intended
to allow this type of scheme, which games the system for competitive
economic advantages.”


ALPA maintains that the NAI scheme raises the specter of the “flag of
convenience” business practice that undermined the U.S. maritime
industry by allowing a vessel to be registered in a country different
from its ownership and apply the country of registry’s laws to its
operations. The practice precipitated the decline of the industry and
the loss of tens of thousands of U.S. maritime jobs as companies flew
the flag of countries with the weakest labor and tax laws and
regulations.


Moak noted a quote by the AFL-CIO’s Transportation Trades Department in
an opinion piece published today by Aviation Daily: “We must
reject business models premised on scouring the globe for cheap labor no
matter the consequences, and not pretend this is somehow acceptable
competitive behavior.”


“The NAI scheme must be immediately and unequivocally rejected,” said
Moak. “The DOT must not permit U.S. airlines and their employees to face
an unfair competitive disadvantage from this runaway shop and swiftly
dismiss NAI’s air carrier permit application.”


Moak also called on the Irish government to reject NAI’s attempt to
register the aircraft in Ireland. “Ireland should not allow itself to be
complicit in NAI’s avoidance scheme,” he concluded.


Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union, representing
nearly 50,000 pilots at 32 airlines in the United States and Canada.
Visit the ALPA website at Air Line Pilots Association, International (http://www.alpa.org).

[SR71]

Correct CaptPlayStation. Well done ALPA.

For John Smith and 100%, lets put it this way...

Do you, or do you not think that using UK based pilots to break a legitimate Portugese pilot dispute is a good idea in the grand scheme of things?

If the latter, cognisant of the law with respect to secondary action, what do you think the solution to the problem is?

BALPA absolutely should lobby for a change in the law with respect to the type of multi-jurisdictional issues airlines are now using to their advantage, because the law was conceived well before a time when these issues were a problem.

In just the same way they are lobbying/continuing to lobby for changes/review of the new FTL legislation whose inception was a complete fiasco....

[kungfu panda]

SR71 and Captplay.....:D

I was clearly sciving when articulation was being handed out... Thank you..

Let me just add my disappointment that UK and Irish based Pilots are allowing their political motivations to drive Captain salaries rapidly toward those of London underground train drivers, am I wrong, don't Jet aircraft Captains have significantly more responsibility and Skill. It should not be just a question of supply and demand.

If it wasn't for those political motivations we would have a stronger bargaining position than the train drivers.

[deltahotel]

This from unionhistory.info

"Between 1980 and 1993 there were six Acts of Parliament which increasingly restricted unions' ability to undertake lawful industrial action. Secondary action, better known as 'sympathy strikes', was outlawed and picketing was restricted. Ballots were needed for official industrial action from 1984 and these had to be postal from 1993. Although unions have learned to use ballots as part of the negotiating process, they have imposed increasing financial costs, while the requirement to give employers seven days' notice further reduced unions' ability to respond quickly and potentially reduced the effectiveness of any action they took."

By the end of the seventies the pendulum was well and truly on the side of unions and the workforce. Did it then swing too far the other way? Possibly. Will it swing back? Given that no elected party has had this in a manifesto since then, unlikely for the forseeable future. Even the socialist (?) government with strong majorities between 1997-2010 wouldn't go there.

Should the TUC and/or individual unions (eg BALPA) campaign for a change in the law? Possibly, but my guess is that there is no political will in the parties that may form a government.

So....we are where we are, the laws on industrial action by uk workers and unions are very clear: https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes

It can't be wished away, much as some would like to.

[kungfu panda]

Is it secondary action to refuse to travel to somebody elses place of work and operate their equipment?

I understand that it is not as simple as that but I would be interested to hear balanced views on the law in this regard.

[highflyer40]

in a word panda, yes

[SR71]

It can't be wished away, much as some would like to.

In a word, derisory, but nevertheless, represents the spirit of the age.

Thank God the abolitionists weren't of the same fortitude.

Increasingly, the law will come under pressure as it is found to be unreasonable and out of date for the society we find ourselves living in. Some prefer to be at the cusp of change, others, often comfortable with their lot, ride it out from the sidelines.

One often wonders why Doctors have managed to protect their T&C's in a way Pilots have not over the last 30 years. One of the major reasons must be that Doctors tend to enter their profession with a desire to look beyond themselves and care for others. Pilots, on the other hand, pursue a selfish interest to, slip the surly bonds. We just like flying.

Not unsurprisingly then, that selflessness on the part of Doctors has made sure that, collectively, as a group, their representation remains extremely strong. Because they look after each other.

Maybe if more of us stood up to be counted, we'd make a difference.

[highflyer40]

that's just :mad:. Doctors have good T&C's because there is a shortage. there are no out of work doctors, more posts that can't be filled due to no staff.

I so think this is one of the MAIN problems with pilots today (or should I say the pilots of yesterday) they compare themselves to Doctors.

and you don't know doctors very well if you think they look after each other you won't find a group that back stabs and manipulates better than they do, ok well maybe pilots are better at that than doctors.

[deltahotel]

SR71. Not derisory, just true.

[captplaystation]

Was replying to kungfu pandas objection (which he has removed, so edited to say ) . . . if people hadn't been so willing to throw their own money at funding not only their licence, but their type rating to boot, there would be, if not a shortage, at least not an excess. . . as airlines wouldn't train too many pilots at their own expense just to keep the salaries down by virtue of "creating" too many candidates.

Sorry to say, but this rot has , at its roots, SSTR & P2F & the mentality that has continued thereafter.

If you were a "valued commodity" (I.E in plain language you cost the company some money) you wouldn't be dicked around with.

The last 10-15 years has seen individuals self-financing, to the ridiculous extent that we eventually arrived at the ultimate "bad joke" of paying to do "extended line operations". . . what, really, does the profession expect/imagine we command in the way of respect ,when all & sundry were willing to prostitute themselves to jump the Q regardless of experience/ability.

The current situation had the seeds sown by the imbeciles from the "want it & WANT IT NOW ! " generation who believed that seniority/meritocracy was best replaced by ability to pay.

Unfortunately, ALL of us in this industry are reaping the benefits of their ill founded short term mentality.

As for back-stabbing. . . well you know the old joke "more loyalty/fraternity to be found in a Bordelo" only problem . . it isn't a joke.

It seems many LIS crew may have accepted cr@p to jump the Q . . .sounds familiar ? if that is the case, well, I hope you are subsequently able to repair the (self inflicted) damage caused by accepting T's & C's that were "below par".

Whilst I broadly accept that we should all stick together, if one group struck out alone for self-serving reasons, should they expect the others to rally to their aid when they finally choose to realise they sold themselves a lemon ?

I don't know the exact history of the LIS base, but it seems that some went into it with their eyes open (in one respect) but with no imagination vis a vis "half-promises" of what would "possibly" transpire in the future.

In spite of all this I wish them well, but I guess they should also accept, that it was their hand that put the signature on whatever crummy contract they now hold in their hand.

I think the only point that has any merit in a Doctor/Pilot comparison, is that (to the best of my knowledge) you cannot (well at least not in Europe AFAIK) go from zero to doctor & gain employment as a Doc purely by self financing. . . however, I stand willing to be proven wrong on that score too, as nowadays ? ? :ugh: who knows.

[SR71]

SR71. Not derisory, just true.

I see what you did there.

that's just ****. Doctors have good T&C's because there is a shortage. there are no out of work doctors, more posts that can't be filled due to no staff.

Supply & Demand huh? P2F/SSTR?

Only serves to demonstrate my point. There is an excess of selfish pilots in the world when compared to selfless Doctors. After all, who wants to study for 7+ years (more like all your life) when you can command the "same" salary in 1.5? From whence does that rhetoric arise?

I'm sure there are all kinds of reason why the professional pay of Doctors and Pilots has diverged over the years.

Pilots exist along an employment continuum. Senior pilots were behind much of the UK SSTR/P2F malaise.

The UK prohibition against Secondary action seems convenient to some posters here. But you can guarantee, if you're content to sit back and watch from the sidelines, things will only get worse. I can't quite conceive of how that might make things better, can you?

PS:
I only went to University for 7 years.

[WHYEYEMAN]

You need to be a hell of a lot brighter to become a doctor than you do to become a pilot. Medicine is an incredibly academic field. That's not to say pilots are all dumber than doctors. To get into the LHS of a UK airline, you will obviously have to display a high level of skill and intelligence. However, to get to study medicine in the UK you need pretty much straight A's in heavyweight A level subjects. This ensures a high likelihood of success during the subsequent 7 years of intense study. This is not the case for pilots. Thank ****!

Back to the subject in hand. Striking over XMAS so your colleagues have to miss their family Xmas is a crap idea.

[wiggy]

I realise reading this text might a bit of a challenge for us dumb pilots :mad:, but here's a bit of light background reading about the state of play in Europe, and why under the present rule set any attempt at cross border Industrial Action is usually fecked:


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/201107/20110718ATT24274/20110718ATT24274EN.pdf

Section 3, the Laval-quartet, probably best illustrates where we are now legally, like it or not (I don't).

BALPA does get a mention, section 5.2 - at least they have been asking questions

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Actually I think the reason that there is no Pay to Butcher is because not many of the general public would happily go under the scalpel of the latest rich kid wannabe surgeon. Certainly nobody that I know would anyway.

However, they appear to be more accepting of the flying version of PtB. Why? Knowledge, or lack thereof, of the risks involved. Maybe.

So who's really to blame for the current state of this industry? Rich kids, the airlines, the demanding public? All three.

Certainly not those of us who have been speaking out against P2F since it's inception. Should we help those of you who were happy to jump the queue and contribute to the slide, regardless of legality, because you didn't listen before? Or is it your hole to get yourself out of? Should I just look after my own affairs because you've nadgered the industry?

[Narrow Runway]

CAE PARC today looking for DEC easyJet LIS base.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Starting Christmas Eve????

[Narrow Runway]

Yeah, failing that, April 1st I'm told.

[macdo]

Back in the late 70's when I left school if you wanted to be a doctor or a pilot the barrier to entry to these occupations was about equal, controlled by high academic requirements in the case of doctors and scarcity of opportunity for pilots. (P2F effectively still then existed in a minor way as the old self improver route via instructing. You had to have a substantial amount of money to learn to fly in the first place, followed on by paying for the various tests and exams along the way.) What changed was the 'scarcity of opportunity' in aviation and the explosion of flying jobs available first in Europe, now worldwide. If you look at today's school leavers the barriers to becoming a doctor are still largely academic. (Anyone who questions this should have a quick look at the BMAT and UK CAT tests required by many UK Med Schools, they are seriously challenging.) The academic barriers for pilots were 3 decent A Levels (the modern equivalent is a half reasonable degree), but what has changed is the surplus of people having access to huge lines of wealth or credit. So moderate academic requirements + ample availability of money = over supply of qualified candidates. Result continuous lowering of Reward.
Largely, I think the complaint that we have lost pay parity with the medics has been overstated. If you look at pay rates for Consultants/Registrars/etc down to 1st Year Post Grad doctors there is reasonable parity with Training Capts/ Line Capt/ Fo's in a legacy carrier. This diverges downwards if you take in the fixed pay rates offered by many LoCo's, but there are similar downward pressures on many of the less glamorous medical positions. Even the hardships of being a P2F cadet for a couple of years can be financially balanced by the 5 years a med student spends not earning and the 2 post grad years of poor pay.
The one big difference I can see is that the Medical Profession have been much better at working as a cohesive unit to maintain their Terms and Conditions at an appropriate level. Mainly this is achieved because there has always been a scarcity of supply of doctors with an ever increasing demand, but it would be interesting to observe how T&C's would change if the high academic barriers were lowered and Pay 2 Doctor was invented. I suspect the results would mirror our own predicament very quickly.

[kungfu panda]

My worry is not pay parity with Doctors it is that highly experienced and skilled Captains in Europe have pay on a downward trajectory rapidly approaching London Underground Train operators. I am sure LOCO Captains work harder, have fewer benefits and I have no doubt within 10 years their pay will be below Train drivers.

Is it the high educational requirements? or are the train drivers just more unified?

[Deep and fast]

Actually I think the reason that there is no Pay to Butcher is because not many of the general public would happily go under the scalpel of the latest rich kid wannabe surgeon. Certainly nobody that I know would anyway.

However, they appear to be more accepting of the flying version of PtB. Why? Knowledge, or lack thereof, of the risks involved. Maybe.

Standard CRM stuff, a group is more likely to do something risky than an individual.

Nothing will change all the time there are 0 hour wonder kids willing to work for French fries. In my view this airline career path is dead. Accountants have seen the light, woken up and smelt the coffee and will fight tooth and nail to keep salaries down so not the effect the bottom line for share holders.

If you want change the only way is what the Lisbon guys are doing, period!

I hate unions, but this is what it's come to. Planes stop flying and profits stop coming and the company will start talking.

[WhyByFlier]

You guys are putting doctors on WAAAAY too much of a pedestal.

Several medical schools in the UK, I hate to break it to you, are accepting people with 3 Cs at A level because they are deemed underprivileged:

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Doctors qualify on access degree (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6252656.stm)

Another dreadful one for it is that St Georges in Tooting. I also personally know of several people who have bypassed the standard school leaving process and gone into medicine as a 'mature student' - don't need much in the way of grades for that - just need the:

Foundation/pre-clinical year - Courses - Students - Medical Schools Council (http://www.medschools.ac.uk/Students/Courses/Pages/FoundationPre-clinicalyear.aspx)

I can think of about 6 doctors I know that are 'junior doctors' (two who begun as mature students) - In the most part they can't look after themselves - they're pasty, eat appallingly, don't exercise, have zero social skills and seem to just watch things at 'work' rather than do anything - which they will freely admit. They vacillate on 8 month placements in paediatrics etc. What they can do is lock themselves in a room and learn a book. Smashing. Speaking to family friends that are consultants they say the job is mind numbing - it's generally very routine with the same 'spikes' of difficulty that we have in our field.

Anyone who has qualified as an airline pilot will tell you that there is a huge amount of practical assessment early on in the training and career - non stop progress checks. A practical assessment isn't like theoretical assessment - it wasn't until I'd completed pilot training that I realised how easily theory exams are.


Then there's the fact that if a doctor screws up he or she kills one person. If we screw up we kill a lot more. If the doctor screws up they don't take their lives with them. If we screw up, we have it in the back of our minds that we too will die! Just because, with experience, this job can seem a breeze does not mean it is a breeze - that's why we ARE paid well - because we have experience and capacity to perform the job well inside an acceptable tolerance.

All of that said - I agree there needs to be far more filtration as to who can join this industry and who can not. No quotas, no short of bums on seats for courses, no who can afford it - just meritocracy and profile fit.

[WhyByFlier]

……And if our job is so easy to do and requires little in the way of anything - I do hope all crews flying into LGW this afternoon relish the G55 crosswind right across the runway. You'll earn your money as PF or PNF.

[kick the tires]

You'll earn a P45 if you land outside the aircraft limits of gusts 38!

[macdo]

WhyByFlier
Trust me, from bitter experience, a pedestal is the last place I'd put several doctors that I have had the mis-fortune to run across!
The Access/Foundation routes to Medicine you quote aren't really representative of the mainstream route to medicine. (By coincidence, I know someone on one, who has a degree in Fine Art, go figure...). What I can say is that I have done entry exams/tests/interviews for several 'difficult to get into' airlines and there is no way in the world that they were as "academically " challenging as the requirements to get even an interview for somewhere like Imperial or Barts. Not by a country mile.

The argument that we will end up on Train Driver salaries isn't up to much either, see here
Trainee Train Driver - Pay And Conditions For UK Train Drivers (http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Train-Driver-Pay-and-Conditions.html)

I know there are loads of PTF on a lot less, let alone TProp FO's, but the fact remains with luck and hard work, a command in a decent airline puts you way over this and in many cases closer to Junior Consultant Doctor pay.

The undoubted erosion of our pay is, IMHO, mainly due to oversupply of pilots, particularly those well heeled enough to take the P2F route and survive the first few years. Also, we are an independent minded lot and are often reluctant to join or participate in Union activities. If we were all 100% represented by our national unions, they would negotiate from a position of strength and things would not have got so out of hand.

Lastly, I don't think anyone on here thinks that a Pilots job is easy. I feel that I have well earned my salary after that 38kt xwind landing.:eek:
But there are very many occupations that are not easy for many reasons, that are remunerated much more modestly than our own.

[girlpower]

Whybyflier has a massive chip on his/her shoulder as he thinks the sun shines out from behind having gone to ctc. Keep on bragging about how good you are flying your a320 as a new fo. Only takes one slip up to bring you mentally down to earth with all your actual pic experience.

:yuk:

[drivez]

We can talk about making our profession competitive again, but the day flying training became a business was the day that died. Particularly in the last few years if the schools were asking for good aptitude scores, rigorous academic standards and a personality then they would have had very few candidates, because you already have a small pool due to the financial barriers.

It's supply and demand. And it's in the schools interest and the airlines interest to keep supply high.

I think anyone who has graduated in the past 10 years will know of at least 4/5 people who have no business being anywhere near a toy aircraft never mind a 320. Yet they threw money at the problem when they failed things. It's these same people who then throw money into type ratings and get jobs flying A320's.

(No that's not a generalisation that anyone who pays for a tr is a bad pilot or fits that profile, but still) sorry for thread drift.

[WhyByFlier]

Whybyflier has a massive chip on his/her shoulder as he thinks the sun shines out from behind having gone to ctc. Keep on bragging about how good you are flying your a320 as a new fo. Only takes one slip up to bring you mentally down to earth with all your actual pic experience.

I probably couldn't have less of a chip on my shoulder regarding this industry if I tried. I would hardly say that 4.5 years as an airline pilot and 3500 hours on the A320 makes me 'new' but I agree I still have a lot to experience and learn. I'm sorry my posts have offended you so much! Merry Christmas - I hope you get some tampons in your stocking!

[macdo]

Sadly, I think, by your last comment, you proved her point. Shame.
Happy Christmas.

[kungfu panda]

WBF.........:ugh:

[WhyByFlier]

Sorry why should I take 'experience' chat from someone who is asking about paying for a type rating with no job offer. Girlpower what is your experience?

[kungfu panda]

Did the strike in Lisbon go-ahead or was there an agreement?

[Dct_Mopas]

It went ahead but was rather overshadowed by the disruption caused at LGW.

[kick the tires]

The share price is where it is because she DOES care!

Why so bitter Cragg?

[WHYEYEMAN]

Crag,

Comments like that only serve to suggest that you are not particularly wise in the ways of the world.

[kick the tires]

Crag is a bit of a troll, an uninformed one at that, who is also showing his bitterness to BA on the Jo'burg thread.

Needs to be ignored.

[landmark1234]

I think there would be more solidarity amongst pilots if one group did not strike at times of the year (eg Xmas) when other pilots would have to cover and be particularly disrupted. If you want to strike then great but:

Don't do it over holiday periods when your colleagues, who are obliged to cover, will have to spend time away from their homes.

Don't just not turn up for work... Picket or at least make some noise outside the Crewroom. Otherwise why should anyone outside the company notice?

[kungfu panda]

landmark1234- I disagree with you about the striking over a holiday period, I think that you have to strike when it has the most effect on the company. I do not think that you need consider strike breaching colleagues.

I agree with you about the picketing you need to be in Uniform at the airport (classic Alpa) information picketing other crew members and passengers.

[landmark1234]

Interesting. Once again though, pilots replacing strikers are not strike breakers... If they don't they will get fired. One solution is for picket lines (if allowed) to "intimidate" arriving replacement pilots, thus putting them under undue stress and impair their "mental condition" which makes them unfit to fly under ops A (6.1.10). It's a tough solution but that only one where everyone would be protected.

[highflyer40]

one thing that unions always seem to get wrong is the fact that a strike can not be successful if you don't have the public on your side. one sure way to make sure the public is agaisnt you and for the company is to strike over any holiday period.

[landmark1234]

I agree that you need the public on your side if at all possible and this wont happen if you do it over a holiday. Even if the public is generally not on your side though, the other reasons for not doing it over a holiday period (ie taking UK standby crew away from their homes and families and therefore lessening their sympathies) give another good reason.